Peer Reviewed Hip Hop Album-Say What??? Interview with A.D. Carson

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Constance: [00:00:00] Hello, welcome to unpack this where academic misfits unpack their shit. I am one of your hosts Constance Bailey

Jo: I am Jo Hsu.

Constance: today our first guest of season two is Dr. A.D. Carson, who is joining us. He’s an award winning performance artist and educator from Decatur, Illinois. He received his PhD from Clemson in rhetorics communication and information design. His most recent album I used to love to dream is published by the university of Michigan press and won the award for excellence in the arts and humanities from the university of.

Virginia’s Vice president for research and the pros award from the association of American publishers. And might I also add it’s a very dope album should check it out on, well, maybe not Spotify depending on how you feel about Spotify, but that’s another conversation that we’ll unpack another day, uh, which you can stream or download his music free@http://aydeethegreat.com [00:01:00] and we’ll put it in the show notes. Um, so Dr. Carson is currently assistant professor of hip hop and the global south and the department of music at the university of Virginia. So welcome.

A.D. Carson: Oh, peace. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate, uh, appreciate the invitation.

Jo: Yeah, we’re grateful that you could make the time to join us. So I think you and I finished our degrees roughly around the same time. , and I, I know your name ran across my sort of newsfeed when you were defending your dissertation. I think people say that it’s the first dissertation, that took the form of a hip hop album.

A.D. Carson: Yeah.

Jo: So I guess my first question for you is when you went about doing that, did it start with a research question in the same way that a lot of theses do? Or was it something else that you were pursuing?

A.D. Carson: Yeah. Well, I mean, yes and no. Uh, Like I, I have always written. I mean, you know, [00:02:00] like I write in response to whatever is going on. And so for, I think like, as an undergraduate and during my master’s program, um,, a lot of times what I w I would end up doing double work. So, you know, I read something and then, uh, I, it would usually inspire me to make something, especially if I felt confused about, um, you know, like what I felt about whatever the reading was. And I realized, you know, now that, that. Just, you know, that that’s the way that I process information. And, um, those products, however, were very rarely offered, like in the academic space, as my response to the thing, I would always have to go after I made the thing I made, I would have to write something. Uh, and, And it might, you know, of course it would take a different form. So I was really kind of thinking about how. The, like how the study of hip hop, like in academia it pushes through, or it has pushed through some boundaries imposed by um, certain academic [00:03:00] conventions, but it was, um, or, and then also that, like for me, it’s this transdisciplinary practice, but the connection of those different academic disciplines, like kind of lit to, or it’s not like the connection itself led to those, I guess like what you would call, like, like how it hip hop is pathologized or like black, production is, uh, pathologized usually, kind of existing on the margins of what we call like proper engagement. And, so I framed like five questions around, what it might mean to offer. The responses, you know, those initial responses rather than some kind of translation of them. And so those questions, uh, were, uh, what are the rules of hip hop performance and knowledge production, and what types of ideological work is being done by scholarly engagements with hip hop and hip hop performance, um, to how can hip hop performance resist, um, and, or push beyond the limits set upon it by academic. [00:04:00] Uh, The third one was how do we more effectively approach hip hop in academia in a manner that speaks through, um, it’s forms rather than re re and scribing the oppression, uh, that the forum seeks to subvert the fourth was how do we responsibly deal with issues of access to academic spaces for producers of cultural products like rap music or lyrics. And then the last question. Uh, Was how to academic institutions, uh, where the lives of famous artists like, like Jay Z or NAS are studied, uh, how do they consider, uh, the formal education status of aspiring hip hop artists? Um,, or those who aren’t as well known seeing that, you know, like Jay Z and NAS, uh, you know, dropped out of high school before they wrap their professional rap careers began. And so they would, um, likely not, uh, qualify to study or teach at those universities

Jo: yeah, I love that in that you’re speaking in the form rather than just looking at it as the object of [00:05:00] study. Right. , so my next question sort of comes from a selfish place in that my. Dissertation in sort of a resonant strand, took the form of storytelling in thinking through storytelling as also, you know, a form through which you could conduct criticism rather than just object. And I remember at my defense, very distinctly my committee members saying to each other, did you feel like this was a very hard part to critique? Like we didn’t have the vocabulary for. Talking about it because used to criticizing arguments in academic settings. So at the time, I don’t even know if that was like a criticism or just an observation, but, , something that I encounter a lot is that academics don’t know how to evaluate this genre when it comes desk.

