S1E2: We Should Be Writing

Welcome to unpack this podcast by and for academic misfits, where we unpack all things, academic and non, I am one of your hosts, Jo Hsu. Hsu And.

I am Constance Bailey. The other part of this dynamic duo.

So this week our episode is titled “we should be writing,” which is a mantra that probably follows us everywhere. And we’ll be discussing writing, journals, publications, the sort of thing that haunts a lot of, at least our academic careers, constance. I’ll let you introduce why we’re talking about this.

So for most academics and probably non-academics as well . You heard the expression publish or perish, which gives people a sense, well, gives me a sense of impending doom. other junior faculty as well. I think we alluded to the research designations a little bit last week, so this idea of publishing or perishing means that if you’re at a research institution or R 1 and probably an R2, you are expected,

in most disciplines, because there are some disciplinary differences for sure. sciences are probably very different from the humanities and social sciences, but as humanity scholars, Jo and I have to produce a full length, sometimes ,monograph manuscript, Basically we got to write a book that will put you on the path towards tenure.

It’s not the only part of the process. academics are generally led to believe that your appointments are 40% based on your research. I.E. Getting the book done, 40% based on teaching and 20% service. So 40/ 40/ 20 might be something that you’ve heard. In my experience, and this is just anecdotal, but I think it’s probably 90% research.

I think.

That means to clarify that is for the research one designation that we were talking about last time.

our experiences are particular to this, this particular type of institution.

Yes, thank you for clarifying. But yeah, the expectation, I think even though we care deeply about our students and try to do a great job teaching, I think we do a fabulous job teaching if I must say so myself, I do think that the expectation at R ones is that you are publishing in an academic press.

I guess the question that I would then throw back to you, Jo, is what is peer reviewed? People hear that term a lot. do we mean by that? And what does it mean to have publications that aren’t refereed publications.

Sure. One of the exciting things about this job for me is the scholarship. And that is that you get to have conversations at the forefront of the development of your field. So we’re here, presumably because we care about the conversations happening in these areas that we study. And as researchers, we get to Polish and hopefully nudge those conversations in directions that we think are important or interesting.

And academic journals are places where we have those conversations and they are peer reviewed, or at least, the ones that often count for your CV, her peer reviewed, which means that somebody who is also an expert in your field, usually two reviewers will receive your manuscript without your name on it.

And they will read it and determine whether or not. This is something that, you know, meets scholarly expectations. They might offer suggestions for revisions. There are good things and bad things to this. one of the things that is important, one of the things I love about peer review is. Writing can be a lonely and isolating process.

And actually when you get good feedback, you’re writing in community, you’re getting somebody else. Who’s also interested in invested in these things, telling you, where they think these ideas are going, where other sources they think you might find a useful for the argument you’re trying to make.

Sometimes it’s just encouragement about the thing you’re trying to say. Where this is limiting is that this is an inherently conservative process, right? Usually, uh, especially if you’re young in the field, your work as a junior scholar will get sent to senior scholars, which. Your ideas as somebody who is coming in here, new are, are going to be sent to somebody who’s been here for a long time.

And that person has been here for a long time is going to assess whether or not your new ideas, meet their expectations for what this conversation will be. So in a perfect world, everybody is open and into engaging new ideas and exploring new directions. But in the imperfect world that we’re in, that is not.

Always the case. So it’s this fraught process that has a good idea underneath it, but oftentimes, uh, has harmful implications in application.

Yeah, that’s a good point. I want to, I guess, speak to peer review before I forget this thought, because I’m notorious for that. So it’s really interesting that you mentioned, and I, and this is I think a truism, but I feel like in some cases I’ve been the exception more so than the rule.

So generally speaking, peer review, senior scholars in the field are vetting your work and you could potentially get exposure, but there is a sense of gatekeeping. that tends to be true. I think because a couple of my sub fields are still fairly specialized so the senior scholars in the field are either like too big to be bothered they’re too busy.

