Discussing “What Iranians Want: Women, Life, Freedom” with Arash Azizi

[00:00:00] Nahid Siamdoust: In the name of the God of Rainbows, welcome to Woman Life Freedom, all in on Iran – a podcast series that we began in early 2023 to go deep in conversations with experts on various aspects of the revolutionary uprising that began in Iran in September, 2022, when 22-year-old Mahsa Jina Amini was killed in morality police detention in Tehran.

[00:00:27] Nahid Siamdoust: In each episode, we unpack an important aspect of what was a historic moment unfolding in Iran, with large ripple effects that continue today. The uprising will be studied by historians and social scientists for many years to come, and discussed by everyday people in their reflections of the country’s tumultuous path.

[00:00:46] Nahid Siamdoust: And we intend to quote unquote archive our experts insights today, in the wake of these recent events. close to the details, leaving an oral resource for the general public and scholars alike. I’m your host, Nahid Siamdoust, an assistant professor in Media and Middle Eastern studies at the University of Texas at Austin.

[00:01:06] Nahid Siamdoust: Stay tuned. Okay. And, um, here with us today, we have Arash Azizi, who’s a historian of the 20th century social and political movements. with a particular interest in global socialism. He’s a senior lecturer in history and political science at Clemson University and a contributing writer at the Atlantic.

[00:01:25] Nahid Siamdoust: His new book, What Iranians Want: Women, Life, Freedom will be published very soon. Uh, by the time you hear this podcast is potentially already published in January. 2024 and I think congratulations are in order, Arash, because you have also recently received your doctorate. You’ve completed your dissertation.

[00:01:45] Nahid Siamdoust: Is that correct?

[00:01:47] Arash Azizi: That’s right. Thank you very much. I defended a few months ago.

[00:01:51] Nahid Siamdoust: Wonderful. So you are now Dr. Arash. And, um, I also want to mention, of course, your former book. This is the second [00:02:00] book you’ve published. Um, and, you know, perhaps there are others, uh, in Persian that I don’t know of. Um,

[00:02:06] Arash Azizi: No, but the writing, I mean, I’ve published books in translation, but in writing, these are the two, uh, that I’ve written in

[00:02:11] Nahid Siamdoust: English.

[00:02:12] Nahid Siamdoust: Wonderful. So your very first book, uh, was titled the shadow commander Soleimani, the U S and Iran’s. Global Ambitions, um, published in 2021, if I’m correct, yes,

[00:02:25] Arash Azizi: November, 2020. So close. Yes. Oh,

[00:02:27] Nahid Siamdoust: November, 2020. Okay. Wonderful. It’s so wonderful having you here today, Arash. Um, your book. Um, You know, is, as it says on the back cover, the first major book on the uprisings in Iran in 2022 and 2023.

[00:02:43] Nahid Siamdoust: Uh, I know Malu Halasa in England has published a book a couple of months ago, but it’s much more sort of a compilation of other people’s writings. So this is really the first book to provide. a narrative by an author on the woman life [00:03:00] freedom uprising. So what I wanted to do today is kind of talk with you about, um, you know, the different, uh, chapters in your book, different personalities and personas and events that you highlight throughout your book.

[00:03:14] Nahid Siamdoust: And then also a little bit, I, you know, ask you a little bit about your practice as a writer, because, um, that’s something that I. As an, as a former journalist, uh, you know, current academic interested in doing work that has public outreach. I’m very interested in the kind of work that you do and want to ask you a little bit about your practice as well.

[00:03:34] Nahid Siamdoust: But let’s head to your book first. Um, I know you say in the acknowledgements that. It was really, um, a request, um, by the publisher, um, by Novin Dostar that encouraged you to write this book. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about how you felt about sort of when you were thinking about whether or not writing this book, what were some of the thoughts that were going through your head in terms of challenges or things you [00:04:00] wanted?

[00:04:00] Nahid Siamdoust: What were some immediate thoughts that, that came to you?

[00:04:03] Arash Azizi: Thank you. That’s an excellent question. Um, I think when it comes to representations of revolutions and revolutionary movements, one thing that bugged me, and I’m sure it bugged you and a lot of others, is that, you know, by nature, um, coverage of protests and, and sort of mass movements like this can sort of be facile because, um, what is it that you can say?

[00:04:23] Arash Azizi: There are tons of people outside, they don’t like the government, they’re fighting against that, they’re being put down, um, um, and they’ll continue protesting and they’re, Put down again, um, and maybe some particular actions will be a lot of focus. And of course, uh, the world was in awe of Iranian people, in particular, Iranian women, um, they, the kind of actions that they had done, like, uh, you know, burning their enforced hijab.

[00:04:46] Arash Azizi: Um, and there was a sort of a lot of conversation and debates about this in, in various corners. But what I thought was, uh, perhaps a little lacking, or perhaps I could provide in a book like this, um, to show that actually this movement. [00:05:00] for, uh, woman life freedom as it had become encapsulated in this slogan that, as you know, was sort of borrowed from the Kurdish movement.

[00:05:06] Arash Azizi: Um, but, but nevertheless, it did well to encapsulate a sort of richness, um, and, a diversity of, of civil society and, and social movements in Iran. So what I really tried to do in this book is to give voice to this variety of social movements that came together to form the 2002 20, 2023 movement. Because of course, you know, they, um, There is no such a thing as a mass spontaneous movement, um, without this background to it.

[00:05:40] Arash Azizi: Um, and, and, as the title of the book says, What Iranians Want, of course, I don’t claim to, uh, you know, to know what every Iranian wants. But what I try to do as someone of sort of my generation as an Iranian, uh, you know, born in 1988, uh, was to try to show that 2022 wasn’t the first time that, uh, Iranians, um, had sort of, [00:06:00] uh, rising up against this Islamic Republic, the regime that had been oppressing them.

[00:06:05] Arash Azizi: Um, so in every chapter of the book, I look at one aspects, if you will, or one movement, um, most of it, uh, you know, about the last. let’s say 10, 15 to 20 years. There’s some, uh, you know, I talk about the, uh, anti compulsory hijab demonstrations of March, 1979. But other than that, it’s mostly about much more recent events.

[00:06:24] Arash Azizi: And, you know, whether it’s the labor, uh, rights trade union movement in Iran, whether it’s the environmental movement, um, the movement for artistic freedom, the movement for different foreign policies. So in each chapter, I try to, uh, talk about, The fight for one of this as the result of this. I hope if someone reads this book, they’ll get a better idea of why is it the Iranians are risking their lives, um, time and time again to fight.

[00:06:47] Arash Azizi: And what exactly is it that they’re fighting for? I

[00:06:51] Nahid Siamdoust: think you do that really, really well. And, you know, you Um, it is as much about the movement as it is, as you explained about taking us back and, [00:07:00] you know, drawing sort of these other social, um, political, uh, civic rights movements that have led to this moment.

[00:07:08] Nahid Siamdoust: And basically, you know, what I’ve noted is. you know, to just phrase it into one word is your first chapter is really sort of the movement for hijab and you, you, you know, try to trace some of those lines and the, the people who agitated for freedom over hijab. The second chapter is broadly speaking about the women’s rights movement in Iran.

[00:07:29] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, the third one, and I know your titles don’t immediately sort of, um, I think encapsulate necessarily sort of the depth of, you know, or the, the, um, the topic that you’re going to be delving in as such, but the third one being the labor movement, the fourth being the environmentalist movement, the fifth, um, which you’ve called, um, let me go back to your book.

[00:07:52] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, uh, we accused the fight for freedom of expression. You really go back to the chain murders and onward freedom of [00:08:00] expression. The sixth one, freedom of religion, I will say that was, um, potentially one of my favorite chapters because you take us to Balochistan and the rights of, you know, Sunnis and Baha’is and give us some depth into a religious leader who became prominent throughout the movement, Moulavi Abdul Hamid.

[00:08:19] Nahid Siamdoust: The seventh one about refugee rights, Afghani rights in Iran. The eighth chapter on, uh, you title it, let’s see, I give my life for freedom, the fight for peace. really is broadly about Iran’s geopolitical entanglements and foreign policy in the region. And the ninth, um, also for sure, uh, my favorite chapter about Sarina, how could it not be right?

[00:08:44] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, the fight for a normal life. So. I want to kind of take us back to having you explain to people who are listening to this podcast. Um, you know, you do write in your first chapter, and this is something that, of [00:09:00] course, we, we have talked about, you know, about how the compulsory hijab. was initially not seen as being a central issue for Iran’s, uh, women rights leaders and, um, feminist leaders.

[00:09:15] Nahid Siamdoust: Can you tell us a little bit about how the, you know, the fight against compulsory hijab became so central to fights for freedom and ultimately the woman life freedom movement.

[00:09:27] Arash Azizi: Thank you. And thank you very much for your kind words. Um, they, they really mean a lot to me. Um, you know, if, if, if, if the pages of this book are even readable in any, uh, in any way, I’d be, um, I’d be very happy.

[00:09:39] Arash Azizi: Um, yeah, I think this is an excellent question. I think one of the things that I hope this book shows is that history didn’t begin, you know, five years ago, and that there in fact has been a long, uh, sort of pedigree to, to struggles in Iran. And unfortunately, even in our own country, um, there’s some strange sort of historiography in which people will [00:10:00] think, oh, well, a bunch of people were just dupes and they sort of voted for reformists and, and so they didn’t do anything.

