Unpacking Inside Higher Ed’s “Hard Academic ‘Truths'”

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Unpacking Inside Higher Ed’s “Hard Academic ‘Truths’”

Jo:  \[00:00:00] Hello listeners. This is Jo Hsu. So if you’ve stuck with us for a while, a half, first of all, thank you very much. We appreciate you. Second. You are probably accustomed to the fact that Constance and I are making this up as we go. So this episode is one that we recorded early in 2022 and put back because we wanted to put out our episodes with our phenomenal guests sooner.

But now here for you is an episode where we unpack an article from Inside Higher Ed by Professor Jennifer Snodgrass titled seven hard truths and a few lies. Where she’s going through several hard truths about academic life, and then… unpacking if you will some lies that we tend to believe when we first enter academic life.

So. Thank you for sticking with us, and we hope you enjoy this episode.

Jo: Welcome to unpack this where academic misfits unload their shit. It is 2022 and [00:01:00] we’re off to a new year. And today we’re going to be unpacking an article from inside higher ed titled seven hard truths and a few lies. So I’m Jo Hsu. I’m one of your hosts. And.

Constance: I am Constance Bailey your other host.

Jo: And we wound up with this article because Constance actually tagged me on Facebook about it because it’s been making the rounds, I guess, Constance I’ll let you intro the topic for the day.

Constance: Yeah. So I, you know, it’s interesting. It kind of reminded me of the two truths and a lie in some ways the title invoke that for me. So I thought, oh, you know, I’ll check it out. And again, it was kind of making the rounds.

So, the title again, seven hard truths, and a few lies was interesting because I thought, okay, you know, what are these truths? And are they. General to all academics. I wondered Were there things that were specific to humanities scholars that might be different? I wondered about quote unquote lies.

Cause I was thinking, does the [00:02:00] author, Jennifer Snodgrass, does she mean like explicit lies like

that you get like a switch and bait? You signed your contract, they tell you one thing and then it ends up being, you know, another thing. And so I guess I was really intrigued by that title.

And once I got into it, it was interesting. I certainly see the appeal for a lot of academics. Some of it did resonate with me. I wonder, did this article overall, did it convey a sense of disillusionment with academia?

And I mean, I suspect that might be it. I mean, I guess that’s a thing that at the end we could return to, once we look at the list, because I also love my job, I think you probably love your job. And so I wondered if people. the piece came away from it with a sense of, you know, like this is a shit show and I don’t need to, you know, I want to do something different.

So, so I’m not sure. Right. I hadn’t done a temperature gauge from other, friends or people outside the field. But yeah, I mean, I thought it would just be interesting to look at and [00:03:00] some of them, I think for sure will resonate with both of us, probably the same ones, but, so yeah, I just thought we should talk about it.

Jo: Yeah, so, okay. It’s a step back real quick. Uh it’s by Jennifer Snodgrass, who’s a professor at Appalachian state and the tagline is some of the negative realities of academic life that people often avoid discussing. It kind of goes back to our first episode, which is, you know, when somebody asks you.

I want to go into this profession, what’s it like, what do you say? You know, how to convey this in a way that grounds them in reality, without scaring, you know, good colleagues away. , I think that that’s a good starting point and to respond to your, your fact about, or your comment about portraying this profession in a negative light, I think.

So right now, teachers and professors are fleeing the profession in very large numbers. I struggle, in terms of seeing the bigger picture a lot, because I’ve always been an academic, you know, despite all of the side gigs, this has always been sort of my primary [00:04:00] pursuit. So I think I’ve said it before, but.

I know what the absurdities and terribleness is here. I don’t know if that is a universal fact or if there are different types of absurdities and terribleness in other places, or if this is a particular type of absurd and terrible, that is not at all present in other places.

Constance: Yeah, that’s a really good point. And you would think with all of my side gigs that I would be a little bit more well equipped to speak to that, but I don’t know that I can, because I think academia has been, the field that I’ve been more firmly ensconced and in spite of many, many side gigs and yeah, that’s a really great question.

I think. You know, and we’ve talked about this before, right? We’re seeing, so many industries that struggle, you know, at this particular moment, COVID this idea of, essential, really being coded language for, precarious, vulnerable, expendable. And so some of the, um, Privileges, [00:05:00] I think, or some of the things that we have historically thought of as privileges, right.

As academics, we’re now kind of rethinking that because many of us who are going back into the classroom face to face, I think also feels similarly expendable or disposable in some ways. So, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting. I feel like I want to jump into the first one only because.

I don’t know, but I feel like I may have more firsthand experience with this one. So Snodgrass is first truth, is that more than likely your first job? Won’t be on the tenure track in a location you love or at a large research institution? You might also be able to speak about location.