Or whatever reason they have said, they can’t participate in the peer review process or aren’t for that particular academic year or whatever the case may be. So I have felt particularly vulnerable as a junior faculty because I have felt I’ve done.

I think two or maybe three times I’ve been asked to, to peer review. Most of the time, I don’t know if three is enough to have most, two out of three of the times I have risen to the occasion. I have rose have risen. know. neither of us are grammarians. We’ll have to figure that out, but

I think.

I have risen to the occasion and.

And it was fine. I was glad to be able to give, this scholar, some feedback and something formative to build on. I did feel because I am teaching and trying to write myself and also have a family. felt a little overburdened and I have to say, and this is something.

I guess this is an academic skeleton in the closet. And, if this faculty member listens to this podcast, when we blow up Jo, which is inevitable, I am so, so sorry. I completely dropped the ball. There was a review that I agreed to do in the spring. And it was on an article that I think was on ethnic humor as it was a journal that, that dealt with studies. And one of my areas is African-American comedy and humor. And my daughter was two and a half hours away in a treatment facility. I was commuting back and forth to try to see her. I was dealing with some issues myself.

So I was struggling with that. And so I. You know, my own personal demands, academic demands, and also the article ended up being a laborious read. I have to say that. You know, sometimes in my writing, listen, I’ve been editing today and I was reading something that was a laborious read. So there was no judgment, right.

At least in that way. in terms of trying to figure out, like I was raised like Southern black people. It’s like, if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. And so I was working on that reader’s report. I had a good friend asked me two or three months later. Are you still working?

Because they felt so bad for me. I had been laboring on how to frame, I wasn’t sure that I could say revise and resubmit, and maybe this is something you can actually speak to in terms of categories in talking about journal articles, because never in my academic life did I think I would get something accepted with no revisions, but I only had copy edits for a piece that’s forthcoming.

So, yeah.

Yeah

but I probably had worked on that thing 10 years. Um, so yeah I think this idea of the R and R, what are the categories we’ve got revise and resubmit. You’ve got an outright rejection and that is, I think sometimes a part that comes with the territory where.

Yeah, so, okay. You submit an essay to a journal. This is oftentimes something , especially if you’re trying to get a research position after graduate school. To do toward the end of your graduate career, you’ll submit your essay to a journal that editor will usually send it out to two reviewers and they’ll get that record back recommendations.

Those reviewers might say, except they might say, except with minor revisions, they might say re. Revise and resubmit, which is you’re not yet in the journal, but if you make these revisions, you have a pretty good shot. As long as you follow the things that we suggested. And then there’s an outright rejection, which happens because, you know, sometimes because the piece is not a good fit sometimes because you wound up with reviewers who weren’t a good fit for you, but it is part of an academic career and everyone’s experience.

Um, I wanna, I wanna speak a little bit to what causes was talking about in terms of reviewing essays. Uh, Having, you know, in, in the past few years of this career being increasingly on that side of the desk, right. Being the reviewer who gets the essays, uh, the range of essays that I get it, I find really interesting.

So for the most part, you know, Situated pretty firmly in my field of rhetoric and composition. I get essays that have to do with the queerness Asian-American rhetorics, um, sometimes writing studies, but I do remember getting an essay from a literary journal once because I once wrote an essay about a particular literary figure. And, and and certainly that had, must have Googled how few people in the world have written about this person, because I got, I got an ask to, to, to re review for this journal. And in that case, you know, I had to, I had to sit with the, the essay that he sent for a while and be like, okay, even though this isn’t my field of expertise, do I know enough about what he’s talking about to feel confident, offering recommendations for the author?

, and so I’ve tried to approach the process of reviewing. And an important, , part of the job that we do, particularly since coming up into the field, we often struggle with trying to make our work legible, to say folks who might adhere to more conservative views of the field.