[00:10:05] Arash Azizi: And now we discovered that actually we have to fight against the Islamic Republic. Whereas I think the beauty of Iranian, uh, public life is it’s, uh, What I would call, it’s a very inspiring pragmatism in, in, at which in, in every turn people use whatever tools, uh, they can to better their lives. Sometimes these tools are voting in elections, and sometimes they are coming to streets in mass demonstrations, and sometimes they are organizing a book, bookstore somewhere or an NGO somewhere, right?

[00:10:35] Arash Azizi: So, um, but I think, so the feminist movement in Iran, uh, made a strategic choice at some point. Um, sections of the feminist movement, of course, it always included different sections, but in the late nineties and two thousands, I speak about this sort of revival of a feminist movement in Iran, um, which was led by, uh, you know, a bunch of sort of lawyers, rights activists, and they make a strategic decision that actually, well, [00:11:00] um, to, to try to go after compulsory hijab would be.

[00:11:03] Arash Azizi: too risky and too hard, and also potentially even divisive since they, you know, the movement included, um, you know, a large number of people who would not necessarily agree on that as a priority. So they go after, um, issues such as, uh, let’s say divorce rights. Uh, let’s say, you know, uh, trying to make progressive changes in law in favor of women and, and sort of the adoption of CEDAW, um, the convention, um, For elimination of discrimination against women, which the government of President Khatami was in favor of and the parliament was able to pass it.

[00:11:34] Arash Azizi: Um, and, but, you know, of course it, it, uh, died, um, in, and, uh, by the sort of unelected bodies of the Islamic Republic, which were able to nullify it. So they make a sort of a strategic choice to do that. Um, but at the same time, Um, I think sometimes maybe they went too far in trying to justify what was, what had been a strategic choice as to say, well, actually, it doesn’t really matter that, uh, that half the society has to, has to [00:12:00] wear the compulsory hijab.

[00:12:01] Arash Azizi: I think, you know, in trying to explain their priorities, sometimes perhaps they went too far. And of course, you know, um, the imposition of compulsory hijab, I think future histories will remember as a, a future stories of anywhere in the world of global history will remember as a. Um, singularly, uh, cruel and, um, unusual, in fact, measure.

[00:12:21] Arash Azizi: Um, no other country, uh, in the world, with now the possible exception of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, does this. Saudi Arabia, at its height of religious persecution, um, didn’t actually impose compulsory hijab. Everywhere. He did it in some places, but you did sort of didn’t do it everywhere. Funnily enough, if it wanted to enforce it, it would have much less problem doing it.

[00:12:42] Arash Azizi: Um, by which I mean the com, the voluntary wearing of hijab was much more predominant in many countries. Um, so in Iran you had a case of a country in which probably if it was up to the popula, I would say probably, I mean, I don’t want to guess. But I don’t think a majority would wear the hijab. Certainly not the form of a [00:13:00] job that the government expects them to.

[00:13:02] Arash Azizi: So you had this massive effort to really, um, enforce something on the Iranian public sphere, um, for which then you need to have cops. Um, and so this, this, this is, this very massive imposition. That somehow the movement in the late nineties and, and the two thousands had, you know, not prioritized, but there is at some point in which this becomes, um, uh, you know, this becomes something that people campaign about.

[00:13:27] Arash Azizi: And, and there are, there is a precedence in, you know, in a sort of couple of actions that I talk about in the book. Um, and also it has the potential that I think one of the issues of the feminist movement before was that. Um, you know, it, uh, you know, it basically, it, one of the, one of the good things about it was that, uh, you know, it was, as I said, a bunch of very educated feminists.

[00:13:47] Arash Azizi: Um, and, and so it had this sort of language and they had an excellent track record of taking these issues to the public. In my own life, I don’t think I’ve seen anything, any, I’ve been a political activist in many different countries. One of the most [00:14:00] glorious things I’ve ever seen was this campaign for 1 million signature in Iran, where This very educated feminist went all over Iran and talked to ordinary women and tried to tell them what this is your rights.

[00:14:11] Arash Azizi: Um, and these are things, you know, you can fight for. So despite that, however, you can see that it, um, in, in, you know, I don’t want to use the word elite necessarily, but focused on certain actions, um, that, um, that meant, you know, it sort of, they had, there was some, um, Uh, there was a bar into entry, like you needed to get active on some levels as opposed to, uh, the movement, uh, against compulsory hijab, which could be as simple as something like taking your hijab off and posting a picture of it, um, you know, as a campaign at some point had it now.

[00:14:42] Arash Azizi: Uh, this I think was both a liability and, and, you know, it was a great thing because it could all of a sudden involve hundreds of thousands of women, uh, and it’s resulted today as you and I are talking, of course, this on a stable situation in which there’s a massive campaign of civil disobedience of people not wearing their hijab and an increasing punishment [00:15:00] of it.

[00:15:00] Arash Azizi: Um, uh, so, you know, I think, and I say liability because of course when a movement is as easy as, uh, sort of, uh, civil disobedience actions like this. You know, what kind of organization it will have, and what kind of lasting effect it can make, uh, is going to be quite, uh, quite different than, than the previous generation.

[00:15:18] Arash Azizi: So I think in these first two chapters, when I talk about the broader feminist movement and also the fight against compulsory hijab, we can see some of the, um, contradictions and, and processes that the movements in Iran, um, have faced as they try to, uh, use different tactics to further their goals.

[00:15:37] Nahid Siamdoust: Right.

[00:15:37] Nahid Siamdoust: And of course you do write about, um, a figure who’s become quite contentious, especially more recently since the war in Gaza began, uh, Masih Ali Nejad as, um, you know, as somebody who was quite instrumental to starting some of these campaigns for unveiling. Um, and then subsequently the Girls of Revolution Street with Vida Movahed’s, um, [00:16:00] iconic sort of gesture of climbing on a utility box and holding her white Um, how do you, how do you sort of, you know, did you have any problems or, I don’t know, qualms trying to Uh, pen the beginnings of this movement, or was this all quite, um, clear to you?

[00:16:28] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, are you sort of caught up in any of these contentious, uh, discussions that, I don’t know, perhaps meddled with the way you were going to write this history?

[00:16:38] Arash Azizi: Yeah, you know, I think Masih has had an enormous role in this movement, and I write about it in the book. I tried to, of course, you know, Iran, Iranian community is relatively small.

[00:16:46] Arash Azizi: You know, I know Masih personally, obviously. I try to be fair. Uh, to her and her role, um, in the book, because I think her, the kind of campaign that she did, um, the kind of a straight up standing up to the Islamic Republic that she did [00:17:00] and the high price that she’s paid as, you know, being hounded by the regime, that there have been attempts to, to kill her, to kidnap her on the, in the U.

[00:17:06] Arash Azizi: S. soil. And I tried to be fair to the, I think the important role that she had, but as I mentioned earlier, there are two things that, you know, there are two sort of critical points that one could raise here. One is that the, the kind of activism that Masih really. Helped, uh, increase in Iran was this idea that, you know, you can post a picture and you can sort of, uh, click a button and, and so do some activist action can be very dangerous in a way by, by which I mean, it can be misleading because it can give this idea to people, um, that, uh, you know, with enough hashtags and retweets, you can, you can change governments and you cannot, and I think this is one of the Transcribed Uh, serious troubles that we’ve had in Iran, um, that there are many people really seemingly thought that, um, this kind of online action can, can change things without organization.

[00:17:54] Arash Azizi: And in fact, they sometimes wrote long articles from both left and the right arguing that, you know, horizontalism is great [00:18:00] and you don’t need organizations. And I think that’s it. disastrous mistake. Um, and I think that’s what has stopped the movement so far, um, that, you know, the lack of organizations.

[00:18:08] Arash Azizi: And I think this is something that, of course, I’m not saying she was single, uh, singularly responsible for it because, I mean, it’s not like others did better at some point, she actually, uh, did a very important work also in trying to bring people of different backgrounds together. Um, uh, and, you know, because she has always been sort of very ambitious.

[00:18:25] Arash Azizi: Um, uh, you know, that didn’t quite work out, but at any rate, this kind of activism, um, it can be also misleading. You cannot change the world by, by retweeting. I hope that that much is clear by now. And you cannot change the world without organization and, and, um, you know, without, um, without in fact some sort of a structure.

[00:18:44] Arash Azizi: The second point, of course, is that, uh, Masih could have, uh, remained a sort of a, let’s say, she could have remained, you know, she, she had, as her profile rose, she had different choices. She could have either become a [00:19:00] single issue activists that really try to own this issue of compulsory hijab and broader women’s rights and sort of be a supra partisan, if you will, some sort of non partisan.

[00:19:10] Arash Azizi: But she didn’t do that. Of course, she started also advocating for very particular policies. And that’s fine. Then she could have Um, you know, she could have made the transition to a political activist and in a way she has, but then in this transition, she supports policies that, uh, you know, are necessarily not supportable by myself and by others.

[00:19:28] Arash Azizi: Um, uh, recently, of course, definitely recently, of course, um, she, uh, very worryingly on the sidelines of a conference in Canada, she effectively called for a military strike on Iran, which I, uh, you know, which I consider to be a. Uh, to be a disastrous mistake. And I, you know, in my public media work, I, I criticize her for that.