Like you didn’t have a job on the beach or wherever your most desirable location is, but my, first position was certainly not tenure track, but part of it was, I went on the market early. I don’t know if this is something we talked about. If we could, give any advice to doctoral candidates, finish the dissertation.

It just really becomes difficult to nigh impossible. Once you [00:06:00] have the responsibilities of teaching, if you don’t have your PhD in hand, the likelihood is that you have a job at a teaching heavy institution. So either a community college or you’re an instructor.

So you may have at least probably four or five. Teaching. And so, you know, even though you may be close to the end, or you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, that’s relative, right? When you send revisions to a dissertation chair or committee, they have other responsibilities, they are teaching classes often they are engaged in research.

So the timing just becomes really difficult. Although I will say I took a position that was closer, much closer to family, so I was glad about that. And I was on the Mississippi Gulf coast. I had wonderful colleagues. I think that’s been probably the case. Most of the places that I’ve been I’ve had wonderful colleagues.

And so that’s always great, but I certainly was not. And I take that back. The main campus of that institution, I think has [00:07:00] our one designation, actually, I haven’t checked in a while, but it was a research institution I was at a branch campus. I had an instructor position., but if you want to talk a little bit more about that, what was your experience like or how did your expectation meet with your reality?

Jo: Okay. So the first thing I want to, uh, challenge about truth, number one is. The premise that everybody wants to be on the tenure track or at a large research institution. And there are reasons for that assumption, some more valid than others or one being the sort of elitism that goes with, research institutions, which is not a valid reason.

The second being that, large research institutions tend to pay better, and, or give you a. Lighter teaching load so that you can do your research. If your research is something that you’re interested in doing. I want to resist despite the fact that we were both at research institutions, I want to resist that narrative in higher ed.

That those are the only worthwhile jobs, right. Because I actually,, I don’t think that I would be capable of the more teaching [00:08:00] intensive jobs. Teaching is. a completely important part of this gig. And I resist the way that it is devalued and sort of the ways these things are discussed.

So, so that’s my sort of like footnote for, for a truth number one that said, I am also absurdly lucky in that I did get the tenure track job on my first time on the market, at a research institution at the one where we met it, differed from my expectations in that. I didn’t at all expect to get a faculty position .

I didn’t expect to become an academic. , I’ve said this multiple times, I also didn’t plan on being into research. The sort of publish or perish imperative has always been something that gives me tremendous anxiety. I’ve always said it’s something that I didn’t want hanging over me. And it is, you know, , for a lot of us, I think still something that, causes me to lose sleep at night.

, It was just that while I was on the market. And this is the sort of emotionally cruel part of the job market experience is that you [00:09:00] have to imagine yourself at every place that you apply to and you have to convincingly tell them this narrative of who you are and why you’re a good fit there and what you’d be doing there.

And when you do that, you are telling yourself this story too. And so. My campus visits my first time on the market where like three totally disparate jobs. There was this R one research intensive institution. There was a tiny liberal arts school and there was a writing program administrator position at a big state school.

So they were like three totally different. Elements of academic life. And having that experience, I realized that this research gig was the one that I really felt like where my heart was. Um, and that was, that was the moment that I learned this about myself, that this is the thing I wanted to pursue.

So, I mean, yes. So to respond to that, number one, yes, it is hard to even be able to name. The thing that you want to do, the place you’ll [00:10:00] want to do it just because of the number of jobs and the sheer amount of luck it takes to land any job in higher ed. Once you leave with your PhD.

Constance: Yeah, that’s a great point. So those are really disparate. I have, you know, That feels it’s all the same field, but yeah. Position-wise and, and to your point, you know, different types of institutions, one thing I will say just to, to, um, double back just a little bit, I think, Snodgrass does add, you know, in some ways, almost like her own footnote, right?

She says, advice, don’t limit yourself. And then she points out, quote, moreover, what you think you may want or what your dissertation committee deems correct. Might not be the best fit for you at all. If you can’t completely reject the possibility of a certain position apply anyway.

So I think, that’s seems like really sound advice. They tell us, apply for things that other people may not say as quote unquote, sort of worthy of you writing. So in some ways, research institutions are trying to replicate, themselves.

So they’re replicating other scholars who are going to be immersed in research and, to some degree, their ranking [00:11:00] or reputation, may hinge on, the placement of their graduates or at least that’s one of the factors. So I think that’s sometimes why we’re pushed or encouraged to get jobs that may not necessarily speak best to our personality or to whatever.

