Brett Bartholomew stops by the booth to talk shop with Donnie Maib. Brett dives into a plethora of topics that expand the role of performance coaches. He revisits the intricacies and importance of building buy-in, having transparent communication, and having skin in the game. Other subjects that Brett shares his thoughts on include his influencers, the process of writing a book, the governing bodies of certification, marketing in strength & conditioning, adding value to yourself and others, and career evolution. It’s imperative to note that Brett’s principles can be applied far beyond strength & conditioning!
Brett wears many hats as a strength & conditioning coach, best-selling author, philanthropist, and more. His experience includes coaching athletes in the private sector, collegiate field, and in the U.S. Special Forces. Altogether, Brett has coached a wide-range of athletes from youth athletes to Olympians across 23 sports. For more information, visit artofcoaching.com.
- Brett BartholomewStrength and Conditioning Coach, Author, and Philanthropist
- Donnie MaibAssistant Athletics Director for Athletic Performance at the University of Texas at Austin
Welcome to the team behind the team podcast. I am your host, Donny, mate. This is the monthly
show focused on building conversations around the team based model approach to ethic, performance.
Strength, conditioning. Sports Medicine. Sports Science. Mental Health and wellness and
Welcome to the team behind the team podcast. I’m your host, Donny May. Today,
I am super excited about our guests. We have a very special guest. He’s a good friend of mine,
Brett Bartholomew. Brett, how are you doing today, coach? You’re doing awesome, Don. How are you? I’m doing OK.
We have got Brad in the studio today and he is in town speaking
at our clinic. Coach, thank you for coming in. It’s always a pleasure. I want to talk about you just a minute. I know a
lot of your followers may know who you are, but if you have never met or listened
to or followed Brett Bartholomew, he is a guy that you need to make sure you pay attention to.
Brad is not only a keynote speaker. He is a performance coach and consulting
and a best selling author. His book, Conscious Coaching the Art and Science
of Building by N is a number one bestseller in sports coaching on Amazon
and a number one bestseller in business skewering number eight, bestseller in Business and Leadership and Amazon
and a top 100 best seller on Amazon. So if you’ve not read his book, you’ll need to get it. Coach,
we’re excited. You’re on the show. Brad has also worked with a diverse
range of athletes across 23 sports worldwide. At all levels range from youth to
athletes to Olympians. He’s worked with numerous Super Bowl and World Series champions
and other professional fighters in boxing and the UFC.
Coach, how are you doing? What’s going on in your life lately? A baby
clinic, right? And so if I’m a little bit hoarse, that’s because we just went on.
We did a 90 minute talk and then some Q&A and what have you. But yeah, I would say baby business
course and get ready to start coaching back up here again in February. So wide variety. Coach, how
has the whole dad life? How’s it treating these days? I mean, right now, as of while we’re
recording this, I’m only four weeks and he’s a four week old little guy. Azam’s Brands Bronson.
Yep. Not named after Missouri. I’d be in trouble. But Bronson Yeah. And it’s
interesting because, you know, people tend to ask that question a lot and for good reason because being a father can change your
life. But the reality my wife and I kind of feel bad saying this
the main stress has just been adapting to the work side of it. Right. Especially somebody that owns
their own business trying to figure out, okay, now I’ve got even more clearly defined value or boundaries
and what have you. So I think what he has done, what Bronson has done is amplified
my focus on refining things that I already knew to be blindspots, which for me were
you know, I say yes to everything. I always try to help as many folks as I can. And
sometimes I’m not as good with my time management as I should be. And so he just continues
to make you redefine what is a priority, what’s the need for the now and what do you
need to do as opposed to what would be nice to do. So I think that but other than that, I mean, four weeks
in right now, we’re just trying to keep the little guy alive and enjoy every moment with him. Coach, I me I tell you
that as well. We have my wife, I have four daughters. And I remember our first daughter,
Isabelle, when she was born. You look actually very you look amazing. I mean, when my first
daughter came out so sleep deprived on their trucks, you’re there. You just kind of taking it, Heidi, with my beard.
You know, the lines in the face are obscured, not crooks and monsters. And no one can take
the case. Well, congratulations. And Bronson and your
beautiful wife. And I know that’s gonna be a join the line of work. My wife at some point. I know I’m I have to get out there.
And so for those of you listening, you don’t know this. For the last time, coach maybe came out to my neck of the woods.
I got big time. He made no time. I said, hey, you know, you’re not that far from us. Once you come up on, you
train the garage, gym. And he said, you know, coach, sorry. Just not on my agenda and
flew right on out of there. And that’s an example of why you don’t post on me.
But a cool coach. I know we know you well. We love you. Maybe there’s
some people that don’t know your story just to provide context as we get into the
show today. Q Take a moment and just kind of go back and introduce yourself, kind of own
your career. How did you get in this profession, share your journey a little bit, how it’s led
to where you are and what you’re doing right now? Sure. I’ll try to do that without boring everybody. Because a lot of
how I got into it is detailed in my book and that was a lot that was the hardest chapter of the book to write.
So guys, all I’ll keep it short here. Bottom line is I grew up Omaha, Nebraska.
I was a competitive athlete myself, primarily in baseball and football at that age. And, you know, I’d always
loved training ever since the time I saw my first Rocky movie. And, you know, you read your dad’s men at Men’s Health magazine
and you know, so I would do whatever I could from really that standpoint early on. It’s merely just bodybuilding,
right? You’re doing whatever those magazines tell you to do. And, you know, I ended up going to a high school.
My parents split up. They got a divorce. We moved to a different area of town and train three times a day.
And I wasn’t feeling appropriately at that time. I was getting my advice again. I’m 14 years old. It’s not like I know
how to go to pub med and there’s not as many digital resources now as there are for people that want to be
advised on these things. So I’m learning from muscle magazines, right, that say eat low carb,
eat low fat. So like any absolutists, I did both. So you can imagine somebody that’s training like
a mad person and barely eating any calories. I mean, that was based feeding egg beaters, fat free
Kraft singles and turkey bacon for breakfast. I’m just trying to eat as clean as possible or what they deemed clean
at the time through pop media. Yeah. Long story short, Danny, I was hospitalized. I was put in inpatient
eating disorder hospital in Minneapolis, Minnesota, for a year of my life. The reason
for that is I was running around the school one day and blacked out
and I woke up and I was in the doctor’s office and I was told that my heart, kidney and liver were all
experiencing some level of failure or extreme weakness. So I had to be put into
a cardiac arrest ward within that that eating disorder hospital.
They chose that because they felt like, hey, this is the place. It’s going to get the weight back on him. And truth be
told at that point. I mean, that is classified. It was technically anorexia, A.S.
So not otherwise specified. So it wasn’t me not trying to eat to try to get thin or
bingeing and purging, which are classic eating disorder type things. A lot of it was a manifestation of
just OCD depression. Those things were my outlet. So I was put in a hospital
where, you know, 5:30 in the morning you are weighed in the nightgown every day. Your blood
is drawn every day. You have very restricted privileges. The room that we’re in now, which for
those of you that can’t see this, which has all of you imagine just kind of like a smaller living room
or a den and you’re put into an observation room the majority of the day when you’re not eating hospital
approved meals, where you’re under constant surveillance and observation. And they want to make sure
that you’re not fidgeting. They want to make sure that you’re not doing anything to basically burn calories through
non exercise. Thermogenesis. And by the way, I’m talking about license, medical
practitioners, doctors, nurses, psychiatrist, psychiatrist. I mean, this is a ward that in totality
helps people. Right. Very rarely do they focus on the person. You’re kind of a symptom,
coach mayb-. And so you’re starting to hopefully key and on some key things that have influenced me as I started
to get into coaching where guys, frankly, some people lost their lives as a result
of this treatment. People weren’t able to reach them even though they were subject matter experts. So, you know, long
story short, after I did get out of the hospital and that’s detailed in my book, I knew that I
wanted to learn everything I could about rebuilding the human body in the appropriate way, because the hospitals are really
toxic experience. It really didn’t help that much. So got into strength and conditioning
went to Kansas State for kinesiology box competitively, started training other fighters
in exchange for my training. Got my I got an internship at athletes performance,
went back to the University of Nebraska to volunteer because I wanted team setting experience that
led to a masters or a graduate assistantship at Southern Illinois University S.I.U.
Yep. Whereas in charge of about six to seven eight sports total by the end of it and then assisted with
basketball and football. My master’s degree is in motor learning, specifically in attentional focus
and cueing, which is, you know, again, what got me more and more interested in the impact of communication
and the science behind coaching strategy and. Yeah. Then when worked for the pro sports
side of athletes performance for six years, a lot with Special Forces, military, major
minor league baseball, NFL, everything she read off earlier and a couple other stops in between
and then started my own company, Art of Coaching in 2017 and the rest is history. So I’m 33,
going on about 80 for the fifth Aizu. That’s the fastest I’ve ever
tried to go through about, you know, fifteen, sixteen some odd years in my life. So flat and putting. But it Asli.
That’s not that’s that’s impressive. Coach, you’ve definitely you know, the thing that I definitely admire
respect about you, that you’ve been across all kind of different avenues
of sports performance. You know, obviously we’re working in
the college right now on the collegiate. You’ve worked in the collegiate. You’ve been in the private, you’ve been in the pro.