[00:19:50] Arash Azizi: And, but it, but it makes it even worse than the actual thing is that it seems to have been some sort of an afterthought, um, um, that she mentions in a speech. And I think this, the, the roots of this were already [00:20:00] there in some of her previous political. engagements when she opposed the nuclear talks, um, uh, when they were going on and when they had some results, um, and, and some of the other sort of policies that she has calibrated.

[00:20:14] Arash Azizi: Basically, I don’t think she’s done very well in this, uh, in this transition from a, an activist. a single issue activist, if you will, to this broader political activist. I don’t think she’s done very well because, because the kind of policies that she’s supported, um, are no longer supported by, you know, I, I can’t support them myself as a progressive.

[00:20:33] Arash Azizi: Um, but also I don’t think they’re actually very coherent. Um, also, um, I, you know, I don’t think, um, you know, um, You know, you, you cannot, uh, you cannot sort of stand for a politics without defending them on your own grounds, um, by which I mean, uh, you cannot just say, well, this is what the people of Iran want.

[00:20:52] Arash Azizi: And, you know, you know, you’re a political activist, that’s fine. There are different policies you can advocate, but if you advocate for disastrous policies like [00:21:00] a military strike on Iran. We will oppose you at every turn. Um, uh, because that, you know, that would be really, uh, disastrous. And, uh, I, uh, you know, uh, so, so this is, this is, this is sort of what my issues and the kind of criticism that I have, this hasn’t necessarily made it into the book partially because these comments actually were made after the book was written, um, you know, um, and also because.

[00:21:24] Arash Azizi: Nevertheless, I, I believe she had an important role in the, any, anybody who wants to write the history of women’s movement in Iran would have to dedicate, uh, a chapter or some parts to Masih and, um, evaluate, uh, her role there. Um, and I think most fair, uh, critics will, will say that, you know, she did, she definitely, she was one of the most influential.

[00:21:44] Arash Azizi: A broad based activist at some point who was really able to engage, uh, 10 tens of thousands of people in unprecedented ways. But I think ultimately, unfortunately, she didn’t use this political capital, uh, very well. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .

[00:21:57] Nahid Siamdoust: And, you know, in, in your next chapter, in your second chapter, [00:22:00] you do highlight some of the women’s rights activists from within Iran.

[00:22:03] Nahid Siamdoust: Some of them have left. So you, you know, you mentioned me and the Nobel Prize, Nobel Peace Prize awardee. Um, and then. You know, you, you do give us some more detail on people who’ve been working from within prison to, uh, raise Iranian women’s voices and who’ve actually issued some of the most progressive manifestos that we’ve read.

[00:22:26] Nahid Siamdoust: in the course of women life freedom. So you mentioned people like Hidayat, Fariba Kamalabadi, Golrokh Irai, Sepideh Gholian. And I wonder, can you also comment a little bit about, you know, we have these women who’ve been working tirelessly. from within the framework of the Islamic Republic to gain rights for women.

[00:22:49] Nahid Siamdoust: Where do they stand now in the course of women life freedom? How do you position them? And what, you know, how do you see them and their work as, um, significant, [00:23:00] um, in the moment and potentially in the longterm?

[00:23:02] Arash Azizi: Um, yeah, they’re brilliant. Um, you know, potential leaders in Iranian prisons. Um, when I was writing the book, Narges hadn’t won the Nobel Peace Prize yet.

[00:23:12] Arash Azizi: She has now, which, which is sort of brilliant. Uh, she had also previously published a book with my, uh, publisher, One World. Um, so, uh, this was a, this was definitely a jolly news. Um, and yeah, Narges, like myself and many others had a, past of, you know, voted for Rouhani, um, in, in, um, in previous elections, like in 2017, she supported the vote for Rouhani and others, but she has now come to sort of advocate an overthrowing of the Islamic Republic and its replacement with a different system.

[00:23:41] Arash Azizi: Um, and I think that’s true, uh, about some other people, whether they, uh, you know, whether they advocated voting before. Um, inside Islamic Republic, um, or not, and many of them now advocate sort of getting rid of the regime. But, um, so there’s, there’s a diversity of voices. This, uh, the woman that you named, I [00:24:00] think what they had in common was that they organized it March 8th, International Women’s Day, uh, in, in Iranian prisons, uh, in, in 2023.

[00:24:08] Arash Azizi: And they spoke it together and they, they actually was, uh, just the names that you mentioned shows sort of a wonderful diversity. You have Far Kam Kadi, who is a Baha, and, and for those who don’t know, proponent of Baha, uh, fate, um, sort of don’t advocate partisan policies. So she’s just there for what she believes.

[00:24:25] Arash Azizi: Um, and she stands up for women’s rights, um, um, and for the rights of her cellmates without sort of acting, being active in partisan politics. And there’s Ian who identifies as a leftist, was then was a sort of a labor journalist and was arrested for that. And now I guess Mohammadi herself, who belongs to what you could call some sort of a center left, um, uh, political tradition in Iran, I would sort of broadly define it.

[00:24:49] Arash Azizi: So you have a, you have a very wide range of, um, of, uh, politics inside Iran. And in fact, I have to say, um, you know, we have to. You have to remember, this is [00:25:00] a very desperate, despairing, and sad moment in Iranian politics. There’s no way around it. I don’t think anyone looks at Iranian politics right now and says, Oh, everything’s couldn’t be better.

[00:25:09] Arash Azizi: Um, and especially compared to a year ago. And I think part of that is the reality that, you know, inside Iran, there’s this rich, uh, sort of political activity, but Things are effectively bottled up because of political repression, because, uh, you cannot do even the kind of work that you were able to do in late nineties or early two thousands in a, in a way, even let’s say around in the Rouhani administration, you know, so, um, you know, from 2013 onwards.

[00:25:36] Arash Azizi: Um, even those kinds of activities, which was already much, much, much more limited than late nineties and sort of early two thousands. So inside Iran, any political activity, any civic activity lands you in jail. Um, so that’s why it’s very hard to organize, but outside Iran, and unfortunately where there are no such, uh, there’s no such repression, there are no such obstacles.

[00:25:57] Arash Azizi: Um, there has been a lack of [00:26:00] appreciation of this richness of Iranian political traditions and, uh, You know, the kind of, uh, uh, terrible, uh, dividing up into a sort of mutually hostile groups that basically prioritize hostility to each other as opposed to sort of the Islamic Republic. Um, and also have, have, you know, frankly, uh, they’ve shown, they’ve done much less interesting work compared to, uh, these figures that I just named, uh, inside Iran.

[00:26:28] Arash Azizi: So, um, I hope that, I hope if this book shows anything, um, to anybody who wants to think about Iran and learn about Iran, um, is that I think we have to face off that, uh, no matter whether I or others outside, you know, whatever work we can do, really, um, the, um, the, the most impressive, um, inspiring and consequential, um, figures of Iranian politics are not outside the borders of Iran.

[00:26:57] Arash Azizi: They are inside, although we can echo [00:27:00] them and, and be their voice. Um, and of course we can also have our own politics. I don’t have sort of this moral vision that if once you leave the borders of Iran, you know, you can’t have any politics and anybody who is inside Iran is a saint. You know, I don’t think that, but I just think speaking factually, pragmatically, and I wouldn’t even have said that necessarily a couple of years ago.

[00:27:17] Arash Azizi: I had some more hopes for diaspora based movements. Um, I think the reality is if to be a bit humble is that it’s really, uh, it’s. These figures inside Iran, um, who, um, who have shown the best and most impressive, uh, political work, although they are also really constrained, as I said, because of the repression and because of the lack of, uh, political organization.

[00:27:41] Arash Azizi: Mm

[00:27:41] Nahid Siamdoust: hmm. And, you know, one of the, um, figures who you have sort of weaving her way through a couple of, uh, chapters is, of course, uh, Faiza Hashemi, the daughter of, um, Akbar Hashemi Rafsan Jani, the former, um, President of Iran. And, uh, it’s interesting because, you know, you mentioned the role of, um, [00:28:00] reformists and the fact that Nagez Mohammadi herself was a supporter of reformists.

[00:28:03] Nahid Siamdoust: And I think one of the most pernicious, um, developments that I’ve seen, um, is this ahistorical understanding of, um, the role of reformists in the United States. Anybody who ever collaborated with reformists or supported reformists is anathema in terms of anything to do with progress or, you know, change in Iran.

[00:28:22] Nahid Siamdoust: This, uh, you know, understanding this sort of revisionist, uh, history of post revolutionary Iran as if, you know, uh, there was never any support for these reformists, as if reformists were always seen as being implicit in, um, you know, the, the kind of power that is to be unseated in Iran. And I think that’s, that’s an interesting, um, you know, thread, um, that, you know, when you write about these people, that very much counters these, these newer claims that are, very much present in media productions, on social media, and the kinds of, you know, couture or [00:29:00] productions that people watch, a lot of Iranians watch, both inside and outside of Iran.

[00:29:05] Nahid Siamdoust: I wonder if, um, if you’ve, if you have any sort of comments on that. I

[00:29:09] Arash Azizi: absolutely agree with you that this is a revisionist history. That’s exactly, um, you know, that’s exactly what it is. It’s a revisionist history in which, uh, as I said, you, you know, the kind of the, the picture is Iranians were kind of just dupes going along with oppression, um, foolishly voting in these elections, uh, like fools believing that change can come from within Iran, within sort of the Islamic Republic until one day they woke up and they realized that’s not the case.