But to return to, I think a previous conversation, I have always been extremely. If not always in terms of securing offers, but in terms of getting interviews, because I always imagined the end result and I’m like, can I live in this community? Do I have easy access to visit family? You know, is it an easydrive or is it close to an airport because my family has been so important to me and weather has been important to me.

And so I’ve had a very, finite pool and in a lot of times there, there have been things that I’ve been immensely qualified for that. Can’t imagine myself in upstate New York, not gonna, not going to waste their time or their money, not going to waste my time because I’m always going to apply with the assumption that, Hey, I’m going to get this job and that doesn’t usually happen.

But, I think I’m an eternal optimist. Um, [00:12:00] and so. In an emphasis securing a job is the end result. You know, I think people should try to imagine themselves in that space. And then you can one be very specific in your, letters in terms of applying. You can say here’s why you were a great fit, but also too, you can also be very honest with yourself and save yourself that time.

The job applications are like that’s. it’s like a second whole

other job and it’s very time-consuming so be mindful of that and apply for things that people may not consider appropriate or a good fit for you, I think is still a good point and also speaks to both of our experience a little bit.

Jo: Yeah, thank you for underscoring Snodgrass’s is point there cause I do–I think she addresses that, that point as well. It’s more of a you’re right. Uh, PhD institutions tend to want to replicate themselves and we all have to come from research institutions to get the PhD, which is why that sort of narrative is embedded in our, our trajectories.

, moving [00:13:00] on to truth. Number two. It says you might be hired because of your innovative thoughts, but be aware that most faculty members will resent change. , so I, I agree with this point, institutions are very, very slow to change, much slower than I would have even guests before I entered into one. I will also temper that with the fact that I was definitely sometimes still am one of those people who wanted to blow everything up, you know, um, raze everything to the ground.

I tend to attract students who have that perspective too, and are now I find myself often in the position of having to say, okay, you can lob things at the institution, from the outside. But right now you’re a student here. So we’re going to have to figure out how to get from point a to point B and there needs to be sort of a journey we can take that doesn’t involve us teleporting to the place where we want to be.

Like I’m with you. [00:14:00] These things need to change. I want them to change. We, we need a method to get there for as long as we’re technically a part of this institution, you know, like we’re, we’re not here for the institution. And technically I’m here to steal from the institution for my communities as much as I can, but bore as long as we are.

Within the mechanisms of the institution, as long as this is the location from which we’re choosing to do that work, we need a way of engaging. The institution that allows us to move from point a to point b what do you think

Constance: Yeah. That’s I think that’s exactly right. I mean, well, it’s interesting, right. Especially now that I’m on the other side, right. As a student, I remember certainly, wanting to, advocate for change and like, why is this, this way? And wanting to, blow things up and even as a junior faculty to some degree, still wanting to do that.

I think institutions, and units are slower to change in part because there’s bureaucracy, right? There’s lots of things involved in just, in even producing a [00:15:00] statement that the faculty can come to a consensus on represents their opinion and is not subject to litigation.

So some of that timing has to do, with just the. Internal processes of the university and of departments. But it just in terms of, I think in terms of like the departmental level and in terms of, um, ideology, maybe I think that, and this my, I might be being idealistic.

I do think that most English departments and humanities programs are. Comprised of individuals who are fairly progressive. So I don’t know. It’s so much that they resent change. Here’s what I think of. I think that. By the time we come in as junior faculty members, most people who have been advocating for change or who have been trying to do things are now tired and exhausted.

And so they don’t necessarily want to do the work or they’re disillusioned, or they’re battling [00:16:00] for, moving from associate to full or to whatever their particular struggle is. And so when you try to initiate change, You will find that to be sort of an uphill struggle and you might very well be in the trenches alone.

And, and I don’t know that it’s all the time because people resent change so much as they are not invested. Right. That they cannot, that can’t be their battle. So that’s the way that I sometimes think about it. And I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s what it feels like. So.

Jo: So there’s something that resonates in there with me about how change, particularly in making changes in institutions requires relationships, you know? , and so one of the things about coming in as the person with innovative thoughts, Great, but it takes a while to build the relationships and to get the lay of the land that you need to have in order to know how to move in this space where you’re new.

And I mean, this is sort of the thing about trying to create change in, in any space is that you [00:17:00] are the new person there and it, you, you should be listening for a little bit about what you, you know, what conversations were happening before you got there. , so, so yeah, I think. It’s, it’s sometimes difficult to pull in the reins because you have all of these ideas and you’re so excited to be here, but those ideas will go a lot further when you have other people with you and building with you, and that can lead to tremendous change.

And I’ve seen it do like really wonderful and groundbreaking things. It just, it takes time. , and sometimes, , more patience than we feel like we necessarily have in the moment.

