Poetry & Protest with Fatemeh Shams

[00:00:00] Nahid Siamdoust: Salam in the name of the God of Rainbows, welcome to Woman Life Freedom, all in on Iran, a podcast series in which we’ll go deep in conversations with experts on various aspects of the revolutionary uprising that began in Iran in September when 22 year old Amini was killed in morality. Police detention in each episode will unpack an important aspect of the unfolding of this historic moment in Iran.

[00:00:41] Nahid Siamdoust: I’m your host, Naji Siam, an assistant professor of Media and Middle East Studies at the University of Texas at Austin. Our intention is to quote unquote, archive the important insights of our experts here and now, both in their capacity as professional observers, as well as humans living through these momentous times.

[00:01:01] Nahid Siamdoust: Stay tuned.

[00:01:09] Nahid Siamdoust: This week we’ll be speaking with Fatima Shams, poet and assistant professor of Persian Literature at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Fatima Shams is also the author of a revolution in Rhyme poetic co-option under the Islamic Republic, published by Oxford University Press in 2021. she earned her PhD from the University of Oxford and before joining, Penn has taught Persian language and literature in various academic institu.

[00:01:38] Nahid Siamdoust: But first, a quick recap of the timeline.

[00:01:50] Nahid Siamdoust: Today is Friday, February 10th, just a day ahead of the 44th anniversary of the 1979 Revolution. Um, some news items are the freeing of Farhod Mei from Evin Prison following the, leaking of photos of him completely EME emaciated from months of hunger strike. He was imprisoned in 2019 for opposing compulsory hijab for women.

[00:02:16] Nahid Siamdoust: Also today there’s an opposition coalition meeting and press conference happening at Georgetown where,

[00:02:25] Nahid Siamdoust: and Naza are presenting their view forward for Iran and taking question. There are lots of campaigns, on social media trying to get Iranians to gather together over the weekend to oppose the Islamic Republic. go on demonstrations against the Islamic Republic on the occasion of the Revolutions anniversary.

[00:02:48] Nahid Siamdoust: Zan, Zendegi, Azadi

[00:02:59] Nahid Siamdoust: Hello? Hello, professor Farese Shams. it’s wonderful to have you on the Woman Life Freedom Podcast.

[00:03:06] Fatemeh Shams: Hello, Dr. Si. Uh,thank you so much for having me. Okay.

[00:03:11] Nahid Siamdoust: Faja, you are a celebrated poet and an assistant professor of Persian literature at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Shams is a specialist in Persian literature.

[00:03:21] Nahid Siamdoust: She’s, been very active also, a very sort of vocal voice, in these, last almost five months since the woman life Freedom movement started in Iran in September. And you’ve been a voice that’s really been present in both in sort of the Persian social media space, but also on, Western and English, language media spaces.

[00:03:42] Nahid Siamdoust: Really just trying to explain to a lot of,observers who are not as familiar with what’s happening in Iran and some who are even just about the processes that have been going on in Iran. So it’s a real pleasure to have you here on this podcast and, of course, to draw on your expertise also as, as, somebody who both writes poetry and teaches Persian literature.

[00:04:04] thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us. I really, of this podcast is really about weaving in the personal, into the political, and, really,not, separating them as much as we sometimes tend to do in academic work. And so I really wanna start by asking you about your own background and coming of the age in Iran.

[00:04:23] Nahid Siamdoust: I feel like among the guests that I have and will be interviewing your story somehow resonates the most with what’s been happening in Iran. We, of course, first met in Oxford, when we were both doing our doctorates there. And, luckily have kept in touch and I’ve seen you go through this progression and I wonder if this thought has ever occurred to you yourself.

[00:04:45] and if you could just comment on your own trajectory and the trajectory of this movement in Iran.

[00:04:50] yeah. Sure. So, thank you so much for having me, and it’s a pleasure to be here and to be in conversation with you. I suppose I. I start by saying that I was born and bred in one of the most conservative cities of Iran, mash hat, where I also came of age.

[00:05:09] Fatemeh Shams: And at the age of 17, I, moved to Tehran, to the capital to study Persian literature for a year. And then after that, sociology , and it was at Iran University that I really became involved in political activities and the student movement. at the time, in, within those years, during the presidency of Moham Roam, probably you remember that there were a lot of hopes in, change.

[00:05:34] Fatemeh Shams: and transformation and,the student movement, within those years also paid a huge price for,for freedom that, is still an ongoing, struggle for the Iranians to this day. that was really the first, and most important exposure, to the political scene for me.

[00:05:52] Fatemeh Shams: And during, from that time to this day, as you mentioned, I have gone through, quite a lot in terms of personal and and also, political and professional, life. so. during the time when I was still in Iran, I was heavily involved in the student movement. And, and during the 2009 green movement, I was also, heavily involved in the protests.

[00:06:21] and also, I was part of the campaign for, the reformist opposition figure mi mm-hmm. . Um,and I remember that during those years,there was still this hope for, being able to, to reach the goal, which was, changing the political structure , of the country by negotiating with the power by, exercising this sort of your civil, Rights, which was , part of it was taking part in the election, and I was that, it was that hope that kept us going. Although, there was, no, complete agreement, or alliance between, between the opposition figures and those of us who were born and raised after the revolution.

[00:07:04] Fatemeh Shams: There was always, we always wanted something more. But at the same time, there was this perception that, the only way to, to reach those goals and to realize those goals is to, to try and,try for change from within the system. the aftermath of the 2009, protests, was.