[00:29:35] Arash Azizi: Um, and then they rose up, um, and you know, now they’ve learned that the enemy is the regime. Um, it, this is, this is not serious history. The reality is the Islamic Republic has changed a lot, the opposition to it has changed a lot, a variety of political movements have, have changed a lot. Um, and, you know, reformists, um, have always had many limits, uh, contradictions, uh, problematics.[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Arash Azizi: Um, and definitely we need sort of a critical view of them. Um, and this is both reformist and their supporters, by which I mean, you know, reformist, let’s say by reformist, you know, capital R, we mean Islah Talab, a faction of the Islamic Republic that historically came to, um, support a variety of reform, reformist sort of ideas from the late nineties until today.

[00:30:22] Arash Azizi: Um, and. You know, some of them went much more far than others. As we, you and I are speaking on Mustafa Tajzadeh, a deputy interior minister under President Khatami is in jail and Tajzadeh effectively advocates abolishing the most basic tenets of the Islamic Republic. And he, he, he, uh, wants to get rid of the position of the supreme leader and makes it elected.

[00:30:42] Arash Azizi: Um, you know, so he is a very different kind of reformist than those that continue to serve in the parliament. continue to sort of be a very loyal opposition. So there’s a very wide range. And then there’s their social base because they didn’t have, this wasn’t like six people doing something. They had a mass social base, um, a mass social movement that got these [00:31:00] people elected, um, that worked with them.

[00:31:02] Arash Azizi: Uh, and then there was also a mass of, you know, people who did. different kind of social, uh, you know, social organizing, right? That people like Mehrangi’s car, um, you know, for many years now, uh, she did all sorts of activism inside her. And one of the people that I have a lot of respect for, uh, personally, she did.

[00:31:20] Arash Azizi: So all sorts of work from running a feminist, uh, book, uh, publication house or, um, sort of publishing books to, uh, I mean, she didn’t run the pub, the Shahla Lahiji ran the publication house. She collaborated with it. She ran a sort of legal office and, and, you know, tons of other examples. Um, and we really lose a lot by forgetting this history.

[00:31:39] Arash Azizi: And frankly, Um, I think you’re absolutely right that this is not just, uh, you know, this is not just, you know, some people abroad thinking that, um, I think some people in the new generations have really come to think that because they don’t know as much that history. And, and, um, uh, I think, and I think that’s bad because, um, it’s bad because it.

[00:31:58] Arash Azizi: It, uh, it [00:32:00] forgets, it lets us forget that actually there’s a long struggle against the Islamic Republic. Um, that, that didn’t just start five years ago. It’s also bad because we forget that we can have a sort of, um, we forget some of the great examples and lessons that we can take from that period where, as I said, a lot of people were organized very strictly.

[00:32:18] Arash Azizi: Serious work were done. And it’s kind of ironic that people who haven’t been able to organize anything themselves now scoff at people that, uh, you know, we’re able to do so much and at great, uh, great price that they paid for it, you know, nothing makes me sort of, um, you, you know, really angry in some ways, you know, you can, you want to say people say, Oh, Tajzadeh is, is one of themselves, for example, I mean, this figure that I mentioned, you know.

[00:32:44] Arash Azizi: This is a man who’s spent maybe nine years of the last 10, 15 years when, uh, you know, you and I and a lot of our listeners abroad, we were doing our dissertations, doing our work, going around, this man has spent maybe like nine years in jail. Um, and he, he’s [00:33:00] some, he’s somehow supposed to be, uh, sort of less radical than we are.

[00:33:04] Arash Azizi: Um, because he doesn’t agree with everything that, that, that is being said somewhere. Um, you know, and, and he’s just one example and you brought Faiza Hashemi as an example, you know, again, an example of really someone I have a lot of respect for myself. Um, of course she had privileges that, that none of us had, her father was the founding.

[00:33:24] Arash Azizi: Founding figure of this regime. Of course, she also has never really criticized her father. So there’s a lot of negative things you can say about Faiza, but she also shows the kind of uncompromising political activists and politician who doesn’t compromise, um, on things that, uh, you know, on things that are important and that keeps coming out and opposing again, and sort of regime policies with a very high price again, of course, as I said, relatively little price compared to all Iranians who were killed on the streets for protesting.

[00:33:53] Arash Azizi: But again, she could have just sit in a corner and be Hashemi’s daughter and, um, probably would be the head of Iranian sort [00:34:00] of women’s sports federations, which is the kind of thing that you’ve had in the regime, just like a lot of her brothers are. A lot of her brothers are successful politicians, but she really, you know, went to jail several times and also the taboos that she broke.

[00:34:12] Arash Azizi: She would go and sit down, um, with her Baha’i cellmate, um, uh, you know, in her house under a picture of what it turned out to be a picture of a Baha’i religious leader and then sort of try to normalize it and just say, you know, she has this beautiful quote that I have in the book where she says, we are not animals.

[00:34:28] Arash Azizi: We’re people. So of course, you know, you know, why would you make a big fuss about me sitting down next to my former summit? So I think these are precisely, look, um, what kind of political background you have is not an automatic predictor of, of what kind of politics you have. And I think examples like this shows in the Iranian parliaments, inside the Iranian political system, there have been tons of people who’ve done great work, um, and I think we should acknowledge them for that.

[00:34:54] Arash Azizi: Yes, we should recognize their limits. Um, but this silly, uh, [00:35:00] division that says as anybody who works in Iran in any way is kind of a dupe. It’s very wrong. It was also wrong when they did it in 79 to people who were doing great work inside, um, Islamic Republic, sorry, inside the Shah’s regime. Um, you know, uh, I think it was wrong in 1979 generation feminists.

[00:35:16] Arash Azizi: A lot of them who were anti regime didn’t look at the work of people like Mahnaz Afghani. It was a, cabinet minister and was able to accomplish great things. So we shouldn’t repeat the same mistakes. And another example I’ll give is on South Africa. You know, inside the apartheid regime in South Africa, there were people who were doing great kind of work within limits.

[00:35:32] Arash Azizi: There were white citizens of South Africa, black citizens of South Africa, who, of course, worked under terribly different conditions. But, you know, uh, you cannot forget, um, good work that is being done. Um, uh, you know, just because it’s not as radical as you want it to be, let alone the fact that sometimes this work is actually someone like Faizeh is as sort of radical as you could be in many ways.

[00:35:53] Arash Azizi: Um, and I think it’s, uh, it’s a very, it’s a very big shame if we write, write her off or write other [00:36:00] people off because we don’t like their last name. We don’t like the way they wear their hijab or we don’t like their political past.

[00:36:06] Nahid Siamdoust: I mean, this was all sort of these kinds of reactions were astounding, especially when Nagis Mohammadi won her Nobel Peace Prize, where, you know, there was a swath of Iranian expatriates just, uh, you know, putting on their social media that, uh, you know, Basically, uh, mourning the fact that somebody like her who had collaborated with the reformists, et cetera, should be winning the prize when she has indeed paid, you know, the highest price of spending her life in prison without, you know, seeing her children grow basically for, for these rights.

[00:36:38] Nahid Siamdoust: So, um, these are, these are really, um, You know, very difficult and troubling trends that I hope Iranians as a whole are able to, to view with more, um, uh, what would be discernment, right? That’s right. Yeah. The kinds of narratives that are pushed on, on these media. And I think, and then, you know, [00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Arash Azizi: can I just say that I think we do have a moment of national division amongst Iranians.

[00:37:03] Arash Azizi: That’s very sad. And. You know, you always want to tell yourself, maybe this is just a bunch of diaspora activists in LA who are being loud. Maybe this is not reflected on the ground. And it’s very hard to know to what degree, you know, is it, it’s the eternal question is the, are the crazies on Twitter or are they reflecting something in society?

[00:37:21] Arash Azizi: And, you know, to what degree are they. Amplified where, and you know, whatever, you know, but I think it’s not hard to see that there is a moment of national division amongst Iranians and we need to overcome it by remembering our shared goals. Um, and also less of sort of this hysteria. Look, I think this is something important to talk about because I think it happens in other movements as well.

[00:37:42] Arash Azizi: Mass hysteria is never a good thing. This sort of let’s find some, you know, let’s find who is the culprit and the culprit ends up being just, you know, a person who, you know, you don’t like because he didn’t do what you want them to do. Um, it’s really dangerous. And unfortunately, many participated in this [00:38:00] around a variety of figures.

[00:38:01] Arash Azizi: Let’s say someone like Asghar Farhadi. I mean, you know, he is a filmmaker. He would win an award. And he wouldn’t, you know, immediately dedicate it to the movement against the regime or something. So people started having this hysteria against someone like Farah Hadi, for example, for no good reason. And unfortunately, this sort of has metastasized to this very ugly political culture now that someone like Nagis Mohammadi, who opposes the regime, who was in prison for a very long time.

[00:38:28] Arash Azizi: becomes fair game, uh, for a bunch of critics. Um, and I really think, and unfortunately people will always say things like, well, a lot of people are killed, we are angry. You know, this is usually a beginning of a terrible argument, right? Um, when you try to say, well, we, because we are beraved, we can do whatever we want.