Looking over your resume and career. Would you like. It
was a different aspect, did you like college? Would you like about college? Would you like about the private now
kind of speak to that a little. Yeah. One, I think that having experienced a lot of different things,
first of all, I think it’s a huge misnomer that these are all wildly different from
one another. There are far more similarities and there are differences. You know, I and there were a lot of things
that excuse me, I didn’t believe. So when I when I first transition into the private sector, it wasn’t because
I didn’t like college. It was because I remember applying for two jobs. One had already
been filled by the time I was leaving my GPA. They just kind of did that whole H.R.
thing where they posted it, even though it was filled. And another one I made it to the final rounds for. And then I think
that had strength coach got fired. So then everybody got you know, I needed a job. And so there was a great
opportunity at athletes performance who is doing some really innovative things at the time. And there are a lot of coaches
at work there that had been in the team setting, and they specialize in a lot of movement oriented principles.
And I also knew that I’d get a wide range of being able to work with military youth. I mean, I
just wanted to make myself a weapon early. Like I wanted to get as many different, varied experiences
I as I could as a coach. So I didn’t have a ton of biases or so. At the
very least, I could challenge those biases. But, you know, I remember people tell me, oh, when
you go to the private sector, it’s just personal training. You won’t do that. I mean, coach, six to eight groups a day,
larger groups, you know, like I ran at one point, Tom, an NFL program in Phenix said oftentimes there’s me
and one intern with 30 to 50 people, you know, and I just think that people have to be careful with what they’re
telling coaches out there today because they make it sound like we’re all completely different.
Right. Private sector team pro, it’s like these things are gonna be only it’s just like our differences with people.
You’re only going to find as many differences as you willingly go and seek out. And of course, everybody’s going to do
different variations of red tape. And if you own a facility, you’re going to have overhead that’s expansive. And,
you know, if you work in a university, you may not have to deal with that. You may have some relative security. But
you also, if you don’t want a national title in a couple of years, might be out of there. The pressure. Yeah. Where you
can’t be as public with some of the things that you’d like to do. Right, if you want to help other people because there’s red tape.
I just think that people have to be open to saying like you’d never tell your athletes to specialize early
in their career. I don’t understand why coaches want to do the same. I don’t think those. I’ve
loved them all. We were in the private sector right now. And that being said, I work a lot
with a variety of teams throughout the year, both in consulting and just partnerships. And we’ve
had opportunity go back to the team setting. It just hasn’t been the right fit for us. It has to be a right fit. Now, I know you
made me think of the book. David EPSTEIN just came out with range and you ready?
But he talks about in that book about focus on one area, whether you’re a doctor or a business person,
coach, whatever, that specializing in one thing actually kind of
limits your creativity and your ability to find solutions to answers. Because
at the end of the day, I mean, whether you’re in a private facility, college, pro,
whatever, I mean, we all have problems. We all have a certain limited number of resources.
We have authority structures in place that we off to report through and work through to be successful.
And so, yeah, I totally agree that you definitely want a broad range experience in
coaching social in nature. And so who who right now isn’t dealing with some level of miscommunication
or lack of buy-in or some other kind of asymmetry within, you know, their
environment? I don’t think there’s any coaches out there that have it all figured out. And if they do, that doesn’t last long. And sadly,
it’s tough for me to think that we needed somebody like David EPSTEIN to write a book like that,
that now so many coaches, quote, when inherently they knew this to begin with. Right. It’s something that we all espouse.
But that’s another issue kind of within our field, is we’re more likely to listen to outside authorities
than we are to like listen to each other and really be open about certain things and struggles and strategies.
And that’s got to change long term. I’m curious, just going back when I was listened to you
kind of your your resume and your career journey. You worked with a lot of sports.
What did you ever did? Any of the sport coaches? Did you learn anything from them
having the influence from them in any sports in particular, maybe that, you know, whether it was basketball
or track or anybody that. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you learn from all all sorts of folks.
I remember was somebody that taught me a fair amount of ineptitude that I had at the time was a
golf coach at southern Illinois at the time, I believe his name was Leroy. But don’t quote me on that. It’s been a while.
But I remember he had come down he had come down one time to the weight room and said, I don’t want my golfers unity. Then football lifts.
And I said, well, what do you mean by that? And, you know, of course, he started timeout cleans and squads and snatches and deadlifts
multi joint movements that because of their the fact that some football players do those things that they’re
perceived to be football lifts. Right. He starts tell me that he wants them do step ups
and they want to run two miles several times a week and a wide variety and.
Time. You know, I probably didn’t have the social intelligence that I would have liked to have said that I had and I did what
a lot of strength coaches do as a coach, you understand how these movements, you know,
whether they’re dead less or cleans or what have you can actually improve golf performance. And of course, I drum
up a bunch of research on rate of forced development and driving distance and how it can enhance, you know,
physiological outputs. Right. I thought you and I go up there and you go, son, you think I read these and takes
him and throws him right in the trash, right in front of me. And I’m sitting here and I leave that office thinking he’s the problem.
You know, when I realized later on like that was my approach was trash. And that’s actually why I
don’t really like when people espouse that will start with why I think that’s well-intentioned. But
it doesn’t matter if you have the right why if you don’t understand how to navigate the what and the how, because
how we. And so I always tell people like that’s fine too. I start with y but then
make sure that you really look take a look at Deep Dove in the how so you know, that just taught
me like know your audience. That was the that was that, you know, because there are other times you’re as able to
bring him down and show him exactly what he really wanted to see. Let’s say we’re doing some rotary aspects
at Ball or Kaiser or what have you. And I’d strategically plan it out. So we came down and saw that.
And then he loved it and would let me do whatever he won in the weight room. So good. I know it sounds manipulative.
We’ll get now I’ve got a question for you later on. Hopefully we’ll get to it. But I’m so kind of
part of this show is just the team behind the team in today’s landscape in athletics, specifically
college. I’m sure you see it in private. There’s a shift towards his team
based performance model. How would you describe a team base performance?
What would be your words and what are the well, the positives of that or challenges? Yeah, I mean, a lot of this was stuff
that was inculcated in me at early days of athletes performance. A team based model, whether
private, pro or anything, is just something that is seamlessly integrated where you have no
walls, metaphorical or literal between what different departments are doing so that there is transparent
communication. It’s hard to be a part of a team if everybody’s really scared to share their thoughts or ideas
because of criticism and all those introspection or so. Right. And I mean, there’s some inherent
politics and power dynamics in every organization. I think, again, the mistake that most people in
sport and in sports performance in general make is that our field is somehow unique.
Almost every profession has some level of integration that they have to manage and navigate. And
I just think that what we have to deal with is everybody feels like there’s so much on the line with athlete,
player, health, wellness, safety, their own jobs, all that that it makes people button
up. And so we oftentimes pay homage to a team based approach or
not being siloed. And in reality, a lot of it has been lip service. People aren’t doing as much of
it as they should in the way that they should. So I think it’s just transparency, not being afraid to be
wrong and not being afraid to give ground to gain ground and understanding that like, you know, it’s a level
of complexity. It’s not about one person or one department’s agenda. It’s about how it’s all got
to fit into really set the athlete and the individuals that we’re meant to serve out her success.
Yeah, that’s good. I like I like the way you said that right there. I think you made me think about when I was in Australia
a little over a year ago, and I’ve shared this before. But just seeing there, I think with the New
South Wales Institute of Sport and just kind of showing where
all their performance team kind of where they were, they office, they really have their own offices. There was this big open
space. So they’d be collaborative and there’d be more because I think I think to to build.
Simon Cynic talks about that and leaders eat last about it was talk that uses the government
as an analogy that I forget what year it was. All the government officials moved out of D.C. So proximity
wise, they weren’t they weren’t having lunch together. They weren’t just having small talk. So the only time they would come
together would be to make these votes and decisions on these laws. And so there would
be a lot of conflict. But they didn’t have that relational rapport and built some trust there
on the front. And so that you could have those tough conversations. Yeah. And so I think, you know, looking
at the the performance model there, I think there’s going to be a shift at some point towards being
more integrated and not being, like you said, silo, because I think that’s a real issue sometimes as being
in your little silo, there’s not communication. Yeah, without a doubt. Lip service, like you said. Right. And the issue
that compounds that, though, coach made is that we can have the perfect org chart
and walls down and proximity and all that. But also if we don’t encourage coaches
to become more skilled communicators, that’s not really going to like an org chart long term,
is it going to solve issues and in performance? A lot of that is ego, insecurity, communication
and understanding how to truly bridge gaps and negotiate and find common ground. And
as we talked about today, right now I think there’s 285 coach development programs
out there and less than 6 percent focus on interpersonal skills. That’s a big part of what we’re trying to do with our
coaching. Well, you go back to. Well, the thing is, I’ve gotten older not only as a coach, but as
a as a husband and as a father. The level in the power
of communication, one of my favorite quotes is my head coach goes like this where communication
is cut off, abnormality sets in a great one. And so when you don’t if you
you can communicate. But if people are not hearing you, there’s not a connection. You’re really not communicating,
right? Yeah. I mean, to build off that one of our kind of company log lines is more successful.
Interventions are the result of more successful interactions. Same thing like no matter what
you’re trying to accomplish. Show me one thing that doesn’t require some level of listening and or communication. Yeah, I mean,
that’s true. I think as I’ve gotten I guess have gotten over my career that I’ve learned, I just if I can to be a better
communicator, you’re more effective. Now, it doesn’t take as much in your marriage. I mean. That’s
right. That’s right. You’ve got to be a good communicator. There are different ways you learn to love language. Try
to shift gears just a little bit. If we were to come to watch you
train some of your athletes during one of your sessions. This is Coach Brant session. What would we
see? Give us kind of paints a picture with your words and what would we see? Yeah, I think that. So I’ll
paint a picture, literally a picture that I have in my office is Frank Sinatra leading
the Count Basie Orchestra and his favorite hotel wearing a
baseball cap and a really casual shirt. And people always wonder why I have that
photo. Like, what is this indicative of? But let me ask you real quick, when you think of Frank Sinatra. How do you
how does he typically dressed tuxedo slicked back hair delivery?