[00:07:24] Fatemeh Shams: Costly for me personally, I,my immediate family members, were jailed at the time and, I was, quite vocal from outside the country. . And at some point about a year after, the rise of the green movement, I decided to, to publicly unveil and as a result of that, my personal relationship, my marriage,a lot of my, long-term friendships, were affected by that decision.

[00:07:52] . So it was a really difficult, period in terms of,finding my new path in life. I wanted to be who I wanted to be, not who I was. , , supposed to be according to other people, including those who were,closest to me. I remember that from the age of 14, I had to fight against this patriarchy in, in my life.

[00:08:16] Fatemeh Shams: And,it wasn’t the first time that I was, voicing my protest, but it, I would say, After the 2009 movement, it was for the first time that I found the courage, to go public about this. , the consequence of that was, of course, a huge smear campaign, that was launched mainly by the,by the regime on their social media platforms.

[00:08:39] al I was also, the target and subject of a lot of criticism by the reformists inside the country who, perceived my act of, rebellion and defiance as a sort of betrayal to the values of the green movement that according to them, it was, partly it was, to be.

[00:09:02] loyal to, to, what they consider to be the values of the movement, which always was really wake to me and obscure to me that who really defined those values. and since when one of the values is, to define the bodily autonomy of women, so within the past 13 years. And as a result of, that kind of public smear campaign for a while, I decided to, kind of abandon political activities and just, pursue my academic work, which I did for the most part until, five months ago that everything turned upside down again, as a result of the state murder of, Gina Amini in Iran.

[00:09:44] and as you mentioned, personal and I always believe that personal is political. And I always think that,when you are coming from a country where the state has its hands on pretty much every single aspect of your life and it controls everything, it also reinforces the patriarchal structure of the family.

[00:10:05] then to say that I’m apolitical in itself is a heavily political statement in my op, in my opinion. and the past five months,has been in a way the repetition of a trauma, not just for me, I think for many Iranian women who really started the fight against patriarchy and misogyny from their households since very young age.

[00:10:30] and part of it is, of course trauma, traumatizing to constantly remember all, those single, moments in your childhood, in your teenagehood, in your youth that you,you rebelled against signs of patriarchy in your life. everything coming to a head finally.

[00:10:48] Fatemeh Shams: And then you see that, being manifested, all those moments being manifested in the bodies of these defiant women and girls. who have taken to the streets over the past five months and their, their head scarves. It’s just a moment of, I think, also empowering empowerment and liberation in a sense.

[00:11:08] which has come at a very heavy cost as Yeah, for sure.

[00:11:11] Nahid Siamdoust: And I know at the time I’m, I wanna get, get to the woman Life Freedom movement and, the significance of, these months both for you and also,, examining some of the, slogans and poetry.

[00:11:23] Nahid Siamdoust: But I just wanna mention that, , at the time of the 2009 Green Movement, since that seems to have been really your first political awakening and your, , becoming active in the political field in Iran in a very visible way, at least I know you had been active, as a student. and at the time when the 2009 Green movement happened, you published a volume of work, hashtag hashed, 88, referring to the year 2009 in the Persian solar calendar.

[00:11:49] Nahid Siamdoust: Translated into English as when they broke down the door. And you have a poem there. Um, so yeah, I would love, faja, if you could just read for us your poem, Azadi Freedom. it’ll be in Persian. We won’t do a line by line translation of it, but we’ll give a sense of what this poem is about.

[00:12:07] sure. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Fatemeh Shams: This was one of the poems, as you mentioned, that I wrote, in the aftermath of the 2009 Green Movement. And it’s called,

[00:12:32] Fatemeh Shams: it is,

[00:12:32] Nahid Siamdoust: it is a stunning short poem. I sold my kisses, I and my memories. I burnt my poems. I took my suitcase and left. for the price of a life of freedom. what led you to write

[00:12:49] Fatemeh Shams: this? Yeah, this was a poem that I wrote, after my divorce actually. . And, as I mentioned,it, it was quite a public, it turned into a public event.

[00:13:01] Fatemeh Shams: and, it became, sort of a subject of a p a smear campaign launched by the Islamic Republic. and, it was quite a painful, episode in my life where, I came to the realization that sometimes in order to, gain freedom, in order to, have the freedom to be who you want to be, you have to give up. , some of the most precious,memories and possessions in your life. And I think in this poem, what is really lost here are, is the love, is the memories, the poems. And what is left is a traveler woman, with a suitcase, facing an unknown future, an unknown destination.

[00:13:48] but knowing that,the reason that she leaves and the reason for the departure is to find a life of freedom, a life full of. So

[00:14:01] Nahid Siamdoust: powerful and evocative. And of course, just a quick mention that,why your story became so visible was in part because you were of course married to a visible reformist, who was the son of another well-known reformist.

[00:14:13] Nahid Siamdoust: And I imagine those relations, also had, complicated consequences for you not least because, the reform is sort of held on to this idea that the system could be reformed from within, up until quite recently actually, right? Yes and yes. Only a few days ago when MiiR, Hossein Mus Avi, I mean other reformers have now admitted this publicly, that reforms from.

[00:14:38] Nahid Siamdoust: might not be possible anymore, but only recently, less than a week ago, I think Miros Cevi, the leader of the Green Uprising, whose campaign you were working for during the 2009 green movement

[00:14:49] Nahid Siamdoust: only recently issued a letter saying that he no longer believed that the Constitution of the Islamic Republic, could bring about the kinds of reforms that Iranians are asking for.