[00:38:46] Arash Azizi: is exactly what the regime also says whenever it does a lot of terrible things. You cannot sort of shut down your rationality and your brain, uh, because you’re bereaved. Um, and I think we really need to, um, we really need to overcome this sort of [00:39:00] ugly culture of acrimony and, uh, Hostility, uh, amongst Iranians, because if we wanted to have a country together one day, we’re going to have to share it with everybody, including something like 20 million people who voted for conservative candidates in the last elections, let alone someone like Naqis Mohammadi, who opposes the regime as a whole, and if we want to share this country, we We need to overcome, uh, these divisions.

[00:39:24] Nahid Siamdoust: It’s really astounding when you think about, you know, what all the, the, the range of people that are opposed basically leaves a very, very small sliver of, um, of people who would be acceptable to certain people and to these narratives that are driven, um, by God knows, you know, what forces on social media and other forms of media.

[00:39:45] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, and unfortunately, as you said, are having a hold, not just on Iranians abroad, but also inside of Iran. I want to move on to your. you know, uh, to your, to your chapter about labor movement and where you highlight the role of half tap pit. And of course, in the course of woman life freedom, [00:40:00] um, there was a big question about would the labor movement end up having the kind of impact, the kind of, um, you know, crucial impact on the success of the revolution, like the oil industry did, or the oil workers did.

[00:40:13] Nahid Siamdoust: During the 1979 revolution, and I would love for you to, to lead us a little bit through this, um, you know, through the, um, substance of this chapter and why you think the trade unions, um, and labor unions ultimately couldn’t play that role. And, um, uh, you know, I want to, I want to read out just briefly.

[00:40:34] Nahid Siamdoust: Sort of from the end of your chapter where you bring Kion Pierre Falek, the nine or ten year old boy who beautifully, um, you know, launched his science experiment with In the Name of the God of Rainbows and how Isma’il Bashi showed up at his, at his, um, grave and, um, said, Dear Kian, this is how your chapter ends, quote, [00:41:00] um, we are here to speak of our shame.

[00:41:01] Nahid Siamdoust: It was us who should have been killed on the streets so that you could reach all your dreams, but it wasn’t to be. We promise to continue the struggle to build a world and a future for your friends filled with joy and freedom. This is where, you know, the labor activists really came together with the martyrs, the most prominent, uh, visually and, uh, in terms of their stories, prominent mark martyrs of the woman life freedom movement, uh, of whom Kion was certainly one.

[00:41:27] Nahid Siamdoust: And can you just speak to the role of the, of the trade unions and the labor movement?

[00:41:32] Arash Azizi: Yeah. The trade union movement in Iran, um, like in many other chapters of this book, you know, you will see a common trend in which, um, things in the late 1990s, uh, late, late 1990s, there is a bit of a more. Uh, you know, there’s more openness in Iranian society for activity, right?

[00:41:48] Arash Azizi: Following the election of Khatam in 1997. Things, of course, during the eighties, tens of thousands of political prisoners are executed. Um, you know, things are really repressed. And in the nineties, uh, this sort of more or less [00:42:00] continues. But when you start to have a bit more freedom, you have a growth of all sorts of different, uh, movements and trade unions as well.

[00:42:07] Arash Azizi: sort of found the moment that they’re refounded. Um, and like most places in the world, they’re sort of socialist, Marxist, this kind of activist, um, as well as good old trade unionists without necessarily this kind of, uh, I would say generally leftist politics, but perhaps not sort of in this or that ideology that helped refound a variety of trade unions.

[00:42:26] Arash Azizi: Um, and, you know, I was a young leftist in Iran, uh, myself in those years where I, Um, you know, like many a young leftist, I very enthusiastically took part in a variety of, um, these kinds of activities with this variety of workers activists. Um, and these organizations were very impressive. Um, the organize, the bus workers union that I, Tehran bus workers union that I write about in the book is one that really was able to shut down Tehran a couple of times and really show the power of labor.

[00:42:53] Arash Azizi: Um, Haftapay, it’s this important, um, agribusiness. cultural agribusiness in Southwestern Iran of [00:43:00] sugarcane workers, uh, which is pretty important because, you know, it’s sort of an important industry in Iran. Um, and, and they’re, they really, they, they have some important economic role, but it’s still, they’re relatively limited, but they also more importantly have the rise of this labor figure, someone like Ismail Bakhshi.

[00:43:15] Arash Azizi: It’s very important that we have rise of people like Mansour Hossanloo, um, like, um, Ismail Bakhshi, like Reza Madadi, who becomes sort of well known as labor leaders, um, and some people like Ismail Bakhshi going on the grave of Kian Pir Falak, this young boy who was killed, really shows, uh, the potential of the rise of labor leaders.

[00:43:34] Arash Azizi: But why doesn’t it, um, You know, why, and there are attempts to organize general strikes in December. There was an attempt to organize a three day general strike. Um, so why is it that sort of, um, it doesn’t go beyond that? I think there’s a couple of factors. One is that it’s still a relatively a small number of, um, there’s a sort of relatively a small number of labor leaders who can, who can rise up and sort of.

[00:43:59] Arash Azizi: find this [00:44:00] political role because, um, this is very difficult. It, it comes with a lot of repression. Um, but also because the society as a whole, um, it’s, it’s sort of imbued with what I would call middle class prejudices about trade unions. I think a lot of Iranians didn’t understand how does worker activism work.

[00:44:17] Arash Azizi: For example, you know, even the very word strike, general strike, um, you know, I realized, I already realized in 2009 and with some amusement, of course, because when you sort of. Grow up as a leftist, which I did. You know, these words are like your ABC. Um, but I realized that people actually didn’t know what a strike meant.

[00:44:35] Arash Azizi: Uh, and they were like, well, what do they do? They just don’t go to work and they, you know, why they’re not coming to the street to protest? Uh, they wouldn’t understand that actually not going to work is much more important, 10 times more important than showing up to a street protest. Because if you don’t go to work, you can shut down an economy.

[00:44:50] Arash Azizi: Uh, of course it’s not as impressive. You don’t get shot and get killed necessarily always. So, uh, you know, it’s, it’s not as politically bold perhaps [00:45:00] by the first glance, but ultimately it can be much more politically powerful because it’s, it’s when you shut things down. And in 2009, a smart commentators, even those who are sort of a liberal, a smart commentators understood if even, you know, no matter if you heard, uh, those in the U S or others, they understood that what was really lacking was the labor efforts and that you didn’t have a shutting down of the economy in 2009, much bigger protests than 2022.

[00:45:26] Arash Azizi: Um, but, uh, you didn’t have the shutting down of, of, of, of the economy. And the same thing was visible here. I think people didn’t necessarily understand the role of labor. Um, they didn’t understand the kind of, um, uh, action that, uh, labor leaders can do. So in, in what is sort of a tragic two sided way, um, labor leaders couldn’t rise up to these positions of leadership and because they sort of weren’t really given this space.

[00:45:51] Arash Azizi: And also they limit as to how much they could grow. I mean, you had a strike, but the strike effectively, uh, and, and let me explain what I mean that you didn’t [00:46:00] understand. For example, they also didn’t understand that, well, if you want laborers to come, you need to put laborer demands at the center of your politics.

[00:46:06] Arash Azizi: Um, you need to really make this a, um, You know, marry the movement to sort of demands that laborers have against privatization. Um, and let’s say the teacher’s movement against, uh, uh, what we call a commodification of education, which is, you know, sounds like a wordy thing, but it’s actually a very common in the political sort of vocabulary in Iran.

[00:46:26] Arash Azizi: It’s very well known because there are struggles that have been going on a long time. So I think ultimately, um, you know, this is related to the. bigger question of, you know, why has the movement gone undefeated? And we have to be honest that it has so far. One of the is one of the reasons is that, um, there wasn’t sufficient attention paid, um, into the kind of tactics that you would need to win against regime and the kind of, uh, leaders that you need to have.

[00:46:52] Arash Azizi: Um, and this, what I would call middle class prejudices against. The working class, um, broadly defined, um, [00:47:00] uh, is it still, uh, you know, it, you know, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s still, it’s still a big problem. I think it’s still a big problem and, uh, one that we need to overcome because you cannot have a successful revolution without bringing about, uh, the participation of the working class, which includes a large majority of the Iranian society.

[00:47:18] Nahid Siamdoust: And of course, for many of the workers, it was also. you know, at the end of the day, um, they needed to be able to feed their families. Iran’s economy is not doing well. And as much as there were, uh, you know, among them very powerful activists, um, I think we also have to acknowledge that this, these are big sacrifices that the workers were making and that ultimately not, you know, some simply could not, right.

[00:47:45] Nahid Siamdoust: Uh, given that Um, yeah,

[00:47:48] Arash Azizi: absolutely. They would lose their job if they didn’t go to work. So, but that’s, that’s when, you know, that’s bad. If you want people to come, you need to get serious after all. When did the oil workers come to join in 1979? You know, they [00:48:00] joined almost in 1979 and the revolution happened in February.

[00:48:02] Arash Azizi: They started joining in like December, November, January. Right. at the very end. Um, and then they were able to bring this final blow on, on, on the Shah’s regime. Um, so you cannot have, you cannot expect workers to sort of participate, um, uh, so easily. And also the kind of, the other important thing is the kind of politics that you, you want to have, as I said, um, and the kind of, um, This is as a whole, the movement has started to understand this point at some point, right?

