E39 | Breaking out of your “In-Group”

[00:00:00] Donnie: Welcome to the team behind the team podcast. I am your host, Donnie Maib. This is the monthly show focused on building conversations around the team based model approach to ethic, performance, strength and conditioning, sports medicine, sports science, mental health and wellness, and sports nutrition.

[00:00:24] Hello and welcome back to the team Behind the Team podcast. I’m your host, Donnie Maib, and we are already nearing 2023. And man, I can’t believe it’s coming by that fast. I got Coach Joe Krawczyk, our co-host is back in the house. Coach Joe, what is going on, coach?

[00:00:41] Joseph Krawczyk: It’s, uh, end of the fall, craziest time of the year.

[00:00:44] Uh, not everyone’s in season, but it feels like it. Uh, but I love it. I love the fall. It’s, uh, it’s a good time and it cools down here in Texas, so I love that too. Uh, but I’m doing great.

[00:00:55] Donnie: I’m excited, coach. Uh, Christmas right around the corner. And, you know, [00:01:00] this month, uh, we have a special treat for our guests and, uh, for our listeners, we have a guest today.

[00:01:06] Um, if you could say we went to podcast Heaven, today will be that day, uh, when introduce our guests here. Um, I met our guests, uh, several years ago in little spoiler here in Sydney, Australia, uh, speaking at the, a sca and had, was had a chance to sit down and grab a beer with him. And through a cordial, uh, friend, we were connected.

[00:01:30] So, without further ado, Coach Dave Joyce, welcome to the

[00:01:34] David Joyce: show. Thanks, coach Maib.. Great to be here, man.

[00:01:37] Donnie: Coach, I’m, I’m being serious. This is a special treat, not just for our listeners, but for myself and Joe. I think we’ve really died and gone to podcast heaven today, . So, how’s the trip been so far in? How’s everything been?

[00:01:49] David Joyce: It’s, it’s been fantastic being here for, uh, I think this is the third, third day, um, third day. I think I’ve probably had one sleep in that time. So I’m, I’m slowly [00:02:00] getting, you know, readjusted to, to Texas time zone cause it’s obviously a bit different to, to Sydney. But, uh, we’ve had a brilliant time, um, incredible hospitality, great food, breakfast tacos this morning.

[00:02:11] You know, big, big Austin, uh, yes, has been ticked. So, you know, we feel like when we’re, we’re locals.

[00:02:20] Donnie: Please your beautiful wife. Uh, hopefully she won’t be mad if we put some pounds on you as you return back to Australia.

[00:02:26] David Joyce: The food. No, I’ve been, I’ve been starving myself in preparation for this. So , he’s

[00:02:30] Joseph Krawczyk: a good coach.

[00:02:31] He’s a good coach. We’re gonna back to baseline. Yeah,

[00:02:33] Donnie: that’s right. Baseline. He’s got it all. Pure eyes out as eating. . Well, awesome coach. Glad to have you here. I’m on, uh, kick us off on the show here and just, uh, can you just take a moment? Uh, listers that, that are on the show that are here. And in just give us a moment, like what have you been up to lately?

[00:02:49] Maybe even talk about where you’ve come from real briefly, and then what are you currently doing right now?

[00:02:53] David Joyce: Yeah, catch us up. So I’m the, um, founder and principal consultant for a, uh, [00:03:00] a strategy and decision making firm called Sun Aing, which I established a couple of years ago. And basically our aim is to, uh, improve decision making primarily in sports teams.

[00:03:11] And so that may be with athletes, but it’s often with coaches and administrators as well. So, um, my background as you know, is I, I started life or started my professional career as a, a, um, physiotherapist and then strength coach. And I love the, the physical therapy side of things because I love. Problem solving bit, but, um, it, it was an incomplete examination of performance.

[00:03:39] So I, I, I wanted to add that bit. Mm-hmm. . So I, I did all my strength and conditioning work, masters in snc. Um, so I got a much broader, uh, view of what performance is, and I’m, I’m lucky it means that I can speak two languages, you know, I can speak. Medicine, I can [00:04:00] speak performance and, and, and bridge those gaps.

[00:04:03] And probably for the last, uh, decade or a bit more, I’ve been a, um, a performance director. So running sports, me sports science, recovery psychology, nutrition, um, strengthening conditioning teams that that box and dice, um, in professional teams around the world. Um, uk, um, Turkey, China, Australia. And I’ve just been, I’ve been really fortunate to have a, a series of great jobs and meet some incredible people in our career.

[00:04:35] And I think that’s one of the great things about what we do, isn’t it, Donny, that we get to meet so many great people. So, um, that’s, that takes us to, to current day really. That’s good

[00:04:45] Donnie: stuff.

[00:04:46] Joseph Krawczyk: So Dave, you’ve, you’ve led performance teams at high level for years, you know, from your experience, what are some of the traits and characteristics you look for when leading highly successful teams?

[00:04:58] David Joyce: Do you know what, I’ve, I’ve given a lot of thought [00:05:00] to this Joe and I, I guess there, there are, it probably depends a little bit on your definition of success, right? Um, because you can have a really successful team, um, that. Is not getting loads of wins, but according to its expectations is actually a really high performing team.

[00:05:24] Um, but equally you can have a team that, uh, actually gets some wins on the weekend in spite of the team behind the team. Right? And that’s why I think that looking at wins and losses is probably, um, it’s natural for people to do, but it’s probably a bit too blunt to measure. But I guess the things which really resonate with me, and I see this in business as well as sport, is the really high performing teams have got a clear sense of purpose.

[00:05:58] They know where they’re going, [00:06:00] right? They’ve got a really clear sense of belonging. And we were talking about this yesterday, weren’t we? Coach that? Um, it’s a, it’s almost intangible, but you, you kind of, when you walk into a place, there’s a bit of an energy about it and you, there’s just cheeky little high fives and for no real reason, but it just reinforces this sense of belonging.

[00:06:21] And I think belonging’s a really important bit. So, um, everyone feels that they are trusted, that they’ve got autonomy, that they’ve got purpose, um, and that they’ve got this, this sense of inclusion that, that they get the most out of them. Um, so I think, I think they’re the, they’re the real characteristics, but it boils down to belonging and trust.

[00:06:48] And that is augmented by this sense of real clarity of. Of, um, expectations and real clarity of roles. So everyone knows what they’re supposed to be [00:07:00] doing. Everyone’s got some processes that they, they follow. Um, and, you know, there’s, there’s just really good communication that surrounds all of that. Yeah.

[00:07:11] Um, so a long answer to a short question. Yeah,

[00:07:14] Joseph Krawczyk: no, it sounds like too, it’s, uh, I like how you said, you know, you measure success differently, right? And it’s almost like you could think of Jim Collins as good to great model. You know, it’s, get the wrong people off the bus, get the right people on the bus.

[00:07:26] Maybe that’s stage one of success. You know, that year the net gains and the profits might not show up in your business model year one, but your success is you have the right people in the right places. Down the line, you start seeing those profits. And then in sports, you know, we equate that to

[00:07:42] David Joyce: wins. Uh, absolutely.

[00:07:44] And you, you see that, you see that in all manners of business as well. Right? So if you look at Amazon for a long time, they weren’t profitable, but they stayed the course because they had this business model in mind. And they were really clear with their shareholders about [00:08:00] what they were doing over the long term, and they stuck to their strategy.

[00:08:03] And ultimately, you know, we know the success story that Amazon is. Um, unfortunately in sport, we, we’d often don’t get the opportunity to do that, to live out that long term vision because of, you know, pressures in media and sponsors and, and donors and those sorts of things. But the successful organizations have got a real, um, long-term strategy, but an adaptability with their plans to within that strategy.

[00:08:30] Right.

[00:08:30] Donnie: Right. I had a question. Um, Kind of on our walk over here to the studio, we were talking a little bit about facilities and in the book, uh, the Culture Code, Daniel Coyle, he talks a little bit about, cuz you mentioned like this sense of belonging, like the high fives and the camaraderie. Cuz as you were just talking, I could just visualize there is a, there is an element in really successful organizations and teams where there’s this camaraderie and sense of trust and like, you wanna be there, [00:09:00] right?