[00:14:59] Nahid Siamdoust: Yeah. I wonder if you were surprised, if you’ve been sort of what you’ve thought about the reformist approach to,these many years of people asking for fundamental change and their ultimate, in inability until quite recently to admit to this.

[00:15:13] Fatemeh Shams: again, I think, what you say, which is really important goes back to, what you said before about, personal being political,I think in my personal encounter and experience with the reformists, in their, sort of personal lives, and it was a really painful realization after, years.

[00:15:31] Fatemeh Shams: It was that,for them the political, act and sort of what they envisioned for the society. Seemed to be quite detached from their personal values and lifestyle. and to me that was, a level of hypocrisy and deeply problematic. And in the sense, one of the major reasons of, divergences ideological divergence, emotional divergence.

[00:15:54] Fatemeh Shams: It was, for me, it was a point of brick and rupture when I realized that. So what you are fighting for is not something that you actually follow in your personal life. And by that I mean. , specifically the body of the woman, the control and the power, sort of, exercising power when it comes to controlling, the woman’s body, and the woman’s freedom.

[00:16:19] Fatemeh Shams: And this was something that I found quite disturbing because,in, in surface, I had to constantly fight, with those who did not want to believe that this is the reality of their lives in their personal lives. Um, and then, on the other hand, I also had to constantly struggle with,

[00:16:35] Fatemeh Shams: making them understand that as far as, as long as you are not standing for the values that, you are using as slogans in your personal lives, you cannot, claim that you are really, loyal to those slogans. . So I found that duality, very problematic, which was the point of rupture for me.

[00:16:55] Fatemeh Shams: And of course for years, when, whenever there was a chance for, for change in Iran, all of us, I think we saw that,, during rohan’s presidency, for example, before and after, there is always a limit. within which they define, the meaning of change. And that limit is very much defined by, still by the state ideological apparatus and, sort of, the ruling power being the Islamic Republic.

[00:17:23] Fatemeh Shams: And I remember very vividly that. shortly following after the house arrest of Zabi and, the leaders of the green movement. Yeah. This was, this is back in, 2009, 2010. I remember one night in London I was, actually conversing with, nephews of, Miro, not Miro san, sorry, Hashan.

[00:17:47] Fatemeh Shams: And,we were talking about organizing protests and it was, they clearly suddenly and clearly, changed, shifted their position and said, that after the house arrest and after, people taking the streets in the day of Ashura and asking for the overthrow,overthrowing the regime, this is no longer our fight.

[00:18:08] Fatemeh Shams: I mean, it was quite shocking for me at that time, and very disturbing. And it was the end of,of course, that friendship also, back in the day. but I never forget that moment when, there was this, heated debate which turned to an argument very quickly that they said that we did not pay the cost.

[00:18:27] our fathers did not pay the cost for this regime to be in power, for you guys to come to the streets and take it away. so I think for me that was,, again, those personal relationships I think were very critical,, crucial for me to have a better understanding of what is happening within their households.

[00:18:44] and what do they really believe in, and to what extent they believe in people’s freedom. and then, in the past, week or so, as you mentioned. there was this statement by Mi Mua. yeah, I think, although back in 2009, I had my serious doubts about Mi Musabi because of his position, during, uh, Khomeini’s leadership.

[00:19:05] and, his kind of prolonged silence and detachment from politics and suddenly coming back to the political scene and all that. But over these past 13 years, I think one thing that Mu has shown that other poli, political activists and politicians such as did not have the courage and the honesty to, to show.

[00:19:28] Fatemeh Shams: is that pro progression? that , that process of change that, I think distinguishes him from his political counterparts. , all those statements that he wrote. although I still have my personal reservations for the kind of Islam,Islamic, discourse that he still uses in some of his, statements.

[00:19:49] it doesn’t actually, really suit my very secular and like, sort of, political beliefs. but I still respect him because I think that, he has come a long way and at least. to,to to change to, to really change from within and show that change, regardless of its consequences.

[00:20:12] , this is really interesting because, I mean, as you mentioned, , other political actors haven’t showed this. And in fact,Mohamed Homi also, uh, something and in it he is, more conservative. He says that, if we did stick to the letter and the spirit of the law things could actually be fixed.

[00:20:28] Nahid Siamdoust: The problem is that we’re not, so that really does show the divergence between the two. But I really wanna unpack a little bit more. the conversation you we were having before, which was about you saying, you really sense this hypocrisy, that the kind of political positionality that these reformists were taking was not reflected in their private lives.

[00:20:48] Nahid Siamdoust: And I think what I understand by that is that they still believed in the control of the female body and the kind of, , Islamist discourse that is part and parcel of that. did I understand that correctly, that you did not feel that the kind of freedom that they were asking for was indeed a reflection of the kind of freedom that people on the

[00:21:06] Fatemeh Shams: streets were asking for?

[00:21:07] Fatemeh Shams: Absolutely. Absolutely. and I think for me, that was a, that was a moment of, distance and,and sort of, parting my way, as as we say. and I think, you know what? What happened during that time to me as a, as an individual. for me it was very clear that at some point, this question of bodily authority for women and this ongoing struggle for, their basic right to choose their dress code will one day become, , the engine of another protest.

[00:21:43] Fatemeh Shams: mm-hmm. , I always truly and deeply believed that one day women will erupt against this regime. But it was, for those of us who were born and raised after,the rise of the Islamic Republic and after the revolution, it was difficult to imagine how it looks like. . I believe that it’ll happen, but I never could imagine how it looks like.