Right. So I’m interested in how you established a peer review process for your 2020 album. I used to love to dream was hoping you’d speak more about.

A.D. Carson: yeah, that was, and you know, it was actually something that was developed with the folks [00:06:00] from the university of Michigan. And, uh, I was, uh, Lauren and Sarah Cohen. And the conversation started with me and Lauren, uh, initially just kind of talking about. the music and talking about what, like the kind of thing that I wanted to do, because, you know, I can say that I had conversations with folks at academic presses that were not pan, like, they were like difficult conversations, you know, like the kind of stuff. well, really the kind of stuff that you would expect, what happened when you, you know, when folks like call you up and they say, well, we’d be interested in publishing some of your rap music. Um, and I

hated that, you know, like it was, it was difficult to try to trudge through. And even, you know, like there were like awkward moments in like sort of the mentoring space where I know that people were really trying to help me. And I know that they were looking out for me, but like the kinds of feedback that I got really felt like they didn’t understand. Like the aims or the goal of the [00:07:00] work that I was trying to do. And so, we, we look at the, the peer review questions that university of Michigan already asks, and then we kind of like sat down and asked what would be helpful, what would be helpful feedback to get on this project that could make it. And so that was before we even, you know, that was before we decided that we would want to do it. You know, we just like looked at the questions and, uh, and thought about what, what the questions would be. And then when we felt good about those questions, you know, we, we sent them out and the reviewers, I mean, I was surprised because the reviewers, it felt like maybe like one of the first times it felt like folks had really engaged with what I gave them.

Like what, not just like what I’d given them. Also, they were responding to the questions and the arguments and the issues being raised, not just by what the reps are saying, but by the composition of the entire document, you know, like the way that the music is made, like what, I’m, what I’m re [00:08:00] mixing, how I’m intervening in the narrative that might exist there.

And that, I mean, honestly, like I was surprised, but it felt good. I mean, you know, like it’s amazing to feel seen or heard when, you know, Well, when, you know, you’ve had the experience that I’ve had, that even while folks are talking about the work, it always leaves something to be desired because what they’re talking about is the shiny veneer of the form. And not really any of the content or the arguments. They’re not, they’re not engaging at all with what you’re saying or, why you’re saying it the way you. And that was different in the, in, in this process with, I used to love to dream with the reviewers. I don’t know if I’d say that for, you know, like, the way that it has been received more broadly. But that’s also because I haven’t had as much of an opportunity with this project to travel with it, into, you know, like perform and really deeply engaged with.

Jo: Did you, did you have a say in who those reviewers were, do you have a sense of where they found.[00:09:00]

A.D. Carson: No. I mean, there was like, ], I think that there was a list of people, uh, that they asked who I might add to whoever they, they would be considering. , But no, I don’t, I have no clue, you know, who they were. Um, but you know, I mean, I’m, I’m glad. Um, I’m really glad whoever they were.

And also like, I mean, I’m in the middle of the process right now. I have a new project with them and, um, and you know, the, the thing, like I know I wasn’t tripping. Like the thing that I feared, uh, definitely happened this time around where one of the reviews, it felt to me like the person absolutely did not hear anything that I did. And they were asking for, they were asking for things that were very clearly like present in the project and. So like in my response to, you know, these current reviews, I’m writing back, like I’m upset. It’s like really, like, I mean, I’m triggered because it’s like, well, what, like, what did you listen to?

If these

are the questions you had after you listened to it?[00:10:00] And so it’s definitely not a given and, you know, like I left that to I’m like, yo, like, this is somebody who. Like according to whatever I’m supposed to know, like they’re supposed to know something about what I’m doing and they clearly don’t. Yeah, so that’s been rough. Like it took me a really long time to write the response to the reviewers because I was just so offended.

Jo: Yeah, for sure. Have you, have you heard back from your response yet?

A.D. Carson: Oh yeah. It’s going forward. Like

yeah, no.