[00:48:31] Arash Azizi: There was a speaking of the gray, uh, you know, the gray, uh, sort of sectors by which they meant people who are not sure the so called gray sector is not like they love the Islamic Republic. It’s just that they were not sure, are they ready to give up their life? And I think this is really funny. Um, and I say, I use funny the Maccabre way here when, you know, someone in like Oregon or like.

[00:48:53] Arash Azizi: You know, Montana would say things like, Oh, well, why wouldn’t they come out? Right. Um, because they have a [00:49:00] life, uh, you know, you, these people who said this would probably not lose one hour of their own jobs, uh, for any, anything. Um, you know, you cannot just expect people to, uh, give up their life, um, uh, you know, thinking that they will have a guaranteed, uh, result at the end.

[00:49:15] Arash Azizi: Um, and I think, uh, you know, I think these are serious weaknesses. They, you never had the political leadership of this movement to the degree that it could form a political leadership abroad, never reached the sort of serious enough of an effort so that people would join it. Had it done that, you would have had much more, uh, participation inside Iran as well.

[00:49:36] Nahid Siamdoust: Uh, yeah, you know, as, as important as this, uh, conversation is given that the labor movement and, you know, the working classes were such a backbone to the two previous mass uprisings prior to the woman life freedom movement. Um, you know, I think all the points that you make really, uh, you know, need. need attention.

[00:49:56] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, I’m, I’m, I’m gonna move on to, uh, I [00:50:00] feel like we could have a long discussion on this subject, but I’m going to move on to your next chapters because I’m mindful of time. And I want to make sure that, you know, we cover some of the other issues that you raised throughout your wonderful book. Um, some of which I feel like, you know, I’m going to ask you about the structure of your book, but I feel like.

[00:50:16] Nahid Siamdoust: Yeah. You know, it’s almost a bit of reflection, not, not entirely, but a bit of reflection of, um, Shervin Hajiboor’s song, Baro’e, right? Yeah, absolutely. The points that Iranians had tweeted about find, find reflection, certainly in some form in the organization of your book. Why don’t I just ask you about it right now, since I’ve already made this comment and then move on.

[00:50:38] Nahid Siamdoust: Tell me about that a little bit. Is that actually what inspired, um, the structure of the book? I mean, I know you mentioned your wife in terms of the structure, but I don’t want to forget Aisha here, but yeah.

[00:50:47] Arash Azizi: No, that’s, that’s actually, it is, it is literally my wife, Plythe Sherman, you know? Um, I mean, I, I taught a lot about how I could do this, right?

[00:50:55] Arash Azizi: And I, you know, I was in Chicago at the time and I was sort of walking with my wife and trying to ask [00:51:00] her and the reasons that my wife is not from Iran. Uh, you know, she’s a brilliant scholar on her own right, but she’s not from Iran. So I, you know, she could have a more outsider perspective as to, you know, what would you, if you wanted to read a book about Iran to learn more about Iran, you know, what would you be interested in?

[00:51:14] Arash Azizi: She sort of mentioned sort of, Oh, you know, I would like to know about the diversity of our struggles. And then I did think of Chervin’s song. Uh, not that I went through the song and particularly picked every line, but actually I think every chapter could be linked to some lining in that song. Um, in that, you know, and I think he was, uh, A beautiful moment, actually, when you remember, because there was sort of a beautiful pluralism in this song, um, because it included, you know, it was based, uh, based on tweets, right?

[00:51:38] Arash Azizi: So it was sort of outsourced based on tweets. Um, it included pluralism because it had a large number of sort of demands that people have, including for Afghan children, right? Um, which is, uh, which was a beautiful, when, when we see some of the ultra nationalism and unfortunately overtook at some point, it’s mindful to remember that actually this movement had.

[00:51:57] Arash Azizi: Um, sort of such beautiful demands or the fact [00:52:00] that, you know, the fact that the environment played such a, such a big role. So it was, it was definitely an, an inspiration song to, to remember that this movement was very pluralistic and very, uh, had a very broad basis also. Um, you know, um, and which really the song, uh, and the kind of wide attention that it had, uh, uh, you know, shows.

[00:52:24] Nahid Siamdoust: Yeah, and you mentioned, uh, environmentalism. You do write in your fourth chapter, this was a green revolution. Of course, the, you know, um, cheetah pirus, the cheetah baby pirus, um, at risk of extinction became a sort of, you know, tragic parable for this movement, I believe, by the time when And then he finally died due to kidney failure.

[00:52:46] Nahid Siamdoust: I think we had reached a low point in this movement and it was a bit of, um, people’s hopes dying. But, um, you know, what ultimately this movement will mean is a different [00:53:00] conversation. And I do love your, your chapter on, on the environmentalist, um, you know, and the kind of, you know, you, you talk about Kove Madani.

[00:53:08] Nahid Siamdoust: And the fact that during the Rouhani government, you know, there was, there was a sliver of a moment when, um, when there were hopes that some of the, you know, brain drain that had left Iran might return and contribute to, you know, the reconstruction or, you know, the, the strengthening of, uh, Iran’s various sectors from the environment to, you know, whatever it is.

[00:53:33] Nahid Siamdoust: And of course, those hopes were dashed and, um, Kaveh Madani ultimately. left the country under, you know, uh, fear of being arrested. Um, once Kavu Seyed Emami and other environmentalists, some of whom are still sitting in prison today, um, were arrested and Kavu Seyed Emami, of course, died in prison under very suspicious, uh, circumstances.

[00:53:56] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, I, I, you know, [00:54:00] to move on to, um, To the, to the chapter in which you highlight the role of, um, I wonder if I should give you a minute to, to comment on, on the role of the environment, especially because I mentioned, you know, these environmentalists, some of whom are still in prison and,

[00:54:18] Arash Azizi: um, Yeah, I can, I can say something briefly if you want.

[00:54:20] Arash Azizi: Yeah. Um, yeah, I would say that, um, you know, I would say there’s one of the most beautiful aspects of this movement was how much Iranians cared for the environment, that it’s being destroyed. Um, I thought the fact that in the environment. Yeah. middle of the movement, people would care for this cheetah. I mean, you know, this, this little animal, and they would, it was almost like treating him like a martyr after revolution or something beautiful.

[00:54:39] Arash Azizi: It really shows kind of the, why do I keep using the word beautiful? Because I think it’s very important when sort of it shows the human dimensions of a movement, um, that can really, um, that can show and. Demonstrate its difference from the regime that it’s fighting by the kind of values that it represents.

[00:54:55] Arash Azizi: Um, that’s the kind of movement we would want. Um, we should make us think when we look at [00:55:00] some of this sort of other behavior that sometimes one sees. And I think it’s also important because it showed environmental activism. I think it’s a model for environmental activists around the world in a way.

[00:55:09] Arash Azizi: Because it showed that it can actually be, um, linked to some sort of a progressive patriotism. In fact, Iranians cared about their lived in environment. They cared about their country and they, they were very, um, you know, there’s activism doesn’t happen without sort of emotions. And so they have this emotive response to the, the Rumia Lake being dried up, the Zion, the river in Isfahan being dried up, of the Iranian Cheetah going extinct.

[00:55:31] Arash Azizi: And I think that’s a very, uh, potentially powerful basis for, um, for an environmental movement. Of course, we need a sort of global approach to fight against climate change, but it’s also good to remember, this is our countries, our lands that are being destroyed. They belong to all of us. Um, and so it’s not a sort of a nature versus human as is sometimes portrayed in some sort of ecological circles is actually a question of humans and their lived in environments.

[00:55:57] Arash Azizi: Um, and I thought, and, and, you know, the brilliant, [00:56:00] um, environmentalists that, that you mentioned, unfortunately, most of whom are still in jail are, um, are just part of a large population, um, in Iranian prisons of people who, uh, pay a very high price because just because they dared to make this country a better place.

[00:56:16] Nahid Siamdoust: Right. And not too long ago, Niloufar Bayani, of course, published, um, revelations of the kind of, um, you know, Um, psychological and, um, and other kinds of torture that she received that has received throughout her ordeal, um, in prison, and she still remains, um, in prison among others, as you mentioned. Um, you know, in a, in a, in a later chapter, you write about the freedom of religion and you highlight the role of Balochistan became very prominent, of course, in this uprising.

[00:56:48] Nahid Siamdoust: Balochistan and Kurdistan in many ways were, um, key to, um, to, to this uprising. And in, in your chapter on, uh, in your chapter on that, you write, [00:57:00] um, Abdul Hamid’s pulpit in Zahedan now became a tribune of the people. Iranians were used to imams spouting out Khamenei’s line in the sermons before Friday prayers.

[00:57:10] Nahid Siamdoust: But in this South excuse me, but in this southeastern corner of Iran, Abdul Hamid’s weekly sermon went directly against the regime. Um, prior to talking about, um, Mulavi Abdul Hamid, you also highlighted the role of, uh, Khudanur Lajeyi, of course, who became very, his dance and his chained, uh, wrists and ankles around the pole became a very iconic sort of, you know, image of this uprising, of the kind of, um, inhumane and, um, really Uh, horrible treatment that, uh, he received and others like him received.