Well, that picture is indicative of really and there is only I think 400 of a made in the world is
that the world’s best never try to make themselves look like something that they don’t need
to be. Right. Like you can if you’re really great at something, it should almost look casual and boring.
And that has always been something that I’ve always looked at as I think that I think the best performers
nothing looks sorry, the best coaches the best for. Like it shouldn’t look crazy. There
shouldn’t be any on inspiring tactics. You should almost be a little bit bored because it’s
in the unseen where the great things are happening. So you came and watched me listen. You’re going to see
similar things you see with many coaches in terms of soft tissue modalities of a relatively thorough warm up. We’re going to see
exercises and drills that excite the neuromuscular system and things that challenge all aspects
of, you know, just shrink development, all those. What I always tell people is watch the interactions.
You know, when when we go watch, people observe. Dan Paff and they’d ask him. It was it was
almost wasted questions. They’d ask him about technology and what he thought about this rack versus that rack
or whatever. And, you know, Dan, who wrote the foreword for my book would come out and be like, nobody asks about actual
coaching anymore. And so he was one of the earliest supporters. So I think what I did and I
think you’d see is you’d see strategic interaction that is patient and purposeful,
even whether I’m using a certain type of language, whether I’m gesturing, whether I’m not
correcting an athlete, even if they’re doing something wrong, even if I’m not correcting him at the moment, there’s a reason
why I’ll have people come shadowplay. BLOCK Well, you didn’t do that. And you know that bounding exercise
that he didn’t achieve extension. And I said, yeah, that’s his third rat and it’s his first week.
Do it. I get it. So I would like to think what you would not see is a lot of over coaching.
What you would not see is a lot of dictatorial type of leadership. What you would not
see is a bunch of needless novelty. So I almost and I know I answer that in a turnaround way of
here’s what you would not see, but hopefully that also gives you a clear idea of what you would see.
It’s good. I think, you know, you look at training. Who would you say
over again over your career? Who’s had some some big influence in maybe your philosophy or just even your approach
to how you think in terms of systems? You talk about an athlete that I worked with that challenge me thinking
about these things and like a coach. Yeah, I think more
I think more just who who’s kind of, you know, who’s kind of had that voice
over the years. When you sit down to write a workout or your thought process is
to address key objectives, whether it’s who’s influenced you the most, you think? I would say it’s
an amalgamation. I mean, listen, I’ve never I’ll be honest. I’ve never had a true mentor that was with
me every point in my career that influenced me. And I used to be really bitter about that. Now, I actually think it
was a strength because I there were so many influences, right? There is
who I learned under Gerard Nestel and at southern Illinois was ruthless
and making us defend our programs. And he would make you get detail every single thing you had
to defend as if you were caught in a court of law. And I loved that. I really appreciated that about him.
Some people thought that that was kind of hard nosed, whatever. I thought that was great, that just growing up in Nebraska,
you grew up in the shadow of a mecca of strength and conditioning. So just good old fashioned husker power
principles of multi joint. Movements, right, multiplayer, multi joint movements and no
nonsense training. And then, of course, my time outfits performance with with Mark Verstegen.
I mean, people have a dramatic misunderstanding of what a lot about what I mean
before him and people like Vern gamburdo, who also was an influence in terms of how I look at
movement. There was really not a whole lot of folks out there that were taking the same attention to detail that you saw
in track and linear speed or acceleration and applying that to multi-directional movement.
And, you know, API back in the day. Now, people would know it as exos, but to me they’re very different
companies. Athletes performance was an environment where coaches would openly challenge each other and be like,
Hey, you thought that was a good session, you can do better. What are five things you need to improve on? It was all came
from a good place, but it was competitive in a healthy way. So I’d say, you know, just from the roots of where I grew
up. The graduate assistant is situations that I was in and
then, of course, the athletes performance. And then there was one gentleman, Victor Hall and Andan
Path and Stu McMillan were three people down when I really started talking more about psychosocial aspects
when everybody else thought I was crazy, cause all I used to talk about was periodization and agility and all those things.
They encourage me to keep going. So those three deserve special recognition for jumping on early board.
Dan was huge. No, not love. Thanks for sharing on that. I think it’s so critical for
if you walk in, you look at a coach and you look at him training and working with the team, you got to know the background
of that coach and how they were raised. Hardships. They went through their family,
that they were a part of the different coaches. They were under the adverse the dark
seasons. Maybe they went through things that had a big impact on them, things that didn’t cause that goes into
part of who you are, who I am. And I think that’s always it’s kind of like
that old country, Sam. And when you meet drink out of a water hose, you go get a little taste
of the hose no matter who. The water’s gonna be great. But there’s gonna be a little taste of the hose and everybody’s
different, right? Yeah. And one to that point, exactly. One conflict I had early on in my career
as there was an athletic trainer that didn’t really care for the way that I coach because I’m pretty intense depending
on the context or what have you. And you know, she had said that she goes, I just don’t understand why you
coach, why everything is always so loud and intense and what have you. And I was probably maybe 25 at the time
and I realized that she had no idea of my background of that. You know, again, at 15 years
old, I was hospitalized for a year. My life nearly died. And when I got out of there, it was inculcated
in me pretty clearly that you don’t have long on this planet. I had family that died really young. My dad
lost his dad, my grandfather when my dad was only twelve. My grandmother suffered a major heart
attack. I’ve had family members die of cancer. So it’s urgency has always been in me. And
this idea that I’m probably not you know, I don’t know how long I’ll be here. And I’m grateful to be here in
general from coming out of that hospitalization. So, yeah. Coach intensely. And I don’t do it to try to
garner attention. I don’t try to do it to assert dominance. I try to do it because at the end of the day,
training to me is nothing more than a tool to teach other people what they’re capable of. And
you don’t have many opportunities to teach them that lesson in impactful ways. So we don’t have time to waste.
So that was an example of, you know, a lot of times that would kind of turn out a lot of times when that circumstance
it turned a colleague off to my approach because she didn’t know she had drank from that
hose. Yeah, that’s true. Talking about training a little bit more,
you know, technology is just on the rise and it seems like. Every
other week, you turn around, there’s some new gadget or device
that can capture data in training. Do you use any technology?
And then kind of what are your thoughts on some of the technology just being used in training today? Yeah, I use when I can
now. What I’ve determined to use now is based on, you know, experience that I had had when, you know,
an API and what have you, we would always have people coming in and trying to hawk the latest and greatest just because they want to get those
things in with partnerships. Right, just like they do with teams and what have you. So I’ve been exposed to
a wide range of technology. Some you know, it’s great. And you get onto it for a while and other things,
you’re kind of you start to differentiate. Nice to have need to have, especially depending on your budget.
So I want to I have to make it very clear any technology I use now is 100 percent out of my own
pocket and I own a self-funded business. Right. So I think, of
course, if you have the budget, it’s great to use things like force plates with relevant software. That tells
you what that data means. It’s great if you use things like Naude Board and the groin bar. I’ve used both
of those in the past. It’s great if you use things that measure velocity, whatever. You know, there’s a million of
those what I use now when I’m self-funding it and to keep it simple and
I coach remotely and have to adapt is I’ll use a good old fashioned jump mat. I’ll
use a good old fat. I’ll use a good ol. If I still bring out the industrial tape measure to look
at everything from broad jump to lateral bounds to lateral, you know, like a single triple hop test,
things like that. We will use during certain phases of the offseason like a Tendo unit to get an idea
of where the neuromuscular systems at IV use something as simple as a hand grip. Dinham ometer. I mean CNS.
Yeah, when I when I’ve been abroad and relatively like, you know, situations where you don’t
have access to much if you give me a hand grip dinham ometer and a jump mat. And then you know what, just
data that you’ve collected through the strength programs and the phases, you should be able to tell a good bit. Now, of course,
we also make know we’re not talking about assessment’s as a whole. You’re saying on technology, but I will use
like AB just easy to sign things that are sent to guys for medical waivers and all those
pieces. Of course. Yeah, we just like it. We try to look at the cnrs, we try to look at biomechanical
deficiencies, but at the same time I just feel like coaches right now need to be
understanding of the fact that they’re probably doing too much. You need to put blinders on to a point, say right
now if your job depended on it. What are the three things you would utilize? Because it’s always easier to add,
add, add, add, add. But like right now I just thing more coaches need to strip away because it’s
taking away from their coaching skill. They’re getting too reliant on so many aspects of this technology where
they need to be married appropriately. That’s good, I think. I forget the name the author, but the book
unplugged, they talk about that in there. That training is you’ve got to you’ve got to know your body.
Yeah. But if you’re always looking at a piece of data or device for how you should
train that day, then you lose that connection and we’ll get to that point like we use a browser. There’s certain times
where NFL guys, if they do not want that browser to come out because one of them defensive
linemen every time, instead of just comparing where he’s out from the beginning of the offseason to later
on. Once we’ve gone. He just keeps comparing himself to where he was at the combine. And I said, man, like,
you can’t do that. You’re six, seven years into the league now. You have bumps here, like what
you lack now and physiological capacities that you maybe had. Then granted you want to manage that gap
you’ve made up for in technical savvy and know how from being a veteran, you know, it’s just like it’s not even
in boxing, like you had the opportunity to meet and work with Roy Jones and Winky Wright and what have you. And
and these guys like it. Even if they can’t hit as hard as they used during certain parts of their career, they knew how
to recognize counter-punching opportunities. Coaches need to understand counter-punching opportunities
as opposed to just being offensive with more and more, more, more, more. You’ve got to balance that. And that’s good
point. I like to you talk a lot about in your book about
by in my experience the last few years
is I’ve seen coaches, strength coaches, specifically having trouble
with head coach BIEWEN. So getting your athletes to buy into a program is one thing.
