This is Democracy Episode 331 – Nonprofit News

[00:00:22] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

This week is another special week. We have another terrific guest, with us, someone I’ve been looking forward to speaking with for a long time ’cause I’ve heard so much about her from many people, including her dad- … who’s, a friend and former mayor of Austin. this is Sarah Adler Hartman. welcome, Sarah.

[00:00:44] Sarah Adler Hartman: I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:46] Jeremi Suri: We’re delighted to have you. Sarah is the chief executive officer of The Texas Tribune, which, as we’ll talk about today, is one of the most important state and local news sources in the United States today, and a model for many others. before coming to The Texas Tribune, before we were lucky enough to recruit her here, she was the head of product and new subscriber services at The New York Times.

and among other things, she focused on engaging and retaining subscribers to The New York Times, and I’m happy to say that I’m probably not one of the longest time subscribers, but I’ve been a subscriber, I think, all my life, all- … every year, every day. As Zachary knows, I’m sort of obsessed with The New York Times.

Before that, Sarah began her career as an entrepreneur, and, she was a founder of a food media company, Spoon University, which I think she founded actually as a student at Northwestern.

[00:01:38] Sarah Adler Hartman: It’s true.

[00:01:38] Jeremi Suri: That’s amazing. You started really early.

[00:01:40] Sarah Adler Hartman: Really early.

[00:01:41] Jeremi Suri: Wow, so this is in your blood, in a sense-

right? We are, are so fortunate to have Sarah with us today. Of course, we’re also joined by Mr. Zachary Suri. How are you today, Zachary?

[00:01:50] Zachary Suri: Doing well. Good morning.

[00:01:52] Jeremi Suri: Good morning. Or good

[00:01:52] Zachary Suri: afternoon.

[00:01:53] Jeremi Suri: Yeah. Well, whatever time of day it is. So, so Sarah, the, Texas Tribune is a really unique organization, as I mentioned already.

it’s a not-for-profit, that provides, really very detailed coverage of news, for the state of Texas. It covers a lot of local news as well. Just maybe tell us a little bit about what makes this organization unique.

[00:02:16] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah, of course. So when the Tribune was founded in about 2008, 2009, it was… the idea behind it was that journalism is a public good, that it’s necessary for democracy for people to have access to information and make decisions, and to have that information be accurate.

and the problem with journalism is that there are a lot of market forces that are, pushing journalism and news organizations into places that make it a lot less helpful for democracy. If you’re, if you’re incentivized to have bigger and bigger audiences, you’re incentivized to cover bigger and bigger areas, to cover national and international stories-

[00:03:00] Jeremi Suri: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

[00:03:00] Sarah Adler Hartman: to get the biggest possible audiences. and there’s no longer a place for more local news. and I think you’re seeing that happen all across the country- Sure, sure … where local news organizations are just unable to sustain themselves. And so John Thornton, who was one of the founders of the– He was the founder of The Texas Tribune, started the Tribune as a nonprofit so that you could use philanthropy to subsidize that business model.

And the idea was that communities, in the same way that they fund their libraries and their operas and, and art museums, they should also fund news organizations. and it was one of the first nonprofit news organizations. And then since, the Trib has kind of grown, as an example of, of what’s possible.

There are now hundreds of nonprofit news organizations all over the country.

[00:03:47] Jeremi Suri: Fantastic. Zachary, I know you have a question about this.

[00:03:50] Zachary Suri: One of the problems I think with, or one of the challenges that news organizations often face, particularly for-profit news organizations, but I’m sure it also applies to non-profit news organizations as well, is that when you do good journalism, you often piss off a lot of people, to put it bluntly.

How do you, how do you sustain the goodwill of readership and of donors and others to support this kind of work when you’re doing really hard-hitting journalism that, that hopefully at least, you know, ruffles some feathers?

[00:04:16] Jeremi Suri: Yeah.

[00:04:17] Sarah Adler Hartman: I mean, that’s a real challenge. and there are definitely, you know, like I- as someone who is now responsible for fundraising for a non-profit that does hard-hitting accountability journalism, I look around at my non-profit CEO peers that are fundraising for things that are a lot less controversial, and I’m like-

that looks so much better. And but what’s fascinating is that I talk to them, and even they talk about navigating their own politics. And so, you know, I think part of it is just, like, fundraising is always hard, and fundraising is always really emotional. And so part of it is just you have to figure out how to navigate emotions and politics, in, in fundraising kind of regardless of what you’re fundraising for.