Constance: So can. For just a second, just as a point of clarification for our vast audience. Right? So, so even though we have unpacked academic genres, we have yet to really, which I actually think we should, because I’m in the process of trying to work with the press and talk about the book proposal. finished their book proposal.

So we’re. So this process that A.D. Is describing is really one of negotiation. You know, one, you have to find a press that sort of is publishing in your field or in this case, doing innovative things and [00:11:00] really willing to work with scholars. And then you send it out for review and.

In most cases, other academics or experts in the field, and then you can respond to the review. So, so there’s a complex process of negotiation and some tedium and some other stuff that Jo and I might unpack at some other time, but just so, so that you all are like, what the hell is going on here, but, you know, essentially it sounds like you got some reviews that didn’t have anything to do with the actual project, but more maybe that person’s ideological stance or something, because it seems like they didn’t engage with the content of the material is what I’m hearing.

A.D. Carson: Yeah, not only did they not engage with the material, like they had things to say about me personally, it was like this ad hominem thing. And So you know, it was wild, but then I’m like, oh yeah, like it makes sense that folks probably feel this way. And those folks, are. In these fields or adjacent fields, and they’re pissed off at the idea of, this practice being offered as the scholarly output, I mean, yeah, it makes sense [00:12:00] that people would feel, you know, like ways about this now. I mean, I don’t ever think that because somebody is doing something in a, lane that I am not in that like, I somehow need to, like police that.

Jo: So my feeling about that for academics is that. We are told our job is to make our lane right. And to do something that is particular to us. And I completely am baffled when academics reaction is how come you’re not in my lane, because you would also be offended if I were in your lane. Right. So it feels like this sort of, no win situation.

A.D. Carson: Yeah, we’re not doing the same thing. I’m not claiming to do the thing that you’re doing. And you’re upset that somehow I’m doing this thing that you think I should be doing, like you. And I clearly said that’s not what I’m trying to do, but. I’m never saying that I’m doing something nobody’s ever done before, you know, like there’s a, a long history and legacy of MCs who [00:13:00] have provided us with all kinds of, ways to think about the world. And so even if they aren’t, but like, I mean, some of them are like in the academy and many of them aren’t, but yeah, there’s nothing new happening.

Jo: I think also what’s difficult about that response from folks who supposedly study resonant topics is because in theory, you’ve written about these ideas and in theory, you’re supposed to grasp them. And what I’m hearing from your criticism is that you don’t.

A.D. Carson: Yes, that’s it. This is somebody who’s teaching, um, other people. And those people feel that that person that’s teaching them as an expert.

Jo: Yeah. So my last — Constance am I cutting you off?

Constance: Well, I was just going to say, if anybody knows, know how this works, Jo asked the substantive questions and I asked the ratchet question. So I was going to say that Jo was going to ask another scholarly question. I was going to ask random shit. So no, take it away

Jo: yeah, one more [00:14:00] scholarly question, and then we can go to conferences, fun questions. So last

one, , I know that you’re now housed in a music department, I believe is, which is different than the sort of rhetoric programs that were raised in. And I’m wondering if you had to negotiate your own sort of assessment process when you took this position.

A.D. Carson: Yeah. Well, we’re still talking about that with the department because this department I think is like maybe like less traditional and you know, like, so half of the folks in our department are like critical and comparative studies and then the other is. Um, I computer composing technologies like composers, and I guess like I’m somewhere in between the two. There are no rubrics that I have to invent in order to say how my work speaks to either side of what the department that I’m in is doing. But again, like, you know, we have to consider hip hop as a transdisciplinary, Methodological practice. Whenever we’re thinking about that as well, because like music departments, regardless of how untraditional they are, I don’t know [00:15:00] if they’re the place. I don’t know if they are the place where we go to evaluate hip hop music.

Actually, I’m pretty sure it’s not, um, you know, like there’s, there’s nobody like there’s no, there’s no music department in this country where I’m like, uh, I’m, I’m waiting. Um, In anticipation of their evaluation of my latest project, you know, like to say, whether I’m good or not, you know, and, and that’s just, you know, being honest about it. And, and I would assume that would be the same for anyone, even if like, you know, like, even if it’s me, I don’t imagine that my, that, that my opinion holds a whole lot of weight with other people who make rap music necessarily. Um, Because you know, why I mean, like I’m over here at UVA, just kind of like doing this. And, you know, like what, you know, like what you eat don’t make me shit. Right? Like that’s not even like a real thing. So, the process then, like thinking about tenure is going to be one still kind of like of [00:16:00] negotiation and understanding and, uh, the less flexible they are and the less understanding they are, uh, the more likely it is that, you know, I won’t, I won’t be.

