This week, Zachary and Jeremi meet with Yale historian David Sorkin discussing his book, The Emancipationists: 19th Century Jews\u2019 Campaign for Citizenship. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
David Sorkin is the Lucy G. Moses Professor of Modern Jewish History at Yale University. He is the author of numerous books,\u00a0including\u00a0The Transformation of German Jewry, 1780-1840<\/em>,\u00a0Jewish Emancipation: A History Across Five Centuries<\/em>, and, most recently,\u00a0The Emancipationists: Nineteenth-Century Jews\u2019 Campaign for Citizenship<\/em>.\u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"This week, Zachary and Jeremi meet with Yale historian David Sorkin discussing his book, The Emancipationists: 19th Century Jews\u2019 Campaign for Citizenship. David Sorkin is the Lucy G. Moses Professor of Modern Jewish History at Yale University. He is the author of numerous books,\u00a0including\u00a0The Transformation of German Jewry, 1780-1840,\u00a0Jewish Emancipation: A History Across Five Centuries, […]","protected":false},"author":10,"featured_media":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":true,"_genesis_hide_title":false,"_genesis_hide_breadcrumbs":false,"_genesis_hide_singular_image":false,"_genesis_hide_footer_widgets":false,"_genesis_custom_body_class":"","_genesis_custom_post_class":"","_genesis_layout":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"http:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/17\/2026\/10\/2026-10-05-tid.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"38:00","filesize":"52.17M","filesize_raw":"54709398","date_recorded":"2026-10-05 17:00:15","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"","itunes_title":"","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":""},"tags":[],"categories":[],"series":[2,891],"class_list":["post-4082","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","series-this-is-democracy","series-default-podcast","entry"],"acf":{"related_episodes":"","hosts":[{"ID":820,"post_author":"10","post_date":"2019-08-19 13:47:33","post_date_gmt":"2019-08-19 18:47:33","post_content":"\n Zachary Suri is a host, co-producer, and poet-in-residence for This is Democracy.\u00a0Zachary is an undergraduate at Yale University, where he studies languages, history, and literature. He writes regularly for the Yale Daily News.\u00a0Zachary\u2019s poetry has been published by numerous publications, including\u00a0CNN.com<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0Urbanitus.com<\/a>. He was the 2022-2023 Austin Youth Poet Laureate and a recipient of the Scholastic Art & Writing Awards Silver Key and AISD Trustees\u2019 Scholar Award. You can hear him discuss his poetry on\u00a0public radio<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n","post_title":"Zachary Suri","post_excerpt":"","post_status":"publish","comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","post_password":"","post_name":"zachary-suri","to_ping":"","pinged":"","post_modified":"2025-09-09 12:12:36","post_modified_gmt":"2025-09-09 17:12:36","post_content_filtered":"","post_parent":0,"guid":"http:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/?post_type=speaker&p=820","menu_order":0,"post_type":"speaker","post_mime_type":"","comment_count":"0","filter":"raw"},{"ID":301,"post_author":"10","post_date":"2019-01-15 11:25:23","post_date_gmt":"2019-01-15 17:25:23","post_content":"I am a child of the global transformations that re-made societies in the last century\u2013war, migration, nation-building, and mobility through higher education. All of my research, writing, and teaching seeks to explain these transformations\u2013their diverse origins, their contradictory contours, and their long-lasting effects. My scholarship is therefore an extended inquiry into the workings of power at local and international levels, and the interactions across these levels. Like other historians, I treat power as contingent, context-dependent, and often quite elusive. Like practitioners of politics, I view power as essential for any meaningful achievement, especially in the realms of social justice and democratization.\n\nMy hope is that my work will reach a broad and diverse audience of citizens. Scholarship cannot substitute for real-lived experience, but I believe it can enhance our contemporary understanding of the choices we confront in the allocation of our resources, the structuring of our communities, and the judgment of merit. In this framework, international, transnational, and global history should contribute to better thinking about current international, transnational, and global problems. I am a proponent of historical and political studies that are broad, compelling, creative, and, ultimately, useful. We should research with Monkish rigor, as we write (and lecture) with novelistic flair.\n\nResearch interests\nThe formation and spread of nation-states; the emergence of modern international relations; the connections between foreign policy and domestic politics; the rise of knowledge institutions as global actors.