[00:22:07] Fatemeh Shams: Definitely not in the way that happened this time. mm-hmm. , , which really just showed how, this years of 44 years of oppression, has, , created piles and piles of anger and rage, and suddenly it has erupted like a volcano that all these women and girls who came to the streets and took, , sort of the leadership of this, unprecedented movement.

[00:22:31] Is, is really the continuation of that personal struggle, that happened, I’m sure to many other women also who have been fighting, , different layers of oppression in their families In their, marriages, in their friendships, in their institutions that they work so, and in that sense, I think what happened this time is really quite remarkable and so powerful that cannot be, suppressed.

[00:22:56] Fatemeh Shams: Anymore. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. ..

[00:22:58] Nahid Siamdoust: Was there one moment,during these, past months of the woman life revolution, I mean, woman, ri woman, life freedom,

[00:23:04] Fatemeh Shams: revolution is a revolution. , yes. Goodness.

[00:23:06] that, that was most ev evocative for you. I don’t know. Was there one moment where, I don’t know.

[00:23:11] Nahid Siamdoust: I mean, it’s, there was so many moments. I

[00:23:13] Fatemeh Shams: say there are so many moments. I mean, I would say really like every single photo of, these women who, and girls who were, on top of the cars,wheeling their, their head scarves in, in the air and shouting death to the dictator. One of them, I believe it was in my hometown mash hat.

[00:23:35] Fatemeh Shams: It was incredible to watch that,that level of courage. just unbelievable to me, growing up in that city. I just cannot imagine what, how much you have to give up in terms of,, the consequences that, , this woman might come from a family, that is quite conservative.

[00:23:53] and, , they consider it, against their honor and their values if a female member of their families end up in jail they, it seems like they’re just so fed up with the situation that they just. Couldn’t care less. and to me that was quite inspiring. And in a way, opener.

[00:24:09] also,the, I think it’s just, these girls who, and women who have been blinded in their eyes and stare into the camera and smile with one eye, sending messages to those who sh who shot them in the eye saying that, , I can still smile and I will remain until the day, of freedom.

[00:24:28] Fatemeh Shams: And I think, these messages, I could never imagine that we see what we see today. and to me that’s just, you know, the most powerful, I think, scenes of this revolut.

[00:24:42] Nahid Siamdoust: I mean, those are unbelievable images. And I remember a few years back watching the Handmaid’s Tale. And of course, there they, as a form of punishment, they gouge out the eyes of some of these maidens, hand maidens.

[00:24:55] Nahid Siamdoust: Yeah. And I mean, there’s,

[00:24:57] Fatemeh Shams: they’re just, I think they, there were some, comparisons also on social media, pictures of handmade style next to the pictures of these women from Iran. And men also. Not just women. Yeah. Right.

[00:25:10] Nahid Siamdoust: Also, the men,this incredibly powerful female, voice. The women’s voices in Iran seem to have been underestimated for, a long time.

[00:25:19] Nahid Siamdoust: And now they have erupted. And I know. you spoke at a conference at the University of Toronto about how the female voice in Persian poetry has also really not been taken into consideration. How, some of the main, celebrated the majority of the celebrator except for of course, everybody’s favorite.

[00:25:39] Nahid Siamdoust: But aside from her, how pretty much every other celebrated voice and how Persian poetry has been defined through the writings of male poets. And I wonder if you could just comment on that a little bit. I thought that was such a, such an important argument,that you made in that talk that you gave.

[00:25:58] yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. yeah. You know, I was always fascinated by, The role of women in Persian in the Persian tradition, women poets in particular. And it always, made me very angry whenever I, looked at the historiography, books and, sort of major canon, those who actually have defined the major canons of poetry in the medieval period.

[00:26:21] Fatemeh Shams: And later on, that,the name of these, fascinating, extremely powerful, female poets have always been wiped off, written off the history, or has been really just present in the margins of, of the history. and, in that talk, I try to, to kind of give a brief summary of,key poets, women poets in the past, who we might have, just heard their names, but we don’t know about their importance, in the tra informing and shaping the tradition.

[00:26:49] and as you know,growing up in Iran, especially in modern, the modern period, we keep hearing the name of just a couple of, women poets, particularly osa, who of course is one of the most iconic figures of Persian poetry and Simbe, as well. But these are really just, uh,daughters of,poets who lived.

[00:27:11] Fatemeh Shams: In, in earlier centuries and starting with, rabbi Ben, uh, we know her also as Rob Ri, who is to me, really one of the most revolutionary figures of, of the Persian poetic tradition. She was, a poet princess, lived in, the city of LF in today’s Afghanistan. Mm-hmm. , , also the first victim of honor killing.

[00:27:35] Fatemeh Shams: She was,killed in the hands of her brother. mm-hmm. after her brother. Found out that she has fallen in love with, one of his slaves back, Tosh. all we really know about her, we know that she was,really, wonderful poet. Um, what century

[00:27:51] Nahid Siamdoust: is, she’s the trader, uh,

[00:27:51] Fatemeh Shams: she’s in 10th century.

[00:27:53] Fatemeh Shams: . So she’s contemporary with, ruak key, who we all know as the father of Persian poetry. , and, you know, .. I guess my contention always was that, if he’s the father, then who is the mother and ? Although Although I, you know, I have my own problems with those terms, father and mother But, I think she really,played such an important role in forming, sort of coining some of the most important terms that later on we have,observed in, for example, the mystical tradition. she was the first one to, there were the first woman poet and also the first poet, really to write macaroni verse, um, multilingualism, in Persian poetry is, tied to her name.