How do you speak to somebody that maybe they need to work on, get their head coach to buy into
their program to what they’re doing? How would you. Yeah. And this is your address. This has been an interesting problem and a failure
on my part that somehow we have a community so we can read a book
by a Navy SEAL. And none of us are Navy SEALs, but we recognize that we can apply those lessons.
We can read a book. You alluded to by David EPSTEIN. Now, none of us do. Like many people listening
right now are probably not just solely professional authors and they’ll take things from that. Yet what I’ve struggled
with is my book while it talks about athlete Baen. Is
about buying in totality. So I’m trying to figure out this divide where when I go to speak
for corporations or tactical settings, they understand that we’re talking about systemic buy in
with that book because they can extrapolate. Coaches tend to think, well, hey, I read your book,
but how does this work for superiors or colleagues? Well, it’s the same byan as trust
plus commitment. And building trust takes a combination of skilled interpersonal communication,
which includes great listening, which includes learning how to relate to others, which includes having
to knowing how to navigate power dynamics. And of course, those are all the precedent set
precedent for how we do that with other folks. So, you know, when you think about buying. If we had
to bastardize it and consolidated to three things are really four. I always say research
relaid, reframe and reinforce. So research is if you want to gain buy
in or the trust of somebody ethically and responsibly, you need to listen and understand what
their pain points are, what their fears, what their struggles, what their tendencies are. You need to relate.
You need to be able to help them understand whether that’s understood that you were listening. By summarizing what they say to ensure
that you’re on the same page or even relating by showing some level of vulnerability, meaning you’re not getting your own
ego into it. Right. You’re able to step back and let them kind of win the battle so you can win the war. And those
are inappropriate analogies. But this is not a Ballo award, should be a mutual partnership.
And then you want to reframe like every time you talk to them. Now, once you know more about their wants, needs, drives, desires,
fears and what have you. And they know a little bit more about where you’re going and you’re listening. Reframing is now
you’ve got to change your language. Coach mayb- so that everything you speak to coincides
with what they value most. And then you constantly have to the final are reinforce that
you have. It’s a long term partnership that takes a while to end. That’s the key. That’s why in the book
I say one of the biggest elements that people struggle with buying is time. It’s not going to happen on your
time. It’s not. That’s a relationship. It’s a negotiation and it’s a partnership.
You know, you’re not gonna make somebody fall in or out of love with the overnight real love. Right? You’re not going to make
it. That’s almost like saying, hey, if I get my athletes under the squat rack or what have you, I expect instantaneous
results. Now, sure, somebody, if they’re being contrarian, can say, well, you do you get enhance motor unit recruitment
right away. They know what I mean. Yeah. You don’t get direct, non ambiguous transfer
to sport immediately. You have to look at buy in the same way. And I like that. I think,
you know, I think for younger coaches or even some older ones, too, I think the coach is
going to buy into you as a person before you buy into whatever you’re going to person. So I think just being,
you know, like you said this having those skills, relatable skills of how to just have it, just normal
relationship first, kind of like that. I think coaches that get so caught up in the program
part of it, they try to assert themselves and versus just, hey, just who cares about the program right now?
Just worry about making this connection in this relationship first. Once
you get that trust, then you can get the commitment like you just said. But unfortunately, it’s hard to be surprised that that’s what
coaches do, because that’s what they’ve been taught to almost it’s almost become fetishized,
like coaches try to assert their superiority or credibility through their programing methods. Right.
Like that. I mean, how growing up, that’s all I ever heard about is are you a West Side guy or are you an Olympic
guy? Are you this guy again? Think about the divides we’ve talked about. Just aren’t here. West Side
Guy, Olympic guy D Tech, do you not? Right. Like in terms of people have what kind of tag
are you, private sector, collegiate, pro high school, whatever. I don’t go into doctors or Dennis
office and hear people be like you, an orthopedic surgeon, you’re a brain surgeon. You a wisdom tooth guy or a molar guy.
And like our field, sikh’s divides and seeks to assert itself so much that it digs
itself a hole. And no wonder we don’t get along with many superiors or colleagues because
we’re so worried about proving our value instead of providing value. And that’s leads
us astray. Very true. Now that I’ve got another little
topic for you here, I’ve got a bunch of questions for you via. You’re doing great. So one thing
I’m being just I’m so interested in intrigued, you’re an author,
best selling author. What was that process like writing updated?
Well, was bad. What was it? Well, I mean, I’m a kinetic individual. I think best
while moving or while interacting. So I tend to think more clearly through conversation,
through self reflection, through movement, all those things and trying to write
a book. Where it’s your you’re just stationary. You have to sit
and you have to. And it’s silent and you don’t want to read other people’s stuff because it could influence your work too
much. But at the same time, you have to do some due diligence, like there is no playbook that was passed
down to me on how to do that. I started writing it. You know, probably I can’t even I
would probably it came out in 2017. It probably started writing it maybe in 2011,
and you move or you have different things going on in your life. And at the time, you don’t even know it’s going to be a book. You’re just putting something
down. And then I got married in between. We had moved again. And so.
Yeah. And I finally, I think actually would encourage me or
the thing I actually have to give credit for actually getting it written is I had left
a job in Los Angeles. It just wasn’t a good fit for my wife anymore. We had turned
down a job in the NFL a year prior and it wasn’t because we didn’t want it. It just timing. We had already
accepted this other position. And I only say that because if I had taken that job, I really don’t think I would have finished
the book when I did. And so it was only when I was like, all right, we’re going out on our own
and this is all up to us. Like there’s no safety net. I’m not
a trust fund, baby. My wife’s not a trust fund baby. I need to get this done.
So I went on my own, started yelling. I was coaching our feeds from 5:00 in the morning to
it was awkward for me because I’d gone from now coaching all these pro athletes and doing this. Now, even having to do
some elements of personal training again until we made the decision of where we were going to move. And then I would
write from basically 11:00 p.m. to 2 a.m. and then get up and do it again. And
I had to invest a lot of money in it because we self-publish. So now you’re
looking at what it cost to do an ad, hire an editor, what it costs to hire a graphic designer for the cover.
All these things. And, you know, I’m a strength coach not having made much money. So it’s equal
parts, rewarding, harrowing, frustrating, enlightening. You learn a lot
about yourself. I always tell coaches my best advice for coaches now because I hate when people are like, get your
degree, get an internship. Like tell them something real. Put skin in the game. I do something
where the consequences are very, very, very real. Learn as much about yourself as you can
metaphorically taste your own blood and then you’ll start to know what you can do. Because, you
know, one thing that that book helped me do is it help me move from what was essentially early
on. I’d criticized so much of what I saw. And I realized that that was because I identify
with somebody that was I’m in the trenches, I’m doing this, and so much of this stuff out there is crap. But then
I had never tried to communicate something to a broader audience. And when you do that, when you sit down and actually
put pen to paper and try to elucidate and like make it clear, like, this is what I know, here’s how
I can make it super easy to understand while also not trying to please everybody. You know, you rewrite
your book like six times. The first time I wrote it, it was probably too academic. He. And then it’s funny because
now in its current rendition, people are like, well, you know, like, yeah, it’s a good starting point. And then
there’s other people that think it’s it’s too technical. So that’s when you learn you’ll also never make anybody
happy. But I would say the last thing I would say is this I’m glad I did it because you’re haunted
by it. We would go out if we went out to a movie or something like that. I would feel when I got to that
movie, I would feel like a failure because I knew this book was this thing I had to do.
I had to do. And so I’m I’m just glad I did it, because you’ll know if
if something’s really something you’re supposed to do, it will haunt you every waking moment, every
day. And then to a degree, you’ve got to block it out. I mean, the amount of people that said I could have written this and I could have
done that, I’m like, but then go do it. Go write your book. Yeah. So,
yeah, it’s a rewarding. But it takes years off your life. Any possibilities of another book?
Yeah. You know, and I get asked that a lot. So the first thing we did is and I’m going to steal this from
Robert Cialdini because Robert Sheldon, he wrote two books that were 20 years plus apart
from one another. And they ask him why. He said, I’m into planning oak trees, not shrubs. So,
you know, I knew and we had offers to do like a conscious coaching for sport coaches, conscious coaching for military
conscious coaching for corporations. We could have mella to that. That was not something I wanted to do.
And thankfully, because the audience was discerning, they knew that despite
the fact that I talk about shaming, conditioning and all that, that it’s it could spread. And that’s where the book kind of took
off in the business world. There will probably be another book at some point time. But I’ll all
I’m telling you, this first won’t sell like the last one did. People will be very divided
on it because of the topic, which I’m not going to talk about here. But the topic would be one that
would be polarizing and not intentionally. It’s just because sometimes people don’t want to hear the
truth in the way that they want to hear it, because I get asked that a lot, too. Don is like, well,
how do you. You’ll know on that there’s no way your second book could ever measure up to your fur, and I’m like, why does it have to?
I got not worried. I’m not where I self-published something. Clearly, I’m not worried about book sales. It’s a blessing from God
that the book is translated into six languages and over a hundred thousand copies sold. But
I thought my mom would read it and my brother would burn it. Now, we did do a follow up to the book.