So. Having been folks who’ve been pushing for change. It helps too to be able to be that person on the other side of the desk and to receive those manuscripts and to be able to give feedback, , to authors who are also trying to, , move these conversations in the directions that you see as most productive.

So, I see that as an important part of this job, but also one that is, challenging to do perfectly, I guess, sometimes, one as concept of saying, particularly for those of us who do, areas of study that are more structurally marginalized, there are very few. Which means that we’re getting bombarded with the, the only Maddie’s games in, in those areas, right?

Because there’s only the same two or three people who do this particular area of study. And a lot of us are more junior because a lot of these fields are only recently being allowed in to academic conversations. So there’s the fact that, the bulk of our work is still trying to get tenure. The fact that.

We have to be careful what we say in terms of getting feedback to people who might be senior, and who might be able to identify who we are. And yeah, navigating the, I guess politics of that is, is also a challenge. I think at its best academic publishing is. Fostering conversations about how we move the field forward.

, but that is not necessarily the model, , everywhere. I will say that one of the journals that I’m on the editorial board for. I joined because the point of the journal, one of the major goals of the journal was to shift the way this practice has done. And one of the cool things about it is that, , for authors who want it, when they get their feedback, we offer connecting them with a mentor in the field.

And that’s not to say that the author has to be a junior person, uh, but that we connect them wherever they are in their career with somebody else. Who’s thinking about similar things, uh, with whom to talk about moving your ideas forward.

, and I think that that’s. A model of doing this work that is transparent about what we’re asking of the authors, why we’re asking those things and also, , particularly helpful for those who are newer in the field to learn, you know, what is this genre that I’m trying to invent as I write and how do I participate in it?

, so I love that about this journal, but I also know. That is a super labor-intensive way to do a article publication. And we’re asking a lot of labor for those who volunteer to be mentors for us. So again, it’s, you know, the very imperfect part of this world that we’re in, where there are fantastic changes to be made, but also all of those changes requires, you know, tremendous amounts of labor from people who do not have the time or the energy.

And who also aren’t compensated for it. And that’s no small thing, right. In terms of scholars, we don’t make unless you’re on an endowed chair or at a particularly prosperous institution we don’t have by and large don’t have six-figure salaries.

And so it is that time that you are supposed to be working on your own scholarship or contributing to your own But I do think to your point, mentoring is so important that’s the thing I like about the peer review process, even though it’s supposed to be anonymous as you alluded to, there’s something that sometimes gets lost in translation where people don’t remove the net.

Like I have seen from a reviewer or I never said anything when I see them at academic conferences. I respect her work tremendously thankfully she didn’t say horrible things but still that would have been super super So I always have a great deal of trepidation when I am doing reviews because I’m like, let me make sure this is anonymous.

Sent back with you.

Yes. Now and I never remember how to do it. So I’m always Googling and triple checking like that. I remember the metadata because I know that the editors may be busy, so they may not remember to do that whatever, but yeah, so.

That’s interesting though, because I know the author is supposed to be anonymous when the viewer viewers reading the piece, but I have had reviewer assign their reviews, which I’ve actually really loved, especially if they’re senior folks in the field, I’ve been able to that one of the scholars who, who signed.

The review for my first ever publication. I found her at a conference and was like, I really appreciate all the feedback you gave me. And, uh, all the enthusiasm you, you provided for my ideas. So it was not only really encouraging to hear that from a scholar I admired, but also gave me a way to talk to that scholar at a conference.

Whereas otherwise I would have just been like, hi, I think you’re cool.

Well that’s awesome. I have not had that experience and I would have loved to, especially this most recent piece where there weren’t any substantive changes. I was like, oh my gosh, I’m so flattered. Who wrote this nice awesome

Yeah.

no clue. I probably would have sent them a candle or something weird, and I would’ve been awkward at the conference so it, might’ve worked out for the best, but, what I will say about journals and I think this is what’s intimidating and also why academics or academia gets accused of elitism, I think, is that because we are still by and large privileging.