And then within The Texas Tribune, I think one of the most important things is just that we’re always sure that we will prioritize the journalism over any source of funding. so I haven’t had– I mean, I’ve only been CEO since January, so I haven’t had any kind of… I haven’t run into any issues yet in my tenure- Just you wait.

where I’ve had to, where I’ve had to, like, you know, offer to return someone’s money. But I know that my predecessors- Mm-hmm … have run into circumstances- Mm-hmm … where there’s been a donor that’s been really upset about some coverage, and they’ve had to say, “Okay. Well, if you’re that upset, like, you can have your money back.”

Right. And at the end of the day, you have to pick the independence and editorial integrity of the newsroom over everything else, or you have nothing. Mm-hmm. and so… And I think that it, that honestly a lot of people who are willing to be significant donors and supporters of independent journalism respect that backbone more than they want coverage that, you know, doesn’t have a backbone.

[00:05:56] Jeremi Suri: Sure. They want r- they want real journalism- Yeah … not propaganda. And I, I guess that leads to, to my question, which is how do you differentiate really good journalism? I think you, that’s what you publish every day. Mm-hmm. How do you distinguish that from what is not really journalism, but more puff pieces, marketing, things of that kind?

[00:06:15] Sarah Adler Hartman: Well, I mean, I think there’s, one, like what’s the difference in like what’s the actual difference in how that’s produced, and then two, like how do consumers tell the difference- Mm-hmm … between those two things maybe. I think what’s the actual difference is that the rigor that goes into actual reporting is so intense, and there’s, you know, th- every, every fact has to be checked.

when I was in journalism school at Northwestern, if you had one, if, if you had one incorrect fact in the story you could get, what’s called a Medill F, and that was in- that included a misspelling of a, of a name. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. And you would just fail the entire assignment. And I think that, you know, like there’s a certain kind of…

Like, like, journalists who see themselves as part of more like institutional and kind of, you know, legacy journalism I think are all kind of believe in that ethic. Right. That you really have to check every single fact and make sure that, you’re telling stories with nuance and without caricature, and that editors are then like reading the whole story and double-checking everything.

And for, you know, c- pieces that we, t- turn around quickly at the Tribune that are, you know, like when… In, in the aftermath of the, of the, ICE shooting in Houston as an example. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:27] Jeremi Suri: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:28] Sarah Adler Hartman: We were trying to really quickly turn around stories about what was happening in Houston, looking at all the video footage that we could access, and there were like, you know, a team of 10 people looking at that and fact-checking everything and looking at the timestamps in the videos and making sure that all the language that we used, that a couple people reviewed the language that was used- Wow

to talk about what was happening in the videos. Wow. and, and so I think that like that kind of rigor really differentiates what the actual product is. The problem is once something is published on Instagram- Mm-hmm … or once some- an article is published on the internet, I think it’s hard for consumers to be able to tell, to tell the difference- Right

between something like that where, you know, five people have reviewed every word that goes in the story versus something that someone just like made up or typed while they were sitting on the toilet. You know? Like, that looks the same when you’re like reading the words.

[00:08:15] Jeremi Suri: Right. Right.

[00:08:16] Sarah Adler Hartman: And that’s a really hard problem.

I think the journalism organizations need to do a lot better job-

[00:08:21] Jeremi Suri: Hmm …

[00:08:21] Sarah Adler Hartman: showing their homework- Hmm … and showing the rigor of the work so that people can start to tell more of a difference.

[00:08:27] Jeremi Suri: This is like the page The New York Times has started publishing the last few years where they actually talk to the journalists-

[00:08:33] Sarah Adler Hartman: Mm-hmm

[00:08:33] Jeremi Suri: about how they did their reporting on a particular issue. That’s what you have in mind, right?

[00:08:36] Sarah Adler Hartman: Well, and like the, The Times has actually done a lot, a lot of work on this. They used to have a, a team in the news organization that was specifically trying to build products and features that promoted trust.

and o- one of my favorite features they built is the ex- expanded byline in The New York Times. Mm-hmm. So now for many stories, they’ll have not only the byline and, like, where the story was reported, but they’ll have, like, notes on kind of how it was reported- Right … and the work that they did.

Right,

[00:09:04] Jeremi Suri: right.

Footnotes, which we love as- Yeah … historians, of course. But,

[00:09:07] Sarah Adler Hartman: but, but at the top.

[00:09:08] Jeremi Suri: Yeah. You know? Zachary, you did some of this reporting. You’ve done it in many places, but particularly this summer at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Does, does this resonate with you what Sarah’s talking about?