Jo: Hmm. To be transparent, the reason I’m at, asked this question both about the assessment process and also the peer review process is because the fact that you hadn’t negotiated a peer review process made me think about. What sort of structures do we build? Um, particularly so that you’re not just the first person who created

uh, dissertation that took the form of a hip hop album, but so that other people have a structure in place right.

When they, when they choose to do that thing. So, so I appreciate that. That’s something you’re, you know, thinking through and

A.D. Carson: Yeah. And that’s something that, you know, I’m talking about, you know, that, that I’m interested in here at the university, not just for other professors, but really thinking about that for incoming, uh, undergraduate students. What does it look like for a person? I mean, again, like for the, the 16 or 17 year old, uh, NAS [00:17:00] or Jay

Z or Rhapsody who says that I still want to make music, but I also want to go to a university And then that be the thing that we look at to say, damn, she, she should be on our campus and in our classes. And those questions like with the university of Michigan, they’re using those questions to look at, to look at other kinds of projects.

Jo: Oh, hell yeah, that’s awesome. Uh, Constance, since I’ve

I’ve

asked the, boring scholarly questions, it’s your turn.

Constance: Yes. So, um, that backtrack. So before I gave the formal introduction, I had actually intended to, give context on, how I came, how, and sort of why the ask.

Right? So, people will say like, man, you know everybody, and it’s not that, but it’s like, my rejection game is like straight. Like I’m just going to shoot my academic side and whoever, and you just got to tell me no. So if, if I, you know, if I get wind a Facebook friend has a new project.

I’m like, oh, let me, [00:18:00] let me ask this person. But I did want to say that, I first met A.D. At a mutual friend’s wedding, shout out to Megan and Craig we’ll tag them so they can listen to this episode. But, I felt bad because, you know, if any of you have ever gone to a Catholic wedding, there’s a lot of standing.

And so he was sitting behind me and I kept, like I say, man, I’m blocking his view, you know? Stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down. And then Megan said, oh, you should listen to A.D.’S stuff. He’s really, you know, really dope artists, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, from that, you know, from that time I started following your career.

So it’s, this trajectory has been really exciting. Um, so, you know, congrats. Uh, and I, and I just see it only going up from here.

A.D. Carson: I appreciate that.

Constance: Yeah. I saw the one to tell that story just because one, it was of kind of funny, but two people always ask me, how do you know, you know, such and such.

And like, I don’t really know that person I just asked and you know, may say yes or no. So, um, so this is kind of a funny question, but not really. Um, I was thinking about brown sugar [00:19:00] even while I have some serious criticisms of that movie, it, has a fond place in my heart. And so, uh, the question that’s Sanaa Lathan them always ask her guests, like when did you fall in love with hip hop?

You know, it was, uh, for her book for her single authored monograph or whatever. Um, so I’m wondering, when did you fall in love with.

A.D. Carson: Yeah. Well, you know, I think that, I think that I probably inherited it, you know, like the love. I had an older cousin who I thought was like the coolest dude in the world. And, um, I mean he used to do everything. He would draw, he would write poems, he, uh, It was athletic. Um,

and like I should just say that my family is like, just kind of like a musical family anyhow. Um, and my mom loved poetry. And so like the poetry thing was there that was like, probably like, you know, fourth grade, you know, I was like writing down all like the rhyming poems from the anthologies. [00:20:00] Um, but my cousin Tony was, was, uh, was somebody who I think, I just thought he was cool, you know? And, um, He listened to like the music that he listened to was like the kind of music that I would want to listen to. And then the same thing, you know, like with an older brother, um, and you know, when minister society came out, it was maybe around that same time he was murdered. Tony was, and, um, I don’t know if like, I like thought that like somehow, like writing wraps, like is somehow like to continue his legacy. I don’t think that that was the way that I thought about it as just like me sort of like retroactively, like sort of fitting a story over it. Like my brothers in not like we would, we would rap against each other.