I wanted to explore what it was like making things in different mediums. So the book came
out in 2017 and 2018. I made Bought In, which is an online course that
was made for people who wanted to go deeper and be more immersive. So yeah, that’s good. Yeah,
we did that because I think too often people get caught up thinking they need to write another book. I’m more in
line. We live in a digital age. Right. You talked about how technology is pervasive in training. Well, it’s
also pervasive in education. It would behoove me just to think that a book is the only way I can reach people.
So we have more than 500 coaches in that online course, and that’s only a year old
or year and a half old. So, yeah, we’re just we’re taking our time with it. And I want to plant an oak tree when it when
and if it is time and I want to plant a shrub. Well, I mean, I like that. I like that analogy. The oak tree. I think,
you know, you need to keep doing what you’re doing. You’re definitely making an impact and influence.
There’s always gonna be people that that are going to hate or not like or criticize. But typically
those are the ones that aren’t doing much. They don’t do anything because if they’re really happy, they don’t criticize. And so
those are the ones you just gotta, you know, just be sort. Weren’t those guys and just keep moving. So keep doing what? You damn
appreciate that. Likewise. Yes, sir. Talking a little. We’ll talk a little
social media. Sure. So social media is not only here to stay, it’s not
going away. Would you agree? 100 percent. We have a whole podcast on my about that. Yeah. It’s never going to do.
What would your advice be? So this is even recent for me. This is a current kind of
experience I’ve had. I run into coaches today like, oh, you know, I don’t
have social media. That’s not for me. That’s just that stuff’s bad. I’m not going to get on that and blah, blah,
blah, blah. So you got that side of it, right. But then you go all the way to this other extreme
and you start talking about us as professionals, younger coaches posting things
on there. That’s really sometimes a bad look. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong,
but it can influence or have big impacts on the perception of
our role as shrink coaches. What advice would you give to a younger swing coach
that maybe they post all the time? But then what about over here, the six other extreme of like
these older coaches or some coaches? You know, I’m not full with social media. Yeah. I mean, simply
put, social media is your resume aid to the world. So I like that. That’s my advice to people is
put out. It should be led by values, not vanity. And listen, I know
what, if I wanted to have a million followers, there would be a bunch of pictures leveraging
pictures and videos, leveraging, you know, my athletes notoriety, doing all kinds of crazy
drills or half naked people like that’s not what I’m about. So if you follow me, it’s pretty straightforward.
It’s about, you know, I’ve posted a lot of things over the years. We do some training, but now a lot of it is coaching leadership.
It is about my life. Communication, what have you. I think it is funny when you say
older coaches that when I was coming up and it was an athlete that actually challenged me to get on social media.
Richie Incognito had told me at this time I didn’t even have a Twitter because people had said everybody
I learned under and I was a hardcore convert of this is if you’re on social media, you’re not a real coach.
That’s what I that’s what I grew up, it being kind of told. And so I adhere to that. And
then I remember one of my athletes, Richie, had said one time when the group was having a water break. He goes, why aren’t you on Twitter,
Instagram when really around at this point? And I said, real coaches aren’t on social media. He goes, oh, it’s
funny. He goes, ’cause you educate your interns and you tell us why we’re doing certain things like
you don’t think there’s anybody else in the world that could benefit from your insight. And like, well, I mean, I’m not a know
it all. You know what I mean? So like, I’m sure there is, but that’s not how I want to come across. And he goes, I think you’ve got your audience
wrong, brother. He’s like, if you think that there’s people out there and you’re not doing what you can to help them, then
you know, you need to redefine what it means to be a coach in so many words. And so is him of
all people. And people can say what they want about his mental health struggles. He’s one of the best. He’s
just a great person. He is. And people don’t know anything other than what they read in the tabloids or whatever. But,
you know, that challenged me. So I started looking at what can I change? Because that’s kind of like saying I’m not going to post
or whatever. And it’s bad for you is like living near the beach and you hear there is drownings that happen occasionally.
So you’re not going to teach your kids how to swim. You just rather move away from the water. Like no matter what social
net, we live in a time of digital networks and social networks
and all those things. And I also heard coaches say, wow, I’m too busy. Elon Musk tweets,
Richard Branson tweets. So really, here’s the thing, Tony.
Our fields excuses. Ninety nine percent of them are masked or thinly veiled insecurities.
But we’ll come up with that whatever reason they want to say, but it’s imposter phenomenon.
They they don’t want to be judged. They don’t want to be criticized. The key, they don’t want to be criticized a person, they don’t wanna be crazy. They think
they’ll lose their job because if they say something stupid or looking napped and like whatever, they don’t want to be criticized.
It all goes back to skin in the game. It all goes back to this game, a game that younger coaches already said it values,
not vanity at your resumé to the world. You can never take those things back because even if you remove a post that’s
a digital catalog that will live in the Internet ether forever. Don’t overthink
this stuff. You know, like I used to think that if I posted, it had to be something that would like, wow,
you know, the thought leaders of our field. And now I just do me. And if you like it, great. If you don’t.
Whatever. I had a conversation, you know, to piggyback on what you’re saying. This was just
recently with a coach. Great coach, very knowledgeable. I had a
great has a great job doing a wonderful job with the athletes he’s got. And
so I asked him about this. Are you? You know, if I go to Google, you or whatever,
we not only then not on Twitter and on Instagram, nothing dangerous. And so I.
But hold on. So then we were having this conversation about career path and getting
promoted and move. I said today your resumé is own line.
People aren’t looking at your piece of paper. I’m not saying you got to go crazy on it, but you need to get
your so you can get your stuff down in. You need to get. You need to have an online presence. It’s current
and it gives people a snapshot of what kind of coach you are you. That’s a powerful
platform. You have control and you can paint that picture. You need to do it with integrity,
obviously. But you’re missing the game. Yeah. I mean, you make a great point. And our mutual
friend Ron McCaffrey, we talked about that. If you don’t have if you don’t own your own digital real estate, you’re leaving it up
to somebody else to draw what conclusions they might. And that’s it. That’s just the truth. You know, it is
it is like in the end, it doesn’t matter. People need to get it through their heads. And it doesn’t matter what you like in
this world. It matters what you can adapt to brass tacks. It just is the facts.
Right. Like so if all of a sudden, like. And I think people get it twisted. They say social media is the downfall
of shaming conditioning. Have you ever Googled strength coach fired or shrimp coach, ethics
or strength coach? Viral. You look at those sayings Google. I would argue, is
a lot more powerful than social media and strength. Coaches do a pretty good job of embarrassing themselves
through some of the things that have gone on through the years. And you’re talking about a lot of honor and ethical. And listen, I’m not one
I’m not perfect. Right. Like who? Everybody. But if you Google strength and conditioning and you go
deep enough, you see a lot of Google searches and a lot of index results that come
up. Google’s coaches doing some really questionable stuff. So even if social
media didn’t exist, like you say, I always tell people social media didn’t create more idiots.
If anything, it actually puts a spotlight on the ones that you should avoid. Right. But like, good. We
look at, you know, and before listen, like that’s true. That’s to say before social media, there weren’t people
doing unethical or ridiculous things during like, you know, during colonialism. Like
people would try to advertise themselves to be something charlatans go throughout the
history of time. You know, the Wild West. Somebody would sell colder ice than somebody else. And so I just
I love it when there’s always something to blame. You’re usually to blame. And that’s collective. That’s myself,
too. You have to take a hard look, which is why I’m so visible now. As I say, when I until other people to do
things, I’m not doing it. And myself not perfect. And it’s not for everybody. But you know what? They’ll know who I am and what I stand for.
And I think to coach Brand, I think if you’re going to stay relevant and
stay current with the profession, you’ve got at some point have an online presence.
Other professions, if you don’t stay current, you don’t move up. Yeah. You don’t advance. You
don’t stay. You don’t stay relatable. And I mean, how much more? And I’m not saying again,
I know I like what you’re saying, because just because there’s some bad stuff out there
doesn’t mean you’re going to join the bad stuff. Don’t you want to do. And I think the key to that is you’ve got to be authentic.
And I think that you need to have the right motive of why you’re doing. I mean, I think
I know when I first started doing something, I would struggle with this kind of pool of like being
accused and judged. So you’re accurate in that of being a self-promoter.
So I would struggle with that. So you know what? People can just go in, misjudge me or whatever, that I’m
self-promoting. But, you know, I’m actually I enjoy what I’m doing and I love trying to help people.
At the end of the day, you can call it what you own. Yeah. Let’s be real clear. What’s wrong with it? If you feel like you’re doing something
that has value and you’re doing it ethically, what’s wrong with trying to share that with other people?
Right. Like that. That it’s so there’s so much double speak there because
think of everything, right? Like do these people that say this, they work for teams or organizations
that have a budget. And that budget is typically allocated through alumni or some other donations or it’s privately
funded by the team owner. But at the end of the day, if anybody wants something to be
allocated within a budget, if somebody wants to be able to utilize resources that upgrade their
department, how do they think they get that money through promotion and fundraising?
Right. So when people say, well, I’m not a self-promoter, I’m not this and that. No, but you’re reaping the benefits
of other people that are doing promotion and marketing for you. And so it’s one thing, if you’re a self-promoter that’s doing
things that are unethical or you’re trying to present yourself as a no at all. But no matter what you’re marketing to
the world, regardless the people that say I don’t promote myself and I’m not on social media
are marketing themselves as these old school people that don’t mark their marketing even
by default of not the absence of a feature is still a feature. That’s the bottom line.