[00:09:18] Zachary Suri: No, certainly. I mean, the, the transparency of the reporting process, it’s one of the biggest challenges is, you know, you can’t talk…

You can’t, you can’t always make clear all the people you talk to that you didn’t write about.

[00:09:29] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah.

[00:09:30] Zachary Suri: all the perspectives you got that don’t make it into a story. and that often can contribute, or can, contri- can, you know, be in service of people who might want to characterize the work as incomplete or, biased.

but I, I also think that one of the real advantages that news organizations often have, is a sort of really on-the-ground local focus.

[00:09:55] Intro: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:09:56] Zachary Suri: And I’m curious, like, the Texas Tribune takes the state as its sort of, the whole state of Texas as its, beat and its main area of focus, and isn’t a traditional news se- news organization in the sense that it’s not grounded in one particular city or in coverage of one particular community.

I’m curious how you navigate that challenge of not, you know, obviously the, the Tribune has its own, has its big office downtown Austin and a lot of reporters all across the state, but does, does it change the journalism you think to have a statewide focus rather than a, a local focus like a traditional newspaper?

[00:10:29] Sarah Adler Hartman: For what it’s worth, I would actually say that we were very grounded in place and topic when we were founded, ’cause ins- we weren’t supposed to cover all of Texas. We were supposed to cover the State House.

[00:10:39] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:10:39] Zachary Suri: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:40] Sarah Adler Hartman: So it was, we were supposed to cover the State Capitol because if you looked at the press box at the Capitol during the legislative session, it was dwindling beyond repair.

And even now on, you know, Fr- f- at 10:00 PM on a Friday during the- … legislative session, we’ll see, we’ll see what it’s like next year, but, Well, they’re all at

[00:10:56] Jeremi Suri: the bar though. They’re all at the Driskill, aren’t they?

[00:10:58] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah, that’s true. But, but sometimes it’s just a Tribune reporter.

[00:11:02] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:11:02] Sarah Adler Hartman: And, and for, you know, one of the biggest economies in the world, people should be really afraid of that.

Totally. but, but, but anyway, b- back to the kind of like being of, of a place and, I, I, I think that w- when we started out, we were really focused on the State House the state capital- Right … state policy and politics. But what I think becomes problematic and became problematic for The Texas Tribune with that was that when you’re covering state policy and politics, but you are only covering it from Austin, then you are- Right

actually n- not covering state policy and politics well. And to, to cover the State House well, we actually needed to cover more of Texas well, and that’s why we launched the regional team a few years ago, where we actually have regional reporters now embedded in, in, in r- in regions of Texas so they can be on the ground.

And I think part of the misunderstanding of that team was that it was actually, it was supposed to cover, like, it was supposed to explain the state, the state policy and politics to people outside of Austin, when really I think one of the big focuses of the team is to elevate the stories from elsewhere in Texas to the state agenda.

And one of my favorite examples of that is that, you know, like last summer we were, I think we did, like, 35 stories on water use- Right … from all across the state. Yeah, yeah. Right … at a time where the state was considering landmark water legislation. And I think that, you know, a, a lot of our, stories were cited in, in bills, that were passed.

And I think that that’s, like how much we were able to empower lawmakers with the information that they needed to be able to make more informed decisions on behalf of everyone in Texas. Like, that’s also a big part of what, you know, what, what, what it means to embed in places- Sure, sure … outside of Austin, and to, to represent those places in coverage.

[00:12:51] Jeremi Suri: maybe coming at Zachary’s question from the other side, how do you protect against being just the Austin view of the state?

[00:12:58] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah.

[00:12:58] Jeremi Suri: your reporters tend to be highly educated individuals. Mm-hmm. They tend to come from urban environments, right? And, I’ve quite often heard the criticism, I don’t agree with it- Mm-hmm

but I’ve heard the criticism that, you know, The Texas Tribune is not really telling the story of the state-

[00:13:13] Sarah Adler Hartman: Mm-hmm …

[00:13:13] Jeremi Suri: but telling the story of a particular kind of person in the state.

[00:13:17] Sarah Adler Hartman: Mm-hmm. Well, I think, again, like, I think th- that, that, part of that criticism, part of what the regions team was designed to do was to, was to help us solve for the, the legitimate roots at the- Yeah

at the seed of that criticism, you know what I mean? and because I think that’s, it’s, it really, it’s almost impossible to do that if everybody’s based in Austin- Of course, of course … and doesn’t look like the rest of the state of Texas. and so now that we actually have reporters, we have, we actually have a lot of people that aren’t based in Austin.