Like we had like our little crews and everything, but like, it all, like, anytime that question, like specifically like. What made, uh, like What made me so passionate about it? It was it’s really, it feels like it’s a way to remember my family, you know, it just feels like that’s, that’s [00:21:00] the thing, like where, I mean, like we play ball and, and, you know, like again, like folks like to draw and all of these other things, but like the music was the thing that I felt like, like rhyme writing was something that I felt good at.

And it was the way that I. Processed everything that was going on. So even when I wasn’t sharing rhymes with people, uh, I was writing them after, or, you know, during anything that was going on. Um, and so like in school, I think that I, you know, like I, I continued writing poetry and at home I continue writing raps.

And then at some point they just kind of blended, you know, like probably around the time when people start beating on the tables, you know, at lunch and, you know, like folks start ramen against each other. I’m like, oh, I can do that. And I think I’m better than other people at it.

Constance: Yeah, no, that’s, I mean, that’s a great response. I think, you know, even this, well, it’s not my current project, but even with this extra project that, uh, you know, Jo and I often find ourselves immersed in projects that enable our procrastination or [00:22:00] something. So, so I’m going to pitch to an editor at like, An edited collection about D you know, black dating practices in the digital age.

But I want to frame it with Proverbs because I said something like you can’t, don’t put all your eggs in one basket. And it was like a random Facebook musing. And I was like, you know, my grandma used to always say, don’t take sand to the beach, or she used to blah, blah, blah. You know, it’s so like, the way that I understand the world is through like proverbial wisdom.

That was imparted to me by my grandmother. I think that’d be a really dope project. Now, the editor might say a whole other thing, but you know, it is a way to connect. One, some sort of current, uh, I don’t know if that’s actually research interest, but to recurrent, thoughts that I have with my history, but also sort of with this other intellectual engagement.

So, I mean, that makes sense that, you know, even while you’re retroactively imposing meaning on that, I mean, it seems like that response seems really appropriate. So, so there’s a new [00:23:00] album slash scholarly project. I don’t know how we talk about that, but you know, what can you tell us in terms of, you know, thematic content or preview?

Like what can you tell us about the new project

A.D. Carson: which one the, I used to love to dream or the one after that.

Constance: No, the one after.

A.D. Carson: Okay. Yeah. So this new thing, actually it relates, you know, like I was saying that like, or I didn’t say, but I was thinking while you were talking that, um, with, I used to love to dream, you know, like. You know, like there are like these points where, you know, I talk about like what my grandma told me, you know?

And, um, and also like, you know, conversations with friends and or family, but then thinking about like, you know, like I used to love to dream is kind of like, it’s thinking about Decatur, like some of this, like, um, socio-political, um, you know, an economic, um, I don’t know, like sort of. That’s like muck that, you know, we have to like try to trudge through a two. And then [00:24:00] also the fact that folks imagine like the Midwest, like outside of Chicago, as like folks who don’t look like me and my family and don’t sound like me and my family and even a place like Decatur, you know, like with the documentary that I use to talk about it, uh, it doesn’t sound like us. And when you look at it, it don’t look like us. And it’s like, well, where are we at? Like this, this is filmed a block away from my grandma’s. And this is like something that someone might have and say, oh, this is what Decatur Illinois is like. And so after, after I’d released, I used to love to dream. And I was sitting here during the pandemic. Let’s see. At the beginning of that year, my, my, my brother and I, uh, see me, my brother in two of my cousins and one of my nephews, we all went down to a funeral in Southern Illinois. My cousin Jamal had passed away suddenly like on the first day of, uh, I want to say, I think it was 2020. And, uh, so it was me, my brother, Chris, my cousin, Devin cousin, ed, my nephew, um, Kai. [00:25:00] And we just go down to like our grandparents. Like after the funeral, we go to the land and it’s like, you know, it’s overcast, uh, it’s rain. And it’s like flooding. And we try to drive through this flooded town and, you know, like they got these really nice cars, you know, it is a military dude. Chris works as an engineering railroad dude. So, uh, you know, like we get out of the car and we just like start looking around, at this point, Devin he worked at one of the factories in Decatur. And, um, you know, I hadn’t seen them in a while and I thought, well, I’m gonna go home and I’m going to record this. Like, I want to get this documentary.