Constance: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the other thing I will say about that would probably the last thing I’ll say about that is that what sometimes feels like. I know, for instance, I think in some ways my, I don’t want to say my reputation proceeds me, but I think I am perceived as like a mover and shaker. As a person who does things.

But in some ways, not really. And I say that because I. Create and sometimes [00:18:00] implement innovative programming things, but that is because I think, and I’m could certainly be wrong, but I think that institutions who are particularly resistant to change will say, let me give this person money. Let me do this thing.

And sometimes those can be gestures and performative as a way to actively resist change, I think. And I’m not saying that is particular to this institution. Like, I don’t think that that’s what’s necessarily happening when I’m funding events, at my particular institution, but I’m just saying.

In theory, that can be the case. And I think in a lot of cases, that can actually be the case that people will support and finance things that are, ostensibly doing, let’s say DEI work or that are, addressing, equity issues because it gives the appearance of doing some of the deeper work and change that is actually not being done.

And sometimes that people are, or institutions are unwilling to do. So I would [00:19:00] say that’s the caveat, um, Kind of my initial sort of optimistic reading of which I do still agree with in terms of individual faculty, right. They’re tired, they’re burdened, but just in terms of institutions and change and their relation to that.

Jo: I think we’ll probably need a whole other episode on sort of DEI and the ways that change and diversity and inclusion happen in an institution. But my, my note here is that oftentimes. The meaningful or really the groundwork that needs to happen for change happens outside of those official channels.

And it took me, you know, a second after I arrived on campus to realize that there were these formal places where the diversity was supposed to be happening. And these informal places where the actual relationships again were being built in order for any sort of meaningful change to happen.

Constance: Yes, I would agree. 100% so true. Oh, okay. So truth number three. I feel like we’re alternating, but we could, I, [00:20:00]

Jo: Yeah, go for it. Let’s let’s alternate.

Constance: Yeah. Okay. So, this one we might tag in, cause I, I know I’m like, Amen truth, number three, Snodgrass. Says you will spend a significant amount of time in meetings and working on administrative.

Amen sister. Yeah. I mean, I don’t, I really don’t have much to say about that. I think, despite your disciplinary background, I’ve felt like this is probably true and I suspect it’s true. And in a lot of non-academic fields too, right? I mean, they talk about the teaching load. I think this is one of the things that I love when I see those memes going around the teacher means.

Not just like the professor, but like here’s what my friends think, what my parents think I do, here’s what I actually do or one that’s like, people think teachers get the summers off and it’s like, what are you talking about?

So. What sometimes feels like, people outside our discipline or outside of the academy are trying to quantify our [00:21:00] work because they’re thinking, oh, this person teaches, two classes a semester. And so therefore, they’re teaching, blah, blah, blah, when that’s kind of minutia

that time in the classroom is, such a small fraction of your work time. And in fact, administrative task and other just task, right. Is so not even your teaching or your research, right. Just takes up a lot of time. And I don’t really have anything eloquent to say I’m just rambling.

Jo: Yeah. So, , one of the things that my grad program did was that they brought in grads who were assistant professors to talk to us about what this job was like. And at the time, again, I didn’t think I was going to be a faculty member, so I wasn’t paying terrible amount of time, attention, but I do remember them saying, oh my God, the committee work.

And at the time I was like, committees, what do you mean committees? What are committees? And now we realize that that is an absurd portion of the workload, which is the say that, you know, universities are run by faculty and that’s sort of the side, like when you’re in grad school, you get a tiny taste of the research.

You get a little [00:22:00] bit of the teaching. What you don’t quite do is the administrative work, which is designing the curriculum, hiring new faculty, admitting students reviewing, You know, plans for evolving the department, whatever it is, but all of that has to happen through faculty labor. And so that is the other sort of third of the job that also expands well beyond.

its supposed to piece of thepie.

Constance: Yeah. And I mean, the only other thing I might add is that I don’t know. I mean, so for, for black scholars, it’s called the black tax. I don’t know if for people of color or for trans scholars. If people append tax at the end of their preferred identity, but you know, committee work, even though it doesn’t go a whole ton of a way in terms of like how you’re evaluated for tenure, like services is the least amount of important thing, but you’re still expected to do it.

At least you can list it on your Vita, but there’s all. Invisible, [00:23:00] ask that, women and black faculty and minorities and trans scholars that all kinds of scholars are asked to do that you can’t even list on the CV. And that takes an emotional toll that takes time.

And, it’s the labor that I think, I think their labors of love, oftentimes, on behalf of our students

or.

Jo: survival.