Mm-hmm. and we have a, we have reporters that are based here obviously, but we also have, we have education reporters in Houston and Waco and Austin. Mm. And we have a reporter in the, i- in the Valley. We have a reporter in the Panhandle. And, and you know, we’re, we’re covering immigration from the Valley.

And I think that, like, th- the fact that we have reporters that are from those places on the ground in those places does a lot to make sure we have a more nuanced perspective- Sure … in the report.

[00:14:10] Jeremi Suri: Sure, sure. Zachary?

[00:14:12] Zachary Suri: I’m curious also, you know, one of the things The Tribune seems to really pioneered are these kind of partnerships between nonprofit newsrooms.

You know, I worked at the– at NPR’s Texas newsroom in Austin for a summer two years ago, and a lot of the stories were collaborations or, or the team that I was working on often highlighted Tribune work, et cetera. I’m curious if you can speak to that a little bit, like what it looks like as a s– as, as the big name, politics, publication in the state to support a lot of, local reporting or incorporate that kind of local reporting in your work as well.

[00:14:44] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that, you know, a- again, part of the reframe of a news organization being a nonprofit and journalism being kind of public infrastructure or public good- Mm-hmm … means that it’s our job to make sure that the report- that we can use philanthropy to subsidize the creation of reporting, and then make sure that reporting gets as far as it possibly can.

and so we do a lot of things with that reporting counter to, what, you know, a business model would incentivize us to do- Hmm, hmm … as an example. So we have, like, to, to your point, all of our reporting is free to be published by news organizations all across the state of Texas. Right. So a newspaper that can’t afford to have anybody covering the State Capitol can publish any of our reporting, and they can run it in their newspaper, and they can run ads next to it, and they can- Right

make more money that way.

[00:15:27] Intro: I love that. I love that.

[00:15:28] Sarah Adler Hartman: and so that allows for those news organizations to be able to, to keep supporting themselves. And we get to reach community members there that might not go to texastribune.org, but will open up their newspaper- Right … because that’s the relationship- Right

that they have. and we hope that they see that it comes from The Texas Tribune. We hope that that means that they recognize our brand, and that one day they might go to texastribune.org, so that we can continue to build a r- build the, build the relationship with them and inform them, and hopefully one day maybe they’ll toss us five bucks and, and, you know, pay back into the system.

but, you know, a big part of our, of how we measure success is in how far that journalism goes, and we measure that across all platforms, including the platforms that we’re not monetizing. And that also goes to, you know, now that we’re in this new information ecosystem where, you know, last year we had 30 million unique visitors come to the website for The Texas Tribune over the course of the year.

About half of that traffic came from Google- Wow … Google search. A lot of people asking questions about Texas. Sure. And we were… You know, because we don’t have a paywall, we, are, like, very well kind of, you know, We’re, we’re, we’re, we’re a great source of news for Google to, to serve- Sure … because people can see the coverage without a paywall.

Right. and that… And, and we have a v- a very big audience relative to other kind of statewide, news organizations, especially organizations that specifically cover policy and politics. but all, like all news organizations, we’re seeing significant declines in Google Search referrals because Google now has those summaries they put at the top- Right

of the page- Right … that say, you know, that, that summarize the answer, and then you don’t need to click through to the news organization anymore. Right. Often

[00:17:13] Jeremi Suri: inaccurately, actually. Right?

[00:17:16] Sarah Adler Hartman: It’s, like, I actually think it’s not inaccurate that often. Like, I think that it’s, The, The New York Times did a kind of assessment of this and said that it was inaccurate, like, 2% of the time, but 2% of a massive number is a massive number.

Yeah, exactly. but r- E- e– Not– But, like, even if you, you know, are like, “Okay, it’s accurate ninety-eight percent of the time,” I think that, you know, we’re measuring how often we’re appearing in those, in those AI summaries and also counting that as part of our kind of public good because if you didn’t have the Texas Tribune’s reporting to support that summary, it would likely be based on Reddit.

[00:17:48] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:17:49] Sarah Adler Hartman: Right. You know? Right. Which is also pretty terrifying.

[00:17:51] Jeremi Suri: That’s true. That’s true. Go ahead, Zachary.

[00:17:54] Zachary Suri: Oh, I, I didn’t have a specific question, but I, I think that, you know, the, the challenge of AI is, is one that I’m sure you guys have been thinking through probably more thoroughly than other nor- news organizations that might be still wedded either to a print model or to a kind of daily paper model.

I, I’m curious what you see the steps forward being for those kinds of news organizations and for yourself, you know, addressing these challenges that AI poses and potentially new opportunities as well.