And then just like, kind of show home. This is like, before the pandemic, like, like starts though. And so I get home, I start teaching and I tell them, I’ll be back in a couple of weeks. I got the album, but they haven’t heard it yet because, you know, I want to surprise people in, you know, like recorded. So I don’t know, April comes around. And they’re saying like, we’re not going to be able to like, travel or do anything. and then, um, I get a call from Chris and he tells me that, Devin has been murdered [00:26:00] again, you know, like this is a place. I mean, I guess I should just say that , things like this happen a lot and, you know, places like Decatur and, um, When we were outside of the car, I had like recorded us, standing out here, sort of talking or whatever.

I mean, I didn’t think anything about that, but like now I can’t leave. I’m talking to my brother trying to get updates. I’m like, I should jump in the car and like go back home. But also, I don’t know anything about this virus to spread. And, um, I started having panic attacks. I don’t know that I’m having panic attacks.

I think that I’m having a hard. Uh, and so I can’t sleep. My chest is hurting, you know, like all of this other stuff. And so I try to write my way through it

And it’s not working. Um, I can’t read my way through it because like almost all of the stuff that I read has to do with like black life, black death, you know, like all of these, you know, these things that just like, keep me thinking about. Home while not at home and also while I’m here alone in, in Charlottesville.[00:27:00] Uh, and so I still keep trying to write through it. I go see the doctor, and, realize that like, it’s like this anxiety thing I’m talking to a therapist regularly. I try to get out walk, you know, all of these, these different things. And somewhere in there, like somewhere within all of them, I wrote these songs. I didn’t know that I had the song. Like, I, it took me awhile to realize that I had like the project

and that the project was, you know, like, well, it was what it was. And so, initially I thought that I wanted to call it something about like breadth, something about like,, um, like something, you know, beyond breadth and, uh, lately. I started editing it and like trying to like, I mean, you know, just kind of like the realization of what it, what it really was that, you know, that I was working with, um, like this, yeah. This album is, uh, is talking to ghosts and, um, you know, it’s the, the conversations, um, with, through [00:28:00] and about what was going on over an 18 month stretch. You know, like that initial lockdown. And, um, and it was like, maybe even in a certain way, like the internal version of what I was trying to do with talking to ghosts, like, you know, like where you think that like, like you’re out here, like giving advice and like, you’re not saying the thing that like, whatever is spinning in your head, like, you know, like that you’re supposed to be doing or what you need to do. Uh, and so talking to those felt like that it was like the inward, response that the previous thing, really didn’t get to. And it was really like me telling myself to breathe.

Constance: Wow. If people could see us, I’m quite literally pulling. My red hair, because that is my response to anxiety. Um, yeah, that, I mean, that, that’s, It’s really, interesting that you say that, I knew the project title.

I think that you had kind of dropped that a while ago. Um, but I was talking to a friend about an [00:29:00] unkindness of ghosts, which is a great black specter. Fiction text by a river Solomon and thinking about developing a ghost class. Of course, everybody knows that I’m not going to teach a new class until the manuscript is finished.

But in theory, whenever I do a, you know, I hopefully talking to ghost will have dropped. I can, I can teach that as text. You know, we’ll, we can talk about it as form and content and. Where I was going with that though, is that the potential for our projects to be liberatory? And I think that is the thing that really excites me about your research.

Jo’s research other people doing innovative things, and that’s one of the reasons that we really wanted to have you on the other reason. And this will be kind of the last question, um, other than like, you know, how can people find you is that it’s, it’s black history month and it’s

it’s really interesting, right?

Because. You know, while we acknowledge that yes. You know, black history is American history. Yes. We should acknowledge it at all. All throughout the year. I mean, I had a really interesting conversation with [00:30:00] a friend the other day who was sort of, questioning that idea. Like, why are we identifying this?

One month, you know, it should be, taught throughout the year. And I said, well, you know, two things can be true at the same time. Right. You know, and that here’s why it’s important, but that was sort of my take on it. Um, but I also was like, Jo, we need to have a black guest because it’s black history.

