[transcript autogenerated, please contact vjohsu@austin.utexas.edu if you’re looking for something specific]

[00:00:00]

Jo: And I’m Jo Hsu. Your other host.

Constance: And so today we have, two special guests, but before we get into our introductions guest, I do want to say that there are spoilers. So if you have not seen Amazon primes then you should just stop. Now. There are lots of spoilers, but we were so excited to unpack show that we had to have a couple of our other, friends on.

So, um, before we get into the show, I’m going to introduce one of our guests. He is a good friend from graduate school. Dr. is an assistant professor of English at Georgia state university perimeter college, Adolf, a St. Louis native and university of Missouri. Columbia alum specializes in hip hop, fatherhood narratives college to career strategies.

He is [00:01:00] a proud father of four. Bad ass kids. No, I’m just joking. They’re there. They’re cool. Wonderful young people and free. And two of them are friends with my son who is also a wonderful young person but anyway, he, uh, his lead blogger of the YouTube show, dads cipher, a hip hop guide to father.

Jo: And I’m going to introduce our other guests, Nikita Reed, who is the founder and executive director of Arkansas. So media and a teaching assistant professor at the university of Arkansas school of journalism and strategic media. Her field of study is digital media in which she specializes in diversity in media and digital content strategy.

She also owns and . Operates a small digital marketing boutique called branded by Nikki serving small businesses and nonprofits in the tri-state area. She is also one of the handful of people for which I deeply regretted moving from Arkansas. , but we are very, very happy to have you both on today.

Constance: Yes. Thank you so much for, for joining us and gracing us [00:02:00] with your time. We did have a little bit of like how many academics does it take to figure out a podcast? Right? That’s that’s really, some issues, but, per our outline I am charged with giving a brief synopsis.

And so one of the things I wanted to do just quickly is give the, I MDB summary because I feel like it’s very misleading and quite insufficient, according to IMD B. Three women strive to find their place at an elite Northeastern university. When anonymous, racist attacks, target a black freshmen who insists she is being haunted by ghosts.

woman must determine where the real menace lies. And so to me, the biggest thing about this is not even that that summary is misleading is just very ambiguous. And there are some really ambiguous points in the movie don’t get me wrong, but there’s a lot that’s, head-on, it feels like very visceral, very real life.

It makes me feel claustrophobic sometimes watching it. It’s like, oh my God, this is my life. um, to be [00:03:00] clear, right, the character that Regina hall plays and Jo is going to break down the characters a little bit more. So I’m not gonna go too much into that, but she is.

First unquote master, who’s basically like a head of house for a residential, slash academic space.

So like some universities have a housing communities essentially. And so this particular house is, has historically been very white. one of the things that we will learn in terms of her being the first black woman to become a master at this house that, in the process of thinking about the other, diverse faculty are getting tenured, we know that as a black woman, she had to work twice as hard get there, the recognition that she has gotten.

and I tell you this, I thought it was like, oh my gosh, we got to talk about this now. And that’s how I felt like when we first watched it like two weeks ago, Having just left the faculty women of color conference, where sat in a session called you are not the maid. Right. And there is a maid in this film.

Right. And it talked about black women’s invisible [00:04:00] labor. feels even more timely today than it did. Um, Cause I literally just got back from that conference last night. So anyway, a college freshman, dies at the hands of, with debatable.

Cause we’ll talk about that. Right. And um, we don’t know with, we shoot indict white racism, systemic. We don’t know if it’s specific. We don’t know if it’s all of those things. Um, this is a lot going on. I will say, just in the way of summary, you are H like a horror movie, gore bloody type of thing, you know, it’s, it’s not that right.

It is more of a psychological thriller, of you’ve ever seen, like when, uh, when a stranger calls from like the seventies, not the newer update, that’s not that good, but the one from like. 79 80. it’s more like that meets get out. So that is how I would describe it. So a lot of psychological terror little blood and guts

so that’s my very long brief summary.

Jo: I need to clarify about that summary. The summary begins three women as in the summary is [00:05:00] race evasive. Despite that being the center of, of the film. Okay. Just, just, just being clear,

just wondering.

Constance: want, I didn’t want it because I felt like our subsequent conversations would peel that back and illuminate that. So I wasn’t going to say it cause I figured in your character, you might say it, but other than me saying, like she’s the first black woman. Yeah. But that summary. That’s why I’m like, this is a little bit, yeah, it’s leaving a lot out.

Jo: Yeah, it just didn’t. I didn’t, I had never read the summary and it just was the first glaring thing I’m supposed to introduce the characters. I’ll just introduce the main three , whom the film revolves around. , so there’s Gail Bishop. Who’s played by Regina hall. Who’s an associate professor, the first black master of Ann caster, which is our metaphorical, to something Harvard, Yale, Amherst, that sort of general, small, very wealthy liberal arts school.

We have Jasmine Moore. Who’s a new freshmen. who’s trying to navigate this predominantly white [00:06:00] institution. I think the movie says she’s of eight, , black students on campus or something like that, maybe in the college. And then there’s live Beckman. Who’s an assistant professor who is preparing to come up for tenure.

, and her particular racial positioning and background, I guess, is something that , we’ll talk about, uh, within this conversation.

Constance: Yeah, boy, will we? Yeah. I mean, there are some other characters, but yeah, I think those are, everyone else has kind of ancillary. Those are the, the big folks. Jesse, we’ll start with you. Cause I, I feel like you had, not just that you had last to say, because all of my friends had lots to say, but there was a little bit of point, not a point of contention, but there was an ambiguous spot that I thought we sort of read differently.

And so I’m really curious maybe to start with you, if you could give some of your big takeaways, favorite scenes or, why you enjoyed that? Cause I will say like the ratings are really strange to me? Because on Amazon, of ten when I looked at it, it was [00:07:00] like a 4.9, but know, for people of color in the academy, you know, I loved it.

Most of my friends were like, oh my gosh, this is so close to home. Some of the reviews seemed a little garbage to me, but um, yeah. What were, what is your reaction? And then we’ll kind of.

JL: Well, you know, I have like, uh, four that I want to put on there. The first, just began with the wording sleepwalking, same horror. And intertextuality so the, uh, first, uh, the first part sleepwalking, um, when we talk about the major characters in here, sleepwalking becomes a major theme with, what was her name, Jasmine correct.

Like,

Constance: Yeah, fine.

JL: Jasmine when we talk about sleep walking, I, I believe it Catches all three of the characters because of their status as a women of color who have it into the quote unquote Ivy league is, [00:08:00] uh, a sort of being, um, sleep walking through this entire process. And so it’s in a sense of, uh, how does one that’s successful black and educated function in these spaces where one still feels like they are part of the sunken place.