\n\nCourses taught\nInternational History since 1898; The Past and Future of Global Strategy; American Foreign Relations\n\nAwards, Honors\nRecognized as one of \"America's Top Young Innovators\" by Smithsonian Magazine; Class of 1955 Distinguished Teaching Award, University of Wisconsin","post_title":"Jeremi Suri","post_excerpt":"","post_status":"publish","comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","post_password":"","post_name":"jeremi-suri","to_ping":"","pinged":"","post_modified":"2022-06-02 13:27:50","post_modified_gmt":"2022-06-02 18:27:50","post_content_filtered":"","post_parent":0,"guid":"http:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/?post_type=speaker&p=301","menu_order":0,"post_type":"speaker","post_mime_type":"","comment_count":"0","filter":"raw"}],"guests":[{"ID":4084,"post_author":"10","post_date":"2026-10-05 17:02:23","post_date_gmt":"2026-10-05 22:02:23","post_content":"\n David Sorkin is the Lucy G. Moses Professor of Modern Jewish History at Yale University. He is the author of numerous books,\u00a0including\u00a0The Transformation of German Jewry, 1780-1840<\/em>,\u00a0Jewish Emancipation: A History Across Five Centuries<\/em>, and, most recently,\u00a0The Emancipationists: Nineteenth-Century Jews\u2019 Campaign for Citizenship<\/em>.\u00a0<\/p>\n","post_title":"Professor David Sorkin","post_excerpt":"","post_status":"publish","comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","post_password":"","post_name":"professor-david-sorkin","to_ping":"","pinged":"","post_modified":"2026-10-05 17:02:23","post_modified_gmt":"2026-10-05 22:02:23","post_content_filtered":"","post_parent":0,"guid":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/?post_type=speaker&p=4084","menu_order":0,"post_type":"speaker","post_mime_type":"","comment_count":"0","filter":"raw"}],"transcript":" [00:00:00] Voiceover: This is Democracy <\/p>\n A podcast about the people of the United States A podcast about citizenship <\/p>\n About engaging with politics and the world around <\/p>\n you A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues And how to have a voice in what happens next <\/p>\n [00:00:20] Zachary Suri: Hello, and welcome to our latest episode of This Is Democracy.<\/p>\n Uh, today we have a real treat. Um, not only are we talking about a very interesting new book, but with a very interesting person as well. Um, our guest today, uh, is Professor David Sorkin. Um, Professor Sorkin is the Lucy G. Moses Professor of Jewish History at Yale University. He has received, uh, multiple honors, including the Guggenheim, the National Endowment for the Humanities, and, uh, Whitney Humanities Center fellowships, as well as the National Jewish Book Award for scholarship.<\/p>\n Uh, he is the author of the book, uh, Jewish Emancipation, uh, and most recently, uh, the book that we will be discussing with him today, um, a new book from Yale University Press titled The Emancipationists: 19th Century Jews’ Campaign for Citizenship. Uh, Professor Sorkin, thank you for joining us. <\/p>\n [00:01:11] Prof. David Sorkin: Oh, thank you for inviting me.<\/p>\n I’m delighted to be here. <\/p>\n [00:01:14] Zachary Suri: Well, thank you for, for, for joining us. Um, Professor Sorkin is, in addition to all of those many things, my, uh, senior thesis advisor, so thank you for suffering through that with me. And, um, he also is our former neighbor in, uh, Madison, Wisconsin. <\/p>\n [00:01:27] Jeremi Suri: That’s right. He attended your naming ceremony, Zachary.<\/p>\n [00:01:29] Zachary Suri: That’s right. Yes. Many many, many years ago. <\/p>\n [00:01:33] Jeremi Suri: He has seen the, the full arc of your early intellectual development. <\/p>\n [00:01:36] Zachary Suri: Yes. That’s right. And of course, as you can tell, we are joined this morning by Professor Jeremi Suri as well. Good morning. <\/p>\n [00:01:43] Jeremi Suri: Good morning. <\/p>\n [00:01:44] Zachary Suri: Before we dive right in, um, I think it might be useful for some of our listeners, um, who maybe aren’t as familiar with Jewish history or Jewish political history as, uh, the three of us, um, to understand what this term emancipation means in the first place.<\/p>\n Um, and Professor Sorkin, you’re obviously the, the world-leading expert on this question, so how would you explain what Jewish emancipation, uh, means in this context? <\/p>\n [00:02:06] Prof. David Sorkin: Uh, tha- tha- thanks for that question, Zach. I think it’s very important, uh, to explain it. Uh, I think for an American audience, uh, the term emancipation is confusing, um, because it’s generally associated with the emancipation of slaves in the United States.<\/p>\n Um, in, in Europe, it’s generally associated, uh, with the emancipation of serfs. Um, but the term was also applied, uh, in Europe, uh, in the 18th and 19th centuries to the emancipation of religious groups that had an inferior political status. So one of the most important, um, uh, uh, incidents of this was the emancipation of Catholics in 1828 in England.