[00:28:37] Fatemeh Shams: But we don’t hear this in the tradition. Nobody really. Talked about this. and, uh, and you know, also her notion of love and how she always has been mystified by male histor, graphers and male poets who came afterwards and tried to kind of purify her poetic image and, social image because they didn’t want it to be tainted with, with what happened to her at the end of her life.

[00:29:06] . meaning the honor killing being killed in the hands of her brother. So I also wanted to demystify that image and show that she was a brave, courageous woman who actually, dared to love and knew what love is and wrote beautiful poetry about this body, experience. of love. And also after her we have Majak.

[00:29:28] We have, Han Malik Haun, who was also the contemporary of, uh, and ob uh, another princess poet who wrote beautiful, stunning sonnets, and actually collected her own Devon. but she wasn’t the subject of,re research until only very recently. and, when you read her sonnets, you see that there are like very interesting resonances, with the work ofk.

[00:29:57] Fatemeh Shams: And my question, Was and still is that what happened throughout the history of Persian literature, that the voice of these women were pushed to the margins of, uh, of the history. Mm-hmm. and what can we learn today in the middle of a woman-led revolution from this extremely male dominant historiography that always, uh, marginalize the voice of the women.

[00:30:23] Fatemeh Shams: And I think it’s a fear that is very relevant also to. Today’s a struggle for freedom, is that this movement that started by the state murder of a Kurdish Iranian woman, Gino Amini, who’s, you, we, universally known as Massau, a name that, was given to her. because most of the Kurdish, citizens of Iran are not allowed to use their Kurdish names.

[00:30:51] in, official documents. . So the reason that we ha we know her as Masa is because her real name, Gina, which is beautiful and means life has been always marginalized and pushed, under the carpet. and I think, this kind of erosion of identity, erasure of identity that we see in the case of Masa, whose body really symbolizes, I think history, this history of erosion of the female identity, can, can at least invite us to think that how can we proceed with this revolution?

[00:31:23] , in order to avoid that, in order to not let this revolution to be co-opted by those whose main values and goals for this revolution don’t really match. the spirit of this revolution, which is to me is, very much, feminine spirit. and a lot of, People argue against this saying that by calling this,female, feminist revolution or, woman-led revolution, you are trying to reduce the, sort of, the goals or, the, the values of this revolution, to something that is, not as important or not as radical.

[00:32:01] Fatemeh Shams: Well, that’s wrong. I think that’s quite misleading to argue. I think that if, and as that the slogan, the key slogan of this movement, woman Life Freedom, which comes from, the years of a century of grassroots work of women, Kurdish women in Turkey, in, in Syria, in Iran, as. slogan,makes it clear, if the freedom of women will be the core and the main, sort of, engine, of a revolution, then other,other, goals and other, aspirations will be also realized. Mm-hmm. by pushing that goal and,the core of the slogan into the margins, we might actually end up facing another co-opted revolution like the 1979. And that is something that I think about every day really.

[00:32:53] Fatemeh Shams: Sorry, that was a really long answer to

[00:32:55] Nahid Siamdoust: your No, that was, that is really also important because ultimately, that goes to the core of this revolution and the slogan, which is that there won’t be freedom for anyone unless there’s freedom for women. Right? Absolutely. and I think you explained that really, beautifully.

[00:33:09] Nahid Siamdoust: And, so I do we see that reflected sort of this feminist voice, this feminist reclaiming of this revolutionary process. Do we see that reflected in the kinds of slogans that we hear in the streets? I wanna, aside from Zan Zdi Zania of course, which in itself is the main slogan, but I wonder, is it also reflected in other slogans that you’ve picked up on in these protests?

[00:33:31] Fatemeh Shams: Um,so I think one of. really interesting. So the answer to that question is yes. one of the most fascinating, slogans that I heard, I think it was being chanted in one of the university campuses. I believe it was Azara University, and then later on in Sherry University, two.

[00:33:52] Fatemeh Shams: Mm-hmm. ,, which was,you are sorry. He’s

[00:33:55] which means you are the pervert. I’m the free woman, or I’m the Nobel woman. And to me that you and I, that,self positioning against this, the gaze of the oppressor, which is also the gaze of the patriarch, which is the pervert, the per the pervert gaze. Mm-hmm. of the ca The patriarch, basically.

[00:34:14] Fatemeh Shams: To me that was, such a, remarkable, way of, criticizing the dictatorship from the feminine position, from the position of the woman, women in this movement, or, we had,slogans that were borrowed from the time of the war, when, the ward’s son was replaced by the ward.

[00:34:34] daughter. . When, and I believe this happened after, mass arrests of a lot of, Iranian, women students,in the height of the protests, , that I believe women were actually women, students were chanting that go and tell my mother that I, that she doesn’t have, uh, a daughter anymore.

[00:34:52] Fatemeh Shams: Yes. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . . And also we hear a lot of, the name of a lot of,female protestors, particularly teens who were killed in Niko, for example. And, many other names. Massau herself, Moham Ma Haseen Beja, I think,which is basically another version of Jsu Charlie, what happened after Charlie Hdu, um, um, and this time it became J Massau. and saying that Moham Mao has team, I think what is important about that is that, Mao or came from this. Very marginal border city, border town, uh, ez, um, in the Kurdish region. Right. Uh, and she somehow manifested all the grievances, all the deprivations, economic class-based, gender-based,religious ethnici, everything was there.