So you have that element of sleepwalking in there, uh, changing same, um, which the same, a term that I love from a Mary Baraka that talks about that. Basically when we look at music or African folklore in this particular case it may change in form is still addressing. The same issues that take place with race.

And so, so what we have in the film is this sort of, sort of Gothic folklore that begins like comma Salem, witch trials, so to speak. [00:09:00] it’s, uh, like telling the story of this, uh, black woman who was obviously, maybe from the fifties to sixties in Ann caster. And she, basically kills herself at 3 33 and you know, which is the, I love the fact that they used the numbers, which is supposed to be transformation college.

And the number three represents transformation was supposed to be that for these people. But yet there is no transformation. It’s just death. you have the change and saying, then I want to. Uh, Hora. Well, we talk about horror and the sense, um, this is the big criticism for the fan because, uh, critics were saying is basically diluted.

It’s not hard in there. I believe that it was done intentionally because the horrors that people of color experience the real world, for the most part, you’re outside of that culture, you tend [00:10:00] not to see this as horrific. if you at each person like Gale and you look at Jasmine, uh, these whores or real, and it’s devastating it’s traumatizing, but yet to the real world, it just seems like get over it.

You should have made it, you know, again, it’s enforcing the sleepwalking but not least that whole chain, uh, theme of inter-textual. Whereas you have that cell on witch trials, which has those elements of sexism, yet it’s tied in to a racist. Well, so it’s um, you see like Liz and, um, who we don’t know yet if she is black or not, that remains a mystery.

if she is, uh, is she, if she is not a black woman, [00:11:00] then we could kind of look at, then her character is meant to really show even in the space of inter-textual textual, I will be where we look at sexism and racism sometimes, or allyship or allyship is blind to, or purposely blind to, the traumatic, severe, uh, affects of race.

So

Constance: Wow.

JL: my four big

Constance: Wow. That’s deep. Okay. So let’s do kind of like a round Robin style real quick to respond to Jesse’s hot takes in because I got crazy kids rom in the background. I’m on save my tape for last. So I’m on a mute. I don’t know if Nikita or Jo, if either of you want to hop in and respond to JSC.

Niketa: Yeah,

Constance: Jay, my apologies JL eight off my bed. Not my bad. I’m so sorry. Dr. J L eight. Oh.[00:12:00]

Niketa: I think, um, those were some profile points and you hit on a lot of the things that I was thinking about in particular, this thought that you could just get over it, right? Like this, this is what you asked for. You made it. So just get over it, suck it up. And even some level of people not believe in you.

Right. So we got this goal store, Ava. It kind of mirrors real life where it’s just like, you tell folks what’s going on and they brush it off. Like, oh, it’s probably just this or that. You know, that’s what I took from it as well. It’s just like, who’s going to believe you and who can help you in this situation if they’ll even believe that it’s happening or they want to just brush it off as you’re imagining things, you know, so very, very, very deep points there.

I probably won’t have anything happens.

Jo: I didn’t realize we were doing conference presentations. I did not bring notes or [00:13:00] slides.

Niketa: Yeah. But no you’re on point, you know, but that was one of the things that I picked up on was asleep walking. And then, yeah, just this whole idea that, you know, suck it up, you know, you’re there for a reason. And a lot of times you got to make it a lot of times, a lot of us were the first ones, you know, or it’s not as you representing, you represent all of us, so you gotta make it, you know, You know, being weak or, you know, fragile was for white folks, basically, you know, we gotta be strong, we gotta make it, you know,

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. The point about sleep walking was really astute to me. Um, particularly thinking through how Gail is particularly difficult, right? Because

JL: Hmm.

Jo: you understand that in her position, she is bound and restricted in ways that are super frustrating. Uh, but also it looks like complicity, especially to someone [00:14:00] like Jasmine, right.

Who’s looking to her as somebody who might be able to protect her. The, the other thing that struck me, I just, I need to ask to clarify, there were people who responded to this with criticism that it wasn’t horror.

JL: Correct. Yeah.

Jo: see that is like life imitating art, I guess, right. Where you’ve created the film to highlight exactly how horrific this is, people can see that and still view it as what are you complaining about?

I don’t even know what to do at that point. Right. For me, what’s so brilliant about these recent uses of horror is that we’re using this genre to aluminate exactly how terrifying a lot of these circumstances are that we have to live through every day. And for, so for me, and I’m sure for, for lots of other folks who might . Identify even closer with what’s happening in the film, it was hard to watch sometimes, you know?

Um, and I said this when we talked about the chair, even it just, it [00:15:00] reiterated parts of academic life. . Like it was just so uncomfortable.

Like I’ve been in this room, I’ve been in this situation. need to watch it on my time off. and for people to respond to the cinematic version, the dramatize version of this, and still not be able to see it. That’s my worry, I guess, with genres right? Like that you can dramatize it and then it somehow becomes even more normalized.

Right. It becomes, don’t know. Um, so, so it was a brilliant take, but also it gives me less hope about the future.

Constance: So, this isn’t that maybe this, I don’t think is a direct response to what you said, but I’ll go ahead and give my favorite scenes, this is something we said in a conversation, and I don’t know that you said it now, but it’s also kind of one of my favorite scenes.

So one of the great. Places of ambiguity in the film has to do with [00:16:00] kills Jasmine. And one of our conversations about the film JL. You talked about, um, self harm and her inflicting pain on herself. So there are these great moments where we see her with her. you know, we see a lot of micro aggressions, which are just pervasive throughout the film.

She’s interacting with her roommate. So we know there’s a little bit of tension there over some guy who’s, you know, like all in college and the asshole not worth it, but whatever. When we see her wake up, so the sleep walking and she talked about, but when we see awake from nightmares, she has scratches on her.

She feels that something is following her. She is convinced of that. And towards the end, right? This is the thing that I think is so great. Like where you talk about self harm. I’m like white racism is in the, in the form of. Live or Liz,

JL: Okay.

Constance: Beckman.

Because when Liz puts the cloak on at the end, are led to believe

Jo: think

Constance: Liv. Okay. Yeah. We should just go ahead and say this. Cause we hadn’t said that she’s kind [00:17:00] of like a Rachel Dolezal esque character, right? So she is performing identity.

Jo: we don’t know.

Constance: we don’t know, but we are led to believe because her Mennonite mothers says, like is my daughter, why is she saying she’s black?

But at any rate she gets tenure. And her tenure case was very thin. She was not very productive, because this black girl has died and she politicizes like you’re worried about the wrong thing. Jasmine’s death literally becomes the catalyst for her career advancement.