Print and the written word. And there is an expense and a labor involved in the publishing of physical journals, which some journals for budget reasons are going to completely digital. But I do think, I see some trends to your earlier point where we’re seeing some really revolutionary trends some of these academic sub fields that, you know, 20 years ago, you couldn’t even entertain the thought of a podcast being considered an intellectual contribution and being listed on your CV.

But I did want to go back to. This is from like an hour ago, but you mentioned a CV. And so I was going to ask you, in case there is a listener are hoards, but in case there is a listener who does not know what a CV is could you, what’s a CV. And what does it mean to have a

Yeah.

on that?

I mean, if I’m going to give this snobby answer, it’s Latin for course of life. Right. Which I actually, I just liked that fact. Um, even though CDs are very poor representations of that. So for active. Uh, CV is a very long-winded resume that sort of tracks all of the things in your academic journey that you get a credit for.

So that is your degrees or it’s that you’ve won publications that are recognized by whatever it is you do in your profession. Um, service that you’ve done. So committees that you’ve served on students that you’ve advised, uh, conferences that you’ve gone to and presentations that you’ve given Wilson.

Whole other episode on conferences and giving talks there. And so this document just gets longer and longer as your career goes. If you look at the CVS of full professors, I don’t know that I can ever read one straight from top to bottom, just because they’ve done so much. Um, so it, it tracks, you know, your academic career as it goes.

And particularly for folks who are going into research based jobs, The peer reviewed publications sort of gets a priority in that list of things that you’ve published, because it is the sort of gold standard for doing scholarship. And kind of like what I was saying before. There are good things about that and that scholarship should be supported by other people who are also experts in your field.

Usually. , it’s very good to have your work. Double-check just because we’re all very. Human. And we couldn’t possibly know everything there is to know or have read our behaviors to , read. So in a, in a, in a perfect world where we’re all supportive of one another’s goals and aims, it would, it’d be just tremendously helpful to make sure that everybody’s ideas have been in conversation with others, with expertise.

, But in terms of the elite ism that Constance was talking about, it also means that academia is giving a tremendous amount of weight to a drama that only speaks to other academics, which means that there are a lot of us sitting on top of knowledge. That is super important, but often isn’t written for a general audience.

And that’s where you end up with. A very earned distrust of academics. And when we’ve done such a poor job of relating why, what we do is important or how it connects to people’s everyday lives, uh, let alone, you know, how to take this knowledge and make it usable for her, for the goals that?

they have in, in their own material needs.

So. Um, again, everything sort of is in that gray area. There are good things about this process and the way that it works. And there are things that have made academia tremendously limiting in terms of who it’s speaking to and how.

Yeah, and I really want to underscore something you’re saying there, which is that the language that we’ve historically privileged as scholarly is not inherently scholarly, it was just created by a certain set of people with a certain set of aesthetics and a certain set of knowledge that they then use to legitimate.

People like them. Right? And so the other forms of knowledge that come with people with disabilities or often communities of color, or queer communities or trans communities, those things are seen as less legitimate and have often had to. Try to explain what it is that they’re contributing to the conversation when they are already very valid bodies of knowledge that have created like the survival of entire communities.

So back to that point about this being an inherently conservative process, right? And, and that is a very slow moving evolution if it’s happening at all. Um, I don’t know where I was even going with that.

Yeah, well, I mean, we started, so we started out with a CV, which you because that was concise. I would have rambled for an hour about that, but I think part of where you were going, which I think we’ve got to do a whole separate episode is kind of about linguistic justice or injustice as the case may be.

Right. Because a lot of our communication has been de-legitimized by the academy. It makes it inherently an uneven unequal playing field. And so you’re already starting behind from, whatever the metaphor is. I’m butchering it, but so you’re starting the race from behind.