[00:18:19] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah, of course. I you know, see AI as one of the, you know, biggest risks and opportunities for journalism in my lifetime, both.

and I think that it’s really easy to spend a lot of time focusing on the risks, and there are a ton of them. I am not sure… I, I, I don’t think that, playing defensively with AI is gonna buy us a whole lot as an industry. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I think that it’s w- the, the gains from, like, trying to, like, be first to market on what the opportunities are and how we can figure out what the, w- how we can actually use AI to fundamentally reshape the economics of how journali- how, how journalism is produced, and therefore how many communities all across the state of Texas and all across the country can now possibly afford investigative and accountability journalism, especially communities that frankly don’t have it at all anymore.

Like, how might we use AI to solve for some of those kinds of problems? Right. Instead of focusing on, you know, the kind of, you know, very urgent problem of, you know, massive traffic declines that we’re also, that I’m also spending a lot of energy thinking about, but I’m, I’m trying to make sure that we’re, we’re kind of equally and appropriately focused on what some of the opportunities are.

I’m very, bullish and optimistic that if we figure out how to actually empower journalists with enough technical understanding- Mm-hmm … of how this stuff works, that we w- I think should be able to use the technology for journalistic purposes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that, that will actually make journalists’ lives easier, that will make it easier for us to produce higher quality journalism for more communities at scale.

you know, w- a- a- and I, I think this also comes from the fact that I, you know, have a technical background. I built all the software for the company that I started. I was the CTO. throughout my career in journalism I’ve, I’ve worked on the technology side. so I also think it helps that I, you know, have, like, spent plenty of time vibe coding- Sure

my own products. Sure. Sure. And so I’m ver- I’m, like, more familiar with how this technology works, I think, than most people in my position.

[00:20:34] Jeremi Suri: Sure. Sure, and that’s unique for someone in your role, isn’t it?

[00:20:36] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah. I, I, I think it definitely is. and so right now at the Texas Tribune, you know, we’re navigating this like any newsroom, and there are a lot of people in the newsroom that are very skeptical of the technology.

I’m not, like, making anybody use AI- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … who doesn’t wanna use it, but there are also a lot of people that are really innovative and experimental. And, you know, we have a reporter in Waco who vibe coded a tool to, get the logs from the McLennan County Jail- Hmm … and build a database of ICE detainees for reporting purposes.

I’m like, “That’s really cool.” That is. That is. He wouldn’t have been able to do that with- without a team of engineers previously. Yeah. And, like, how might we think about what the possibilities could be like that? you know, we’re… We have tons of ideas and not enough resources always at the Texas Tribune.

How can we think about technology as enabling us to, to do some of those things- Right, right … that previously we couldn’t have imagined- Right … actually doing?

[00:21:33] Intro: Right.

[00:21:34] Sarah Adler Hartman: and, and how can we now build products that previously we assumed the audience was too small to allow for that product t- to be built? Like, the costs of building new products is now so low- Right

that we can build products for more, for smaller… W- W- We can build more bespoke products for smaller audiences now that I think could actually serve people news, in a way that they need. and, you know, I, I would argue that one of the problems with news organizations in general is just that, especially if you look at, like, the format of the article, like, who is that even for?

Right. You know, like, when you think about, like, who the Texas Tribune audience is, we serve so many different kinds of people with so many different needs, and the article is, like, trying to serve all of them and serving none of them quite well enough.

[00:22:23] Jeremi Suri: Right. Yeah. Well, and, and I guess that was sort of the, the question I wanted us to come to.

I mean, what is the purpose of journalism, especially local and state journalism, in 2026 or in 2030, right? I mean, traditionally, we think of journalism as, one, being a fourth branch of government, right? Mm-hmm. A check on the bad behavior, the Woodward and Bernstein story, right? And, you know, uncovering Nixon’s lawbreaking.

We also think about it as sort of the way my grandmother thought about the newspaper, providing, you know, the movie times- … basic information, coupons that she could take- Mm-hmm … to the grocery store. So, you know, b- daily life practices. Obviously, in both of those cases now, there are alternatives.

[00:23:01] Sarah Adler Hartman: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:02] Jeremi Suri: Not necessarily better alternatives- Mm-hmm

but we don’t use the news- the newspaper to find out movie times. Mm-hmm. And, there are other ways to hold officials accountable. Maybe they’re not sufficient. So, so what is the role of, of journalism in this moment?

[00:23:15] Sarah Adler Hartman: What other ways do you think there are to hold officials accountable?