[00:35:45] Fatemeh Shams: And I think it was just fascinating to see how,she represented all those grievances. . And then I, at some point there was also, in the slogans, we also saw,this rage and vengeful kind of, set of, slogans, which were mostly,Kind of interpreted or understood as being anti-feminist or anti-women, um, because they use just, they use of swear words, basically.

[00:36:14] Fatemeh Shams: Exactly. Slandering, kind of, slogans. which, I wrote my own criticism about those, and I think it shows that, our path to, realize, goals and, aspirations of this revolutions is, is, not an easy one because , we do have to really just, start reforming the language from within and try to address that.

[00:36:36] Fatemeh Shams: But at the same time, I think, when. , these, slandering slogans came out and were chanted in the streets. mainly they were trying in effect, to reject the very legitimacy of the state and Iran security forces to kind of delegitimize, that,system of oppression against women.

[00:36:56] Fatemeh Shams: So, , there was this, double. effect about those, about those slogans that I think, was interesting. Yeah,

[00:37:04] Nahid Siamdoust: I thought those were really interesting too. And, I understood them as being a sort of gender equalizing kind of, strategy because there’s sexist, swear words that exist in most languages as far as I know, having to do with, people’s mothers and sisters private parts.

[00:37:20] Nahid Siamdoust: And, but somehow young women shouting out those swear words to me seem to signal just the complete transgression of any kind of moral,propriety. Yeah. And of course, when a system is based on a notion of morality that is at the core corrupt, I felt that those slogans really somehow countered that.

[00:37:42] Nahid Siamdoust: But anyway, I was very interested in the debates that were ongoing back then about those very specific slogans. Yeah. . and I wonder now that we’re talking about that, what. . There was also a lot of controversy, of course, around, the slogan, mad Mehan, ADI

[00:37:57] Fatemeh Shams: Oh yeah. Man,

[00:37:58] Nahid Siamdoust: homeland, prosperity.

[00:38:00] Mm-hmm. that countered Zan Zdi Azadi. Right, right. What did you, where did you fall on the spectrum on that? Because there were those who argued. This is an,you know, inherently sort of, patriarchal slogan that has come out. it’s a counter revolutionary slogan, in fact. And there were some who argued that, no, this is just trying to represent the male aspect of this revolutionary movement.

[00:38:19] Nahid Siamdoust: I wonder what you thought of that slogan.

[00:38:21] Fatemeh Shams: Yeah, I think the slogan itself for the first time came out when Shervin sang the song, for the sake of which, which recently won the Grammy award. and I think where he found it was just a tweet on Twitter, like a, basically just a, one of those tweets that he.

[00:38:39] Fatemeh Shams: Picked in order to rhyme,his lyrics. and, and it’s interesting that in that, in his song,woman Life Freedom, man, Homeland, I Dunno, prosperity, doesn’t exactly rhyme together. They don’t sit next to each other. the second time that they, we heard it, it was on university campus where, where male students were chanting woman, life freedom, Zandig, Azadi, and, female students were responding by saying Mad

[00:39:10] Mm-hmm. . . Then the problem, I think started from when this slogan started being co-opted by. by two groups. essentially one. we saw it coming out in the, in sort of the billboards of, of the government in Iran. that, that was immediately understood by the opposition as the erasure.

[00:39:34] Fatemeh Shams: The ward woman and also the erasure of the central,slogan of the movement, which had its Kurdish roots. And we know that the, this,the Islamic Republic for the past 44 years have, has been trying constantly to accuse the Kurdish, movement as separatists. So they were mm-hmm.looking for an excuse for an opportunity to erase the, core slogan of the movement. And here, they are, they had a wonderful opportunity of another, sort of stanza that rhymed with the, with, Zan. And so when they started using that , people in the social media. started to react to that.

[00:40:11] up to that moment, I think it was just, a slogan, like any other slogan that people were particularly students in Iran started to use it in university campuses and what happened was that they were using it as a back and forth sort of, responding to each other. But then later on, those who, adopted,mad Mehan Abadi, they.

[00:40:34] Fatemeh Shams: or basically they tried to hijack, the core slogan after the revolution. one of the core slogans after the revolution without referring to the first part of the slogan, which was deeply problematic, right? . And then we saw,some, parts of the opposition also suddenly constantly referring to that, part that as if, if there is no equivalent for woman life freedom, like aspirations of the revolution, are lost. Right? and I think that was the moment of controversy when people who. Uh, wanted to keep, and maintain the spirit of the revolution and its core slogan. started to get a little bit worried and concerned about the intentions of those people who were using Magni without re referring to, to Zdi.

[00:41:24] I think at this point it has become problematic for those reasons. and it has become, mad Han Abadi has become kind of, a slogan on its own, which represents the values that are still, don’t center women and their, struggle as the sort of the center and the core of this movement and those who.

[00:41:44] Fatemeh Shams: emphasize on woman life freedom and reject, mad zk, mad Mehan Abadi, argue that, this is essentially a feminist revolution and you, you can’t really impose, yet another, sort of masculine,set of values on this revolution, after just four months. Mm-hmm. . . So that’s my take on it.