And so I think is going to be a whole other thing, but I did have a question not to this CV thing to death. I’m genuinely curious, and I could probably just Google it, but while we’re talking about it. So, so it used to be like I’ve had a number of jobs. You will find a lot of find a lot out about us over the course of this podcast.

I’ve been a bartender I’ve worked at Walmart. I’ve been like all kinds of, not a bartender and Lord I’m making up fields. What’s the thing that you do. I was a black Jack dealer. I knew it started with a B.

That is.

a blackjack dealer. I just made up a whole career blackjack dealer. But anyway, so at one point I was, I had a resume, more so than a CV and the thing with resumes, they used to say, don’t go back, past 10 years.

So I was updating my CV the other day and I had I was like, well, this is really, old, maybe I should delete it. But now that you mentioned about full professors’ CVs.I’ve seen those things look like a whole pack, like a whole magazine, do academics, delete things after 10 years. I don’t think so.

Not that I recall or see. And , there are things that I put in there during grad school, but I’ve deleted like really minor committees or things that fill out the, the CV when you don’t have things to put on it. But otherwise if you published a major article 20 years ago, that is definitely still on your CV.

Yeah, well, for sure. I thought about that too. I was like, well, career academics, you got a list it cause it’s all part of your professional career. Once you’re out of grad school, like that’s your been your career? Yeah, I have to think about that. I don’t think hopefully it was something really minor

so question in I don’t know, the remaining time that we have left, should probably talk a little bit about process since we emphasize so much. And of course the episode is called, we should be writing. So you want to speak to your process or

Yeah,

mean?

we can do that. And. Audiences all two of our listeners will get used to the fact that they’re getting a particularly skewed version of this experience from both of us. And which is part of the intent really in that a lot of,, those who are giving voice academic experiences are not people like us, but given that we’re both a little or a lot ADHD.

Uh, writing process is probably different than it is for folks who are neuro-typical. Um, I’ve found having been a creative writer to get my MFA and now an academic, none of the advice about this is how to be productive or how to be a good writer works for me in any way whatsoever. ,

There’s like a two week writing, bootcamp that folks do. And I’ve heard a lot of good things about it. And I know that it’s been productive for a lot of people. And for me, the way that those things are run, like you will set them aside this time, each day to write. Does not work for me for a lot of reasons.

One in that that might just not be where my brain is that day. And if I am not having a good hyper-focused moment, I might not be able to do. Anything, but at that moment, but also being a chronically sick person, I write when my body lets me, you know, um, and that also makes my schedule super erratic and that, you know, I’m feeling good right now.

So I will do what I need to right now, while I have this degree of physical capacity and that will adjust it depending on how I feel throughout the day. , but similarly, The,, things about writing, like this is how you organize a thing, or this is how you outline a thing. None of those are how I write.

Um, I have, I’ve learned over time that I’m kind of a chaotic, my partner calls me chaotic good. Uh, which I think is pretty accurate. Uh, hopefully the good part too, but I, for, for most things that I’ve written, including the book that is currently in process, um, and moving closer to the production process.

I word vomit, a lot of things. And I’ve learned to trust myself that even though I can’t consciously see what is happening on the page, eventually those ideas start to coalesce and I start to see a through line and sometimes, uh, a technique that I actually really love. Uh, and this one is a shout out to Lisa Corian actually is, uh, creating a list of keywords and then writing.

To find connections between those keywords until I’ve reached at, you know, until I’ve reached maybe. One or two sentence statement about this is what this is about. And then I will have the core idea in front of me. So that’s like a trick that I really love, or, you know, anytime that I’m stuck, I get out a pen and paper and I write to myself what I’m really trying to say is, and I take all of the dragon out of it.

I talked to myself about what I’m trying to do. Um, but, but otherwise the stuff about like set aside this amount of time. Outlined this thing first, none of those things are for me. And I’m sure that they work well for other people, but I it’s, it hasn’t, it hasn’t for me. So I’m curious about your, your experiences.