And so they really don’t they really don’t unders- like when I walk through. Airport at in Atlanta.
I see. And I think it’s down here, it’s it’s a cancer research hospital for in
Austin. And it advertises what they’re doing from a cancer research standpoint. KOCH That’s
advertising right now. Do I look at that and think, well, that’s that’s that’s not that’s
not sound ethics or that’s inappropriate. If they were doing it for the right reasons, they wouldn’t need to advertise.
Wrong. Like public relations if people want to increase the use of Metro Transit
in New York. Guess what? They need a public relations campaign to tell people why. If you want to draw attention
to a helpful product, a new form of technology in the weight room that might benefit your athletes. Those are all forms
of marketing. Impression management and and all those things. So I just think it’s funny when coaches
say that they don’t want to self-promoter market yet they engage in those behaviors every day. They try
to make their programs appealing to their athletes by being in coaching. Here’s a bomb. You’re
in marketing by default. You’re taking in message, trying to distill it
in a meaningful way to an audience. Dan Pink’s kind of book. Daniel Pink
could sell all that book has changed. My whole thought price process is that we’re all in sales.
How do you like it or not? You may not say you’re a salesman, but you’re in sales. And because of the human relations
side piece of it, and you’ve got to build influence and you got to persuade. Be honest with yourself. Right. And that’s a lot of what my doctoral
work is now is on influence, persuasion, power dynamics. Because what I learn is writing
great programs was not enough. It is not enough because you. It doesn’t matter how well-written
that program is, if the athlete doesn’t put out that type of effort that you want from it or
if somebody organizationally is stifling what you’re trying to do because of their agendas.
Right. So most people in professional sport organizations are elite sport, just like with elite organizations around the world
are not finding a lack of success because they’re not writing the right programs or they don’t have the right base ingredients.
It’s because of power dynamics and agendas of other people that deviltry, ulterior motives.
You don’t understand those things. How you going to combat them? What would be some simple just
steps and advice? Somebody is listening. We just kind of they want a trial of social media.
They’ve never done it. They’ve shied away from it. Now they’re realizing that, hey, I need to kind of
start doing some this will be some simple advice you give to somebody who’s just starting now. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I always tell people
and this is where I don’t worry about the self-promotion anymore. Look at the resources we put out. We like I have a whole
course that addresses ethical behavior around this and it kind of coincides with
what we talked about earlier. If you’re just starting off with social media, it’s like the same thing. If you’re writing a book,
write what you know and don’t follow the crowd. Put blinders on. There are tons of people that want me to just
keep posting training videos and photos like I did three, four or five years ago, two years
ago. I like I don’t want to just do that anymore. Like, how many more agility drills can you see? How many more squat?
You know what I mean? Like, I I wake up and there’s things I feel moved or influenced by and I want to talk about those
things. So like be consistent is the other thing. I have people that have said, you know, I
tried it. I did this. I thought I put helpful stuff out there. And it’s just not taking I.
How long you been doing it? Six months. Right. Like it took me five years even get
any kind of following when my book Conscious Coaching came out. I maybe had 5000 people following me on Instagram
and, you know, not much. I didn’t even have like a newsletter. I didn’t have anything. And
people quit right away. So just write what you know, be consistent.
Quit worrying about everybody else. Be authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Like, again, like, who are you? Like, if
you can’t. If I can look at that. The first 16 photos or post I see should give me a clear indicator,
fairly clear indicator of who you are. And you know what I found, coach? The minute I quit worrying about all that stuff, the
minute I quit worrying about pleasing everybody and wanted everybody to see me a certain way and whatever.
I got more of a following and a loyal following and it was a good following. And I got rid of the toxic people
that just want to, you know what I mean? They’re like. And it’s relaxing. Like I saw my post. Like
people can see my goofy side. People will see the serious side. People will learn about my son. My thoughts
around coaching. And if you don’t, I follow that. Great. There’s a million other humby, I think. I think people were drawn
to mistakes we make, you know, because that’s you’re vulnerable.
But then also you’re so relatable because there’s a humility that comes to that being able to acknowledge
the handle, have all the answers and made some mistakes. I like showing my imperfections far more now than I like. I’d rather
share embarrassing stories and stuff than good advice. Recently,
another little topic I think is interesting, but really a very hot topic
in strength conditioning specifically in the college scene over the past I’d
say few years, we’ve definitely received some criticism from athletes not being trained
properly. What are your thoughts on just certifications in regards to
raising the bar professionally as well as just minimizing athlete risk? Yeah, I think
you said you want me to attack that from the certification standpoint or what we can do to. Atomize athlete risk.
First and foremost, you know, I’d love to hear your thoughts on certification, but then,
you know well, let’s hear your thoughts first as I got my thoughts to sell on the certificate. What’s your thoughts? I
think right now, transparently, our governing bodies could be doing more. I think they’ve gotten tone deaf. I do. And
I’ve like, listen, I’m a paying member and I have my Yes.Yes and my RACC and all these
other things. But I think that it’s gotten a bit tone deaf to the field. Now, granted, like I’m biased,
right? Like I’m putting information out there that is about the art of coaching and relationships and
also dealing with burnout and financial management and things that real coaches are struggling with.
And I’ve been told that that laterin that latter topic in particular wasn’t relevant enough to
get C use, which I thought was really interesting because we had more than 3000 coaches
per third party survey say that they deal with aspects of burnout, financial issues, student loan debt,
anxiety. They’re not sure if they can stay in the field. Now, we were told point blank by a governing body that that,
you know, that just stuff wasn’t they didn’t view it as rella. Now they try to kind of shield that with saying,
well, what we’re saying is it’s not a part of our certification type
information. And I feel maybe it should be because we need to focus on allowing coaches to be able
to actually have a sustainable career. Now, I want to keep it on topic with what you said.
You talked about athlete safety, health and all that. That’s the endgame.
Keeping them safe. Yeah, well, 100 percent. But like I said, they’re not mutually exclusive. As a coach, you can have
a career that you are able to keep your athletes safe, but you’re also able to see your family and make some money.
You know, I always love it when people say it’s like they act as if our profession has to be either or, you know, and that’s like the
first book I was ever given in the fields, like first in, last out, which is basically a connotation of saying like
in which it was given to me, like, unless you want to work obscene hours constantly and not have a life,
you’re not going to be successful. And there’s a balance to those things. So I think that, you know, the
way that we’ve treated, whether it’s certification or whether, by the way, we’ve addressed
issues within screaming conditioning in totality, that has a reflection of what we’ve done with athlete health
and safety, like more people need to get involved into it as opposed to just speaking up. We have so many
strength coaches out there that clamor for solutions. Yet what are they doing? What are they doing? That
was the biggest point. I had to check myself as I could complain about a lot of things and I used to, but until I started
trying to put stuff out there books, courses, podcasts, whatever. I realized that like
like quit complaining about the dark if you’re not going to light a match. So I’m encouraging the answer to your question
as direct as I can be. If you think you have solutions, get involved. And getting involved does
not say does not entail you telling these governing bodies what they should do.
You like whether you need to run for positions or you need to provide the resources or whatever. Do it. Get in the trenches.
I had to spend my own money to create all of my online courses. I do spend my nobody funded that. I don’t get
paid a salary. And like so it troubles me when I have coaches. I mean, I saw it the other day on one
of the message boards. Somebody is complaining that we need licensing in our field, not certifications, but a licensure.
But these people been complaining about this for years. OK. Great. Then create a proposal that,
you know, expands upon curriculum or a path and then let’s figure out what that needs to be done and then
get the necessary people on board. Believe me, if people can figure out how to shoot rockets into space
that land themselves back down on that very pad, a group of trained coaches can figure
out how to improve some things, but they just expect the governing bodies to do it for him. So I think
I think it’s multi-factorial. I think it’s insidious because our governing bodies for sure can be tone deaf to some things that need to be
improved and that you don’t always feel supported as a strength coach. At least I don’t feel like the minute I got
out of a team setting, like I do feel like our governing bodies are very much geared towards
just team and there needs to be more unification of what we’re doing. Right. Like other fields have unions,
other fields. Yeah, I agree with the NFLPA. They have a players, I say. Meanwhile, we’re all fighting
each other and then we have organizations and we wonder why there’s so many issues. Right. And
then more coaches just need to learn more about. Like I said, business ethics strategies, get involved, spend your own
money or quit complaining and find a way to make it work. Yeah. And I like I like on that. I also feel
like, you know, that the athlete risk. I think that there’s. And I know this is a bit
you know, you talk about this, too, but you talk you look at the culture and the power structures
in different teams. And I think, you know, you look at the the the amount of
pay that some of our coaches are getting in, some of the revenue sports is getting very high, which with comes
out comes a lot of authority and weight. Right. And so I think that, you know, you look
at who’s being hired, how they’re being hired. Look at hiring practices. And are they just good buddies
that you’re bringing in? Most of the time they are. Yeah. And so I think I think I think it’s going to be more
just from my experience in the field than just a certification. Oh, without it a guy. And it’s they’ve
got to be unified. Like you said, there’s there’s definitely stronger unity needed. But then there’s the other pieces,
too. But your colleagues at parties. So that’s why when I created that online course valued that
was the goal is to provide coaches with an alternate MBA of sorts. Because your resumes and your connections
aren’t enough. So we wanted to create a resource that bridge fields and gender gaps
and age gaps. We got Donelle Bush, a coach, Hootie,
any McCloy. We got people in collegiate, pro-private, whatever. A bunch of other coaches, a financial
manager or a financial advisor provided resources, a lawyer. And
we tried putting that together because what we’re trying to say collectively is nobody’s going to do it for
you. You know what I mean? Like, it shouldn’t be the expectation that these improvements in our field are going to be done
for us. You’ve got to be a part of that. You being a collective us. Right. But then the issue, coach, and
when I challenge you on is even when these resources are available. But what we’ve learned
is most coaches don’t want to talk to him because they feel selfish. They feel guilty. We’ve heard.