<\/p>\n Um, uh, England had, um… uh, united with, uh, the, with Ireland, uh, during the Napoleonic period in order to prevent an invasion. Uh, and this led to a major constitutional problem in that the Catholics were not allowed, um, to take the oaths, uh, that were necessary in order to vote Uh, and to have the vote, uh, in, in, in England.<\/p>\n Uh, so that was a constitutional crisis. Uh, the Irish mobilized, uh, created a political movement, exerted pressure on Parliament, and in 1828 there was a vote to emancipate the Catholics and, uh, give them political equality, meaning to say the right to vote. From that point onwards, the term was also applied to Jews in Europe, uh, who also had an inferior position, uh, because Judaism was con- was held to be an inferior religion.<\/p>\n Jews were not Christians. They were not allowed to take the oaths, uh, or to hold, uh, that were necessary for, uh, to, to, to vote or to hold political office or offices of trust as they were called. Uh, and they were not e- they were not equal subjects or equal citizens. So the term emancipation is applied to the em- the, the v- the very long process, uh, that, that unfolds over a number of centuries by which Jews attained equality and became equal citizens.<\/p>\n [00:04:49] Zachary Suri: And, and this process of emancipation, obviously not just for Jews, but in a lot of countries like France, chiefly around the question of Jewish emancipation, um, isn’t just a sort of like footnote, uh, in European political history as I understand it. You see it in particular as, as critical to the broader development of democracy in Europe.<\/p>\n Is, is that correct? <\/p>\n [00:05:09] Prof. David Sorkin: That’s right. Well, it, it, it’s critical to the, to the development I, I would say of constitutional government. Um, the emancipation of Jews, Jews attaining citizenship, uh, always, always came at the end of the process for other groups. So, for example, uh, you mentioned France. Uh, Protestants were also unequal citizens after, or subjects, after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685.<\/p>\n But in 1787, uh, they were, they were, uh, given toleration, meaning to say they then had civic status, they could inherit property, um, they could register their marriages. Uh, f- the French monarchy was about, was about to undertake to do the same thing for Jews, uh, but then the revolution intervened and instead of be- being granted toleration, Jews were, were made equal, equal citizens in 1790 and 1791.<\/p>\n Uh, the same thing happens in, uh, in England, for example. We’ve talked about the Catholics. It was first Protestant dissenters Uh, who had to be released from their inferior status. That occurred between the 1790s, uh, and the early 1820s when Protestant dissenters, meaning to say Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, uh, were allowed to vote and to hold political office and to have equal civil status.<\/p>\n The same thing occurred in the Habsburg Empire. Um, Jews were emancipated in 1867 when the Habsburg Empire was restructured and became Austria-Hungary, but Protestants had been emancipated in 1864. So the emancipation of Jews or Jews becoming citizens and having equality always followed that of other religious groups.<\/p>\n So it was part of a larger process of creating a polity with constitutional government, with equality before the law. <\/p>\n [00:07:22] Jeremi Suri: So David, one of the really interesting points you make, uh, in your book, uh, th- this new book does resonate with one, uh, pattern in the scholarship on emancipation in the United States as well, which is you argue that, um, until recently, m- much of the scholarship on Jewish emancipation has, in, in your words, said that, uh, it was given to Jews.<\/p>\n Where, where the, the emancipators, as you call them, were not at the center of the story, did not have political agency. Of course, that was true in the history of, uh, the slave emancipation in the United States for a long time. It was largely written as if Lincoln gave the slaves freedom- <\/p>\n [00:07:57] Prof. David Sorkin: Mm-hmm … <\/p>\n [00:07:58] Jeremi Suri: for example.<\/p>\n Um, so this, this turn in your book to focusing on the Jewish emancipators, how does that change our story? <\/p>\n [00:08:07] Prof. David Sorkin: Uh, well, it, it, it, it, um, what I’m addressing in the book, uh, is an overall conception of the nature of Jewish political history in the diaspora. Okay? I, I don’t wanna expand the terms and, and the chronology that I’m talking about too much, but it, it’s impossible not to do so.<\/p>\n Um, Jewish political history has been written as if Jews ceased to have a political history from the time they were, uh, from the time, from the beginnings, from, from the time, from the destruction of the Second Temple and the destruction of Jewish sovereignty in 70 and 130 CE when the Romans destroyed, uh, Jerusalem and exiled, uh, the majority of Jews.