[00:42:03] I personally don’t use it. I think, woman life freedom is enough and it in itself, it entails all those values that tries to convey and also, but making that binary gender-based, to me of a woman versus man. I find it again, a little bit, offputting to be. . , thank you so

[00:42:22] Nahid Siamdoust: much for that explanation.

[00:42:23] Nahid Siamdoust: You just took us so beautifully through the chronology of the, appearance of that slogan and it’s, sort of progression and sort of, devolution, if you will, from something that was quite innocent to something that was then weaponized, to really counter the revolutionary Yeah.

[00:42:39] Nahid Siamdoust: Slogan. and have you seen any poetry coming out of, I know you’re paying close attention to poetry, have you seen poetry written in the wake of the woman life freedom movement that’s really spoken to you? Any that you would perhaps be prepared or able to maybe read us a few verses from any poetry that you’ve loved, from what’s been produced for this movement in particular?

[00:43:01] Fatemeh Shams: yes, indeed. I mean, there have. There have been outpouring of,poetry and songs as you know,because you yourself are an expert on this topic of songs and, lyrics. so it’s been a really, fascinating few months to just watch how,you know, this revolution is unfolding in the literary scene.

[00:43:22] I have to say, compared to 2009 this time, the level of, pace and also the amount of. the number of poetry, the number of poems and songs that have been produced has been just so remarkable and I’ve written about revolution and protest literature, but, and so this is not the first time that we see, poetry and, revolution or poetry and politics being so intermingled.

[00:43:49] Uh, but I think what’s really fascinating about this time is that. . first of all, we see how performative this, poems are in the sense that, a lot of them, immediately turn into songs or,the poets, sit in front of the camera and, perform them and put the video on social media.

[00:44:08] Fatemeh Shams: And I think that’s just also has to do with the power of social media. And it, it’s, this is partly also a digital revolution in my opinion. So, even poets has, poets have found the sort of the urgency of conveying their, their message through poetry. Um,and through sort of that, platform, the audio visual platform uh, so a lot of these poems, sometimes we see that,they’re published as a sort of a video. one thing that is interesting is that, I mean, as ex expected, I guess, we see that the core slogan of the revolution, woman, life freedom is very, Present In a lot of these, poems, we see that the word, woman or Zan and tan in Persian, which, you know, and man, so, Zan is woman, tan is body, and man is I, these three, which beautifully also rhyme in Persian.

[00:45:04] Fatemeh Shams: And also then you have Mehan, which means, Homeland. Um, so you see a lot of, poems playing with these words and, trying to,use that mu musicality in Persian poetry and also in Persian language, to, for, to show this, positionality. particularly in the work of many women poets, we see that and sometimes we see that Zan an tan and Han and Rohan, which means like, Beau means light. Rhyme Against Rahman, which is in Therianism is, the demonn basically, or the source of evil here being the regime, the government. so that’s one fascinating. I think the musicality of,how wards, rhyme with women and how they make it to poetry and songs, and another, interesting aspect is that, a lot of women poets, draw on the tradition that I, that I, talked about.

[00:45:56] Fatemeh Shams: For example, we see, the name of Robert, the name of,know, being documented in the poems. and these, women poets sort of identify themselves as, the resurrected body of these poets who lived throughout the history. Um, mm-hmm. . I . really like the, youone of the poems by, one of the living, Iranian, women poet Muk, for example.

[00:46:25] Fatemeh Shams: Mm-hmm. ,um, in a poem that she refers to, the Cut. Hers of p to the torn mask of, and,the courageous and daring tongue of Rob Bente cap. and also to the, to the defiant, um,spirit of . also, we see that, we see the name of Masa, and also Jean being mm-hmm.Constantly rhymed or used in the poems. what is also really interesting is that sometimes we can see, the deeply,sort of anti violent, spirit of this revolution unfolding in the poems of this, of this. Episode, for example. Mm-hmm. in a poem Aza wrote, which I think was fascinating, is that she was addressing the soldier, and saying that , don’t take your gun, in my face because I have brought my hairs to the battlefield. . So this, I think, this kind of, counter, Almost like metaphorical presence of the gun on the one side, one side and the woman’s hair on the other shows that, how hairs this time became the main weapon in the hand of the women.

[00:47:44] so yeah, I, a lot of, beautiful poems that, we saw coming out in this period, in, in all different forms, really. and I’m still, waiting for more poems and every day I wake up and I see a new poem. Another aspect that was really interesting was the multilingualism of this uhhuh, of this period because, as you know,from Stan to Stan, to, , like people were out and chanting.

[00:48:10] so some of these poems also. emphasized on that multilingual lingual aspect of this, revolution. And there was a poem by Meja, for example, who, said that, today in what language Iran is crying. Is it Arabic? Is it Persian? Is it Turkish? Is it Kurdish? Is it Ucci? and then, the poem goes, sort of from one language, into another.

[00:48:33] so these are, I think novel, aspects and dimensions of poems in this period that we didn’t see in previous period.

[00:48:41] Nahid Siamdoust: Wow. That’s beautiful. Thank you for , leading us into that field of poetry and, the evocative sort of nature of the beautiful hair, right? Yeah. The allegory of the hair, fighting, the violence of the gun is really just, so, so powerful.

[00:48:57] Nahid Siamdoust: And, Fatima, is there a place, I’m just curious for anybody listening and who would like to check in on this poetry. Is anybody collecting these on any sites, or are you just finding them on different people’s personal social media sites? And I assume nobody’s started some kind

[00:49:10] Fatemeh Shams: of site to the, there is a site actually that,poet friend of mine, SEP, started on Telegram, it’s called Poetry,1401 or she, so.