So the Mennonite mother says. To Regina King’s character. Was he in a hall? I stuck Regina king Lord. I’m horrible with names. All right. Where’s Gina Hall’s character. Yeah. Um, when when she says to Gale she’s evil, or something to that effect, to me made it seem like at least in some type of horror movie.

Implication, right. It is ambiguous, but that she is the person who is literally following Jasmine. We haven’t said this yet, but she’s [00:18:00] inflicting psychological trauma on Jasmine because she gave her, she failed her on an essay that was arguably a shitty essay, probably was.

But most of the essays in that class, we are led to believe like other people wrote them last minute they pass other white students their paper last minute. They weren’t that great. They got a passing grade, she fail. She fails Jasmine. So some degree it seems like live is aligned herself with whiteness while she’s proclaiming her blackness.

And so, I think the source of tension for me, it’s like the, scene where Jasmine, after getting out of the hospital and almost dying like, I know what I have to do. And then, Liz is the last person that. Uh, live. Why am I keep doing that? these letters anyway, she’s the last person she talks to before she goes the dormitory.

And then the next thing we know she has supposedly hung herself. Right. And she’s committed suicide by hanging. [00:19:00] I felt like the strong implication is that, professor Beckman killed this girl in order to get tenure. That’s what I’m saying.

JL: Okay. Okay. So we had a concise compensation, especially about the sound horn and that sort of thing. So just want to, uh, basically jump into fear, my position here first and foremost, view, Jasmine uh, and Gail as two sides of the. So both of them are impacted, and this is goes back to that change in same that I said with, uh, MIRI Baraka uh, both, uh, Dylan with white space.

And what does it mean to be black in this white space? I think for Regina hall, I mean, for Gail now, you got to be doing we’re Gail. I think is kind of from generation, X and we’ve of been taught to [00:20:00] externalize racism. This is something that we just have to keep proving and keep overcoming uh, that’s how we approach it.

But then. I think it’s a generational warfare in a sense Regina king was just like, no matter what, keep fighting, keep going on. Is people who die to be in your position. However, Jasmine is more of generation Z it’s more of. You know, um, if the racism isn’t as external as it may have been in Gail’s time, but it’s more invisible.

So she’s like, because you could tell that in Jasmine language, when she says, like, I’m not like all of those other black kids, I don’t come out from the suburbs. and so racism for her was more internalized. So, cause she used to only one that really have the horror elements of [00:21:00] the creature reaching or the ghost reaching from under her bed to grab her arm.

And all of this in a form of cuts. what I’m thinking is the film is Sam for generations. They are internalizing it and inflicting it on themselves, more of a self harm harm. Like, why am I not deemed worthy enough to do this? And then you have the pressure from Gail. And to be honest with you named Liv as the, the person who led Jasmine to our death, it’s Gail by putting the additional pressure of, you’re not measuring up to the who came before you kind of like the hip hop generation was haunted by the civil rights generation of not doing enough for the cause, but not taking into account that we are experiencing race in a different way.

of change. It’s still racism though.

Constance: man. Let me tell you, bro. [00:22:00] We about to go and actually let me, Let me stop. Let me not be funny. Those are excellent analytical points. I’m not gonna, know, it’s like we can agree to disagree. And I, for sure think that a lot of what you’re saying is true, but I also think some of these things aren’t mutually exclusive.

And we know like Gale walks away at the end, right? Because realizes like, you know, when you’re confronted, with white racism and the reality that you are the made right, that you are there for optics and to clean up their shit, do you do? Like whole time she’s been to your point has been operating under the assumption that we can make this a better place and a more equitable place.

And she realizes that that’s like, that’s bullshit that there’s no way, but. In terms of kind of literally like the culpability in one, I’m gonna lay that all on leave. Cause she was doing the whole, white girl self or whatever she’s got going on there. But also because when Jasmine goes to talk to Gail specifically about the essay.

two things, Gail brings up the fact that there is a student who has a credible dispute, when, um, [00:23:00] Liv’s tenure case is being reviewed, she’s like, well, there is a great dispute. let’s just put it out there for everybody in the . They don’t care about your teaching.

If you don’t publish the book, they don’t care about no student newsfeed. If you have published a well recognized and popular book the

Jo: But you are say a woman of color going through to tenure and your cases about to pass, they might care about your student dispute.

Constance: well that’s okay. That’s a great point. Jo makes an excellent point. Okay. For women of color, you, a precarity that live Jasmine and Gail’s, you know, positionality speaks to, and

Jo: Yeah.

Constance: that. So that other activists, And re and, and, you know, a top tier or whatever this is supposed to be writing in casts.

It’s supposed to be in these elite institutions. primarily concerned about your research productivity, or if you’re in the sciences, your grant funding and the money, they, seemingly are less concerned about students, but in this case, yes, a student [00:24:00] complaint be a stumbling block, but Gail does give a caveat because she feels a little uneasy.

She had to work so hard for tenure. wants to support live as our friend. The reason I say she thinks it’s maybe a credible complaint is because when she looks at essay, she says, well, the writing is good. Like, she kind of, It seems like she thinks it’s a weak argument too,

JL: Awesome.

Constance: doesn’t, she doesn’t say, yeah, you know, you got the grades, you earn me. Sometimes I look at an essay and say, well, I understand why they gave you a grade. She doesn’t say that. She just says, you know, your writing is, So it seems like she’s trying to temper complaints. She’s trying to walk, that middle ground that we all try to walk wherever we’re trying to metaphorically serve two masses.

She’s trying to um, throw her friend under the bus. And say she shouldn’t have gave you this grade, but she’s also not trying to count. You know, like pressure, like, oh, I should’ve had a better girl, you know, she’s, she’s not trying to pull rank I mean, she she’s in a really precarious position, but I do you’re right. She has some culpability. I think she walks away. Cause she knows he has some culpability. sorry. [00:25:00] I took other people’s response. I’m going to mute myself now.

Jo: I want to, I want to hear Nikita’s take.

JL: Yeah.

Niketa: Well, it’s interesting that you say that there are two sides of the, what what’d you say? Two sides of the same coin.

JL: Yeah, both sides of the same.

Niketa: There you go. Well, I was triggered the entire movie because I saw myself in Jasmine and Gail, you know, Gail as being a black woman professor now at a predominantly white institution. But I was Jasmine in grad school where I went to the same institution like Gail.

Right. And I, I felt those microaggressions. And you, you feel the paranoia and am I tripping women? Was that a slight, I am outnumbered here. What do I do? You’re trying to find, uh, people who can relate to you and you don’t know as a young person that they’re trying to walk that fine line, you know? And then they have to think about it as like, I got to keep my job.