<\/p>\n Um. And the Jews only, the, the Jews in the diaspora were then powerless. They had no politics. And it’s only with the beginnings of Jewish nationalism and Jewish socialism in the 1880s and 1890s in Eastern Europe that Jews begin to recover, uh, or to act politically and to recover, and to recover power.<\/p>\n Now, that has become, uh, sort of a standard version of Jewish history. Uh, it fits very well with, uh, the self-understanding of Jewish nationalist movements such as Autonomism and Zionism, uh, and also Jewish socialism, Bundism. Uh, but it actually isn’t at all historically accurate. <\/p>\n [00:09:52] Jeremi Suri: Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:09:53] Prof. David Sorkin: Jews in the diaspora, uh, whether it was in Babylonia, in Spain, um, in Eastern Europe, in Western and Central Europe, in North Africa and the Middle East, Jewish communities as collectives always exercised forms of political power.<\/p>\n They had representatives who negotiated with governments, uh, representatives who intervened with governments. Uh, they exercised the power of a diaspora minority. You know, it’s really been the, uh, as you mentioned, uh, Jeremi, about, um, uh, the emancipation of slaves in the United States. It’s really, it, it’s, it’s really been a major turn in historical scholarship of the last Half-century, the last 75 years, to recognize that minorities in a larger society are able to exercise various forms of political power.<\/p>\n [00:10:53] Jeremi Suri: Yes. <\/p>\n [00:10:54] Prof. David Sorkin: And so I’m really taking th- those sorts of questions and applying them to Jews, uh, particularly in the long 19th century. Uh, because I think the, in, in the writing of Jewish history, the people I call the emancipationists have basically been written out. They’ve been written out of that story. Uh, they’ve been labeled as assimilationists, as people who were denying, uh, their Jewish identity in one way or another, uh, who really just wanted to become part of the larger society, uh, but weren’t actively identified, uh, as Jews or participating, uh, in a Jewish political project.<\/p>\n So by labeling these people emancipationists, what I’m trying to show is that Jews, and particularly Jewish leaders across Europe, but also in the United States, mobilized in order to, uh, participate in the process of gaining rights. Uh, that they, uh, made use of the new political methods, um, that were emerging in the 19th century: vernacular press, law and the courts, uh, philanthropic organizations, educational organizations, lobbying organizations.<\/p>\n They adopted all of those methods from the larger society, uh, amalgamated those methods with their inherited, uh, practices of diaspora Jewish politics, and turned them into, uh, powerful means, uh, to lobby for their own equal rights and e- and citizenship.<\/p>\n [00:12:49] Zachary Suri: And w- what were those means that they used to, to try and gain political power? Um, you divide it, very interestingly, you divide the book not necessarily by region or even by person, but by, by method. Um, so I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit to that choice, and also, um, if you had to sort of describe in, in, in, in, in short terms, like, what the, the ways that they used to gain political power were, what would those be?<\/p>\n [00:13:15] Prof. David Sorkin: Yeah. Well, y- y- y- you know, a- uh, i- you mentioned that I talk about, I organize the book according to the means of political power rather than organizing it regionally. Uh, and I, and I think that’s a very, uh, important insight. Um, I really try to show, um, that the political methods that Jewish leaders used, um, were very much the same across Europe and in the United States.<\/p>\n So, for example Uh, the first chapter deals with community organization. Now, the view of Jewish political history, uh, which argued that Jewish politics only began in the late 19th century, um, always, um, asserted that with emancipation, uh, there were no longer, uh, uh, active, um, Jewish community organizations, uh, which could assert a kind of political power.<\/p>\n So I actually go through and show that in fact, that’s simply not the case. Um, you know, one of the most famous Jewish community organizations was the Consistoire or the, or the, uh, Consistory that was created by Napoleon, uh, in 1808 after the Parisian Sanhedrin. Um, for one thing, it’s usually assumed that Napoleon imposed this organization on the Jews, uh, in the same way that he imposed a, a, a Consistory organization on the Protestants a few years earlier.<\/p>\n In fact, it turns out that Jewish community leaders had petitioned the French government and Napoleon to create a new community organization after what had existed in the Ancien R\u00e9gime where, where these corporate organizations were dissolved. So first– so the first thing is it wasn’t just an organization imposed on French Jews, French Jewish leaders asked for it.