Constance: Well, yeah, that’s true too, I mean that doesn’t even go into this, this number, which, yeah, I’m just rambling, but I feel this number three so much.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess just the last note on that is, is there’s a lot of work. Gets done by marginalized faculty, disabled faculty, queer faculty, capital of color, because it is necessary, right? For POC, for disabled people, for queer people to be able to survive this institution. So it is both work so that I can be here and work so that my students can get through.

So it is. A large part of that quote, unquote diversity inclusion work that isn’t part of the [00:24:00] formal committees or, or programming or whatever, but that needs to happen, whether that is advocating for someone behind the scenes, whether that is creating these small spaces or events where people can feel seen, whether that is holding space for somebody who just experienced some sort of marginalization.

Class that another faculty member didn’t realize that there were perpetuating. Um, but all of that adds up both emotionally and in terms of time. , and it is at the end of the day, actually, I want to say that that’s why I’m here. If I couldn’t do that, then I wouldn’t want to be here, but it is also the most difficult part of this job sometimes.

Constance: Yeah, I would second that or third that if I could.

Jo: All right. So, so truth number four is imposter syndrome never really goes away. And I, you know, giant nod for me here. , I’ve always felt like an outsider in academic spaces, , particularly. [00:25:00] In, research-based spaces because I was a creative writer who sort of fell backwards into this career.

so that’s, that’s definitely always been here for me, especially for marginalized scholars of every kind, , you are drawing from and often creating bodies of knowledge that intentionally pushed back against sort of what the academy was built on and what it’s meant to sustain. So it’s, it’s made to, to make you feel that way.

Constance: Yeah. I mean, I think I would agree with that. I mean, I think that. imposter syndrome is interesting because yes, I would agree that and it never really goes away in some ways it evolves or the way that it looks, changes. But what I will say is that I don’t even know if it’s the sense of.

Intimidation so as a graduate student, I think we feel intimidated by scholars that we have either studied under or whose research we’ve read. And as, junior scholars or emerging [00:26:00] scholars or the sense that, you can’t have read everything or you can’t have access to all bodies of knowledge as a thing.

And I think at some point. We start to become more comfortable in that and kind of embrace what we do and start to do well. So I do think that there are times, I think where I feel like it creeps up, is when you’re applying for the fellowship or when you’re doing the thing where you have to talk about your preparedness and your knowledge, then I think we kind of fall back into some of those old habits.

But, more generally. I think people have come to, I feel like there’s less academic hazing. That’s what I feel like I’m going with this is that

I feel like there’s less of an expectation by senior scholars that you have read and know everything, but I could be wrong.

I

Jo: Or, or you learn to see academic hazing for what it is, , which is something you don’t necessarily recognize when you’re a grad student and it’s all around you. The other thing I want to add to that is the sort of [00:27:00] attitude of academia perpetuates this, right? That’s one, the job, your job is to be an expert.

And even though we all know that we can’t know all the things, our job is actually to be the expert on our very particular avenue. There, there is this sort of assumption, oh, you study blank. You haven’t read. So-and-so how totally absurd. And that so-and-so is usually someone embedded in the cannon who draws from a very particular body of knowledge.

And so what I’ve often said to say, POC students studying more marginalized bodies of knowledge, is that. Unfortunately, what you’re being asked to do is you’re being asked to do your thing and also their thing very well, which is why you’re getting this in seminar in ways that other students are, are not.

And you’re going to come out of here knowing double what everybody else does, because you do end up knowing their thing and your thing very well. But that is why you feel completely alien and outcast in this space. Right?

Constance: Yeah. And then also you’re going to come out of it doing double the work, right? Because you’re [00:28:00] drawing on a body of knowledge and tradition that, one is probably not your specific area, but also that you may not, that you don’t necessarily privilege or value in the same way. And So, then you still have to go and learn your other thing.

It’s yeah, it’s very daunting. And I think, in some ways can be designed to intimidate up and coming scholars or graduate students, but I don’t know.

Jo: Yeah. So, I mean, if there are any people with more power listening to our podcasts, the thing to know is that it doesn’t have to be this way, right? There are actual other ways to have our conversations, to engage different bodies of knowledge that aren’t about reifying, a Canon, or that expecting everybody to sort of value that same pool of knowledge.

Constance: Yeah. And I’ve seen some change in some programs over the years where it’s like, you know, you don’t just have to take. Shakespeare, you could also take this equivalent. Whatever, I’m making some things up now, and I don’t know that that’s true. [00:29:00] Maybe everybody has to take Shakespeare, but my point is I have seen some gradual shifts.

Jo: Yes. And my last bit of snark is that what drives me up the wall about. This attitude is that our job is to do our thing that is supposed to be our thing. Right? So I don’t quite understand the academic attitude. That is why is your thing? Not my thing, because that’s actually counter to what you should be doing with your job, right?