I don’t know how hard I [00:26:00] can go. You just seem like they don’t care. They don’t hear me now on the other side, And is is harder. The whole thing was trigon white. Oh, I feel Jasmine. I feel Gail. And this is a terrible movie. It’s not a terrible movie. It’s so no, I totally get that sentiment. Um, but I do get that.

She feels like Jasmine is going to haunt her. I’ve had instances where a student has walked away or they’ve just dropped out. You feel like it’s your fault. And it’s like, what more could I have done? Maybe I should have done this and that. And you think about it keeps you up at night because you were them, you know, so I really felt like Gail and I understood being in a, you understand is you walking the tight rope, you know, and you don’t want to let her down, but you also got to keep your job and you gotta Lyme well with your colleagues, you know?

And you know, having Liz back, what was her name? What was the lady name? The.[00:27:00]

Constance: I don’t put it in the chat so we could get it

JL: It could have been list though. Now that

Constance: easily. I put it in the

chat so we can quit. And so we can quit changing it. Like.

JL: I think Elizabeth,

Constance: Yeah.

JL: you know what? I just want to quickly jump here with that, that self hatred thing with Jasmine, I think we could also look at the confrontation between live and Jasmine a reflection of Jasmine self hatred as well.

And here’s why Jasmine has suffered a lot of indignities and microaggressions from her white roommates and that sort of thing. And she does nothing. I mean, even when they put a noose on her door knob, she says nothing. However, she. Uh, for a first example of herself, uh, her sleep walking is the fact that when she did not complete the assignment, the assignment was to look at race [00:28:00] the Scarlet letter, said she could not find race because she only defined it as black and white.

First of all, that’s an issue. So she did not complete the assignment. Second of all, the moment that she had some grade that she did not like I’m going to turn her in to the highest authorities because she’s treating me like a black kid that not come from the suburbs. I graduated the top of my class.

Constance: Wait,

Niketa: Um,

Constance: I’m going to wait. I’m about to push back. I’m about to push back. I’m about to perspect. Nope. Nope, Nope. Here’s why here’s where I pray that you you’re making, you made some good points, but here’s the thing. She didn’t immediately, she went and met with that professor to try to better understand her her thing.

So it wasn’t like

immediately. Let me write you out.

JL: in her hand, after she was turning, she had the form in hand.

Constance: Well, okay. But Hey, you got to stay ready in case you don’t get, but [00:29:00] the thing, thing, right? It wasn’t so much about, and I agree. Absolutely. Like I said, that was probably a well earned F but other students who had probably equally it’s about equity.

Right. And, and you’re right about her, her asserting her suburb, like her, was top of the class. Yeah. That that’s for sure. It’s spot on. And that’s why I say like a lot of your take on Jasmine. Yes. She she’s been bombarded with microaggressions. She has internalized self here’s.

What we see at the beginning, she’s rocking her almost natural. And then she goes to the PR then her hair is pressed or straightened. So, in many ways the physical change, if we want to read hair and identity politics in that way, I personally think you can rock the perm or pressed hair and straight hair and be down for the cause.

I’m not ascribing that to blackness, but I know people who can read it that way. So if we want to read it symbolically that’s there. So I think you’re right about her trying to be, like, Hey, I’m a middle-class kid from the burbs, blah, blah, blah. Don’t try to treat me [00:30:00] like other black kids.

That’s true. it’s also like, know my rights. Because here’s the thing that happens. I’ve told my son this, right. This is a little bit of a digression, but not for real. you ever get stopped by. Something you did or didn’t do you need to say, Hey, I need to know. I say, you don’t say anything like, you know, you’re right.

So part of it is having the cultural capital to say, you’re not going to be able to treat me the way that you’re trying to treat it. And so it is it’s to some degree, there’s a little bit of her, trying to distance herself from, this inner city, black identities, so trying to reject racial authenticity in that way, that’s true, but I don’t necessarily read it as I’m elite um, on some, I think that it’s, again, this idea of tight rope and between us and liminality, I think is really pervasive.

And I think that’s to, um, Mariama Diablo’s credit that we see like a lot of places where it can [00:31:00] be either or because it’s about this tension.. I mean, I do agree and I’m sorry, I’m on mute. I’m going to stay on me for

real now because.

JL: I’m going to say, this last thing, and then I’m out. Cause I’ll dominate. But here’s the thing, perhaps she should have been from the hood when it came to the, uh, the pizza

Jo: Well,

JL: of thing. And here’s why I’m not going to let 80 folks get away with leaving me on the hook for pizza.

And I’m a broke college student. serious? But she make up for that. that cost her 20 duckets you know how much

Constance: It’s a lot. It’s a lot, but she has been cowed by white racism. Right. You

know,

JL: Nah, I’m getting my hands. Yo, I don’t . Care what it is.

Constance: look, now, look, Here’s the thing though, Jesse. Now this is where I’m. I agree with you, right? If she had read Liz as being don’t think she would have their contest that. So I do [00:32:00] think that, do you think that if she read, I said that backwards, if she had red leaves as white, did I say black, if she had read live as this screen is like the same.

I had read, if she had read live as white and I don’t know I could be wrong. Cause there’s there’s gender. know that women are challenged. We know that people of color, we know that women of color are challenged more often about their authority in the classroom. So it’s possible. But I think white woman is going to get less pushback than a black woman.

So I think she’s reading the racial performance that Liv is giving, you know, and we, we can hash it out

whether or

JL: figured it out. That live is a though

he was white.

Niketa: These babies.

Constance: don’t think I know saying, I’m saying if she, your point though, she doesn’t assert herself when she should. I’m saying she came at her cause she thought she was a black woman.

That’s what I’m saying like that. She thought like, I’m going to get her to change this grade. I don’t think she would have asserted herself against whiteness like that because she went, she didn’t get her money for her pizza. So you should, should’ve got up

Niketa: There’s some ambiguity there though. [00:33:00] I will argue because now I’m trapping back to like check it back to the real world. All of these cases of up racial theft, identity theft and whatever. It’s been a student we know. Right. So, you know, it was a reporter, but think about these other cases that have been like out it, the students are like something ain’t right here.

You know what I mean? I don’t know. That’s how I took it. The students oftentimes, and they’re the ones that see them everyday in and out. They’re picking up on things that just don’t feel right or jive. Right. You’re paying and teaching and I’ve seen them pick it up sooner. They might not have hit it on the nose, but that’s what I gathered from it.