Well, you know. Yeah. Like, I have trouble with this. I have trouble with that. I feel stuck. I’m burned out or I’m
not sure what to do or it’s a toxic organization. And I don’t I can’t leave because I’ve got a family. But
then it’s like, well, hey, there’s a resource that can help you in there. Yeah, but, you know, I just feel like I
shouldn’t do it. Like if I’m in it for the right reasons, I shouldn’t be focused on these things. I just need to give more. I’m like, yeah. Oh,
yeah. Key point from an empty cup. See how that goes or. Yeah. The the oxygen masks
have fallen from the plane. Don’t put yours on and see how many people you can help. So I think this martyrdom
of strength and conditioning needs to go away too. And that’s another topic. I mean how many coaches today
coaching themselves? Very few because they don’t want to pay for it. Yeah, it’s that just how
can always kind of have the same. How can the coach, the coaches
be uncoachable, you know, if we’re going to coach and teach. We’ve got to be great
learners himself, you know. And I think, you know, emptying your cup, that’s a that’s a definitely martial arts
term or saying that’s it. That’s definitely relevant. That’s
tough, coach. Where do you see our profession going? What’s the next big thing? Do you see
something on the horizon? If you thought about this at all? Babin I’m trying to put my money where my mouth is. I
think if coaches don’t invest in learning more about the psycho-social of aspects of influence, communication,
interpersonal skills and also coaches don’t upskill their their own knowledge of the business side
of this field. I think you’re going to be left behind. So when I say the business, it’s everything I’m talking
about, whether it’s understanding social media, negotiating contracts, proper networking,
all the things that kind of provide you with intangibles and more control over your own career. And then the
social side of what we do and really diving deeper and understanding that the art of coaching
is every bit a science as well. And so I think those are two
areas. And I’m totally right. I’m totally fine being wrong. I’ll say that, you know, but at least
I look at this way, what allows me to sleep as I’m planting a flag, you know, but I just find it hard to
think that in our field we are going to I mean, coaching
by definition is social in nature. So why aren’t we investing more in understanding social
science? But it goes hand-in-hand with what you just said. Coach made most people not getting coaching
themselves because we all suffer from some element of Dunning-Kruger thinking we’re better at it than we really
are, or most people just don’t change until the changes thrust upon
them. It’s just like the athlete that won’t listen to what you. He keeps pulling his hamstring and you tell me to do something
and he doesn’t do it. So he keeps pulling his hamstring. And then eventually it’s like there’s gonna be a tipping point where maybe
they’re gonna listen to you or they’re going to phase out. Same thing will happen in our field. Habits are so hard to break.
Obviously not only lifestyle, but work habits because we’ve always done it that way. Yeah. What do you feel like
has been the hardest habit for you to overcome something that you knew is toxic or or harmful or like just
kind of like you were stuck and you couldn’t get over it for a while? And then you just realized,
no, the way I looked at that was completely wrong. L like, was was there something you were a little bit hard nosed
or stubborn about? Yeah, I mean, I think. Probably similar to a lot of coaches.
I like the work and just taking vacations, taking time away.
You know, it’s something I’ve been doing. I think the past four or five years, I’ll take the first part of January,
just kind of reset and just do some stuff, whether it’s take days off or go through
a cleanse or something. But just I think making time for me. Yeah. And just
making sure I’m good. And I think that that has been this past
year. I think I’ve done more to try to take care of my body and just be in a better place physically
and mentally than I’ve ever done. So. What do you do specifically? I’ve been you know, I’ve had just from playing
ball mode injuries kind of bothered me still. But just in the past. Just try to ignore that
in better shape and be better mentally, physically. I might want to do that myself. And so
it’s inconvenience at times. And, you know, you don’t have to
put yourself in those situations where you just always stressed out and not taking care yourself. So I think
that’s been a struggle for me, but something I’ve definitely gotten better at here later than the last few years. Yeah.
Yeah, I appreciate it. Stop it. And it’s not been easy. And, you know, I can still fall back into some of those. But but
it’s something that we’ll keep working at for sure. Yeah, I’m definitely aware of it since.
So you have a course we can’t talked about called Valued and for the most part, strength
coaches kind of. We’ve been talking. They are overworked and underpaid. We have a lot of young
coaches getting into the profession, but we also have some really good ones are getting help. Yeah.
They’re just done, right. They’re burned out. Low pay, long hours.
They don’t have the support. I feel like I said that earlier. What can we do, coach?
I mean, that’s just as across the market. I don’t think even collegiately s’pore specifically
to increase our value, not just how we’re perceived, but monetarily. How can we what are
some things we can do to do that so we can have a better quality of life? Yeah. I mean, I’ll give you it’s obviously hard to consolidate
what is 10 hours, of course, material, because we walk through all of that step by step by step
in the online course. But just a sample of some of the topics we discussed within
that is one you have to understand that you have to make your job and what you actually do
a lot more complex than meets the eye. And a lot of coaches get wrapped up just in being a strength.
Coach Brian Donelle Boucher talks about this a great deal in the course. He talks about ways
that, you know, you have to bring value to other departments. You want to make sure you want to make your job description
as complex as possible so that you have advocates at every level. You know,
I think that’s a huge problem where Pete. It’s great that people identify with being a strength coach. And listen, like I have a beard. I’m
from Nebraska. I like lifting weights. I get it. Like we have. It’s an awesome thing, but you’re more
than that. And I liken it to a big music guy. And so I. Pardon me if people
don’t like these analogies, but I look at people like Dr. Dre and Jay-Z and these people like
they might have started off as deejays or rappers relative to whichever one you’re discussing. But then look,
Jay-Z’s the first billionaire really in hip hop and one of the only ones in music.
And then Dr. Dre went on to orchestrate a deal with Apple. You know, you look at I
always tell people because people get cheeky with me sometimes saying, are you a coach or a speaker? And I said, both.
And I you know, I just make sure to remind them that Steve Jobs didn’t go to his grave building Mac books.
My career evolution is not only natural, it should be encourage.
So that’s great that there are some coaches that just want to spend the rest of their life coaching eight, nine, 10
groups a day, the rest of their life every day until they’re 70, 80 years old. That’s awesome.
Like a part of me wanted to do that for a while, too. Now I’ve learned I like coaching, but I also like Nanjing
and I like leading and I like doing other. I like having my hands on a lot of things. It makes me better range.
Right. Going back to the very beginning of this. So we teach coaches how to do that. We give them exact
samples, whether they’re in team or private or what have you, of how they can do these things, lateral
strategies. And then we also walk them through how they can communicate and ethically build
a brand in a way that is not gimmicky, not sales, not is or and
that is true to who they truly are. So we walk them through brand strategies and guides.
And I would say most importantly, we teach them about how to identify.
We give what’s called an opportunity matrix. So this opportunity matrix is inevitably coaches are going to be
faced with a wide range of opportunities pass they could take. How do they evaluate which
one is really right for them? So they’re slowing down. So we offer an opportunity matrix. There’s nothing
like this in the field and then we give them a full of full of fuel. Good lord,
a full on burnout guide. So a lot of people think that burnout. I’ll give you a sample
is for people that aren’t committed or in something for the right reasons. Over 50 years of literature. Now,
mind you, coach, maybe. Our field has really been around as a profession for about 60 or samadhi
years, whether you but it’s Alvin Roy or Boyd Epperly or whatever, I’m not talking about how long people have participated
in physical culture. Random Time out, how long Shrinking Edition was a recognized field?
Maybe about 60 years. There is over 50 years alone on burnout literature
that shows it is actually not people that are mentally weak or uncommitted or unsure. Burnout
occurs most in vocations, such as surgeons, nurses, members of
tactical communities, human resources, people that tend to give their all and are very
service and servant based centered. So the most committed are actually the most
likely to burn out. But it’s funny because coaches feel ashamed saying their burned out because they feel like they’re not
in it for the right reasons. Because that’s what we’ve told coaches. So we go through step by step, not
only what the research shows with that, but how to identify stages of burnout. So if you’re currently
in a position where you feel stuck or is toxic, how you can really identify it and then actual
strategies, because it’s not just leave the job. It’s not just, oh, try to seek.
Try to go on vacation because of your burnout. You go on vacation, you’re going to come back to that same environment.
All these things that we’ve been taught have in classic strategies of distancing yourself. Excuse me,
are not really what you want to do. So we give people a full on guide for it. So it really is full on
from getting the job. Advancing within the job or securing your future. That’s everything
that the course walks through. But you’ve got to look at those areas if you want to take steps to the right direction. Yeah, I
love that. I think that the way you use the word that I can’t
use the word similar to you, but it’s reinvent now. And I really do. I feel like
over my career I can look at tangible points or periods of time
where I’ve done different things outside of being a strength coach within my profession. That’s helped
assist me to develop skills in other areas. It’s not only knowing
piqued my interest, but has actually refreshed me in my career. Well, again, think
of what you just said, right? Things outside of training conditioning made you a better strength, coach.
When our athletes come into the weight room, by and large, coach maybe, are they doing sport specific movements?
Are they doing things that directly relate to sport or look like sport in the weight room? So different, you know? Right.