[00:23:18] Jeremi Suri: Well, I mean, many of the things you described, right, other individuals are doing on their own.

Mm. You don’t need to be, you don’t need to be a journalistic entity, right? Some of the most interesting insights that we’ve gained on whatever the topic is, whether it’s ICE, DOGE- Yeah … whatever it is, it’s, it’s the, you know, the, the young kid in his- … or her, garage-

[00:23:38] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah …

[00:23:39] Jeremi Suri: you know, doing the kind of coding you just described.

Mm-hmm. I guess that is a kind of journalism, but it’s, it doesn’t have to be done by The New York Times or the Texas Tribune- Yes … necessarily, right?

[00:23:47] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yes. I was talking to somebody recently who said, you know, “It’s really amazing to see kind of, like, the, the democratization of, of journalism in so many ways.

Many more people are empowered now to become reporters, but when everyone’s a reporter, you really learn- Right … to miss editors.” Yeah. And I thought that that was a really good way of kind of explaining- I agree … like, what the purpose of a journalism organization is. And, like, reporting is critical, and you’re on the ground, and you’re telling stories, but what editors do is they look at the, like, the stories that you’re telling comprehensively and, like, h- how, how r- representative are you of different viewpoints, and how fair are you being?

And they are really important checks on, like, what the overall arc of the story is. Mm-hmm. And I think one of the biggest problems is that, like, that’s what people, like, news people believe about journalism organizations. But- And that w- that only really works if people are, if readers are completionists.

[00:24:51] Jeremi Suri: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:24:52] Sarah Adler Hartman: Like, you have to- Yeah … in order for me to, for, for my argument for the fairness of the Texas Tribune to be, I, I get that that article didn’t cover that angle, but, like, over the course of all of the Texas Tribune reporting, we cover that. You just didn’t read those five stories that covered that angle.

But, like, that’s not a fair expectation of readers. And so I think part of the problem is, how can we deliver to someone a more complete view of an issue than they might get in, in a slice of any article? And that’s where I think AI actually does a really good job. Mm. If we can figure out… Because, like, what AI can do is give you the context- Yeah

you need across all the reporting to understand something. You know what I mean? It, it, it unders- it can meet you in your context level, which is something that we’ve never been able to do as journalists before. Right.

[00:25:43] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:25:43] Sarah Adler Hartman: but is necessary to cover for that problem.

[00:25:46] Jeremi Suri: Yeah.

[00:25:46] Sarah Adler Hartman: You know?

[00:25:47] Jeremi Suri: I, I… And maybe it’s the same way, or different way of saying what you’re saying, but I would’ve put it that it’s more about the interpretive work that an editor does, right?

Mm-hmm. I mean, there is the just the facts element of reporting. Mm-hmm. And that’s probably where AI can do a lot of the shoe leather work, right? Mm-hmm. Especially if we’re dealing with large quantities of legislative records or- Mm-hmm … data of one

[00:26:09] Sarah Adler Hartman: kind. AI is driven by people still. Like, I also want to be clear- Right.

Of

[00:26:11] Jeremi Suri: course …

[00:26:11] Sarah Adler Hartman: that I’m talking about, like- Of

[00:26:11] Jeremi Suri: course.

[00:26:12] Sarah Adler Hartman: Of- … you know, AI as people tools, not AI as, like, autonomous agent-

[00:26:15] Jeremi Suri: Right. Right … doing accounting. You… Well, you could have a bit of both, right? Yeah. but I guess it seems to me the role of an editor is, is yes, is are you telling the, you know, the full story?

But also the editor is the one who’s saying, “Wait, what does this really mean?”

[00:26:29] Zachary Suri: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:26:29] Jeremi Suri: Are we getting at the core of the story?” Right? I mean, the, the famous accounts of Ben Bradley at The Washington Post is constantly pushing his reporters, “What is the real story here?” Mm-hmm. “Don’t just tell me what you’re finding.

What’s really there?” And I fear that in a world where we have citizen journalism in the way- Mm-hmm … we do, that we’re uncovering a lot of bits and pieces here and there, but we’re often missing the bigger story.

[00:26:52] Intro: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:52] Jeremi Suri: I think we struggle with that. We miss it in part also because there are so many stories out there.