Like I think Jasmine knew she’s just like, well, she’s not all like what we call fully black. I don’t know. That’s how I took it. But I think

Constance: I think we can read it either way. I’m I’m cool.

Niketa: can I throw a curve ball real quick? Cause I want to get Jo’s.

Constance: I know I was about to say west Jol’s take, but go ahead. Throw your career [00:34:00] by.

Niketa: no. So, okay. This might be a sidebar. It’s kinda like in, get out where the Asian character is coming to align to whiteness. Did you pick up on that and do you think that there’s probably actually some degree of invisibility for Asian faculty and student? I don’t know for the student parts, you know, uh, or student the student presence, I should say in predominantly white settings.

Do you see it? I guess, meshing with reality in that, because I don’t know. I just feel like they always want to put them adjacent to white. What are your thoughts on that? I was really curious

Jo: many thoughts, but point of clarification, there weren’t Asian students in this movie were there or like, yeah,

Niketa: really,

JL: Wasn’t it? it was a, uh, Asian professor on the tenure committee though. And he

took it and he took a fence to, live [00:35:00] getting tenure. yeah.

Jo: that sounds about right. Yeah. And get out position the one, the single Asian character in proximity to whiteness. Right. Asians and institutions are Asian American as an identity is messy. It was a political term. , that was meant to be this sort of coalitional idea that aggregated a lot of experiences that span just swaths of difference.

And in universities, it does the same thing. You have very wealthy with a ton of educational privilege. And you have students who don’t have the same economic and social capital. , and so the use of Asian-American as a category often, is a range of experiences that . A lot of Asian-Americans who don’t necessarily fall into the demographics that tend to have more privilege.

So, okay. One, , in [00:36:00] higher ed Asian Americans are only counted as minorities when it’s convenient. a lot of the they’re like, statistics on how many racial minorities we have look at how diverse we are, then we’ll count Asian-Americans right.

But if we’re going to allocate this amount of resources for people of color, then we’re not going to count Asian Americans. \ when it serves the institution basically is when we’re going to count Asian Americans as minorities, and because Asian American experiences span such difference. And I honestly, just because we haven’t done a good job about, , creating.

Politicizing narratives around Asian American identity. There are Asian Americans who buy into that proximity to whiteness who invest in it. It’s, advantageous for a lot of folks who do, I mean, you know, I think this fall, this is true for a lot of marginalized identities. If you decide to be who aligns yourself with whiteness, you get rewarded for that.

Um, it’s never, you’re never actually going to inhabit whiteness, but you can use that proximity as a shield, in ways that other [00:37:00] people in your communities and people in the academy do that all of the time. So I hate that. That is often the only narrative that we have of Asian-Americans in the academy, , about proximity to whiteness.

, We don’t teach Asian-American history and a way that gives folks who aren’t otherwise grappling with their racial positionality and opportunity to think through. What does it mean to inhabit the body mind that is so often used, whose stories are so often used.

To erase racism. Right? So. That proximity of whiteness is not for Asian Americans, some benefit from it a lot more than others. And it’s actually a smaller minority than one would think. But that remains a dominant narrative and a small contingent of asian-americans perpetuate that by not questioning why their stories are being positioned in this way or even noticing that their stories are being positioned in this way [00:38:00] because they don’t have to

And of course that’s not even necessarily to fault individuals. I don’t like assigning individual blame or trying to speculate about individual motive. It’s that institutions encourage and reward this right over and over again. In a way that is designed.

To appropriate these people’s stories as institutional capital.

Constance: Thank you for that guess question and response, but I don’t know that we’ve gotten,

Jo: No,

Constance: J L and I got into a back and forth for a minute, so know. Gotten your official life, either favorite scene thing that was most provocative. And I don’t even know if he got yours and I looked like I, we, I just got in a back and forth with Dr.

Adolph. I don’t know.

Jo: Did we get Nikita’s talking point

Constance: I don’t think what’s your, what’s your favorite? What? Yeah, we hadn’t gotten your takeaway, your hot.

Niketa: Okay. So I will admit I couldn’t, I, it was such a difficult watch for me. So I just, I won’t say, I [00:39:00] won’t say I had a favorite scene or something that really. Hit me, but it was just little snippets here and there I’m just like, well, what was that? Like? What, wait, wait, wait, did that really happen? Like, oh, she bought those steel on nobody.

What? Like, it was just these moments that was just like, oh, like this, I don’t feel good. You know? Um, a couple of things that did stick out, stick out to me though, were these, um, images of the mammy popping up? Right? Like she was in the house and she found the little, you know, the novelty thing. Um, and even like the cafeteria worker, I think you and I Constance was talking about that.

Like we almost felt like that was probably like the most unrealistic scene. Cause I just feel like they actually made her like a mammy figure, right? Like, oh, I’m gonna take care of these white babies, you know, but my own, I’m going to be all harsh and strict and you know,

you know,

Constance: she did not give her the obligatory black people had not, you know, when you the or or [00:40:00] three. People in a space that you supposed to show love and especially you was supposed to give extra food to that sister. Like that was, that was not realistic.

don’t,

Niketa: get piece of bread.

JL: and cheese. Yo, she was

Niketa: Okay.

JL: like, I’m like really? You’re not going to chop her another school. I mean, come on now.

Constance: so Yeah.

Niketa: None,

Constance: Yeah, your Mami symbolism, I think is a good way that you articulated that. Okay. Yeah.

Niketa: me and mother and everything. Um, I think the library scene really hit me. Cause you know, library is just a sanctuary for me. It still is. And for a moment she thought she had some, she was really, you know, she, she was vibing with the librarian. She thought, okay, this is, you know, safe space. And then of course there’s a catch, right.

She had to check her bag, you know, and then the whole thing just had me triggered. But I think this, the imagery is demand. Tied in with the mate ideology, you know, and her coming to [00:41:00] this realization, I was appalled as well. When they put on, uh, what was the song they put on live, put on the radio, like ma’am, what are you doing?

Like, it’s just all of this performative blackness was getting on my nerves. I also noticed that Gail, when she was first going to lift house, it was near the beginning. She was trying to get her feedback, I guess, once they had the little, you know, welcome, you’re a master now, you know, was hesitant with her.

So I think deep down she’s had some reservations with live because she didn’t come all out. It wasn’t like a sister to sister check, you know, it wasn’t like me and Yukon is where I was like, girl, I just went to this faculty and blah, blah, blah. It was just like, there was a, there was a wall there, there was some coldness that I sent, you know, so I don’t know.

It’s a lot. It was just a lot for me to take in. I think I just. Internalized it just in bits and pieces, because I couldn’t really take the whole thing together is too triggering for me

to agree.