<\/p>\n But then it turns out that these French– that the, that the French, that French Jewish leaders, uh, of the Consistory used the Consistory, uh, to lobby the French government. Um, Napoleon in 1808 after the Sanhedrin, um, had promulgated a number of decrees restricting Jewish rights, basically turning what had been an unconditional emancipation during the revolution into a conditional emancipation, uh, in which there were restrictions on Jewish residential rights and Jewish occupations, the ability to, uh, loan money, et cetera.<\/p>\n Um, those, the so-called infamous decrees, which were promulgated in 1808, uh, were valid for a decade, but N-Napoleon had made them renewable, so they came up for renewal in 180- 1818. So in the run-up to 1818, the Consistory lobbied the French government, wrote public– wrote political tracts th- which were then published, uh, and really organized a campaign to make sure that the infamous decrees were not renewed Um, and then it became involved in other issues as well.<\/p>\n Uh, one of them was, um, uh, the state paying salaries to rabbis. From the time of the revolution, the state had, the state had take- the French state had taken over paying the salaries of clergy, uh, for the Catholic Church and for Protestants, but not for Jews. So Jews, Jews and Judaism became a kind of anomaly.<\/p>\n So in 1830, after the revolution of 1830, the consistory lobbied the French government successfully to begin paying the salaries of rabbis. So here again, it was, uh, forcefully intervening in order to remove an existing vestige of inequality Uh, in other– I then go on in other chapters sh- to show other new methods that emerge.<\/p>\n Uh, uh, I have a chapter on lawyers. Um, i-in the 19th century, you begin to get university-ed Jews who have, who are trained as lawyers at universities in their countries, uh, who then use their legal skills, uh, to advocate for Jewish emancipation. Uh, one of the most famous figures like this in the 19th century, uh, was Adolphe Cr\u00e9mieux in France, uh, who was very, became very famous, uh, during the Damascus Affair in lobbying the French government, actually opposing French foreign policy in order to lobby on behalf of Jews against the blood libel.<\/p>\n Uh, Cr\u00e9mieux went on to become, uh, a minister of justice in two, two French governments. Uh, another figure like that was Gabriel Riesser, uh, who was the, the champion of Jewish emancipation in the German states. Uh, he had studied at the University of Heidelberg, studied law, graduated summa cum laude in canon law and secular law, but because he was Jewish, he couldn’t get an academic position.<\/p>\n He couldn’t even get ins- get instated as a lawyer to practice law. Um, of course, he had, he did have the option of conversion. The moment he converted, he could have had any kind of career he wanted. Uh, but he refused to convert, uh, and instead he became the public advocate for, uh, for Jewish emancipation.<\/p>\n Uh, he wrote his first political tract in 1831, uh, and he continued to lobby on behalf of Jew- for Jewish equality, engaging in public debates in the 1830s and ’40s. Uh, in 1848, he was elected to the, um, Frankfurt National Assembly, where the National Assembly elected him, uh, second vice president, where he also lobbied on behalf of Jewish emancipation and e-equality.<\/p>\n Uh, and eventually in 1860, he was the first Jew in Germany to be appointed a judge. <\/p>\n [00:19:50] Zachary Suri: Hmm. Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:19:51] Prof. David Sorkin: Um, and there were figures, I look at figures, similar figures, uh, in the Habsburg, in the Habsburg lands, uh, in England, where Jews are first admitted to the bar in 1833. Um, there’s a similar development in Russia, which comes later in the century because Russia doesn’t, uh, actually have an independent legal system until 1864.<\/p>\n Uh, after that, Jews train as lawyers and also advocate on behalf of Jewish emancipation, uh, in Russia Uh, yet another method that Jews adopt is that of a vernacular press. Uh, the first Jewish newspaper in a vernacular language was founded in 1837 in Germany, the Allgemeine Zeitung des Judenthums, the general newspaper of Jews.<\/p>\n This became, uh, sort of the, uh, paper of record in the Jewish world, kind of the gold standard of Jewish, uh, Jewish journalism. Um, the paper was founded with, with the goal of advocating for Jewish equality, of, of, of achieving emancipation. Um, uh, the editor of the newspaper, a man, a rabbi by the name of Ludwig Philippson, uh, petitioned organized petitions to governments.<\/p>\n Um, he, uh, uh, published news of, of emancipation and the, and the campaign for equality, uh, uh, from across Europe and the United States. Uh, he created, uh, a kind of Jewish, a, a kind of Jewish reading public and Jewish public opinion. Uh, and he was so well-known, um, and so important that he even, uh, undertook diplomatic missions, meeting with heads of government.