Yeah. What is the story for Trump that we should tell? Which story, right? What is the story for the 2026 election, right? Mm-hmm. There are a lot of different things going on at the same time. And at some point, right, an editor has a point of view. They have a perspective on this, right? That it’s not that they are biased to be left or right, but they have an interpretive way of thinking about what stories are, what their audience should care about.

at some level, I think- Yeah … you kind of have to own that,

[00:27:23] Sarah Adler Hartman: right? And what, what altitude are you- Yeah … looking at it? Yeah. Like, I think that there’s also a question of, you know, it’s really hard It’s hard for any one person to do any of this by themselves. Right, right. And that’s also why an institution is, like, bigger than any one person’s perspective.

It’s bigger than any one person’s, like, level of altitude or any one person’s work or bias or anything else, and that’s also something that’s really helpful. You know? Like, it can stand the test of time in a way that a person can’t.

[00:27:48] Jeremi Suri: Right, right. So at some level, The Texas Tribune, the story is about is the government serving the people, right?

Mm-hmm. That, that is your fundamental interpretive frame, right? That’s what you care about, right?

[00:28:00] Sarah Adler Hartman: Well, I, I think it’s both. Is the government serving the people? How can we check on that? And what information does the government need in order to- Uh-huh … make the decisions that they’re making? Both. Like, I think that…

And, and when we talk about our audience at The Texas Tribune, we actually talk about our professional audience and our civilian audience, our professional audience being the people who read The Texas Tribune for their jobs, a lot of whom- Right … are politicians- Right … or staffers or people who… Or lobbyists or- Good point, good point

or, or, frankly, and, like, people whose jobs are impacted by the government, like superintendents or CEOs of a rural nonprofit or whatever it is, you know? And then there’s the civilian audience, people that are reading, reading The Texas Tribune in order to be, like, a more informed-

[00:28:40] Jeremi Suri: Right …

[00:28:41] Sarah Adler Hartman: citizen- Right … or vote better or w- whatever, you know?

And, and they have, those two groups have very different needs.

[00:28:48] Jeremi Suri: Sure. Sure, sure. Zachary, actually I, I’m curious your point of view on this since you’ve been a reporter and you also were one of the editors at The Yale Daily News. what do you see as the differences?

[00:29:00] Zachary Suri: I mean, I think, I think that there’s a, really important point in this, which is that the job of the reporter, particularly someone co-covering policy and politics, is not just to report the facts or- Right

ask difficult questions at, press conferences and press gaggles. But the, the real purpose of, of a political journalist is to connect, like, people to politics, and that does go in both directions. You know, the policymaker who’s spending their entire time in a room thinking about pension plan doesn’t necessarily ever have time to actually go out and speak with the people who are impacted by those choices.

and nor do the people who are actually impacted by that, those choices usually know what that person in the room is, is doing. and really the job of a, of a political reporter in that context is to connect the two. and I, I think that that’s where I, I think the sort of impact of technology or maybe the scary part of AI scares me the least actually, is because that’s the kind of work, you know, the kind of on-the-ground political reporting, asking people what they think, asking people how they make decisions, that really has to be done in a human way and by a human being.

and, I think that’s the real value add, when it comes to local journalism. you know, national coverage is super important, and we all rely on, on really good national journalists. but in our local communities to understand, you know, decisions that are being made and how they impact us, we need good local reporters.

[00:30:25] Jeremi Suri: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that’s what success looks like for you, helping people to better understand the issues?

[00:30:31] Zachary Suri: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s also an accountability element there too, though. you know, it important, that, as we were talking about, that a paper have editorial vision because if there’s no, if there’s no sense that, you know, we have meaningful, important interpretive frameworks that we’re viewing these, political decisions and elections, et cetera, through, then there’s not, then, then one can very easily be tricked into repeating the narrative of one particular person in power- Right, right

and ignore the important, the important places where the facts disagree or contradict that narrative. so the sign of kind of constructive element of journalism or editing where you’re constructing a narrative that’s compelling and interesting and nuanced, importantly, that’s really important, and we can’t outsource that as journalists or as editors.

[00:31:20] Jeremi Suri: Right. Right, and just the historian in me says that, all newspapers until recently were founded with an editorial point of view. Often, they were founded by a political party or by a rich guy who had a particular point of view. I mean, the Texas Tribune was founded by a rich guy, too- … but one who wanted a different kind of approach, right?

Yeah. And so I, I think there’s progress in moving away from being, you know, the William Rand- Randolph Hearst newspaper.

[00:31:44] Sarah Adler Hartman: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:44] Jeremi Suri: But there’s also concern about a kinda false objectivity, right?

[00:31:49] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that is always really challenging. It’s, it’s also hard because I think that people, you know, s- it just feels so pers- stories feel so personal.