Constance: so, if I can [00:42:00] just jumping in, like, um, yes, I loved, uh, we already talked about the cafeteria lady to me, that library scene was so poignant. It reminded me of, think it’s in Kiese Laymon’s Heavy or in some other, autobiographical essay, but where he talks about, you know, being accused of like, or not even accused, I think he had kept the book out too long or something, but, having all of these things, like, you know, it’s of those incidents and other incidents where we see like contemporary,, black writers or creatives representing literacy barriers to literacy for black people.

Right? So it’s not as if we’re looking at texts where, you know, reading is literally out loud, but it becomes sort of metaphorically here is how they’re trying to keep, they’re trying to keep knowledge from us. Who cares if book didn’t get scanned, nobody can lie, but that wasn’t even the case.

Right. You got a faulty glitchy system and I always get paranoid when I’m at a library because I’m scared somebody in the [00:43:00] the thing, why is knowledge? That’s a whole other episode. Why, why are we got these things on books? Like, if people want to it like the free library, somebody want to take that book out, they going to bring it back home, but whatever, that’s another whole I’m gonna lead out anyway.

but

somebody in library science might have thoughts about that. Yeah. I do think to your point, um, about her reservations or coldness with, in terms of live. Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, I mean, we could say maybe that hesitancy is because she may be subconsciously or unconsciously knows there was some racial performance, but it could also be, worked so hard to get where I got, I had to do all of

Jo: Okay.

Constance: things.

this person who I like, but you know, she’s trying to skate. Right. It feels like. So I think there are two different levels. Like there is this narrative in much the same way that we talked about the chair. Like there’s, know, there’s one narrative that’s kind of funny. Ha ha. Then there’s this other very real [00:44:00] palpable tension.

Like I think I would be a little salty if I had to write two books or three books and had, you know, 50 11 articles for tenure. And I see this person trying to roll up in here with her. I don’t know what I can’t even remember, but they said it was real.

JL: With journal

Constance: she has some slight be like, but, but

Niketa: Okay.

Constance: you also understand that.

And then this is where I think that where I think the film to me is so skillful and speaks to academics a lot academics of color, because we recognize that idea of peer reviewed and scholarly articles is very much this good old boy network, where you can be a public intellectual, or you can have knowledge that’s accessible to people.

Um, you can cohost a podcast and talk about academic and intellectual things is, you know, so this validation of one type of knowledge, right. That Gail had to do in order to get accepted into place where [00:45:00] she ultimately ends up essentially feeling like she, maybe she shouldn’t have been in the first place.

Right. but also I would be salty as hell. So yeah, it’s, it’s a tension there, I think. Yeah, you’re right. There’s.

Niketa: Well, I guess just speaking about comradery too, just real quick, you know, she found the other black students too late, like where was y’all at? Where was this flyer? You know, like this be summer now. I mean,

JL: But, know what? I want to go back to the, um, to the music that Liv was playing and that sort of thing. Um, because I found it kind of interesting every time hip hop was used, followed behind some image of sexuality and that sort of thing. So when you think about it, like for instance, when were at the college party and, you know, they were playing a Scheck, song and that sorta thing, and right after [00:46:00] that, after Jasmine is dancing, then she ends up in the room with Tyler and then it’s like this kissing, but her roommate looked at her like, ah, you’re intruding into my space with your hip, uh, quote, unquote, talking about the mammy care to the Jessa veil that is coming to seduce this white male.

And it flips to a scene later on with her roommate and. And I guess a risk, a position with a group of me and outside that looked like it may have been some form of sexual abuse. So you got that. And then on the flip side, when the tender party she’s trying, and Liv is trying to say, let me let’s show this white male, like how we dance, how we shake it and that sort of thing.

Cause he said, I can’t move in that way. Well, we’ll show you how to move in that way. So I was just [00:47:00] interested in, take on, know, this whole idea of fear of black, uh, black women’s sexuality versus white, you know, I guess, restraint in sexual restraint, that sort of thing.

Constance: That’s deep. I don’t, I don’t even know. We might have to tackle that in another episode because I want to hear Jo’s takes, but here’s what I will say in my No, I’m never lacking for comments, but I just

Niketa: Ah,

Constance: um, yeah, I, that’s an interesting, like, I hadn’t even thought about that. That’s a really good point.

I think. I, I noticed the same thing, Nikita notice in terms of her playing it. Cause I think the fear was we can have black joy in our own spaces, you know, we could do, we probably wouldn’t necessarily mind twerking if it’s our peers, to do that in front of white people, Gail seemed to be, uh, especially sort of horrified by that because, you know, she, she viewed that as a type of, you know, racial and sexual performance, you know, to be sort of, I think like a shucking and jiving, I’m like, no, we’re not going to do that.

And [00:48:00] so, mean, that’s probably,

Niketa: test live, fail. And she, if she was really black, she would’ve known no, no, no. We don’t do that.

Constance: Right,

Niketa: I realized that she fell like, oh my God,

Constance: Yeah,

Niketa: do that mixed company, like.

Constance: yeah. That’s yeah. So anyway, I mean,

JL: Behind the seat. If you are a young graduate black graduate student of color work in the privacy of your own group.

Constance: Now listen though, I’m telling y’all not even trying to at night, all jokes aside. Cause we just got through watching the movie, dear white people and it’s like the conundrum that black people, know, have either a certain educational background or a certain class, run up against like, do I tip shitty service?

I don’t want to reaffirm the stereotype, I also don’t want to reward people for being racist and being assholes or like, do I eat fry? Even if I love fried chicken, can I eat fried chicken around a bunch of white people? I know I don’t want to be. You don’t want, you know, it’s a weird, yeah. I mean, I think the [00:49:00] film speaks to that weird.

I think that scene speaks to that weird, like what’s in group,, in house behavior versus what do we do, you know, to Nikita’s point, like we don’t do it in mixed company, just because we might do it, you know, amongst ourselves. So it’s a lot there, but, um, Jo, what’s your hot takes?

What are your.

Jo: So the thing I think about most, I think both in my cultural consumption in my work is what are the routes to, relationality and coalition and what are the things that prevent it from happening. So, I mean, back to Nikita’s question, the reason that Asian Americans are strategically positioned in proximity to whiteness was actually because of anti-blackness right?

Like we engineered in the history of Asians coming to the west, basically. It’s no longer sustainable for us to use slavery as a form of labor, because we’re trying to position ourselves as the like liberal frontier of progress. we’re going to import these Asian laborers and position them [00:50:00] as somehow culturally superior black folks, but also inferior to white folks.