[00:09:01] So, so in your experience, you’ve traveled the globe, seen all kinds of different teams. How big of an impact in your opinion, from what you’ve seen, does the layout of facilities and structure of like rooms and you know, how far, how close offices are, does that weigh into success in your opinion? What would you.

[00:09:22] David Joyce: Yeah, I think it, I think it actually does. Um, and I’ve given quite a bit of consideration to this when designing facilities as well, because what you want is the opportunity for serendipitous conversations for people to bump into each other, to to meet, to chat. I’m a huge believer in, in meeting or over food and just eating and, and having a drink and that there’s something about that commun.

[00:09:52] um, sharing of, of, of food that unlocks conversations. Um, [00:10:00] and if you’ve got a facility, which, you know, there’s loads of barriers to that because there are, there are stairs there, you know, there’s a, there’s a long walk between sports medicine and strength and conditioning. Um, even if it’s a short walk, you know, it’s, they’re, they’re almost invisible barriers.

[00:10:19] And we were just talking about it earlier that, um, if you can, you, what you want is everyone on the same level, um, with opportunities for, for serendipitous conversations. Um, the opportunities for, for people to overhear your conversations as well and be able to chime in and, and, and have, um, I, I think it’s really helpful in problem solving, cuz Oh, I just, I just overheard you say this and we’ve tried that and, and all these sorts of things.

[00:10:52] Um, we’re we’re funny creatures. As humans, it’s, there’s a set of stairs, even if it’s 10 stairs [00:11:00] is, is a way bigger barrier than what it should be. So I, I think there is a bit to the design of the facility that can either activate or impede that communication flow. Yeah. To your

[00:11:12] Donnie: point, I think even coming out this pandemic outta Covid, more people have been, they want, they don’t, they wanna text.

[00:11:20] They don’t wanna talk, they wanna do something virtual. And I don’t, I mean, that can work, but I, I, I fully agree. I think a sit down, face to face dialogue gets a lot more done because of the relational rapport and trust that you build and camaraderie. I think that helps the time.

[00:11:35] David Joyce: So, so Zoom’s been great and teams and all those sort of platforms have been great, but they’re not a replacement, you know, I think they’re, they’re, they were fantastic when we didn’t have anything.

[00:11:48] But, you know, the, the conversations, the depth of conversations, the ability to understand body language and the nuances of, of, of, of people is, [00:12:00] is clearly best done in 3d.

[00:12:02] Donnie: Yeah. The book, again, you just made me think Tony Shay, um, delivering Happiness. Yeah. Yeah. So he, obviously, he’s, he passed away not too long ago, but he’s quoted in that book, he, the way he structured his design of his facility, for his staff and employees.

[00:12:18] He wanted to have 100 or more, he called ’em collisions per day. Yeah. Right. Where they’re interacting and talking. And he was, I think it’s him that quoted in the book, like, if they’re on a different floor, they might as well be on a different planet. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I just thought that was so profound.

[00:12:32] David Joyce: Yeah, no, I agree with that. But obviously some of, some of the listeners, um, may not be able to change their environment. Right. So, um, If the listener is, is going, oh, that’s great, but you know, I’m, I’m in a gym here and there’s officers. What, what can you do there? There are actually things that you can do about it.

[00:12:51] You’ve just gotta be intentional about curating those collisions, right? Mm-hmm. , that’s it. Yeah. Um, you know, changing the, the structure of [00:13:00] facility is not easy. Um, but there are, there are clearly things that you can do to, to make sure that, you know, we all work out together or, you know, we’ve got a, a black box meeting at, you know, two o’clock every Thursday, whatever it is.

[00:13:14] Um, there’s, you definitely have to organize and be very intentional about how you do that bit. That’s good.

[00:13:23] Joseph Krawczyk: Yeah. Isn’t it crazy how now we’re, we’re, we’re still picking up the pieces from Covid where we’ve got so reliant on like the Zoom and all the electronics, where now we’re thinking, okay, how do we , how do we organize our rooms to just create social.

[00:13:38] Yeah. Interactions again, because we’ve gone so far in one direction, it, it’s just, uh, mind blowing me. Cause I, I think, you know. It used to happening all the time. You know, people overhear conversation I was having. They’re like, oh, did you think about, you know, looking at this and boom, problem solved. Yeah.

[00:13:53] And uh, it just doesn’t seem like it happens as often anymore, or we’re, maybe it’s coming back. It’s, it’s [00:14:00] just, uh, it’s crazy how. This lingering effect from C is, is is probably gonna stay around for

[00:14:05] a

[00:14:05] David Joyce: while. Well, and and a lot of the things that you just said there, Joe, is not, they’re not necessarily the product of bad intentions, it’s just Right.

[00:14:11] You know, we get stuck in our own little world and we, yeah, we’re beavering away on our little, on our little, um, uh, project. But there are times where you’ve gotta get off the dance floor and get onto the balcony and see what other people are doing. So, um, you know, a really good model is what 3m, you know, the, um, the, the company 3M do is that they, they encourage people to go and, and you.

[00:14:36] Invent things, but they’ve gotta share it, which is how we’ve got Post-it notes and those sorts of things because they’ve been intentional about curating those sorts of conversations that can spark creativity, um, and creativity and problem solving. We know they best occur when you’re having conversations where your mind is free.

[00:14:58] There’s not an agenda like there is on [00:15:00] Zoom because you’ve got a time. That’s why I love chatting over food, because you can allow your mind to wander.

[00:15:06] Donnie: What was the coach refreshed my memory, I visit the Institute of Sport. Was it the, when I was in Sydney, the Nor is it the and

[00:15:14] David Joyce: New South Wales Institute of Sport.

[00:15:15] What would say it again?

[00:15:16] Donnie: In, in Swiss. That’s it. So I forget the, the gentleman that showed me around, but. , they don’t have like individual offices. They all share a room. Yeah. And he got, he went into some of what you’re saying, like they want to have open dialogue amongst different roles and staff, you know, not have the strength coaches here.

[00:15:35] And anyway, it just, it was fascinating, you know, to see the layout and the the mentality

[00:15:39] David Joyce: and the approach. Yeah. And it’s, it’s funny as well because you can, you can tell a lot about an organization, by the way, the real estate is structured. So, um, you can, the, the organization may say, oh, we collaboration, that’s our number one thing.

[00:15:54] And then when you look at the floor plan, you’ve got the physios here, you’ve got the [00:16:00] strength and initiatives over there, you’ve got, um, so they’re not actually living up to their espoused values. Mm-hmm. , it’s a bit like the, the best way to, to look at the values of an organization is to examine their financial statements.

[00:16:15] Where they spend the money. Where they spend the money. Right. Because that’s, that’s a clear signal of their priorities. It’s a values, you can have all the values on the wall. I like that. Yeah. But the truth is on the balance sheet. That’s it.

[00:16:27] Donnie: That’s it. Um, on the flip side, so you’ve obviously seen very successful teams and, uh, departments.

[00:16:36] How have you handled coach as a leader and as a professional? How have you managed when things aren’t great? And I think specifically what would be your advice on dealing with staff that are either not getting the job done or maybe not working well together? How would you

[00:16:53] David Joyce: address some of that? Yeah. Uh, look, I’ve, I’ve just learnt by a load of mistakes.

[00:16:57] Um, I’ve done it really poorly at times. [00:17:00] Um, poorly with in, with the consequences of, you know, making a situation worse or making myself worth worse. Um, but I guess that’s the way you learn, right? So I guess the biggest lessons for me are. That, um, it’s always, life’s a series of up and downs, you know, it’s like, it’s like a yo-yo.

[00:17:24] And what you want is, um, to be able to, I I, I, I heard something the other day about you look at the stock market. So the stock market is a bit like, uh, a kid with a yoyo walking up the stairs with a yoyo. So the Yoyo is the stock market. It’s going up and down, right? Yeah. And it’s easy to, to, um, get seduced by the ups and the downs of the yoyo.