Mind you, we don’t know when we’ll edit this. We, it might come out in poetry month or something, you know, we have no clue, but I, you know, I was wondering if you could speak to, either Carter, G Woodson, who I think is our fraternity brother, maybe, or the legacy

of black history month. I have bad, bad history with Cuba, but that’s, you.

A.D. Carson: Okay. Well, I appreciate that. , yeah, I feel the crunch about black history month, you know, like, uh, I got mad events this, this month,, zoom is about to be filled up. I got a thing tomorrow. And I’ve talked to my students about it all the time, this really long legacy of, Negro achievement week and 26, and then from 76 forward, you know, like dealing with, black history month. But then like how some of this conflation will have people believing that, you know, [00:31:00] Phyllis Wheatley and, Langston Hughes or contemporaries, you know, and that’s just problematic. And I think that it’s important. I guess what I was going to say, like the like in the lyric, this is not on the album, but it’s on like the, the dissertation is that they set my people at did.

I said it must be a joke. Cause if that’s really the truth, that means I’m talking to ghosts and I ain’t above believing in what people can’t see or what people don’t see, but I ain’t, but I can’t believe in it if it don’t believe it. And I think that, like, this is kinda how I feel about ancestors, like, sort of just like always being around, always being present and always like speaking their words, saying their names, invoking their legacies. And I mean that like in the folks who are, like those who are famous, like the folks that folks are, speaking about during this month, but also, you know, like my grandmothers, my cousins, friends, folks who are locked up, uh, you know, people whose voices are very often not included in these conversations in these rooms where we work. Um, and then making sure that folks. Engage with what they [00:32:00] say. And sometimes the way that you get them to engage in what those folks are saying is by quoting those folks. And then when people quote you they’re poking them. Um, and so I think that, you know, like maybe that’s, that’s, a way that we might be able to, intervene. Uh, in, you.

know, like both of those things that are true at the same time, you know, like on the one hand, uh, going out, you know, or accepting an invitation, you know, to come out and speak during black history month. Um, but then, you know, like, the remarks that we give, you know, it’s not just like these sort of exceptional, UN uncovered or unmarried stories that, you know, like, uh, you know, like of exceptional, you know, like Negronis, but, uh, also. You know, like the folks who are like back home in places like Decatur, uh, so that whenever folks take those words and then they move forward with them, like they’re carrying those people out, you know, from March, April, may, you know, in the rest of the months. I, I felt differently in different months, you know, like, Um, and you know, in different years, I mean, and so this year, I think I feel a little bit differently, but it’s [00:33:00] probably like a problem. I’m sure that I feel this way because I’m tired. Like it’s not, you know, like anything against black history month, it’s just like exhaustion. And like we’re out here acting like we ain’t in a pandemic and having to do like full-time jobs while also publishing and like living lives and like trying to be human. Uh, and that’s difficult.

Constance: Oh, yeah, we’ve been on that soap box already.

A.D. Carson: Yeah.

Constance: Yeah. I think I had a speaking engagement, with my sorority sisters on Monday evening and I was really trying to be genuine and say, you know, I’m here for you. You can reach out to me, but not this month. It’s exhausted me and black and February. So, so don’t ask me this month because I cannot, so yeah, I did it.

So Jo and I usually go back and forth, but this time we’ve kind of set it up a little differently, but before we let you go at this one, Jo, did you have any other follow-up or any, anything?

Jo: No, I’m good. I really appreciate your time A.D.. [00:34:00] And for being here, I’m really glad we got this chance to interact.

A.D. Carson: likewise. Thank you.

Constance: Yeah. Okay. Well, awesome. Um, tell people, w we will attempt to cobble together some show notes, Jo and I are kind of making this up as we go along, but, tell people where they can find you on the social medias in

A.D. Carson: Oh, yeah, if you go, uh, it’s aydeethegreat.com like A Y D E E the great, uh, and I’m at aydeethegreat everywhere. So, uh, you can find me there and, you know, I’ll be out there lying on the internet.

Constance: Awesome. Jo, are you, are you doing the closing?

Jo: Okay, I’ll do the closeout. So thank you for listening to us and joining us on this, debut guest episode for season two, and you can find at theunpackthispodcast@gmail.com and we will catch you next time.