But that narrative is going to prevent them from forming any sort of coalition and, you know, rise against us. Like that was, that was the strategy. and so the thing I’m noticing in this film is how it highlights the ways that institutions create of procarity and scarcity that prevent people who should otherwise be on the same side from acting in one another’s interests.

And so that, that deep discomfort, when Gail can’t help Jasmine in the way that she wants to, or should maybe, , captures for me. The worst part about being in the academy. Um, and Nikita talked about this a little bit, for me, like I, with my skillsets, with my disability, with who I am as a person, is probably the job with which I have the most resources at my disposal in order to keep that [00:51:00] job.

find myself in positions where it’s like, can throw everything out the window for this one fight, or I can think about what I need to have 10 years so that I can have this fight a dozen more times. But to make that decision, you can’t sleep at night, right? Because you’re like, what more could I have done?

And also you can’t save the world you are one person. And so you’re constantly spinning your circles, trying to figure out like, what is, what is the most I can do stay alive? Uh, what is the, what is the least I can do and sleep at night, right. And it’s Absorbing the responsibility of an institution, right?

Like you shouldn’t be in this position to begin with, but because of the institution refuses to be better, you as an individual are having to deal with that on an everyday basis. And that that’s what it captures for me.

Constance: So I want, just having come from this faculty, women of color conference was just amazing on Friday night, Dr. gay talked about, well, one, [00:52:00] said, you know, that this is the only place where people call me doctor other black women.

And she was just like, you’re welcome to call me Roxanne, but just appreciate that. But she also said some other really resonant things, um, Nicole Hannah Jones bay, two points that I thought were just so great. The first being something that you and I have talked about, Jo, and that you spoke to just now like narrative shapes policy.

And that was one of the things that, know, Nicole Hannah Jones talked about in terms of the backlash to the 16, 19 project, where she only wrote a few essays in that book, you know, it’s other scholars, but she became the face of it. Easier to, know, critique as a journalist and her identity and then to, to then tie that to critical race theory.

And then, in the sense that, you know, here’s where it starts, but then you see those same that are, you know, have done have instituted CRT bands that are now instituting for, parents of trans youth and bands for saying the word get, you know, so she’s [00:53:00] like, you know, this is where it starts, you know, and, and this is how it starts.

So that was the one thing that I thought was really resonant that you may, and then the other point that she made, um, yesterday, she’s talking about, um, um, Tazi Browns, accents, hearings, and she’s actually, I was kind of trying to do the live updates. I think it’s gone to send it now, but, she talks about where this moment where I think it might’ve been Corey Booker, but I’m not even sure, but where essentially someone is asking her about 16, 19 project and where.

Um, justice brown Jackson, you know, basically has to disavow that where she has to distance herself, know, from the 16, 19 project. And one of the things that, Nicole Hannah Jones was, was great about pointing out. And she was, she was really great when she came here and talked about re-segregation in school, you know, like So I really love the consistency of her work, but she says, know I’ll never be a Supreme court justice. Like we all have to make choices and I have privileged relative to a lot of. Women [00:54:00] of color. And so I’m able to do and get away with some things that other people can’t. And I recognize that, and I can’t criticize because some people’s livelihood.

like, I can say a lot of stuff and I have political cover or I’m going to still be, I’m going to still be able to feed my family, so she’s like, well, I hated that moment, but I also understand. Uh, she said I would never probably be in that position, but I also know I’m not going to ever be a Supreme court justice because I’m not going to be, you know, like though there was a, some sacrifices or some choices that I am not willing to make.

and because of decisions that I’ve made regarding my personal identity, my career, et cetera, won’t be in certain spaces. And I’m okay with that. So this idea that we have to make choices, is really the image. I think that we end up being left with, because you know, when Gail, is crazy, this woman was the face of the, of the face of diversity, right.

At the institution and all, all these commercials by the security, quite literally where the security guard doesn’t recognize her, you know? [00:55:00] Right. And at the end, when he’s like, do you work here? she says, no, and y’all I kid you not. I think I just told Nikita this, a friend of mine in academia and I won’t name names, though she might not listen to this podcast, girl, you need to listen to the podcasts, but she’s academia.

And she’s like, oh, I thought she was leaving to go to another institution. I’m leaving academia all together. I was like, oh, okay. Well, all righty. So I mean, so it’s like, what are the w what can we live with? I think it was the point that Nicole Hannah Jones made and that I think, the film ask us, and I think, you know, that w you know, what are the decisions and choices that we can live with?

And I saw that to me, that kind of, I don’t want to say metaphor, but that scene is really powerful, it invokes that question for me. And I don’t know the answer to that. Right. yeah. Do either of y’all want it, that felt heavy, but

Niketa: mean,

I, no, no, I think you hit it. Um, and I’m going to speak from a journalism perspective because I’m, [00:56:00] I’m like the three of you, I am not a true academic. I’m more of a professor of practice. Uh, but the burden is still there across industries. Right. Um, and a lot of it is, you know, you all are, well-versed in research and academia.

I’m overseas in journalism. I know the rules. And a lot of times what we’re seeing is us having to defend policies that are systemically racist, you know, and we’re seeing it all play out. And I’m not saying this particular situation I’m going to say, you know, is racist, but you know, you think about the power of titles, um, in the black community in particular.

Um, I know that there’s a practice with AP style. We don’t give anybody, they doctor, we don’t call you that unless you a medical doctor.

And when you’re talking to diverse audiences, they’re like, well, you better give them the, they live in their letters and they earned that title. And it’s just like you guys being racist.

It’s like, no, we just don’t [00:57:00] do that. You know, it is like you see yourself in these positions where you’re having to explain, you know, why we didn’t do X, Y, and Z, you know, but you know, certain things are important to your community. So it’s like, you have to choose, do I break the rules? And you find yourself in a position where you’re educating both sides, you know?

So. I think I have related to Gail bringing it back. I relate it to Gail because she’s having to educate or actually, you know, help her white colleagues.

Jo: Um,

Niketa: But she’s also having to support Jasmine, you know, as like representing, supporting in, in educating them on the system. And I dunno, like I said, the whole thing left me trigger, but you just talking about, you know, Roxanne gay.

Ooh. Who did you say was that your, your

conference

Constance: but,

Niketa: call doctor, you

know?

Constance: the, thing though. I think, so whole, there’s two things. Oh, if that’s AP you know, form or style, you know, in terms of associated press, that that may be fine. But in terms of announcing and giving [00:58:00] titles, you know, verbally, that’s ultimately a little different than in print.

So

Niketa: Yeah.