You should be encouraging people to pursue avenues of knowledge that you don’t have the time and expertise to pursue. but anyway, moving on, uh, truth number five.

Constance: Yes. All right. True. number five.

Egos are huge. People may turn on you disappoint you and surprise you. This is an interesting, I mean, I would be curious to hear your thoughts. So I don’t know that I have a lot of. Expertise slash experience with this, although I certainly could see how this could be a truth, for [00:30:00] sure.

I don’t know that I have a firsthand experience with this, or at least maybe in the way that’s Snodgrass is articulating and maybe that’s it.

Jo: Yeah. So I think I can think about this a couple of ways. One is that. Interpersonal relationships are kind of are challenging for me in general, possibly because of neurodivergence, but also specifically in academia because of the way that this is a very rigid. Power structure. And so just thinking about relationships between, say grad students and faculty, , it’s difficult there because in some ways you’re a junior colleague, you know, and in some ways they’re training you to be, and in some ways they are still your faculty member.

So, , I, something I’ve witnessed is students sort of feeling like these faculty members are basically their peers. And then realizing that, that. Boundary needs to be redrawn, [00:31:00] right? When they are being evaluated, when they are defending their dissertation in that.

Um, and that’s sort of a product of the structure more so than the person, but I think is a pattern that happens quite a bit in these institutions.

Constance: Yeah. I guess because I like sports, maybe I’ll go to the sports analogy. . Well, It’s not even so much that I’m resisting this as a truth. That certainly could be true. And I can see where I’m sure in many cases is true. I guess I sort of resist this idea because ego is not an issue that I suffer from because I think of myself more as a.

Uh, coach more so than Michael Jordan. I don’t think I’m ever going to be Jordan, but I could be, um, Phil Jackson, maybe like, you know, so I do very much view myself as, trying to help prepare junior scholars and sort of build them up and help them understand and define and articulate their own academic voice. So to me, their success is my [00:32:00] success. You know, if, if my grad student gets, Whatever press. These are recognition. That’s press, these are recognition for me. And I feel like that’s the way the academics should think about it. And like, uh, in the NFL, they always talk about bill Bella check’s coaching tree, and that such-and-such coach has a Superbowl ring and he’s a part of his coaching tree, which that’s a whole other episode because I don’t know how successful that tree is, but having said. It’s interesting that, I guess I could see maybe in science or even social sciences where, for instance, co-op that paper and sort of first Arthur, second author, third author, you know, I could maybe see a little bit more of this as an issue,

Jo: so there is, I mean, precarity and scarcity creates an environment where people feel competitive for certain resources. Right. So I I’d say that even in the humanities too, there. Sometimes can be [00:33:00] in this environment where there, there can only be one right there that where people feel like they’re vying for the same tiny pool of resources or for this tiny bit of attention and accolades, which again is kind of absurd when using back out and realize that three people read our articles.

Um, but. I do agree that with the author, that this happens that very unfortunately, especially because you expect people who work in your area who are committed to the same values and the same outcomes that you are, you would think that they would want to build together and they will want to work with you.

But sometimes. And again, it’s a part of the environment. Sometimes that that notion of scarcity creates this sort of tension where people might feel more antagonistic towards people who should be their collaborators.

Constance: Yeah, well, that’s a good point. I’m not even disagreeing with that. I certainly can see that. I mean, I wonder is that. Uh, product of ego or is it a chicken and egg thing? Right? , is the scarcity of [00:34:00] resources, or the lack of support for certain types of things. Does that create, you know, this, uh, competition whereby people sort of assert their identity in way?

Like, I don’t know. So yeah, So I could see certainly ego kind of rearing its ugly head in that context. And there are probably other contexts that we could talk about, but yeah, so . That’s, I’m glad that you. , articulate that or expand on that better. Cause I, was really struggling with that. Like,

Jo: Yeah. And I if anybody has advice about how to navigate that better, I welcome it. Sort of my way of going through this as if I do the things that let me sleep at night and then hopefully things will work out. Right. Um, if I try to build and sort of try to keep myself out of the noise, it’ll be enough.

Constance: Yes. All right. So number six, I think you should tackle this one though.

Jo: Uh, people may ask you to compromise your integrity. Uh, yes. I don’t know if that is a product of [00:35:00] capitalism or a product of academia specifically. Probably both. , but I, I agree with the author that. As you go up in academe, particularly a, you will find yourself in situations where people ask you to go along with things because their, the way things have always been, even if those things are unequal or unjust and kind of like the author, I.