[00:57:47] Nahid Siamdoust: Can you talk a little bit about the role of Baluchistan and, um, and Molavi Abdulhamid? He, he really makes a figure in this book.

[00:57:55] Arash Azizi: I think it’s, it’s, I think Molavi Abdulhamid is such a fascinating figure because you [00:58:00] remember that number one, there is politics inside Iran despite everything. And this is a guy, you know, he’s one of the only guys who’s been longer in his position than Khamenei, right?

[00:58:07] Arash Azizi: He has been here as, as the sort of preeminent Sunni politician in Iran. Um, and who holds important religious, um, and political positions inside Iran and is able to become some sort of a national figure for primarily for the Baluch in who is an ethnic minority in Southeastern Iran, but also for Sunnis as a whole, uh, to a degree, of course, the, we have Kurdish Sunni communities and other sort of Sunni communities on, on the Persian Gulf coast.

[00:58:33] Arash Azizi: Um, And, you know, uh, I think, uh, many look up to Maulavi Abdulhamid as some sort of a, as some sort of a figure. Um, and I think, um, you know, the fight against, the fight against, uh, religious oppression, um, and, and ethnic oppression, um, in Iran is important and it’s, it’s definitely an important part of this, uh, part of this movement.

[00:58:55] Arash Azizi: Um, and I think someone like, uh, Maulavi Abdulhamid showed, You [00:59:00] know, what he showed people was that number one, you could be someone who has held, as I said, established positions inside the country, but you can also add the, add an important point. You can, um, really use, uh, these positions, um, to rise up against the regime and it’s not easy to touch him because, because they know he is.

[00:59:17] Arash Azizi: represents an important segment of the Iranian, um, society, even though there were many campaigns against him, right, but they were not able to push him aside. And he’s also a religious figure, of course, he’s a religious Imam, but he showed that you can have, you can have, indeed, a religious leadership. Um, and there are Shia clerics who could play a similar role.

[00:59:34] Arash Azizi: There are other sort of religious leaders who could play a similar role, who can, you know, who can really give voice, um, and give voice to the people. And so I think, you know, I listened, I spent hours listening to different sermons on him in order to, uh, write this book. And a lot of these sermons are what you would expect from a sermon.

[00:59:50] Arash Azizi: There is a story about the prophet Muhammad. Um, there, you know, stories about, you know, like a usual religious sermon, but he was able to really use his pulpit, as I said, for the people in this [01:00:00] key moment. Um, and, uh, I think it’s important to treasure, um, uh, and, you know, like. He had, let’s not forget it, endorsed Raisi, right, in the, in the elections.

[01:00:10] Arash Azizi: He had said terrible things in praise of Taliban at some point, right? So people don’t come with a clean, this is, I mean, any, any historian will tell you this, right? That people don’t come with a clean, um, track record, right? They always have a. So of contradictions in their history, um, but at a key moment, um, it’s, it’s important what they come to represent.

[01:00:30] Arash Azizi: He came to represent, um, the fight of, of the Baluchi for, um, uh, for their rights. And also he become an important sort of integrative figure because he of course was that, you know, at the same time he, he asserted baluchi as Iranian citizens. Um, and mm-hmm, , uh, you know, the government will always try to paint every movement as secessionist.

[01:00:53] Arash Azizi: This would lead to distrust amongst, uh, a variety of Iranians against one another. And people like Abdul, [01:01:00] uh, people like Moulavi Abdul Hamid can be a great, uh, antidote to this because he asserted his leadership, um, over the Baluch and he asserted their rights. At the same time, he asserted, uh, these rights as Iranian citizens and, and sort of helped unity of the country.

[01:01:15] Arash Azizi: Which is what we will need for any successful movement in Iran, just by the nature of our country being so big and including different parts.

[01:01:24] Nahid Siamdoust: Yeah. Uh, in your last chapter, Sarina’s revolution, the fight for a normal life, you highlight, I think one of the most, um, um, searing sort of, uh, you know, just one of these.

[01:01:39] Nahid Siamdoust: young people who, who was killed, who will just never leave your mind, right? If you, because she was a vlogger, um, a video blogger and because she had so much content online and because there was this video released, uh, you know, became, there was this video that went viral of her really talking about her or, you know, her day to day life.

[01:01:56] Nahid Siamdoust: And, um, and in one of them, which you, you know, quite a [01:02:00] quote, quite a lot from, uh, where she talks about what it means to be a 16 year old in Iran and what does it mean to have Azadi and where does it get You know, how does it feel to be a 16 year old girl in Iran? Um, and it ends with, uh, you know, a photo of her with a black ribbon across the corner, indicating that she’s now been, you know, killed and she’s dead.

[01:02:20] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, you know, you will not forget Serena, if you’ve seen this video of this budding, incredible, you know, young human being who has her entire life in front of her, um, and is yet cut short. And your last chapter is dedicated to her. You do mention some of these other very iconic sort of people and personas of this uprising, including Nikos Sarkanemi.

[01:02:44] Nahid Siamdoust: And you’ve, uh, but it’s mostly about Sarina. And in it, you write, you know, in this sense, Iran’s new revolutionaries resemble, about their plight, resemble a return to the older tradition of Iranian quest for democracy and civil rights embodied in the [01:03:00] Persian constitutional revolution of 1906.

[01:03:02] Nahid Siamdoust: Paradoxically, however, the Iranian quest for normality and democracy appears quite revolutionary in 2022. And I think that really goes to the crux of the matter of this movement, right? And why, uh, certain images, um, for example, the image of, uh, you know, Donia Arad and her friend having breakfast in a downtown sort of Southern Tehran.

[01:03:24] Nahid Siamdoust: eatery became so prominent when it was such an ordinary photo, but it just presented two women eating in a casual dinery without their headscarves on. And can you speak to, to this chapter and what you highlight as, you know, ultimately this quest for normality?

[01:03:42] Arash Azizi: The reason I wrote the last chapter, uh, about Sareena, um, was that, you know, as when we write about revolutions, when we think about revolutions, it’s, it’s, we do something, I mean, this is sort of a problem for historians, if you will.

[01:03:55] Arash Azizi: Usually we define a revolution by its ideologues, right? We look at the text. of [01:04:00] this, uh, leaders. We try to sort of understand the Iranian revolution by reading Shariati Khomeini, um, you know, Russian revolution by reading Lenin or Trotsky or Polokhinov for other, Luxembourg for German revolution, others.

[01:04:12] Arash Azizi: But it’s not these leaders or these ideologues who make revolutions, right? It’s the ordinary people. They are the ones who risk in their life. They are the ones who are doing the, the, the dying. Um, and why do they do that? It’s always a sort of a mystery to historians. Um, they can of course try to look for Um, clues here and there.

[01:04:31] Arash Azizi: Um, and sometimes you find a rich depository of someone like Serena. Um, and this rich depository was her online writings and videos. Um, I listened to every single video that she had. I went through every, you know, she had a few telegram channels. I sort of went through all of them. And, you know, it was, it’s still the most sort of painful chapter of the book to write.

[01:04:52] Arash Azizi: And painful chapter to read even, um, in, in reviews. I sometimes couldn’t even read it in the review. Because the way she, you know, [01:05:00] she reminded me so much of my own cousins that are of her age. Um, and their quest for the world, which really didn’t fit. You know, what makes you angry is that you would, you would think that, you know, everybody would have the lives of women in the Middle East are always subject of this or that politics on, on all sides, right?

[01:05:18] Arash Azizi: Some people want to, you know, sort of use people of pictures of women in miniskirts in the sixties to push a certain agenda. Some people. do the opposite, unfortunately. And say, Oh no, actually this doesn’t represent anyone. Um, this was like 5 percent of society, whatever. No, you know, none of which really makes sense.

[01:05:36] Arash Azizi: Whereas for those of us who are from that society, it was just refreshing how ordinary and how commonplace this was. Um, a young teenager who loved Albert Camus and, um, wanted to have sort of you know, watched Casa de Papel and wanted to do certain things, and she had friends who wore different kinds of hijab, um, and, you know, she [01:06:00] did not come, you know, from this segregated section of society where everyone is westernized or these kind of terms that are usually used, right?

[01:06:07] Arash Azizi: She was an ordinary Iranian, uh, like my cousins, like many others. And, and I’m not saying that everyone would have picked everything that she did. Obviously, right. We were all different. Um, but she was very refreshingly ordinary. And, um, uh, you know, by which I mean, of course she was extraordinary in many ways.

[01:06:24] Arash Azizi: There’s, you know, there’s so much talent in, in, in a lot of what she says. Um, um, and there’s so much, uh, uh, sort of interesting thinking to remember for, for a 17 year old. Um, but I think this was. gave us a mirror, really, as to the kind of people who did the fighting and dying, um, in this revolution for what, uh, you know, as you said yourself, uh, by pointing out to Dhoni and Rahat, for what they consider to be a normal life.

[01:06:50] Arash Azizi: Um, and in many ways, it is a normal life of, of trying to, um, have a life free of repression, um, where they can pursue their dreams, um, the way they [01:07:00] want. Um, which would require, of course, You know, at the higher level, it would require democracy, but at even lower levels, it would require sort of basic prosperity and, and getting rid of this, uh, repressive regime.