<\/p>\n [00:21:50] Voiceover: Yeah. <\/p>\n [00:21:51] Prof. David Sorkin: Um, so those are some of the main… And, and finally, I, I also discuss what I call the philanthropic diplomatic complex. Uh, Jews found all kinds of secondary or voluntary associations to promote Jewish education, to promote Jewish occupational restructuring, and eventually also organizations, um, that take over the kind of lobbying and advocacy that individual lawyers were doing, uh, and turn it into a collective ec- effort.<\/p>\n Uh, one of the first organizations of this kind was actually founded in the United States. It’s an organization that’s, that’s been unjustly neglected and forgotten. Uh, it was the Board of Delegates of American Israelites, founded in 1859. It was actually the first organization of its kind founded by Jews in the United States or in Europe.<\/p>\n Uh, textbooks will tell you the first organization of that kind was the Alliance Isra\u00e9lite Universelle, founded in France in 1860. Uh, but the Board of Delegates preceded it by some seven or eight months. Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:22:59] Voiceover: Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:23:00] Prof. David Sorkin: Um, you also then get, uh, civic defense, civil defense organizations. Jews begin to found these in the 1880s.<\/p>\n Uh, the first is founded in, um- Uh, in, uh, Austria, Austria, Hungary, the \u00d6sterreichische Israelitische Union in the early 1880s. Uh, the Central Verein, the Central Association of, uh, uh, German Citizens of the Jewish, Jewish Persuasion was founded in 1893. Uh, and this is followed by similar organizations in the United States, the American Jewish Committee in 1906, the Anti-Defamation League in 1913.<\/p>\n Uh, these are all organizations founded, uh, to attain emancipation, uh, and to defend it once, once achieved. <\/p>\n [00:23:54] Jeremi Suri: Uh, D-David, th-this is such a fascinating story, and there’s so many interesting characters. Uh, one of your arguments that jumped out to me that I think has a lot of relevance for today is your argument about, uh, a secular identity of Jewishness.<\/p>\n Uh, and I think the term you use is that the emancipationists, or the, the sentence you have here is, “The emancipationists created this secular identity.” What do you mean by that, and what do you mean by Jewishness? <\/p>\n [00:24:20] Prof. David Sorkin: Yeah, I, I, I, I… Uh, thanks for asking that question. Um, you know, I, I, I think, um, e-especially since the people I call the emancipationists, uh, have generally been, been kind of tarred and feathered, uh, with the, um, with the, uh, opprobrious label of being assimilationists.<\/p>\n It’s, I think it’s especially important to, to see that, um, the, the people I’ve talked about, whether lawyers, newspaper editors, activists in Jewish community organizations, philanthropic and educational organizations, civil defense organizations, what these people were doing was actually creating a new way to be Jewish.<\/p>\n Not a new form of Judaism, but a form of secular Jewishness. You know, when you look at the, the, the, the biographies of these people, a lot of them had ceased to be praying Jews, uh, synagogue attenders, uh, but they still identified as Jews and were active as Jews, publicly active as Jews, and were seen as community leaders.<\/p>\n You know, I, I, I quote from a Uh, uh, a novel of, of 1888, Ruben Sachs by Amy Levy. Um, the, the, the, the hero of that novel, Ruben Sachs, uh, is a Cambridge-trained lawyer, uh, who has not much use for Jewish, for Jewish religious observance. He, he, he attends, he’ll attend synagogue because his family is attending synagogue on the high holi- holy days.<\/p>\n He maybe fasts on Yom Kippur, but maybe not. But he belongs to all of these different Jewish organizations in England. He is a community activist, and that is his form of Jewishness. And as, and at one point, the novelist, Amy Levy, has him say or proudly declare, “I am exceedingly fond of my people.” <\/p>\n [00:26:34] Voiceover: Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:26:34] Prof. David Sorkin: So here he is strongly identifying as a Jew, active as a Jew, but not necessarily being a religious Jew Uh, so I think it’s important to recognize this because this is a pattern that, that emerges in the 19th century of pe- of secular Jewishness, uh, which can be f- which could, whi- which for the people I discuss was founded on political activism, uh, and which continues to this day.<\/p>\n Uh, and I think it’s relevant to, for the moment to recognize this as a form of diaspora Jewish politics. That there is a form of diaspora Jewish politics, uh, which precedes Zionism in the state of Israel, and can and should function independently of those things. Hmm. Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:27:28] Zachary Suri: I’m, I’m curious, um, y- you mentioned already the sort of common critique of these, uh, or dismissal of these, um, sort of political and legal and cultural figures as assimilationists.