I guess that’s why we’re academic misfits, right? That the typical or the quote unquote conventional wisdom does not work for us but just in the way of conventional wisdom, people will say write every day. That’s what people will say, even if it’s not good. Even if, whatever, just write everyday, get something down, even if it’s word vomit you can clean it up later and it doesn’t matter how long.

So people have said you can do 15 minutes, you can do 30 minute. That I think is consistently at different conferences and different workshops I’ve done. That has been the mantra and setting aside the different it varies but time where it’s uninterrupted and as a single parent of three children, I can tell you that.

No such time exist. I don’t write every day we said we should be writing. I should be, today was a day where I had the intention of writing and I actually have written a little bit, but I got distracted. I was trying to retrieve some documents.

And then I realized that my Dropbox files were really disorganized. So then I had to do that thing. For me, I use the versus sprinter metaphor, which doesn’t always hold up well, but because I don’t know when the kids are going to be sick or when there’s going to be a quote unquote, good time when I’m able to, with family support.

And it seems like it’s, I’m going to be able to be in a good mental and physical place, that I can sort of isolate. Then I try to do little retreats and that is contingent on my budget. It’s contingent on the support of family and friends, I try to, people call them different things like a staycation or writing retreat or whatever, but I try to just hole up, like the actually feel like I’m getting into a zone where.

I’m not physically back at work because since the time that I started working on my manuscript, like two and a half, three years ago, my mother has had cancer. I have had a hip replacement. I’ve had an asthmatic child in and out of the hospital and there’s been a whole damn pandemic. So I’m not anywhere near where I thought I would be.

And I’m still thankful to be wherever the hell I am. And thankful that the days like today where can write something, it feels like a good day to me. Yeah, but I try it. So, I try to do writing retreats and I try to do writing lock-ins and, hopefully I will build momentum.

So today has been a really good day. And then theoretically, if nobody gets sick, then tomorrow can be a really good day. And if nobody gets sick, because I don’t have to go into work. So I don’t have the disruptions of everyday life right now, which is a sort of protective space, right. Because many of us, if you’re not.

If you have more than a two, two load, or if you have family obligations, Whatever the case may be, then, you got daily disruption. So this idea of uninterrupted time, or even that you can set aside, people say everybody has 30 minutes, everybody that, yeah, I have 30 minutes, but I also have to do laundry in 30 minutes.

I got to take somebody to band practice. In 30 minutes, I got to pick up somebody from work. I got a potty training regression going on over here.

So, you know, I don’t ever want to be dismissive of someone else’s struggles. And I think that when colleagues or people say things like that, that they’re not that you always have 30 minutes that they’re not necessarily trying to be dismissive or it’s not with malicious intent.

I think that sometimes people do not realize how complicated other people’s day-to-day lives are. Particularly if you struggle a physical, emotional, mental, and then you also have. Other, partners or children or even parents that you’re caring for, then it just gets really complicated.

But I’m actually really, really thankful because if I had, let’s say if I had finished the book a year ago, A year and a half ago, some of the really groundbreaking research exciting things that I’m really like, going to add, Andre Brock’s look at cyber cultures and libidinal economies into the text like there’s so much exciting stuff that I can now be a part of this conversation that I’m wanting to have.

So on the one hand, maybe I could have been a part of the groundbreaking research, but that’s okay. But I think that what Jo and I are both saying is that everybody’s process is different and that’s okay. So I think you just gotta find what works for you and embrace that.

Yeah, I like what you said about there being groundbreaking conversations that you can be in conversation with. And I love that perspective on that you will be part of the groundbreaking conversation just at a different entry point than where you might’ve been otherwise. I. Like that we’re talking about strategies that we have that are perhaps different, but still work for us.

I am also a binge type writer. It’s my experience of ADHD, but I, I don’t know if it’s everyone’s, but that one of the things I struggle with is. Changing the track of my brain on demand. So the hyper-focus thing I might be, I might discover that my Dropbox is disorganized and that is suddenly what I am doing for the next hour, instead of the thing I was planning to do.