But we know that it improves their ability to performance. Yeah. But then again, you see the hilarity.
Coaches don’t. They don’t. They think the only way to be a good coach is by coaching.
No, there’s indirect methods to become a better coach. That’s all I’m encouraging people
to understand. And we provide resources that help them do that. So for me, it’s been exhausting.
I’ll be honest the last three years to try to convince coaches that they’re doing the
same things they’re telling their athletes not to do. And not only that, they’re getting angry
about it, you know. It’s not taken only by ironic.
What do you do for professional development? Personally? How do you stay sharp? Yeah, well, one is putting
myself out there more. So, you know, I used to just the guy I’d read a book a week. I do this.
I do that. And I realize that that’s great to consume information. But to turn it around and have to teach
it is a completely nother ball. So true. So I’m big like while everybody else right now is kind of talking about how
many books they read a year. I’m going the opposite way. I’m trying to read fewer books and do more with
them. So that has been the benefit, I think, of the biggest kind of growth for me in the past three years
is after I’m done with a resource, whether that’s a book or research article or what have you, that either has
to get turned in and adapted into something that fits with a presentation. FreeBee,
we give out tons of freebie resources on Ardo coaching dot com. But I haven’t learned from that
unless I’ve done it because it’s great if I’m highlighting it and writing. But I think again, creating has
been a huge piece for me. I like to think that. I think when you talk to. I remember
I took more arts for years and I’ll never forget my instructor told me one time
and the light bulb came on. He goes, you can come and I can teach you every night.
He says, but if you really want to get good at this, you need to start teaching what you know. Yeah. And I did coach.
I started my own class. It’s awesome. This was in Boulder, Colorado. He would teach in
Littleton, which was 45 minute drive. So I would take from him
once a week. And then I started my own class in Boulder and I got it up to about seven
or eight people. And actually, you know, at the time, I think my highest ranking build, I got somebody up to
purple belt. I didn’t really know if it was working. One night
after a couple of years, I left my instructor’s class and the students
are. They were they were like, how are you getting good so fast? I go, you’re just.
I’m just doing what you’re doing. I said, Oh, no, you know what? I’m actually teaching. Yeah. Teaching what I was
learning. So when he would teach me something, I would have to go to apply it to different sizes, different genders.
And my teaching style improved my thought process of how I analyzed it. Because he talks
about there’s three views when you learn martial arts. There’s if we’re working together, you’re
doing a technical me. So that’s one where you learn you’re doing number two. I’m receiving it from you.
Yeah. And then the third view is that I’m watching you guys do it right. And that was the
impetus behind doing like we do these two day workshops now called The Apprenticeship, where it’s that I
realized that I was going around and speaking given a lot of 60, 90 minute keynotes, what have you. But
then I’d still get the same questions again and again and again. So I’m like, right, I’m either doing a really poor job of communicating
this or it’s just not the right environment and what have you. And, you know, it’s interesting.
Now we run events that are 10 percent PowerPoint, 90 percent interactive. And,
you know, coaches have to take their own. They have to engage. They have to get involved. They have to get up and do role-playing and improv
stuff and and video breakdowns. And it. I mean, teaching is the highest form of learning. So that’s
what I focus on in my professional development. I also seek I go to people outside
of our profession and because, again, most of the issues our profession faces have already been dealt with
in other fields and vise versa. I pay. I spend a lot more money, to be honest.
And it’s not that I listen. I have a kid. I fund my own business. Right. And I live a pretty,
pretty simple life. Like I’m not rolling in it. I maybe make $2 a book from every book sold on Amazon.
That book costs me twenty five thousand dollars to write. I’m being fully transparent. Each of those
courses cost twenty five thousand dollars to create. Imagine that. Putting that on your credit card. Being
scared out of your mind because you’re creating something that’s completely dependent on you that hadn’t even been created yet.
But I had to secure the resources for the people that did the filming and all those things. And then it took me eight to
almost blacked out there for a moment because I’m trying to remember where we’re at. But doing all these things that there were real consequences
if I didn’t apply and didn’t reflect and all that, like helped me tremendously.
And I just think that people need to up the stakes, like, oh, that’s where you got to invest. So like most
coaches will say, I don’t have the money to do this. None of us. You’re never going to have enough money. You’re never gonna
have enough money or time. When I look at is what I don’t have is time or money to waste. So I started
looking at on average was spending, let’s say thirty five hundred dollars a year, going to certain conferences,
flights, hotels, food admission fee. And I started looking at like a lot of these have just
become redundant. A lot of them, they’re just networking vacations where people barely even went to the talks.
You know, they it just seemed like nobody was going. And so I’m like, where can I reinvest this money elsewhere? So
I think coaches, when they say, oh, I don’t have five hundred dollars or this or 300 for that. Yes, you do.
That’s usually the cup like the cost of a cup of coffee or $3 cup of coffee a day for six
months. Right. Or less than that. And so I think people you’re going to spend that money anyway reevaluate
because so much as free coach, so much as free. Now when people say, I don’t have the money for X. I wonder
what they’re spending it on. Because think about it like if you can get so much education for free now,
why can’t you afford the one percent of it that isn’t free? You know, because even when I made ten thousand dollars
as a G-A, I’m a one time I saved up enough to go to an eight hundred dollar clinic. And that clinic was crazy.
It was great because it gave me more ideas. It was worth sixteen hundred to me, five coaches just kind of quit being scared
and making excuses. And the way said, if you don’t bet on yourself, why would anybody else bet on you? Right. You
can’t find 200 bucks or twenty bucks. Yeah. Like you said, there’s so many resources.
You don’t have to have a big budget to do that. So I totally agree. And it’s definitely
a passion of mine. So I’m fired up about a lot of this hits close to home because it’s we’re trying to change.
So I know I’m rambling, but you know, it is what it is. One last fun question as we kind of get to the end here.
If we were rock, would Brett be in a car or whatever? You got your playlist. What would we
see on the playlist, coach? Oh, yeah. So it’s public on Spotify. You can check it. So what? I’m a
big hip hop fan, like true true lyrics. So I’m in that about I’m not I like Nas, Eminem,
Jay-Z, 50 Cent, you know, like. Yeah, like I’m big on on older and
and like Notorious B.I.G. I’m also really big on just some classics. Bobby Darin,
Frank Sinatra, Jim Croce, my dad, you. So listen to that stuff all the time, you know, but I listen
to a wide variety, just depends what situation you catch me. And now lately actually what I’ve been training to
and I know you didn’t ask this question. I used to train exclusively to like hip hop rock. What have you.
Now, if anything, I’m doing more like no lyrics, kind of these like
chill. I think you would call like a lounge music. It’s just as chill, ambient constant tempo
and it’s very low key. So I think they call like on Pandora, it’s like chill house. And because
I notice that so much of what I’m doing puts my nervous system at a 10. Whether it’s speaking podcasts,
whatever, so you don’t want to do that, why trios bring a bad guy and downgrade you? I didn’t realize that until
a couple of years ago. I just like I’m way more fatigued from my training than I should be. And there are certain times you’re
like, I love lift and heavy, but like, I just didn’t feel like I had the capacity. Now, like,
I could will it out like your bike just didn’t want any of that. So I’ve started being more mindful of how to keep myself
on this thin line between sympathetic and parasympathetic because otherwise I’m always rocking it to 10.
Yeah. I mean, I think you even look at athletes today, you’ve got to find an outlet. You can’t just always be
on. And I was just. You just drained. Listen to me now. I’m still on 10. That’s right.
Coach, as we close up here, just I know you mentioned it. You’ve got an apprenticeship
coming up here soon in Atlanta. Just quick little snip that you were talking to me about
that today. It sounds so amazing. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you talked about certifications like I just don’t I don’t know
right now that I believe in the idea of certification of this idea that you’re an expert after coming to somebody to
day. So we call it an apprenticeship to allude to here. The learning. It’s a process, right? Yeah. So
highly interactive to day full on about power dynamics, social skills, being a better communicator,
what the research says about being an effective leader. And it’s really the only thing of its kind and strained
conditioning in coaching right now. And that we do improv, film break, small group discussions,
tons of different things. And it’s got the for like the first social skill based evaluation for coaches.
We’ve had physical therapists, members of the FBI, straight coaches, athletic directors. We’re
doing a couple in services for teams, but these are open to anybody. Male, female, 19 year old. Eighty
five year old, whatever. If you want to learn how to be a better communicator and thus a leader coming,
get nasty. It sounds great. Coach, I definitely look forward to hear more about that.
If the audience wants to connect with you, follow you. If they don’t know where you are, what’s the easiest way to
find you? Easier. Straight up is just art of coaching. Dot com. Everything is
there. Podcasts, courses. Web site newsletter. Art of coaching. Dot com. You
can find it all. That’s awesome. Coach Brett, you’re the man.
We absolutely love having you in Austin. Likewise. You’re dear to us. You’ve definitely had an influence
and impact on us as a staff and we look forward to working more with you in the future. And we appreciate
all you’re doing for all the professionals other keep making an impact. Coach, we appreciate you. Love you guys. We
love you, too. We’re out of here. This is a team behind the team podcast. I’m Danny mayb- and who’s with
me today. Brett Bartholomew Hulu.com. Thanks so much
for tuning in and listening to this episode of The Team Behind the Team podcast
for future episodes. Go to i-Tunes Spotify, Google Podcast or
Stitcher. We definitely want to keep having great guests on the show and great content.
So if you have a moment, please go to i-Tunes, leave a rating and review and let us know how we’re
doing. Hamdani, me and thanks so much for tuning in.