<\/p>\n I’m wondering what you would make or what your response would be to someone who would say, you know, maybe not the sort of classic assimilationist argument, but, you know, the, the collapse of European Jewish life and the Holocaust or the rise of totalitarianism in Europe showed the failures or the shortcomings of these politics, um, and that something else was necessary.<\/p>\n I’m curious what you would make of, of that argument and, and- Yeah. <\/p>\n [00:28:02] Prof. David Sorkin: Well, I, I think that, that’s a really good point, Zach, and I appreciate that. You know, I, I, I think, um, I, I, I think m- my response to that is that, th- or th- the, the problem with that argument is that it is a parochial Jewish argument. It sees the Holocaust as, and everything around the Holocaust, only in terms of Jewish history.<\/p>\n Uh, I mean, I think it’s important to see that the Holocaust occurred as part of the collapse of constitutional government and democracy across Europe, and that after 1945, constitutional government and democracy were restored. The Holocaust is not the endpoint of European Jewish history, and it’s not the final judgment on Jewish emancipation.<\/p>\n I think what’s important to see about Jewish emancipation is that it was an ongoing process in which Jews could gain rights, lose rights, and recover rights. And clearly the Holocaust represents the nadir of Jews losing rights and also, of course, losing their lives. But constitutional government was in fact restored after the Second World War, and Jews regained rights across Western and Central Europe.<\/p>\n I mean, the Eastern Bloc and Russia is a, is a more complicated story, but even there they, they, they were citizens. <\/p>\n [00:29:37] Jeremi Suri: It, it’s interesting to me, David, also, it, it strikes me you’re trying to move us away from the notion that Israel is a natural teleology as well, right? You have- <\/p>\n [00:29:47] Prof. David Sorkin: Exactly. Exactly. <\/p>\n [00:29:48] Jeremi Suri: You talk about Herzl.<\/p>\n Yeah, could you explain that? <\/p>\n [00:29:51] Prof. David Sorkin: Yeah, no, I… Look, I, I, I, I, I think that, um, I think modern Jewish history has conventionally been written, and this is in the textbooks, with 194- you know, 1933 or 1939 to 1945, and 1948 as the end points- Right … especially of European Jewish history. Um, and that’s simply not the case.<\/p>\n Jewish history continues. European Jewish history continues. There are major Jewish communities in England and France and across the continent, right? I mean, there are more Jews in Berlin now than there were in the days of Moses Mendelssohn. <\/p>\n [00:30:32] Jeremi Suri: Right. <\/p>\n [00:30:34] Prof. David Sorkin: Um, so I think, I, I, I think we have to take a longer view.<\/p>\n We have to resist that teleology of 1939, ’39 to ’45 or 1948. History has continued. The process of emancipation has continued. Um, and in fact, it behooves Jews who live in the diaspora to continue to defend emancipation. Emancipation is once again under attack. <\/p>\n [00:31:03] Zachary Suri: Hmm. I, I’m curious what, what you would say the, the real sort of concrete lessons of this history are for us today.<\/p>\n Um, obviously this is a topic that you have written about extensively before. Um, but it seems to me like this new book is really much more in conversation with contemporary politics and our moment today, um, as Jews, as non-Jews engaged in constitutional democracy. Um, what are the lessons that we can learn from this politics moving forward?<\/p>\n [00:31:37] Prof. David Sorkin: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Uh, let, let me just preface it by saying I didn’t write this book as a book of the moment. You know, I, I started writing it in 2019. Um, you know, it took me quite a few years to write. Uh, but I, I, I do think that, uh, willy-nilly, it is a book of the moment, and I think what you’re asking about is, you know, what lessons does it have for the moment?<\/p>\n Uh, I, I, I think it has, um, a, a number of lessons. One lesson is, uh, is that the, the, the emancipationists I write about Were advocating and lobbying on behalf of themselves, but always with a view to the larger society. They realized that Jews could never gain equality unless everyone else gained equality.<\/p>\n They realized that Jews could not be equal before the law unless you had constitutional government which recognized the equality of everyone before the law, right? So, you know, uh, one thing I would say is, you know, there, there’s that old saying, um, is, is it good for the Jews? You know, I, I think that is, that is a mistaken adage for understanding Jewish politics.<\/p>\n [00:33:01] Jeremi Suri: You better talk to my grandmother, David. She <\/p>\n [00:33:03] Prof. David Sorkin: won’t agree with you. Yeah. Oh, I, I, l- l- listen, I, I, I heard it at home as well. You know, the question is not is it good for the Jews,<\/p>\n the question should be are we creating a society which is good for all groups, including the Jews?