But at some point when I’m working on a project, I will hit that on the article that I’m working on. And I know that I will just disappear for a couple of days. Unfortunately for my loved ones, everything else kind of falls away a little bit as I’m focused on the thing. And that is when I get the writing done, but it does not happen in the 15, 30 minute blocks that I set aside because I just can’t switch my brain in that moment.

And the other, the other big strategy for me, As a chronically sick person is that my calendar is a lie. Uh, all of my deadlines are a week ahead, so that I’ve built in a buffer zone for, in case I get sick in case I need to get some tests done or whatever. And that’s been beyond just practically helpful.

It’s been emotionally helpful for me and that I know I I’ve created that like bit of security for myself, even though it’s not perfect. Um, and so

do that.

when.

I need to do that.

Yeah. So it’s hard to do if you haven’t done it already, because now you already have deadlines, you know, zooming in on you. I was fortunate in that. I started that way.

My dad set all the clocks in our house, five minutes fast. So my entire life as a kid, I was just five minutes early to everything. And I think some part of that stock so that my entire calendar is.

listen, that used to be a thing. I think I have somehow gotten out of that. Cause I used to do that, like put the thing early on my calendar so that I know it would be on time or whatever.

And now I was just like, it’s a whole mess over here, but this is what I would say in terms of consistency. To your point, even though. I’m not ill, having a kid who’s chronically ill, ever really being able to be in that mindset. And then also having, you know, alternate periods of hyper no focus at all, what I will say.

And I think I got this from a writing workshop is for those who are able to have a very set schedule, even if you don’t have inspiration to write, I do find that there are times where I can add to the bibliography or I can do formattingwhich is time consuming. So I find there are ways to be productive and to help kind of further your projects along, even when you don’t really have inspiration.

So I don’t know if that’s helpful to anybody, but that’s maybe my 2 cents.

Yeah. I like that too. You learn what you can do in different. Brain spaces or emotional places. So if I can’t write at this time, I, I have learned to acknowledge that, but I’m not getting writing done. So instead I will do the teaching prep that I need to do, or I’ll read the articles I keep meaning to read.

And oftentimes if I’m stuck reading, the articles that have been reading to read is a good way to get me thinking. But I think one of the through lines in this conversation is to not only forgive yourself for not meeting the like, Expectations or the standards of what H how things should be done. But also embracing that as a part of who you are as a scholar teacher, et cetera, that this is your process, and that’s fine because it’s what works for you and how you’re going to be able to do the best of your.

Yeah. I don’t know if it’ll end up being the best advice for academics, I’ve kind of leaned into that identity of nutty professor. I’m so absent minded, you know, and but here’s the other thing, and this may be like really shocking and it might even be blasphemous to say, but the most salient part of my identity is actually not professor.

is is wonderful. That is fantastic. More people need to say that out loud.

I know that there are career academics who can’t imagine doing anything else and believe me, I love doing this, so I hope I’m doing this thing for a while, but, first and most important.

I think, the most salient aspect of my identity for me at least is being a mother. So everything else kind of, just get to them where it fits in.

Yeah. I honestly think that that makes you a better person in this field when you’re able to see things outside of it and the stakes of things outside of it and engage with others that you interact with understanding that there are stakes outside of it. I think we would all be a much healthier profession if folks had definitions of themselves That extended beyond the walls of the universe.

That is a really, really great point. By the time this podcast comes out, there will be a Twitter account. while we’re talking about this idea of peer review and we should be writing.

There is a question that I want to pose and we’ll tweet it out to our 10 followers or whatever, is the self citation an academic flex is it just pretentious as hell? That’s really the question, although Jo, I should ask you to chime in on that. Actually I’m going to post, I’m going to put it on the Twitter, whatever the tweet, whatever we call it.

what do you think about that?