Have memories of having, being currently, still being an untenured faculty member being held over me. Right? Like this is the thing you should go along with it. This is the thing you shouldn’t necessarily speak out about because you don’t yet have tenure. I have also found. Unfortunately very quickly the Hills that I would die on, , for, for that.

And there were moments, fortunately when I was able to stand my ground kind of again, because I had those relationships and I was fortunate enough to have done a little bit of the power mapping and know who I could go to with, Hey, this thing is happening and I’m not okay with it. What do I do

Constance: [00:36:00] I mean, I could certainly see that. I don’t know that I, again, haven’t really had a lot of this specifically. But I think the general observation is probably true. I really like her, honest advice section Snodgrass says the higher you go in academe, the more of this type of situation you might encounter do?

not confuse flattery with support.

And so I just think in some ways that’s probably just good practical advice, right. That just because, you know, people may give effusive praise that does not mean that they are necessarily supportive of. No your personal or academic, um, agendas. So.

Jo: And this is where maybe you sort of pushing back against the wholly negative lay. It happens in that. Yes. I’ve been put in these situations, but I’ve also. Found some of the best people that I know and academia, and also been, you know, really, moved by the people who would stand with me if something happened, you know?

So yes, you’ll come up against [00:37:00] situations where you feel cornered, but also there are people in these spaces who you can build with, you have to find them.

Constance: Yeah. Yeah. You found some of the best people, you know, in academia.

Jo: I did. Yes, I did Arkansas.

Constance: Yes, indeed. All right. So.

Jo: So, , truth number seven. That’s you

Constance: Hi rights, abuse towards students, sexual, physical, mental, and verbal can be found lurking in the hallways. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing that I think, I mean, for me this point, again, don’t necessarily have any firsthand knowledge or experience, but I know that. To be true of not just academia, but everywhere.

And I think this is why we really have to be careful about deifying, academics and people in general, just the tendency to kind of hero worship, and again, to DFI scholars is really an issue because once we, because then you have people who [00:38:00] don’t want to call that person to task, not even just about like, sort of personal accountability, but legal, moral, like, Hey, you cannot do this thing.

So once you put a person on a pedestal, it becomes. More difficult to get people to, um, have, you know, the honesty and the integrity and the competence to say, this is not okay, this has to be addressed. Even though institutions have leaked, responsibilities, you know, not to even think about sort of the moral or ethical responsibilities.

Yeah. I mean, I’m kind of rambling, but the point is, yes, this happens. It’s unfortunate. We’d love to say that That’s not ever the case at any of our institutions. the reality is we know that. It happens everywhere and that we need to be mindful of that. And it needs to be able to have the, the integrity, to address these issues when we’re confronted with them.

If we’re faced with them, like, so K through 12, [00:39:00] you know, educators have legal obligations. Like you have to, you

know, you’re sort of a mandatory reporter when

Jo: We are too in Texas.

Constance: in Texas.

you are. Okay. That’s great. You know, I wish more states and I don’t know all of the states.

Jo: I wanna sort of underscore what you said about this being sort of the case in most places, because of the way that power works and the way that humans abuse it, unfortunately. But also again, I don’t want to throw this out as a truth that, you know, this is just the way things are because there are also lots of people who are again, willing to stand their ground with you.

, so this is not a, this is the way things are and you should be quiet about it, but this is a reality that is out there. The only way it will change is if many of us are willing to do something about it.

And the last thing I will add about this is that, uh, Academic spaces are structured so much around [00:40:00] this manufactured procarity and scarcity. That creates competition where there should be collaboration. And even worse, it’s like built on this very rigid hierarchy that makes it an environment that is just basically designed.

For exploitation and abuse. So. There needs to be. As many of us as possible pushing to change those structures. Right. So that we have structures and forms of evaluation forms of, uh, work that encourage, relationality and mutual responsibility and care. Rather than uh that cutthroat competition

Constance: yeah. I And I hope I’m that implying that that these uncheck the abuses of, students are occurring.

At least I hope that’s not the case but , I just want to be sort of mindful that yeah. Because of power and power structures that. Those are certainly, um, possibilities and, you know, things that we just need to be cognizant of mindful of ,

Jo: One of the things I [00:41:00] think in terms of it being systemic is that. In academic spaces, despite it being a very rigid power structure, we don’t have any conversations about that or the responsibilities that come with power. And it seems to me that a lot of folks who come to inhabit positions of power, one aren’t accustomed to that or aware of it, or, you know, have any FDD, emotional, or mental resources to manage that power in a way that is responsible.

So that, that definitely seems like the something that. Change. Um, because I do, when that author says that there are, you know, I’ve watched graduate students be reduced to puddles missing your faculty member, be little than with words like that is definitely a thing that, that happens. And sometimes belligerently sometimes because again, people are completely unaware of the effects of their actions and words in ways that are truly damaged.