[00:17:54] But ultimately over time, what you should be doing is looking at the kid and the kid is walking [00:18:00] upstairs. Yeah. He’s elevating. So ultimately the stock market will, you know, get to the. But we get seduced on looking at the, the yo-yo. And it’s a bit like that with the question you just asked, is that if you’ve got that purpose and you know where you’re going, you can um, you can have that balcony view, but if you don’t have that purpose and you lose sight of that balcony view, you tend to ride the ups and downs of the yo-yo, which I think is inherently unhealthy.

[00:18:29] So I’ve, um, I’ve learned over the journey to when I’m, when I find myself too close to the dance floor, like really down granular is to step out. And go, okay, am I still walking up the stairs? Mm. Is, is the team still walking up the stairs? And I found that really helpful. The only way I can, so the best way for me to do it is to make sure that I’m rested, to make sure that I’m, I’m still training to make [00:19:00] sure that, um, my, my bigger, not my bigger, my other priorities are in order, you know, my family and those sorts of things.

[00:19:10] When I lose sight of that bigger picture, that’s when I just get too focused on the yo-yo, um, up and down. So, um, and in terms of conflict, the reality is we’re in sport. Um, we are dealing with a whole heap of alpha people, you know, very strong personalities, very like they professional sport selects for alpha people.

[00:19:35] There’s not too many non alphas. In professional sport, there’s clearly variations. There’s alpha, alpha, and you know, your head coaches and your performance directors, they tend to be your alpha alphas. But, um, everyone, everyone’s that sort of personality or many people. Yeah, and I

[00:19:54] Donnie: think to, to your point too, I think that’s the real art, right?

[00:19:57] Is like how do you manage all the [00:20:00] different personalities and egos and expectations? I mean, think, I mean, you’re, you’re a parent, you have two beautiful children, right? Um, and I have four daughters. Joe has, Joe has a young, young son, but. I can’t believe how different all four my girls are. And we manage and lead them all a little differently.

[00:20:21] We don’t just, you know, that’s right. Like they say, it was the quote, the, I forget where I saw the managers lead. Everybody the same, but leaders adapt their style to, to each individual. Nice. And I think that’s, that’s a, an art,

[00:20:32] David Joyce: you know? Yeah. It’s funny isn’t it? When when you s you hear, you hear some parents say, I’ve got two kids.

[00:20:39] We parent them exactly the same and they’re completely different. Um, and I push back on that cause I just do not think you can possibly parent two kids the same. I completely

[00:20:50] Donnie: agree. There’s, it’s no, my, my four daughters couldn’t be more extremely different than each other.

[00:20:55] David Joyce: The only way you, the only way that could possibly be true is if [00:21:00] you were totally hands off with all of them.

[00:21:03] Donnie: coach. Funny story, just real quick. When, uh, the, I had the two little ones. Um, I, I love to take ’em by their legs and swing ’em around in the air and spin ’em and drop ’em on the bed. The oldest one loved it. I, this is what I learned. This kind of started learning this. The second one I grabbed and did that and she freaked out and froze up like a Yeah, right, like a zombie and was crying and she did not like it.

[00:21:24] She was,

[00:21:24] David Joyce: she was 21 at the time though, right? She was 21. . .

[00:21:28] Donnie: I’m strong If I could do that. Coach. This one? They, yeah, this one. They were probably, I don’t know, four, four or five probably. Uh, I could still pick ’em up, but, uh, that’s funny. But anyway, one of ’em loved it. One of ’em hat. One of ’em, I did it a lot, but one of’em, I never did it again.

[00:21:42] Right. So

[00:21:43] David Joyce: it all different. And it would be, it would be poor parenting if you kept doing it. Right. So you’ve gotta respect, uh, so that’s like, that’s the principles of adaptive leadership or adaptive parenting. So you go, I can’t be the same leader for in, in exactly the same, [00:22:00] um, all the time. Right? So that’s, you know, people say, oh, what’s your leadership style?

[00:22:06] Your leadership style should be a reflection of the context that you’re in as well as the people that you’re trying to lead. Cuz if you are fixed, you’re not gonna be, you’ll be a good leader for, for exactly this particular niche. Mm-hmm. , which is 10% of all the niche. So if we look at, uh, like a good example is Winston Churchill.

[00:22:27] So, Winston Churchill, um, often thought of as being this great wartime, you know, one, one of the great leaders of all time. So led, led Britain and, and some of the allies through World War ii. Um, what people forget is that he lost an election six months after the end of World War ii. So he was his war hero, but he was really well adapted to being a war leader, but a terrible peace time leader.[00:23:00]

[00:23:01] And he wasn’t able to adapt the, the, the best leaders are able to adapt their style, um, according to the circumstances. Yeah, you nailed

[00:23:08] Donnie: it, coach. Um, when you just said context, cuz just coming back from this conference, uh, you know, meet with athletic directors and different leaders in college athletics.

[00:23:21] These search firms will be directed to go out and they want to go, what are the high level problems we’re facing now? Who is the most equipped, suited, and skilled enough to address those problems that we have currently? And then that’s kind of how they shape and contour their sh their, their search for their next leader.

[00:23:38] David Joyce: Yeah. Context. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and it’s an ability to, to adapt your leadership according to the context. So you may need a leader, like a head coach. Um, you may need them for this group of people right now. Yeah. , but it needs to sit, needs to suit the overall strategy of the organization because [00:24:00] if, if you’re looking to change that group or you know, move conferences or what, whatever it is you need, you need people that can go along on that journey with you.

[00:24:11] So, um, that, that’s, that’s why this strategy and decision making space that I’m in is just so interesting cuz I, I’m deep in this world. It’s fascinating.

[00:24:19] Donnie: Yeah. I

[00:24:20] Joseph Krawczyk: love these topics. Yeah. It’s interesting how you brought up Churchill. I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, I think what kind of led, you know, I don’t wanna say downfall, but to him getting, um, not getting reelected was that fog that happened in London right, was like a tragedy where the fog and the chemicals in the air from the storm got trapped in the city and people were dying from getting sick and, you know, they couldn’t see.

[00:24:42] So they’d get in car accidents and stuff and it’s, it’s amazing that he could handle the tragedies. Of warfare, like being bombed by the Germans. And, uh, but then this fog comes in and, you know, it is just a different time. And he, he, he wasn’t able to negotiate that issue, you know, and

[00:24:59] David Joyce: it’s an adaptability [00:25:00] place.

[00:25:00] It’s, it’s, it’s the, it’s the reason why of, you know, the, the thing that I really want in our kids as they grow up is to be adaptable, right? Is to be able to, to roll with the punches and to make the most of what you’ve been given. Mm-hmm. . Cause life doesn’t work, that you just go, right, well I’m gonna do this no matter what.

[00:25:20] Mm-hmm. , um, lost way too complex and throws far too many punches for you to be able to do that successfully for too long. Yeah, for sure.

[00:25:30] Joseph Krawczyk: So, let’s, uh, return, uh, to, well, let’s talk return to play for a moment. Um, how would you as a director lead all the different areas to make sure everyone is communicating about an athlete or to make sure that they’re on the track for the rehab process?

[00:25:45] David Joyce: So it’s funny, isn’t it? So we, we go into a technical question like this, but the reality is it branches straight off the conversation that we’ve just had, right? Which is, so what’s, what’s the purpose? What’s, what’s the end goal here? What are we, what are we [00:26:00] looking for? And, and going backwards from there.

[00:26:04] And, and everyone on the team that have input into that feeling like that they’re heard, that they’ve got, um, they, they own a piece of that puzzle that they’ve got absolute role clarity. I guess the, the mistake that I’ve made in the past and, and I see, um, you know, it happens everywhere, is it is still very siloed.

[00:26:28] Okay? So the nutritionist needs to do this and right, they’re, they’re responsible for these boxes. They’ve got a tick and then they, the, the sport scientists, then the strength and conditioning and, and they’re all in the silos and they work really well like that. Um, because it gives role clarity. The problem is that a performance or an outcome doesn’t work like that because it’s all interconnected, right?