Well, I’m so glad you’re managing the Twitter because that is not a platform that I have experienced with, or I’m good at, I’m not good at being concise, which might be more problem. And also I’m worried about apparently all sorts of contentious conversations happen on academic Twitter. And I’m worried about poking that bear, but self citation is strange, especially if you are somebody who does a really.

New or marginalized area of work. Sometimes you are the only person who has done this thing. And that I think is totally fine. I have no problem with people who say to themselves. I think that that’s super relevant and important sometimes. And as a reader, I find it useful. Like I need to know what you think is useful of the things that you’ve written about this topic.

, I find it. Worse when academics have written on a thing and they think they’re the only person who’s written on that thing. So I can’t believe so-and-so wrote on it and didn’t cite me. Well, they cited other, they, they got to that topic through other people, which is great. There are other people who are interested in exploring the things that you are interested in.

You’re exploring. Uh, I. 10 to cite myself when I can avoid it. If I can avoid it, I try not to. Except I had a funny experience and I know I have several colleagues who have also had this experience where you get reviewer feedback. And because you’re anonymous, they’re like, well, why didn’t this person site?

So-and-so, who’s written about this? And you’re like, maybe that person is so-and-so and they felt weird about siding themselves.

that’s funny. That would be awkward as hell. So here’s what I would say about that, I guess, as a kind of, I think. So, I guess I’m thinking about it actually from almost the undergrads the way, or maybe not undergrad, because I think at one point I even had grad students who didn’t necessarily know this, but I just maybe I’ll respond from the ethical standpoint.

I think . It is a responsible thing to do and that we should do it because you don’t want to be using old research and presenting it as if it were something new. And I think that could be, an ethical issue. So you’ve done the work site, the work, or , to your earlier point site, other people, and I’m okay.

I mean I feel weird. I think one time I quoted myself, I, that feels weird to me. Like I, and I don’t have, you know, like a ton. I think I’ve done it once, but so I I’d rather use the citation. I feel super awkward to like Bailey says blah, blah, then I feel a bit pretentious. Right. And so I haven’t ever done that.

Like on like, an article, but I have in, a talk because I was trying to quote something that, I had whatever. But anyway, so that feels, then it feels a little pretentious. I wasn’t like, ah, yeah. That’s probably what I would say is just,, do it, if it’s ethical, if it’s unethical to not do it right.

Yeah. , and I also, I will say, the thing about this profession is that a lot of times the stakes of what we do are pretty low, which should be a nice thing about this job, that nobody’s dying on the surgical table. If we’re having a bad day at work. , which means if we’re for me, If you want to celebrate yourself a little bit for having been the first person to write about this or having written the most important article about this, please, by all means, you know, it doesn’t hurt me in any way, if that’s, what you need to do.

So, so for me, I, you know, do what you want.

Yeah. Hey, toot your own horn. Hey, if you don’t do that, no, it might not get to that. I don’t know.

Yeah.

I’m the queen of this because of my interest in oral tradition. So I’m the queen of. And, and metaphors and of these different innovative uses of language, but I always screw them up.

So, I always try to tell people nothing beats a fail, but I try, but I don’t know if that’s it, or if it’s nothing beats a try, but a fail and then I get confused when I try to explain. So that is a thing, right? Like Constance’s botched. Metaphors might become its own segment.

We’ll have like outtakes of conferences,

loans.

Yes. The outtakes. right. Well, anything else on Peerless review slash we should be writing.

I like this as a stopping point. I think some of journals have this strange currency in academia publications. Do they have some pluses and minuses that we’ve discussed? Uh, you should have whatever writing.

process is best for your life, your situation, your brain, your body, and toot your own horn because, uh, we want to celebrate you and the things that you’ve.

Awesome. Well, Hey, if you have any other questions, comments, for us, feedback, us up on theunpackthispodcast@gmail.com and yeah, I think that’s a wrap.

All All right, till next time.