[01:07:11] Arash Azizi: So, um, I think the reason Sarina touched so many of our hearts, um, was that she was able to really encapsulate, um, uh, who, uh, the Iranians of her generations are and how refreshingly they have not given up. Um, you know, they, they keep going on in this, um, unending, inspiring, um, march of life that is hard to imagine sometimes.

[01:07:37] Arash Azizi: Like you would think they would give up at some point. You would think they would, um, conform. Um, but they don’t. Generation after generation, you don’t, you know, I’m not old enough. Um, you know, Serena, uh, uh, could have almost been my daughter. I would say not quite, but almost. Right. Um, so, uh, this is like a couple of generations after me.

[01:07:58] Arash Azizi: Um, and, [01:08:00] uh, you know, in our generation, we thought we were very brave because we did certain things, but these people. This generation has done much more, um, and I think that’s the wellspring of, of this movement. Um, and I hope I was able to capture some of it, um, in, in writing about her. For

[01:08:16] Nahid Siamdoust: sure. For sure.

[01:08:17] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, you know, in your epilogue, you say it will be a pitched in terms of, you know, of course, as some, as you know, as people who comment on Iran were often asked, what, where do you think this is going? What is the future of Iran? And so you try to address that in your epilogue and you say, It will be a pitched battle between two poles, one consisting of, you know, in terms of who will succeed Khamenei and what might come after him.

[01:08:41] Nahid Siamdoust: You say it will be a pitched battle between two poles, one consisting of the IRGC, the Iranian Islamic Republic Revolutionary Guard, the ambitious men who control the guns and the butter, the other consisting of the men and women at the heart of this book, whose resources are bravery and determination.

[01:08:59] Nahid Siamdoust: So [01:09:00] who do you put your bet on?

[01:09:02] Arash Azizi: Um, this is a very difficult question because of course my heart is with the ordinary men and women in this book of the civil societies and, um, and of course the battle won’t, won’t be over in a day. Um, this battle would in a way be ongoing no matter what happens at each political juncture and, um, I’ll continue to support, uh, this inspiring men and women that this book is about.

[01:09:27] Arash Azizi: Um, but unfortunately, if one has to be also honest in the immediate political future, they’ll have a lot of trouble overcoming the guards and others. Um, that is because, um, the lack of political organization, um, and the lack of political unity. And I hope that all of us. To the small roles that we can play, we are able to overcome, um, this difficulty.

[01:09:48] Arash Azizi: We are able to put aside these pernicious ideas about horizontality, about changing the world via Twitter, uh, about, um, you don’t need leaders. It’s the age of leaders are over. We don’t [01:10:00] need ideologies, things like that. And we’re able to actually put together organizations and political coalitions that, and we’re able to reach across.

[01:10:08] Arash Azizi: To each other across their differences, because that’s also very important. Um, after all, uh, the people in this book, they’re not, have not always been united with each other either. Um, and you know, they would need to do that, um, in serious phase in order to be able to, uh, change Iran. So I would say the battle will be long.

[01:10:26] Arash Azizi: Um, uh, and things will be pretty hard at sort of the next political. juncture, which I think will come with the Fafhameneh. It can also come before, but you know, that that’s the, that’s the one place. Um, but we would, uh, but we would need to, um, we would need to continue, uh, continue the struggle, uh, and, and, and never give up.

[01:10:46] Arash Azizi: Um, but we’d also realize, we have to realize that. Moral victories go so far. You can’t, if you need to win in politics, you need to win and you need to muster force to win. Um, you know, Martin Luther King, um, the civil rights movement here didn’t [01:11:00] abolish, um, Jim Crow laws by just being morally superior and they did it by a, Being able to master the force together and organize and same with other movements that have won and unfortunately many movements around the world have not, uh, won, um, and we need to learn that being praised, uh, you know, on the CNN or being praised as sort of morally superior, uh, is, does not give you winning, um, organization.

[01:11:25] Arash Azizi: Organization. And mustering up force, as I said, uh, is, is, is what makes you win. And we, we need to be able to do that. Um, and it would be an incredibly difficult thing to do because of the odds that we face and because of the powerful interest that, that, that we would oppose. But, uh, that’s, that’s what is needed.

[01:11:44] Arash Azizi: Um, if you want to see change in our country.

[01:11:49] Nahid Siamdoust: Right. Thank you so much Arash, Arash Azizi for this conversation. Before I, before we say goodbye, uh, I just want to, uh, come back to a promise I made at the beginning of the podcast, which is to [01:12:00] ask you for all those listeners who are also interested in this aspect about your practice.

[01:12:04] Nahid Siamdoust: Um, you know, it’s not hard to see that you’re very productive. You’ve had, you know, two books in the span of the last two years, you’ve written, finished your dissertation, gotten your doctorate. What’s your practice? What do you, how do you, How do you sit down to write? Um, what are some, I don’t know, tips you have for others who are listening and who are like, yeah, that’s, that’s awesome.

[01:12:24] Nahid Siamdoust: I want to know how he’s doing this.

[01:12:26] Arash Azizi: Well, I certainly don’t recommend doing your, uh, dissertation in a book at the same time. You know, that’s, uh, um, you know, I don’t recommend doing that, but, but other than that, um, you know, writing is a very fascinating practice. Um, it’s definitely not enjoyable for me. Um, as in when I have to write, you know, I, You know, I don’t enjoy the process as in the way that I enjoy, you know, a cocktail or sitting somewhere or doing something.

[01:12:52] Arash Azizi: It’s a, it’s a very difficult because it’s sort of unnatural. You see, when we were talking to each other, you know, we go back and forth on our words. Um, you know, we, we, we, [01:13:00] we couldn’t just write this right. Um, uh, writing requires you to sort of, I mean, I think it requires sort of, um, a style, uh, it, it requires to really.

[01:13:11] Arash Azizi: Uh, put things, um, uh, put things in a style that would be, uh, you know, that would be compelling. Um, and that would also remembering that the person who is reading this might know Iran very well, might not know nothing about Iran. And you need to sort of write in a way that would be, uh, readable to both of them.

[01:13:28] Arash Azizi: Um, although I always err on the side of them not knowing anything about Iran because, uh, you know, I hope that the book will be a window to Iran for, for new readers. I would say though, the, the kind of, um, One advice that I really try to, uh, use usually, um, I mean, I, I guess, particularly for academics, which is why VR is important to remember, um, is one that, uh, Patricia Cronin, a well known Middle East historian is, who has passed away now, unfortunately, is said to have, uh, given before, you know, my publisher told me this, is that, you know, she [01:14:00] would always say when she writes, she used to be an editor of this series about, uh, different biographies of makers of the Muslim world.

[01:14:06] Arash Azizi: Um, and she would say that, you know, she writes as if she’s having a She would recommend to people to write as if they’re having a long train ride with someone. And they try to sort of, in some sort of educated way, speak to them and tell them about a topic. And, and that’s what I, that’s what I sort of try to do as in, you know, try to not to sort of dumb it down in any ways.

[01:14:26] Arash Azizi: But to try to imagine it as some sort of a conversation, um, with a reader as you sort of take them through. And I think we do that all the time, um, you know, when we are discussing about something, when we’re telling each other about a story, we try to make it interesting and we try to, uh, bring the reader.

[01:14:41] Arash Azizi: So. That’s, that’s what I try to do. It’s always a struggle because the, um, you know, pushing this too much make, would make it sort of a book. I don’t like when people just get rid of all names and make it sort of a generic book. Um, and certainly my first book has even more names in it, all these generals and different political parties and all that.

[01:14:58] Arash Azizi: And I guess it was [01:15:00] always limited audience, um, somewhat, but, um, I guess the attempt is to be able to tell a story, remain faithful to its main elements, um, but able to say it in a way that, uh, you know, you can, uh, you can connect to a reader. I think this is particularly important for, for academics. If you, because we do long research about a topic, um, and we sort of have the findings of our research, but if we want to get them across to, uh, to a broader audience, um, um, you know, this is the way to do it.

[01:15:28] Arash Azizi: I would also say that there’s a great tradition of literate cultures, um, Which unfortunately, sometimes it’s disappearing, frankly, in the world of images and sounds in which, you know, in which you learn to be curious about the world, um, and also connect to this kind of prose that is not written, as I said, in a dumbed down version, but, uh, but also not in accessible way that someone who is literate and, and interested to learn will be able to connect with it.

[01:15:55] Arash Azizi: But, um. It’s an immense pleasure to do this for, um, [01:16:00] voices of people that I cared so much about, men and women of Iran. And if I’ve done, you know, 5 percent and 10 percent of capturing the kind of, uh, immense human energy and life force that they’ve shown, um, I would be very happy.

[01:16:17] Nahid Siamdoust: And I believe you have.

[01:16:18] Nahid Siamdoust: And, um, it’s a wonderful book, Arash John. Thank you. Thank you for this conversation, Arash Azizi, with his book, which will be published in January 2024, What Iranians Want, Women, Life, Freedom. Thank you so much for being on this podcast.

[01:16:34] Arash Azizi: Thank you so much.

[01:16:38] Nahid Siamdoust: You are listening to an episode of Women, Life, Freedom, all in on Iran, broadcast to you from the University of Texas at Austin.

[01:16:44] Nahid Siamdoust: I’m your host, Nahid Siamdoust. Until next time, Shinjian Azadi,

[01:16:50] Nahid Siamdoust: Zan, Zendegi, Azadi.