[00:26:54] So, um, you know, as an example, the, the strength coach [00:27:00] will often get a lot of the credit when a, uh, when an athlete breaks a squat record or whatever, right? And I’ve always been big on the fact that performance doesn’t exist, um, as an island because that athlete wouldn’t have been able to do that if they weren’t properly fueled.

[00:27:19] That athlete wouldn’t have been able to do that if their lumber mechanics were no good. Mm-hmm. . So everyone actually needs to take some credit there. And the freeing thing about that is that it, it joins everyone together, but it also doesn’t isolate someone if someone’s injured. Frequently we’ll go, oh, someone got injured odds.

[00:27:40] It’s this person’s fault. It’s far too, that’s far too blunt. So I like people knowing what their job is, how they can impact, but also being able to know what are the connections that are required to, to produce this, this performance, which is, you know, return to play in this instance. Um, I think [00:28:00] one of the, the great areas that we need to continue to explore is the role of, of, um, of the, the psyche and, and mental performance here.

[00:28:10] Um, which is a really, really important piece. Um, and it’s something that, you know, I’m working on at the moment with a company called Optimize. And I think that’s, that’s a, that’s a really important piece is how do we get not just the physical boxes ticked, but how do we get the, uh, or the mentality, the, the, the cognitive components, the, the emotional components altogether as well.

[00:28:36] Um, so we, we start with that working backwards. What, what are the, what’s the requirements of that athlete when they return, what are they expected to do? How do we put in a buffer? So what’s the, what’s the, what’s the fat? So if, if we’re expecting them to run 12 sprints in a game, are they capable of doing [00:29:00] 17?

[00:29:01] You know, what’s the worst case scenario type thing? Um, And that stuff is really important if you’ve got the metrics to support it, and you’ve got the metrics to know where there are now. Yeah. So it’s like a, um, it’s a gap analysis and you plug it in that way. Um, so, you know, I’m, I’m a big proponent of the performance planning process where everyone goes, okay, so this is the end state we’re after, okay, how do we get there?

[00:29:34] And everyone who’s got an impact sits around and tries to solve that puzzle with some contingencies. Okay, we’re gonna go down this route and if this doesn’t work, this is our kill point. So kill point is, you know, we, we are hitting a block here. What’s our contingency, what’s our plan be? How do we move from there?

[00:29:56] And then, Um, communicating that to [00:30:00] all the relevant stakeholders. So you’ve got the coaching involved, you’ve got the athlete involved. Um, it, nothing exists in a silo, so I, I’m a, I’m a huge proponent of every, everyone contributing that to that entire process.

[00:30:14] Joseph Krawczyk: Yeah. It’s funny, I just had an athlete last week, um, asked me about, you know, coming back from injury, you know, when, when do athletes, you know, I guess get released from the athletic trainer to come back to the weight room?

[00:30:25] I was like, well, it’s, it’s not really that simple. You know, if, if, if my opinion, if it’s done right, there’s like that grayer in the middle where, you know, it’s, it’s like a handoff, like you’re spending maybe 70% of the time with at 30% of the time with strength coach. And slowly that percentages start to shift toward the strength coach where you’re healthy and you’re mainly in the weight room, but there’s a lot more things in the weight room than there is up in the, you know, in the training area, you know, with all the tables and stuff.

[00:30:51] So sometimes they, they gotta utilize that and have the strength coach help ’em out and. It’s really should be a lot of back and forth like you were saying. And, and so it’s [00:31:00] just kind of funny sometimes the kids don’t see it that way. They think like, oh, I just go here and then eventually I’ll just be done and I’m gonna go right back into it.

[00:31:06] It’s not quite

[00:31:07] David Joyce: binary, isn’t it? Yeah. I mean, I think the reality is it should bleed into each other. So I’ve always liked my strength coaches involved in rehab at Day Zero. Mm-hmm. , and I’ve liked my physios involved with the, with the performing athletes as well. So I don’t think there is this simple line of injured, not injured.

[00:31:24] Right. Um, or Ill, or healthy, you know, there it’s, it, it’s not, it’s not, um, binary in that way. Mm-hmm. . Um, and there’s just so much that can be gained by, uh, a physio and athletic trainer looking at healthy athletes going, okay, so this is what, this is what we are trying to get back to. And you can spot some differences.

[00:31:48] And there’s just so much value in the strength coach and the sport scientists with the injured athletes because. , you’re training an athlete, not an injury. Right. So yeah, it, it [00:32:00] should be bled through a hundred percent.

[00:32:02] Donnie: Did you guys, um, I’m curious, did you ever have any, like, specific protocols or policies on, like, how you, was it maybe different with every team?

[00:32:13] Like how you made sure everybody was like, talking, meeting, like, I know we’ve kind of talked about that already, but can you kind of give us, peel back a layer to specifically what was, how did you operate and make it really, really,

[00:32:23] David Joyce: really nice? Yeah. Um, so every meeting would be there. There’d be a clear purpose of what we were trying to do.

[00:32:30] So first thing in the morning as a performance group, we would get together and, and it would be pretty much, uh, an assessment of what we were planning for the day. You know, we’d go through every player, you know, um, what’s, what’s their training? What’s their training load like? What are we expecting in terms of distance, run weights, all these sorts of things.

[00:32:51] Um, um, who’s, who’s got accountability for these things? Tick bang, right? Move on. And those things would be quite, um, quite [00:33:00] neat. The, the bigger discussions would be held for, um, if there was a play that we didn’t want to be doing all of training. So you’re going, okay, we’re gonna, what drills are they gonna do?

[00:33:11] What are we, what’s the expectation of that drill in terms of how far, how fast, you know, all those sorts of things. Okay, we can, we are gonna allow him or her to do, you know, 15% of that drill or, or whatever it is, or, you know, non-contact. And so really clear lines of communication there. So that’s kind of the, the daily one.

[00:33:32] But then weekly we would have a review of all the athletes and go, right, where are they at according to their overall plan. Oh, that’s good. Yeah, I like that. Um, and in that I would include, Um, the coaches to go, right, so what, what do you want? What do we want? Where’s the, where are the negotiation points?

[00:33:51] What are the non-negotiables from either party? Um, and then I would sit down with the, the head coach and the, [00:34:00] the, um, the, the football manager and, you know, weekly and usually on the day off. And we would just chew the fat, you know, where, where are we at? What’s, what’s this athlete struggling with? What’s this strength coach struggling with?

[00:34:16] You know, where, where’s the conflict points? Where’s the pinch points? What’s going really well? Um, again, usually over food to have breakfast or whatever. And a relaxed way of just trying to unlock some of the pinch points. So, uh, I don’t love lots of meetings and I’m really clear about what I want out of each meeting and who’s got decisions to make if it’s, if a meeting doesn’t have a decision.

[00:34:44] To be made. Um, it’s usually a meeting that doesn’t need to exist.

[00:34:49] Donnie: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Because you have a purpose and you have a desired outcome as well. Yeah.

[00:34:55] David Joyce: Unless, unless it’s just giving information. [00:35:00] Um, you know, I, I would always make sure that every meeting there was a, there was a clear decision to be made.

[00:35:08] That’s good. That’s good.

[00:35:09] Joseph Krawczyk: Dave, I need to come work with you. There’s a lot of food at these meetings.

[00:35:12] Donnie: I know. I like, I like the sound of this . Um, changing gears a little bit, you have written several books, uh, high Performance, high Performance Training for Sport Right. Has been a best seller. Um, couple questions here on this one.

[00:35:31] What got you started in writing books? And then take us through a little bit of that process and timeline.

[00:35:38] David Joyce: Yeah. So, um, Three books. Um, there’s High Performance Training for Sport, then the second edition, which is basically a brand new, so I call, I count that as another one. And then Sports Injury Prevention and Rehabilitation.