<\/p>\n [00:33:22] Jeremi Suri: Amen. <\/p>\n [00:33:25] Prof. David Sorkin: You know, and, and I think, and I think one can see this in terms of, you know, uh, in, in terms of the history of diaspora Jewish politics. You know, one of the leading, um Rules of thumb of Jewish diaspora politics is a Talmudic, uh, a, a Talmudic maxim called the law of the land is law, Dina d’malchuta Dina.<\/p>\n Uh, the idea being that if you live in a, in, in a, in a, in a foreign country, you look at the, the laws, you judge the laws of the country in which you’re living according to the standards of Jewish law, and if those laws are just, then you are obligated to follow them. If something is being done, which according to the standards of Jewish law is unjust, then you have legitimate cause not to follow those laws.<\/p>\n What that adage or maxim does, however, is it treats the law of the land as a static entity. <\/p>\n [00:34:38] Voiceover: Hmm. <\/p>\n [00:34:39] Prof. David Sorkin: The people I looked at, the emancipationists, and particularly the lawyers, introduce a major innovation in which they say, “The law of the land is not static. The law of the land is dynamic, and we can participate in changing the law and making it better.<\/p>\n We can push notions of equality before the law, make the state adopt that notion of equality before the law, and, and, and honor it in practice, not just for ourselves, but for everyone.”<\/p>\n [00:35:17] Jeremi Suri: And, and I think, I think David, those, those sentiments are what moved, uh, Jewish civil rights activists in the United States, for example. Of course. <\/p>\n [00:35:24] Prof. David Sorkin: Yes. Yes. Exactly. I mean, if, if you look at, i- i- if you look at the, uh, American Jewish Congress, the Committee on Law and Social Action, that’s exactly what it did, uh, beginning in the late 1940s, first by writing amicus briefs, uh, for suits that the NAACP was bringing, uh, and then by bringing lawsuits of its own.<\/p>\n Also, by writing, you know, new model legislation for f- uh, equal opportunity employment, for fair housing. You know, all of those things were first battled out in the courts at the state, at, at, at the local and state level, and then at the national level. <\/p>\n [00:36:07] Jeremi Suri: Right. Right. This is Louis Brandeis, Abraham Heschel, uh, figures of that sort.<\/p>\n Yeah, it’s extraordinary. <\/p>\n [00:36:12] Prof. David Sorkin: Yeah. Yeah. <\/p>\n [00:36:14] Zachary Suri: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Professor Sorkin. I think you’ve, you’ve given us a, uh, not just a, a wonderful sort of tour de force of this history, but also a kind of call to action at the end here- … um, for a renewed commitment, um, if I, if I might do a little bit of interpretation of my own, uh, a renewed commitment to individual rights a- and the processes of constitutional democracy, um, as the sort of primary protectors of minorities in our world.<\/p>\n Um, and, uh, you know, I think moving forward, these questions will be on the mind of many, and certainly, uh, the topics of the day touch on many of these questions or many of these debates. Um, but unfortunately, I don’t think this history, uh, is brought up enough or discussed as much as it should be, uh, as a part of this conversation.<\/p>\n So hopefully for our listeners today, we’ve been able to add a little bit of, not just context, but, uh, uh, a sort of important, uh, perspective, uh, on this, uh, history and on Jewish political engagement that we don’t often hear enough of. So thank you, Professor Sorkin, uh, for joining us, uh, this morning. Well, thank you for inviting me.<\/p>\n Wonderful. Thank you. And, uh, thank you Professor Suri, as always, for joining us. <\/p>\n [00:37:29] Jeremi Suri: Of course. My pleasure. <\/p>\n [00:37:30] Zachary Suri: And thank you to all of our listeners for joining us for this episode of This is Democracy. <\/p>\n [00:37:37] Voiceover: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio. <\/p>\n And the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin.<\/p>\n The music in this episode was written and recorded by Scott Holmes. <\/p>\n Stay tuned for a new episode every week. <\/p>\n You can find This is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. See you<\/p>\n next time.<\/p>\n"},"episode_featured_image":false,"episode_player_image":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/17\/2021\/03\/This-Is-Democracy-Logo-TPN-Update-2021.png","download_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/podcast-download\/4082\/this-is-democracy-episode-330-jewish-politics-since-the-19th-century.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/this-is-democracy\/podcast-player\/4082\/this-is-democracy-episode-330-jewish-politics-since-the-19th-century.mp3","audio_player":"