Constance: still give us a day. I think, especially in the context that she was talking about, in terms of white me and trying to diminish her intelligence, but the other thing I would say is about industry standards, that if that industry was created by and sustained by white people, then that might be something to push back anyway, cause I know that, I mean, I don’t know specifically like the black journalists association stance on, on that, but you know, just in thinking about, let’s say linguistic justice, where just, what is it just been the last three or four years that we’ve said, Hey, you need to capitalize black,

Niketa: exactly.

It goes back against the rules.

They’re not set in stone. You know what I mean?

Constance: rules.

Niketa: Those things, you know what I mean? You made me think about that. It’s like, well, in a minute, I’m like, well, actually it’s like, wait a minute. You know what I mean? Thank you.

Constance: Who made them, who they benefit. I may like that that may be the rule, but it’s probably arbitrary as most rules are

Jo: Yeah, it’s funny. You use that [00:59:00] because I have seen the AP rules use this justification for not referring to specifically a black woman professor as doctor, right? Like I don’t need to, because the AP only uses doctor for, , , physicians or MDs. And I’ve, I’ve seen that in public deliberation as like a reason, basically someone who was racist did not want to acknowledge the degrees of the person who was addressing.

Niketa: So you’re actually upholding because you’re, well-trained, you know,

Constance: well, I don’t know. Y’all we could probably, so here’s what we should probably do. Cause I mean, we got all the fields and all the thoughts, I think. Um, try to get one. I want people to be able to know where they can find y’all on social media, but I do want to know if they’re like people like thoughts that each of you want to leave us with.

I think I kind of like my unintentionally, my last kind of comment about like, what are the choices we can live with and, you know, do you walk away? I feel like that was kind of my, like that last scene also feels like it’s sort of wrapping up my take. [01:00:00] But do each of you have maybe in a sentence or less, you know, why, why should people watch the film or do you think is like the biggest takeaway your takeaway.

Niketa: Oh, you want me to go? I would say overall, I think people need to watch this film because more and more films like this are actually challenging. Our idea of who the real monsters are, uh, who the real boogeyman is. Um, and they’re looking at it and, you know, just a different lens and I will hope that they are open enough to listen to and pick up on the themes, you know, and it is disheartening to see, you know, the critics go after the way they did and they refuse to see it because everybody wants to say racism is this evil man.

You know what? The Mustang is yelling the N word, you know, but it’s, it’s more insidious, you know, is, is, is deeper. You know what I mean? So I, I like movies like this because it does challenge our idea of what racism looks like, what, you know, what evil looks like in a lot of [01:01:00] times it’s right on your nose.

And that makes it scary as of all. So,

that’s my take from it. Yes. Like who was the real boogeyman, you know, but that’s my take away.

Jo: I don’t, I kind of want to follow that because my takeaway thought kind of connects constances in, Nikita’s thinking through both the movie and our conversation, what I always end up arriving at in this like messy world that we have to live in and work in is the need to hold on to who is the actual perpetrator of harm in this situation who am I fighting for?

And use those to draw the hard lines in the choices you have to make within these institutions. And that’s sort of the best way I’ve found of navigating the inherently harmful worlds that we have to step into and navigate, right? Like who is the one who’s actually harm because institutions love to sort of reorient you and redirect your anger and hurt other people.

And also who am I fighting for? And [01:02:00] you know, how do I make sure that my actions are oriented toward those things?

JL: Yeah.

Constance: awesome. JL. What you got.

JL: Okay. So the reason why you should watch this is because I believe that master is a cinema talk, cinematic version of Ellison’s invisible man, so to speak. And, um, and I’ll just break it down, like real quick, like with Dyson, he basically, uh, Michael Eric Dyson said in the article is three types of black people.

And in that film, you get the accidental black, um, that, Hey, I can’t help it. I’m black, the incidental black, is kind of like the Barack Obama. Yeah, I’m good. But you know, just so happened to be black too. And then you got the intentional black, I think with the accidental, you got Jasmine with the incidental, you got Gale.

With [01:03:00] the intentional you got live and how do we all live with that? So, um, that’s it ends just like Ralph Ellison’s invisible man too, with Gail walking away. And you’re like, how realistic is this?

Niketa: Perfect.

Constance: That’s insane. It’s insanely funny that the intentional black is the person who we’re led to believe is probably not black. So that is very,

JL: We got to meet intentionally more black.

Constance: you got, Hey, she got defensive when you questioned her blackness, like, Hey, who are you? Who are you to decide? Okay. So don’t be, don’t try to put nobody puts baby in a corner.

Okay. Don’t don’t do that. Um, all right. So then, um, Nikita, where, and, and, and just, you know, full disclosure, we talked a lot and unpack the lab. There’s a lot of symbolism in the title and some maggots and some old dead white guys and pictures that come to life. And a lot of like, sort of obvious symbolism that we didn’t get to, [01:04:00] but we’ll try to address, you know, some of the illusions that we talked about, um, you know, different texts that we refer to in the show notes.

but before we go on Nikita, where can people find you on social media?

Niketa: Yes, so I can be reached at, um, AR got sold. Um, I’m devoting a bunch of my time to build an AR platform. Um, era got sold across all the social media platforms and era got sold. That com if you want to read the latest news for BiPAP Arcadians is in the natural state. So.

Constance: Awesome. Great. Thank you so much. And then JL, where can folks find you?

JL: you can find me on the major social media networks under dad’s cipher, D a D C Y P H G. Our dad’s cipher, a hip hop guy to fatherhood. Um, this is my bad dad joke. I’m debt. Ciphering the content in hip hop lyricism and showing what we should learn from it. So you [01:05:00] into hip hop fatherhood and avid marble head, and check me out on all of those platforms and that sort of thing.

Constance: Yeah. And if you do some crossovers though, you know, Jo and I’ll hop on and, and, and chop it up with you. Um, you’re not a guest, but would you like to tell people where they can find you on social

Jo: I guess I’ve never done. We’ve never done that on this show, but you can, yeah. You can find my website at www.vjohsu.com and there’s contact info there.

Constance: Awesome. Yeah, I am on Twitter. I think my handle is at CNA Bailey that parable of the professor, or it might still be their eyes were watching COVID uh, that was it at one point. But if you, if you at see Renee Bailey, can find it or you can find the podcast, right? Um, the underscore unpack this podcast at Twitter and our G bail, the unpack this podcast@gmail.com.

If you have questions, comments, suggestions, things you want us to unpack. that we have almost figured out the technology thing, we [01:06:00] can have guests, like, we almost know how to do this thing. Y’all have a great one. We’ll talk to you soon.