[00:35:53] And I did with my co-author Dan Ludon, who’s now, um, performance Director at City Football Groups. I’m [00:36:00] Manchester City, New York City, you know, all those sorts of football clubs. Um, what got us started was this belief. There, there are lots of textbooks out there in what we do. Um, there weren’t many truly integrated textbooks that, that tried to look at the continuum of performance.

[00:36:21] So they tended to be strength and conditioning or sports medicine. The sports medicine textbooks have nothing about exercise or very little like standard physio nonsense about, you know, three sets of 10. Um, and, and physios just don’t get taught proper exercise science, strengthen and conditioning principles, physiology principles.

[00:36:43] Um, so, but equally we felt that many strengthening conditioning coaches don’t get taught the, the elements of injury and, and pathology and those sorts of things. So we, we wanted to, to blend those. [00:37:00] So basically what happened was I pitched that to a number of publishers and we got a lot of interest. Um, we ended up by.

[00:37:09] This was for sports injury prevention and rehab. And we got down to the final two publishers that were, we were sort of trading with, and we went with one. And then the other one said, um, we are really disappointed that we didn’t get that. Would you write a book for us as well? Um, and foolishly and naively, we said yes, and that became high performance training for sports.

[00:37:33] Um, but it was our belief that a lot of the textbooks out there are very technical, very academic, um, which is great, you know, that that serves an an A market. But what actually we wanted was to produce something which was the world’s best conference, but just in written form. So we got a whole heap of, you know, world experts to talk about their niche.

[00:37:59] Um, [00:38:00] but in languages, in a, in, in a language that. Was, uh, approachable. You know, we want, we wanted, we wanted the feel of it to be if, um, I don’t know, Stu McMillan one of the world’s best speed coaches, if he came into your facility, what would he say are the non-negotiables? What would he look at? And so that was the brief.

[00:38:23] And then he writes that with JB Marin to the World’s Best Speed Coaches. And then that becomes that chapter. And then we, we sort of link all the chapters to, to, uh, it’s not, it’s not designed as something that you read from page one to page 360 or whatever it is. It’s, you go, okay, so I’m gonna read this bit.

[00:38:42] Oh, now I’m gonna read The Bit On Influence by Brett Hol, and now I’m gonna read The Bit on Coaching and Queuing by Nick Winkleman, because they all interlink and that was kind of the, the puzzle that we were trying to solve. That’s

[00:38:54] Donnie: cool. Yeah, that the outline, it’s good.

[00:38:57] Joseph Krawczyk: Yeah. And it’s. It’s [00:39:00] interesting too, you know, if, if you think about your, your point at the beginning, you know, if ATS here, if they are, if they do know anything about, you know, weight room training, they, they have to get the additional certification of like a CSCs or something like that.

[00:39:10] So some, some of our ATS here have that. Um, and I’ve always kind of thought about this like, man, we we’re so closely aligned and we work together so much, you’d think we’d. We’ll merged it a little bit more. And I think in the schoolhouse, you know, in college it’s, it’s a bit more like that. They kind of come up through their bachelor’s degree a little bit, uh, closer.

[00:39:29] But yeah, when it comes to the certifications, it’s very separated.

[00:39:32] David Joyce: Yeah. And, and so it reinforces Yeah. A human bias of looking for in groups and outgroups. So we love our in groups, so, and you, you see that like the University of Texas massive in group, you know, there’s Longhorns everywhere and that’s an artifact that’s a real signal of we belong here, we we’re all together.

[00:39:50] Um, but within that mm-hmm. , . Um, there is this, um, there’s lots of different in groups and in our environment and in group is [00:40:00] the athletic trainers, and in group is the strength coach. Um, and it is hard to breach that sometimes because there’s a level of mistrust and it’s evolutionarily hard, wide into us, us for, for very good reason.

[00:40:14] But in today’s society it’s counterproductive in most instances, particularly in what we’re trying to do. So I’ve always abolished the strength and conditioning department and the sports medicine department. I’ve said we we’re athletic performance, we’re looking at the same problems. We’ve just got different skill sets.

[00:40:32] And you have them in the same, same area. Yeah. I, I think so. That’s my belief anyway. Um, um, and the, the more we can bring that to the party, I think the, the more collaborative, the more, um, innovative our problem solving is. Yeah.

[00:40:49] Joseph Krawczyk: Sure. I like that term in groups and out

[00:40:51] Donnie: groups. Yeah. I mean, there’s really to your, there’s so much collaboration and you, and I’m, I’m kind of ringing the bell [00:41:00] again on this, but the sense of belonging you’ve been talking about with us has been, that’s really resonated with me for some reason.

[00:41:06] Um, because I think that’s so critical. You know, you’ve gotta feel like you’re part of the staff and team. Yeah. Not that we have any of that here, but just, I, I feel like you can get siloed, you know, and you kind of lose that sense of purpose and kind of like the importance of your job. So

[00:41:22] David Joyce: it’s good. Well, it’s, it’s funny you say that, Donnie, cuz I took a photo, um, in the football, um, area today and, and it, um, there’s a big sign on the wall and it says, getting the respect of the locker room.

[00:41:37] The most important thing that was bigger than any play, bigger than any game that I was part of. Honestly, once we got the respect from everyone in that locker room, that’s when I knew I belonged, could do my best, and was ready to go out there and perform. Um, um, and so I loved that because that last bit is, that’s when I belonged.

[00:41:58] Mm-hmm. . So that’s, he’s basically saying [00:42:00] that’s when I’m part of the in group. Mm-hmm. , that’s when I felt trusted to unleash what I. Um, it’s at the heart of everything that we, that we need to do, which is why I love here at ut there’s this real, like, there’s a palpable sense of belonging. Um, that is, you know, clearly part of the culture of the, of the place, but the culture’s only fostered by, can only be fostered by people like yourselves that bring people in.

[00:42:30] Like, um, we’ve felt really this sense of belonging. We’ve felt that, um, we’ve been welcomed to, to come here. It’s, it’s such an important part and, and an incredible part that can’t just be left to the leader of a program. Like that’s, that’s something that is, is driven and, and role modeled by the leader, but implemented by everyone.

[00:42:54] Yeah. That’s good.

[00:42:54] Joseph Krawczyk: It’s true. Yeah. So is is, I mean, is that the challenge today then, like moving forward as to. [00:43:00] I mean, you, you can’t just break apart the in groups completely, right? Because then you start stepping on other people’s toes. That’s right. And things like that. You know, if it’d be like a, be like a two players on a field, right?

[00:43:10] They start trying to do each other’s job, they’d run into each other. That’s right. Um, so I guess what, what is that balance then that we’re looking for? I mean, you can’t, can’t break the in groups completely, but, you know, I guess what is, I guess what’s the goal there in, in trying to collaborate better

[00:43:25] David Joyce: in the future?

[00:43:26] Yeah, it’s a, it’s a really interesting question, John. I guess the, um, the role, role clarity’s really important. So you know what you are responsible and accountable for. Um, but it is, it’s this, this culture of, of. Not having to feel like you have to have all the answers. You might be the domain expert, but your ability to solve a problem is enhanced by enlisting the help of other people who see the world through just a slightly different lens.

[00:43:58] Right? But [00:44:00] you may be the one that’s got the make, makes the ultimate decision. But this is role modeled by, you know, these sorts of meetings that we’ve talked about by the facilities that we’ve talked about, or how we, how we structure it mm-hmm. , um, and, and this healthy respect for each other to go. Right.

[00:44:19] Um, I, I think I’m the expert in this, but I’m gonna speak to Joe because he may have seen this completely differently. Um, so having, being able to curate the environment and the, the culture such that there is this level of trust is, is the most important thing. But ultimately someone still has to make the decision, so it needs to be really clear about that bit as well.

[00:44:45] Right. For

[00:44:46] Donnie: sure. Good stuff. Um, well I’ve got a, I’ve got a little change of topic here. Again, one of my favorite kind of topics, um, being to Sydney and meeting your beautiful family. You have a very beautiful family and thank you. I’ve not met [00:45:00] your son yet, Rory. Um, but soon, hopefully.