[00:49:23] Fatemeh Shams: she has, done a fantastic job, so far. She has, uh, she’s still collecting. In fact, every day she’s, she’s posting and,poems, whatever is written inside and outside of Iran. Um, they, she’s, she’s collecting all of them there. So. Wonderful.

[00:49:41] that’s a really wonderful resource for those who wanna, go read some of the poetry that you’ve so beautifully mentioned.

[00:49:46] thank you so much, Fatima. John, if I may just close with, just a, just maybe two more questions. One being, as somebody who’s so intimately familiar with Iran and the work being produced there by writers and poets,what do you see as your role,um, you know, is situated outside yet so intimately involved with everything happening there?

[00:50:06] what do you, how do you sort of, how do you navigate through your days here?

[00:50:10] yeah. Yeah. . I mean, I guess my, I try to use my voice and also,what, whatever my skills, I guess as mainly as a poet, scholar, to, as much as I can to be the voice of mainly not, that I’m not trying to be the voice of protestors, of course.

[00:50:31] I’m trying my best to be as active and vocal as I can, but to follow up on, the situation and the status of the imprisoned, students, academics, and poets and writers. So, that’s been one thing that, I have put in priority over the past few months. trying to write statements, with the help of some colleagues to protest against the dismissal and purchase of professors and academics has been one thing that I’ve.

[00:51:00] Fatemeh Shams: I’ve been trying to, you know,constantly to keep up with, or being part of different,gatherings and panels, as yourself, have, has, have been very active. I’ve tried to also,to be present in non Persian speaking media because I think it’s extremely important to give, a perspective that is not,only,focused on only a limited version or, aspect of the, of what is happening on the ground in Iran.

[00:51:25] Fatemeh Shams: And because it’s very easy for, this revolution to be hijacked by, the hands of the Islamic Republic, for example, that have been extremely active over the past four decades outside the country, or radical,actors who, whose, you know, whose Kind of position could be then eventually, ultimately dangerous for the fate of the Iranian people.

[00:51:46] so it’s been a really difficult path to navigate, trying to try to, to keep everything into account. on a personal level. It’s, I found, I find it quite challenging, to be honest. it, it’s, to have my family back in Iran. My, my parents and my sister who, have been also, participating in the protests over the past few months.

[00:52:06] Fatemeh Shams: So it’s been a really difficult time to, to wake up to the news every day. but I guess, every, this is not just me. It’s, it’s really a tough time for all Iranians, across the globe and going to the protests, I think. and just being present there physically, was one thing that I think was, quite helpful for me to at least,be there, be out there and put my body, although it’s not, nothing close to, what, these brave people in Iran are risking their lives every day.

[00:52:39] But yeah,that’s what has been happening.

[00:52:42] Nahid Siamdoust: Definitely difficult, at both exhilarating and at times devastating and yet hopeful. Period. Um, my last question to you, tomorrow is the 11th of February. 44th anniversary of the revolution. your feelings? Well,

[00:52:58] I think for the first time I, in the past, , 39 years that I’ve been alive and, 23 years of it, was spent under the rule of Islamic Republic.

[00:53:14] Fatemeh Shams: I think for the first time, I feel that there is an alliance between all fronts of Iran, uh, the regime’s opposition inside and outside of the country. Those who have, paid the price for freedom, in the country. For the first time. I see an alliance, which I think is very empowering and helpful, are hopeful.

[00:53:39] and for the first time I feel that. We might actually get somewhere. I also think that the path to freedom is going to be a rocky one. It’s not going to be very easy and it’s not going to be short. and today I’m particularly happy because, over the past few days we saw the mass release of the political prisoners.

[00:53:59] Fatemeh Shams: Although, we were talking about this before the show that, this can be very easily,used by the government, in order to bar as a bargaining chip, with the West. and we have to be very careful and diligent to not let that happen. But I think it’s really just shows the how powerful this movement has become.

[00:54:20] Fatemeh Shams: And I don’t think that this government would have, stepped back or retreated and actually let so many people out hadn’t been, because of, such a defiance and resistance that Iranian people inside and outside of country have shown over the past five months. So I think this time, is different in that sense.

[00:54:42] and I really hope that the next year will be a year of,realization of those dreams. and,I think we are one step closer to the victory and to the freedom that we have been fighting for.

[00:54:55] Nahid Siamdoust: Thank you so much for shams. It’s been such a pleasure to have you on this program and to really get your wonderful insights.

[00:55:02] Nahid Siamdoust: And I so appreciate you on the work that you do, and thank you so much for leading us into these different worlds, that you’re so deeply engaged

[00:55:10] Fatemeh Shams: with. Thank you so much, Naija. it was such a pleasure. And I, just that the feeling is mutual and I think what you’re doing in archiving these voices and memories, is extremely valuable.

[00:55:23] and I thank you for that and for having me on this podcast.

[00:55:26] Nahid Siamdoust: Thank you so much, Dr. Fatima Shams, poet and assistant professor of Persian Literature at the University of Pennsylvania, author of A Revolution in Rhyme.

[00:55:36] Nahid Siamdoust: Thank you for listening. My guest was Fatima Shams, poet and assistant professor of Persian Literature at U.

[00:55:48] Nahid Siamdoust: You were listening to an episode of Woman Life Freedom, all in on Iran broadcast to you from the University of Texas at Austin. I’m your host, Naji. Until next time, Azadi Adi.