Constance: Yeah. I mean, but again, to be unaware, to your point about, people coming into power without, being [00:42:00] aware of, their responsibilities, so to be unaware of the effects doesn’t,

um,

Jo: Doesn’t absolve you at all.

Constance: absolve you

Jo: with great power comes. Great responsibility.

Constance: Even Peter Parker, his grandfather knew that or his uncle rather than

a great yes. yes. Um, so actually one thing, if, if we can transition and I don’t know, because I feel like that’s almost like

Jo: yeah. Please, please do transition.

Constance: whole episode to unpack. Well, it’s not even transitioning from Snodgrass, but I think for me, it’s interesting the way that the.

Article title implies this juxtaposition. Like here’s some hard truths and here are a few lies, the things that are quote unquote lies, I think are the things that resonate with me the most and probably you too. Cause we’ve talked about, a lot of these and I think, you know, it’s really important.

And this is to me, you know, we’re sort of the money of the article is right. Here are some things that we are led to believe. And I think this is probably still [00:43:00] true, you don’t have time for yourself that you can’t have a family life, you have to prioritize, the institution, that you have to focus on yourself, you know, you . Can’t socialize or you’re not wanting to engage with other scholars.

So, you know, really this sense of being proprietary about knowledge and also just, again, not having a life right there that the academy is this about rigor. And all that, that means. And so, I don’t know if you want to talk about.

Jo: Yeah, I wanna, I want to say that there’s something I really appreciate about this article, which is that point that we are modeling behaviors that are then acceptable, right. Or we talk a lot about being a pre-tenure, but we are also a tenure track faculty at research, one institutions, you know, um, And I’ve thought a lot about how the things I accept to happen to me are things I’m also condoning to happen to my students.

Sort of one of the reasons I’ve been much more public about being disabled, despite having been quiet about it for most of my graduate school career was that at some point I realized that [00:44:00] because I am making myself do these things, I am also making it okay to force other people to do these things.

Right. So the longer that we. Except this for our own life, the more we are also perpetuating it on other people. So one of the first things about, you know, all of these lies that we can’t have a life that we can’t make time for ourselves, , is that we are just allowing that lifestyle to be the norm. Um, when we know that it is holy and beneficial to everyone and also to the sort of aims of the place that we’re in.

Constance: Yeah. I mean, that’s really ultimately, I think it’s not aggressive point, right. Where she brings it home. She says, the. Now that we lead in grad school is untenable. It’s not sustainable and it shouldn’t be, you know, and we shouldn’t be, encouraging that. And to your point, we want to model the behavior that we want to see for other people.

And that kind of actively resist the pressures of the institution. And, hopefully we’ll help them to advocate, [00:45:00] For themselves, even though they shouldn’t, even though we acknowledge that shouldn’t be the case where I bet you shouldn’t have to if you exist in a space where, the systemic exploitation of graduate students or junior faculty or contingent labor is not a thing, then people shouldn’t have to be advocating for themselves in that way. but still we want to, try to. Model practices that, are sustainable.

And that, don’t have you pulling your hair out and, being a crazy person like I often am. So yeah, I don’t know. I do think I liked, a few lies, cause I think those are still things that people are conditioned to believe are true in graduate school.

Jo: Yeah. So, uh, I, I would like to do. To wrap up my bid on this, I guess, in terms of the, sort of, again, pushing back against the wholly negative, portrait that some folks might, might be . Getting, , in that I agree with professor [00:46:00] Snodgrass. Thank you for writing this article. Um, I agree with the conclusion writes that I am.

I glad that I became an academic. Yes. Um, Honestly still can’t really imagine myself in another job. It’s Oz me every day that my job is to learn continuously and to share that learning and to learn with other people. That is, that is the coolest part of this for me, that I get to be in community with people who are.

Intellectually curious, who are invested in changing the world in ways that I see as more just hopefully, and that I get to work with those people, uh, surviving the institution sometimes is as hard as it is, you know, in most places under capitalism. But like I said, I found some of the best people that I know in these spaces.

And, , you know, we need more of those here modeling again, behaviors where we can do this sustainable.

Constance: Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. I love, doing what I do and working with young people to help shape [00:47:00] their minds and all of that good stuff and help generate knowledge that might, influence a future generation of scholars.

Jo: Fantastic. All right. So thanks for, , unpacking this, uh, article with us and we will be back in another couple of weeks with our next. Yeah.

Constance: Yeah.

Jo: , if anybody, , we’d like to send us topics, people to interview general feedback, you can find us@theunpackthispodcastatgmail.com. Otherwise we will be back to you soon.