[00:45:03] David Joyce: Yes. That’s, um, that’s coming up,

[00:45:05] Donnie: isn’t it?

[00:45:05] Right? Yes, sir. So coach, speak to that, like how have you been able to manage, and I don’t wanna use the word balance cause I don’t know that that’s very attainable, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on that, but how have you been able to manage the level of success you’ve had in sport and the demands on you professionally and then have a healthy home life?

[00:45:23] Can you speak to that?

[00:45:25] David Joyce: Um, so the, the balance bit’s really interesting, right? So. We can look at that through a couple of different ways. And commonly what people will do is look at balance through the, the prism of time spent. So I spend eight hours at work. I spend eight hours at home. Um, and that’s a, that’s a good balance.

[00:45:52] Um, I don’t think that’s the right way to look at it, for me anyway. I, I think of it much more in terms of [00:46:00] energy and how much energy am I, um, giving at work and how much have I got to give at home? That’s, yeah, that’s true. And how much energy am I extracting? Um, am, am I, am I a giver or am I a sapper? So if I’m a giver, am I giving energy to work so much that I’m sapping.

[00:46:24] Or I’m drained when I’m at home. That’s when I know my balance is out of, out of whack. Um, to be completely frank, um, I don’t always get it right. So it’s always, it’s like a thermostat. You’re always adjusting. Mm-hmm. , um, I get very clear feedback from my wife, , um, , um, you stay in culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and that’s really important, right?

[00:46:51] Like it’s, that’s like the, um, um, the little, um, buzzer that, that’s going on in your car when you haven’t [00:47:00] done your seatbelt up, or it’s just like little reminders. Um, but intuitively, you know, if, if things are not quite right. But I think one of the things that I’ve learned over the journey is to be really clear with.

[00:47:14] Everyone is going, okay, so this period, this is pre-season, I’m gonna be working really hard here and I’m not gonna get home till eight o’clock. Um, and managing those expectations and giving a sense of when it’s gonna end if you can. Um, we, we periodize all our athletes’ programs and we can periodize our life as well.

[00:47:38] So I do a lot of work in this space in the corporate area of how executives can periodize their, their energy. Um, so you need to, you need to provide those expectations, but you need to be humble enough to, uh, accept the feedback when it comes. I think that’s, um, that’s pretty important.

[00:47:58] Donnie: Yeah. Coach, that is so powerful.

[00:47:59] [00:48:00] The, there’s a couple books as you talk, and I can’t remember the author of one of ’em, but the one book’s called The Power of Full Engagement, Uhhuh , and the whole book’s about. Energy management. Yeah, right. Just what you said. And they talk about, depending on the season of life you’re in, you should really evaluate your energy, whether it’s for work or your, your hobbies, your family.

[00:48:22] And if that energy that energy’s low, it’s like a gas tank, right? Like you may not do a great job and then they kind of talk about it in there. Even your workday of how people just work nonstop all day and they never recharge and they just come out of work and they’re just exhausted. Right. The other book is called Leading On Empty, which is it’s profound book.

[00:48:42] It’s a faith-based book. So a little precursor there, but, but the Wayne Cordero, uh, tells a story of he was leading, you know, he’s a pastor who’s leading in this church movement and basically, Ends up hitting the wall burns out, goes into depression. I think he has to [00:49:00] go through about a year and a half of rehab and he goes into the book of, of your point he talks about, I think he says there’s like five to seven energy bursts.

[00:49:08] We have a day and once you kind of spin that burst of energy, your body starts running on adrenaline where you gotta start kind of like taking drinks. And you know, whether it’s Red Bull or no coach, it’s not, not the, what’s the monster drinks that you and I drink Occasionally, I may or may not like those little confession there, but anyway,

[00:49:31] But you start having to like find other reserves of energy that makes it’s not good for your health. Right? Yeah. And so I, I like that cuz there’s been literally when you were talking about energy, I had this like flashback of when my kids were little and we’d be in season with football and I’d get home and I’d just be coach.

[00:49:46] I was toast. Yeah. I was home, but I wasn’t. I wasn’t present. Yeah. And those were not, those were tough

[00:49:51] David Joyce: times. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. And it’s, it’s funny is that cuz we, we talk with our athletes, we wouldn’t expect them to [00:50:00] do, um, uh, deadlifts all day. You know, and we would program it. So you, you might even, you might do two or three in a row or you know, eight or whatever it is, but then you break it into sets and then you have a break between sets.

[00:50:18] And you wouldn’t do that every day. And you might come back and do a couple of sets throughout the day or what, whatever it is, how you program. Now we can look at that through the lens of Acton and Mycin and those sorts of things. But actually it’s about energy. It’s about how you expend your energy. And as strength coaches, we know that you can’t do that.

[00:50:38] Like you can’t run all day because you have to have breaks. Otherwise, you just, you, you actually, you are never hitting peak. Um, so if we’re viewing that and our programming of that through the energy lens, we can directly translate that to what we do as coaches, what we do as executives, and [00:51:00] go, right, well I’ve got a crucible moment here.

[00:51:02] You know, I’ve got board papers due, or I’ve got, you know, it’s pre-season. So you work up to that, but then you’ve gotta put in your rest time and that rest time, you can look at it through the, the macro cycle. You can look at it through a meso cycle or you can look at it through a micro cycle. And that micro cycle might be, I’m gonna work hard on this paper that I’ve gotta write for 90 minutes and then I’m gonna have a break.

[00:51:28] Cause it’s the only way you can reach the peak is by, by putting that, um, that break in. And we are just talking about energy and yet it’s the same conversation as programming squats.

[00:51:40] Donnie: Yeah, coach, you have to say no to a lot of stuff sometimes.

[00:51:44] David Joyce: Yeah. So I, I said yes to everything and now I’m saying no to more things.

[00:51:50] Yeah, that’s,

[00:51:52] Donnie: I don’t know, it just says I’m getting older in my career, I’m learning. I’ve gotta learn to say no more to be really good at what I do. Do [00:52:00] you know what I am engaged in? It’s

[00:52:02] David Joyce: hard, isn’t it? Like I think the right thing when you’re young is to say yes to as many things as you possibly can. Cuz what you’re trying to do is experiment and learn and create networks and all those sorts of things.

[00:52:13] So that’s absolutely the right thing to do. But then, you know, when you, when you get a family and you’ve got other things and you really, you should have decided, well, many people have decided by, you know, thirties, forties, that, um, they, they wanna. Pursue this particular avenue. That’s when you deploy your resources into that avenue, which means you have to say no to things.

[00:52:40] But that’s hard because. It floods our ego when we’re asked to do things right? Mm-hmm. , the more people ask you to do something, the more your ego goes, who I’m important? I’m important.

[00:52:53] Joseph Krawczyk: Yeah. They need

[00:52:53] Donnie: me a hundred percent co You are a spot on right there.

[00:52:56] David Joyce: So there’s, there’s a little bit where you actually need to [00:53:00] check in on yourself and go, oh, am I, what’s the opportunity cost?

[00:53:04] I can do this to get a little, little ego boost, but it may be detracting from me, deploying my time, money, energy into this thing, which is way more important. Yeah,

[00:53:16] Joseph Krawczyk: I can totally a vo for a lot of this. I mean, David’s reaching 10 months and in those first years, I mean, that’s your son, David.

[00:53:23] David Joyce: Yep. What a fun name.

[00:53:24] Joseph Krawczyk: Oh yeah, yeah. There you go. Um, . Yeah, I mean, it’s just so much changes early on. So like right in like a two month period when you think you. like, and you know, the next day it’s like, nope. Change up the routine. You know? And, and you’re right. I mean, you have to say, right now it’s me saying no to a lot of like outside things.

[00:53:42] Like, Hey, you wanna go do this on Saturday? It’s like, no, I think, I think we just stay home with, with David and, and chill. You know, it’s, we’re we’re good just to lay low, you know? Um, cuz I find a lot of satisfaction doing that, you know, being with him and my wife, my dog. But, you know, it’s, it’s just. In those early years [00:54:00] of having a family that so much changes so fast,

[00:54:03] David Joyce: you simply do not get it back.

[00:54:06] Yeah. And you

[00:54:07] Joseph Krawczyk: have to be so adaptable Yeah. At home. Just as much as you’re adaptable at

[00:54:10] David Joyce: work. Yep, yep, yep. But you can’t spend all your time just at home. Right. Um, as much as that might seem like the the good modern dad thing to do because you wanna be able to role model hard work, right? Yeah. Um, when, when David gets old enough he needs, he will want to see his dad working hard and, and his mum working hard and those sorts of things.

[00:54:31] So there’s you, you just constantly checking in, getting, making sure you’re getting the, the deployment of your resources and your time. Right.

[00:54:38] Donnie: For sure. And that just the last thing on this, cuz I keep hearing some stuff you said earlier in our conversation about like, what’s the intent and purpose, right?

[00:54:47] Mm-hmm. . So if you apply that to your, your career. Well the reason I work. is because I love my family. Yeah. I do personally, um, I work and do the job I do [00:55:00] so that my family can have a life that we have. Yeah. And you know, the times I’ve put my work and sacrificed my family, um, I’ve been a more unhappier in my job.

[00:55:11] Yeah. Because my family has suffered. And so to your point, it’s about you’ve gotta give that attention and. To your wife and to your children if you’re a parent. And they’ve gotta be good because again, you and I kind of talked about this on the trip. If I’m a, if I’m a better dad and a better husband, then I’m, it makes me a better coach.

[00:55:29] Yeah, absolutely. For me, per, that’s kinda how I’m wired. Yep, yep, yep. So I just don’t, I, I really struggle. Uh, I’ve struggled through the years of coaches. It just, you know, there’s workaholics, they just can’t ever go home. And I understand sometimes it’s, maybe not, it’s not happy to be home, you know, but maybe it would be happier if you put a little more time into it.

[00:55:47] So, yeah. It’s, anyway, just, it’s kind of sad, isn’t it? Yeah. And I, I don’t wanna be come off as judgmental. I mean, I’ve definitely seen coaches, I’m sure as you guys have through the years, just their marriage get just ruined. Yeah. You know, so, It’s tough. It’s tough [00:56:00] profession. Yeah. Yeah. But again, uh, that’s one thing I definitely admire about you coach.

[00:56:04] It seems like just you, you’re, you’re really good at what you do, but you have a beautiful family and you can tell that that matters a lot to you and that, and that the two kind of goes hand in hand.

[00:56:13] David Joyce: Yeah. And I, I really do appreciate that from you, Donnie. Cause I look up to you in that regard. So that, that means a huge amount to me.

[00:56:21] Thank you. Yes, sir.

[00:56:24] Joseph Krawczyk: So coach, in your career, you, you’ve done some the most, uh, you’ve had some really fulfilling moments and you’ve, um, can you share some of those with us? And then, you know, how have you handled some hard times as well? Mm-hmm. ?

[00:56:36] David Joyce: Um, I think the, the times that are most fulfilling, and this is gonna sound silly, like it’s you, you, you love the wins, right?

[00:56:48] You love the wins, but I get over wins really quickly, like half an hour. After a win, I’m, I’m done with it. And you, you’re starting to look forward, so it’s a [00:57:00] sugar rush. So when I look at my career mate and things that have been most fulfilling and not necessarily full of those sugar rushes, and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve luck lucky enough to have had a lot of sugar rush moments of wins.

[00:57:14] But in terms of the things which have connected with me as being areas where I’ve felt really fulfilled, I look to the success of my staff that they’ve gone on and run their own programs. Like I’m incredibly proud of staff that have left, um, and run their own program, have success, have stayed connected, um, and, and, and want to share the joy of that.

[00:57:44] Like, that’s honestly the, some of the, the best moments that I’ve had. And the good thing about it is they’re not moments, like a win is a moment, but these things are much more long lasting. Um, and [00:58:00] we were even talking about it last night, weren’t we? Donnie? Like, um, we’ve got, I’ve got a belief that you, you always meet people twice and if you’re a good person, you’ve got good values, you’re good fun, um, You just have these relationships.

[00:58:20] Like I’m, I’m a, I’m a country boy from the middle of nowhere in Australia. Um, for me to be in Austin, Texas recording a podcast like this is a pretty big deal. And this is on the back of a beer that we had in Sydney because we both took a risk of, of meeting someone that we’d never met before. Um, I’ll, I’ll look back on this and, you know, on my deathbed, and if you ask me this on my deathbed, hopefully, you know, in another 80 years, , um, um, I, I won’t remember the wins and losses.

[00:58:56] I’ll remember days like this. These are the most fulfilling [00:59:00] things. And the hard times in my career, and there’s always hard times, but it’s, for me, it’s a case of having a sense of perspective and going, geez, I think I’m doing it tough. How about what’s happening in Ukraine? Or, um, so it’s always helpful to, to think of, uh, at least mindset is it could be if only, if only I did this, if only I can live through regret.

[00:59:29] But you can flip it and go, at least it’s not that, and that, that always puts things in a, in a positive light. But it, it gets back to a question you asked earlier, Joe, about, you know, what are the, the characteristics of high performing teams and high performing people is that it’s a, it’s a case of, um, of, of having that purpose and making sure that I’m that kid walking up the stairs, even if the yo-yos going up and down mm-hmm.

[00:59:56] So it’s, it’s having that real North star that’s, that’s the thing that gets me [01:00:00] through. Yeah. Awesome.

[01:00:02] Joseph Krawczyk: So we have a lot of, uh, young listeners on the show, and as we kind of wrap up here, you know, what would you recommend our listeners do for professional development and, you know, what would you recommend for younger up and coming coaches, just in general?

[01:00:16] David Joyce: So, for young coaches, the most important thing to do is to get really good at your craft. You know, work towards mastery of your craft. And that can be the, the X’s and O’s mm-hmm. , um, of, you know, programming, um, complex training sessions, whatever it is. Um, but it’s also about understanding influence and negotiation and those sorts of things.

[01:00:47] So that’s, that’s where you need to be deploying your resources, getting really good at that bit. Um, and I, but I can’t, I. , it’s impossible for me to overestimate or to overemphasize. I should, I should [01:01:00] say the importance of having a mentor and probably a series of mentors that can help guide you. And I’m not asking people to go out and get a, um, a cheerleader, but, um, but more of a critical friend.

[01:01:16] Someone who’s gonna call them up on some of the stuff they’re doing wrong, but to really encourage them. So, uh, I’ve got this saying that, um, and it’s not mine, but you can’t read the label from inside the bottle. And that’s why it’s really helpful to have a group of. That are helping you read the label that can see things.

[01:01:41] That’s why I do quite a lot of exec coaching and why I get coach myself is for that bit there, um, to making sure that you, you’ve got the totality of your career covered. So, um, I think, I think they’re, they’re the things get really good at your craft. Have people that are [01:02:00] on your side that will call you for, um, things that you’re not doing so well and, and, and have a really clear purpose of where you’re going.

[01:02:06] Even if you, even if you don’t have the map sorted, you need to have a bit of a, a guiding star. Yeah.

[01:02:14] Joseph Krawczyk: Yeah. That mentor piece is so important. You know, I, I think back to when I was living in Hawaii, when I was in the Marines and my company commander, I had him for three years and he was my mentor at the time, and we had a lot of hard conversations and, you know, a lot of good conversations.

[01:02:27] But, um, he was big into smoking and we’d always go out back behind the block house and have like some of the hardest conversations while he had a cigarette or two. And, uh, and you talk about times you remember when you speak with your staff. Like those are some of like the fulfilling times you had. It’s like same, same with me.

[01:02:45] Like we, we talk about the Marines, we talk about stuff we need to do and, and those will always stick with me and hopefully, you know, one day, you know, I could pass that on. But yeah, the men, the mentor piece is very, very powerful. Yeah. And now that I’m here at ut, you know, Donny Donny’s been one of my [01:03:00] mentors with Clint.

[01:03:01] Um, and the talks we’ve had here, I mean it’s, it’s important, you know, cause a lot of people leave home. They go far. They grew up with their parents. Those were their mentors. No doubt. And, uh, and when, when you’re far from home and you haven’t, you haven’t done that in a long time. It’s, it’s important for your success.

[01:03:15] David Joyce: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s, it’s really important for your ego and everything. And it’s interesting, you, you say about smoking and I, I won’t necessarily endorse that, but, but what you, um, but, but it’s, it’s the same, it’s the same concept of, of conversation over, over food, isn’t it? Yeah. Um, cuz you can have a really direct agenda driven conversation and that will help you solve a specific problem, but it doesn’t usually unlock the creative bit.

[01:03:41] Um, whereas what you are describing there is having a conversation. Oh, a series of conversations when you’re doing something else, which is the same as smoking, same as, um, um, over, over dinner. But it’s also, and you, you’ll probably be able to give me some guidance on this coach about they, I’m told that if you want to [01:04:00] have conversations with teenagers, you don’t do it necessarily face to face asking questions.

[01:04:06] You do it on a drive. Mm-hmm. where you don’t have to be looking in each other’s eyes. You can just be just shooting the breeze and asking some curated, tangential questions. And that seems to unlock things. Yeah.

[01:04:19] Donnie: I’ll, and that’s kind of a tangent, but I think I heard, this is the way I heard it. Explain one time with kids, and it’s true.

[01:04:25] And you’ll, you’ll, if you have kids, anybody listening, you’ll, there’s a difference between talk, they talk about like quantity time and quality time. Meaning, you know, well, if I just get some quality time with my kid, you know, everything. Well, here’s what, what they’ve learned and, and parenting Right. If you’ll spend quantity time.

[01:04:46] Right. They’ll at some point in there because of your familiarity and time with ’em, whether it’s car drives or Yeah. Doing something around the house because of that long time, you, the more touches you have with them, they eventually end up [01:05:00] opening their heart to you. You don’t know when that moment’s gonna come, but it’s not likely to always come in that quality time.

[01:05:07] But if you can give ’em quality time, like you’re saying, like that drive long drive or a trip together, like they usually will open up. Yeah. You get those moments.

[01:05:15] David Joyce: Yeah. And it’s, there’s probably no such thing as quantity time or quality. It’s just time. Right, right.

[01:05:21] Donnie: So true. Well, good stuff. Well, we are pretty much done for this episode.

[01:05:28] Uh, where could our listeners, if they wanna reach out, follow you, connect with you, coach Joyce, aka Joycey. Where would they, uh, where would

[01:05:35] David Joyce: they do that? Um, So I’m, I’m probably not huge on social media, but um, Twitter would be the one that most people would connect with me on, which is at David G. Joyce. Um, David Dot, Joyce sign, Aing, s y n a p s i n g.co c.

[01:05:55] Um, all LinkedIn or, um, yeah, so [01:06:00] really happy to engage with people. And just

[01:06:01] Donnie: for one more, if speak to this as much or little as you can, what can we look for in the future from Synapse and what’s coming down? Can you speak to that yet, or, so we’d love to hear, just as we close out the show, tell everybody kind of what’s coming down the pipe.

[01:06:15] Yeah.

[01:06:15] David Joyce: It’s super exciting about, probably 40% of my work is with big sporting organizations, like doing big reviews, big strategy work, um, how do we get more women into high performance coaching? I did a whole piece on. How do we prepare our athletes, uh, during quarantine and the like? So some big things that are not necessarily about getting athletes fit faster, stronger.

[01:06:40] Um, about 40% of my work is in, in corporates, um, and about 20% is in exec coaching of, of, of people. And my specialty in exec coaching is, is not in the CEOs of Fortune 500, um, companies, but more in people that [01:07:00] are transitioning from domain expertise. So the world’s best. Sport scientist or strength coach or whatever it is, into more leadership.

[01:07:10] Mm. That’s strong. Um, but I, I guess the thing that I’m, I’m probably most excited about at the moment is I’m doing some work with a company called Optimize. And what we’re trying to do is increase the accessibility of mental performance to, um, to athletes in high school and college and, and, and other areas that wouldn’t necessarily get the opportunity to speak to the top level sports psychologists.

[01:07:35] So we are bringing the top level sports psychologists to them. Um, we feel that, um, calm and Headspace do a fantastic job, but they. Focus primarily on, on mindset and, and, sorry, um, sleep and meditation, whereas we we’re trying to, uh, unlock the puzzle of the mind at the, the more, the more mental performance end.

[01:07:58] So, um, that’s, [01:08:00] that’s a really, really interesting piece that, that we’re, we’re trying to, um, to solve and, um, we’re really excited cause it’s, it’s no doubt that that’s the greenfield opportunity and how we improve, um, sporting

[01:08:12] Donnie: performance. Yeah, that’s ex I mean that’s so exciting. I, I always, I feel like today in sport, this with all the mental health stuff, but even to your point, I always say like a lot of our best athletes, metaphorically speaking, if you could like cut their head off and like fix their head and put it back on, like, we would be great.

[01:08:29] Right? So, man, that is awesome. You guys are gonna be doing that and it’s gonna be well needed and I’m sure very exciting once you kind of start getting Yeah, it’s great.

[01:08:38] David Joyce: And it enables us to, you know, come to. Come to the US and, and, um, speak with all our friends here and, you know, get on fantastic podcasts like this one.

[01:08:51] Donnie: Well, good stuff. Well, we’ll close it out. And dinner plans tonight, coach?

[01:08:55] David Joyce: Yes. Where we going? Yeah. Um, I don’t know, it’s um, [01:09:00] um, so we’ve ticked a lot of boxes so far. We haven’t ticked the barbecue box, but that, um, it’s coming. Maybe that, that has to be on the gender, I think. Yeah,

[01:09:08] Donnie: there’s a lot of good choices here.

[01:09:09] Joe, what’s your number one recommendation? Barbecue, Austin, Texas. He’s not getting paid, by the way again. He

[01:09:15] Joseph Krawczyk: just . Yeah. Yeah, they do. I wish they did pay me, but not kidding. Um, salt Lake is really good. Yeah, you can make your way down there. It’s really good. Right. Um. Man, I don’t know. There’s, he’s close.

[01:09:28] Donnie: There’s five others’ staying kind of domain area. The styles and switches over there. Okay. I know somebody recommended blacks, but anyway, there’s so you can’t go

[01:09:36] Joseph Krawczyk: wrong really. He’s probably closer. I mean, they’re all so good. I mean,

[01:09:39] Donnie: Franklin’s is probably one of the most world known. Yeah,

[01:09:41] David Joyce: definitely about that.

[01:09:42] Yeah.

[01:09:42] Donnie: The line is really long. Anyway, so I know you don’t have much more time in Austin, but hopefully you’ll be back at some point.

[01:09:47] David Joyce: Yeah, well we, we’ve. We’ve got one more day. And if they’ve got customer loyalty where you, you’ve gotta punch 10, 10 things to get a free 11th, then we’re gonna have the crack at that.[01:10:00]

[01:10:00] Donnie: I love it. So well, coach Joyce, it has been an outstanding time and pleasure. Absolute pleasure and privilege to have you in Austin and just come on the show. So thank you for your time, expertise, and just sharing your passion and heart with our listeners.

[01:10:15] David Joyce: Thank you, Donny. Thank you. Job. Really enjoyed this.

[01:10:17] Absolutely. Thanks for coming

[01:10:17] Donnie: on. All right. That’s it on the team behind the team. You guys have an awesome holidays. We’ll catch you in 2023. Hook ’em. Hook. Thanks so much for tuning and listening to this episode of the team Behind the Team podcast. For future episodes, go to iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, or Stitcher.

[01:10:40] We definitely want to keep having great guests on the show and great content. So if you have a moment, please go to iTunes, leave a rating and review and let us know how we’re doing. I’m Donnie Maib and thanks so much for tuning in.[01:11:00]