Yes, yes. Narrative feels so personal. And I still, you know, talk to people who, you know, wanna talk about the, the bias at the Texas Tribune and, and usually I’ll, like, you know, kinda, I’ll, I’ll try to, to push on that so I can better understand, like, where they’re coming from and what they’ve read that, that made them feel that way.

And, and often it’ll be very specific examples that, you know, are s- like, e- either it’ll be, like, a few years old, and they won’t have read the Tribune in several years, or it’ll be, like a very specific example, and you can hear in it the, like, confirmation bias from their own perspective of, like, they read that story looking for the example of our bias.

[00:32:41] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:32:42] Sarah Adler Hartman: You know? Right.

[00:32:42] Jeremi Suri: Or maybe there wasn’t a bias, but it’s their bias. I mean- Mm-hmm … I hear this all the time from people who criticize The New York Times.

[00:32:49] Sarah Adler Hartman: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:49] Jeremi Suri: So they’ll say, “Well, The New York Times,” I, I’ve heard people say it’s too pro-Israel, and I’ve heard people say it’s too pro-Palestine. Oh. And that is usually telling me more about the complainer than it is about the newspaper, right?

[00:32:59] Sarah Adler Hartman: Yeah. Yep, yep. I-

[00:33:01] Zachary Suri: I mean, I think also part of the, part of the lesson here is that objectivity doesn’t come necessarily in, you know, avoiding any kind of narrative- Right … or any kind of through line. Right. But in being willing to approach the same issue and the same politician and the same policy question from many different angles and with many different storylines.

Like, journalism isn’t just a, a day-by-day activity but one that’s pieced together over months and years. And, and being willing to approach and to approach the same issue two, three, four times from different angles and with different perspectives involved is kind of Probably the most important test of objectivity, if we wanna call it that

[00:33:35] Sarah Adler Hartman: I completely agree with that, and I think then we get back to the completionist thing.

Right. You know what I mean? Like, now you’re talking- Right … about, like, really, we c- the best way for us to be objective is to be, is to almost, like, build the collage across lots of- Yep … different perspectives so that you can capture more nuance. But as a reader, the, the, that, that puts a lot of burden on the reader to understand, to, to then engage with all of those different pieces of the collage, you know?

[00:33:59] Jeremi Suri: Right. Right.

[00:34:00] Sarah Adler Hartman: Which is part of the challenge.

[00:34:02] Jeremi Suri: So, so I guess the, the question I wanted us to close on, and it’s led to this, beautifully. You’ve, you’ve given us so many insights here, Sarah, and, and how things work and how you, how one thinks this through. is The Texas Tribune a model for other states? I, I think one has to say it’s been a success.

In the 15 years I’ve lived in Austin, I’ve become so much better informed about what happens in this state, particularly what happens in the legislature, but elsewhere, through The Texas Tribune. And I find in my research, I’m coming back to it in part ’cause it’s not a gated … source, but also because a lot of the reporting stands the test of time, right?

And I’m sure when we look back and write the history of the 2026 election, regardless of what happens in our governor’s race and Senate races, The Texas Tribune’s reporting is gonna be a main primary source for us. So, so I think it’s been a success, there’s no doubt. is it a model for other states? So many states, so many cities, where Zachary is, for instance, in Connecticut, right, they struggle to have even mediocre coverage of day-to-day news.

is this a model?

[00:35:08] Sarah Adler Hartman: I think that the problem is that The Texas Tribune was a model 16, 17 years ago- Mm … and has been a model for 17 years, and now that model is 17 years old.

[00:35:23] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:35:24] Sarah Adler Hartman: And so-

[00:35:25] Jeremi Suri: Spoken like a tech entrepreneur, right? That’s ancient history for you.

[00:35:28] Sarah Adler Hartman: It is ancient history in the information ecosystem now.

You know, like, so much has changed in 17 years. We are now- I’m not even sure

[00:35:34] Jeremi Suri: it’s history. I’m a historian.

[00:35:35] Sarah Adler Hartman: We are now in a, like, totally new world. And so I think that the challenge in front of The Texas Tribune now- Yeah … is that I think we are in such a, relative to so much of the news industry, in such a position of privilege with the, with the resources that we have and the fantastic talent that we have and the faith that, like, readers and the rest of the news industry puts in The Texas Tribune.

I think we are uniquely positioned to become a model again, but I think that’s gonna take a lot of, creativity and innovation, and we have to be very willing to change, a lot of how we do things- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … to, like, reimagine what the model needs to be for the next 17 years.

[00:36:22] Jeremi Suri: If, if I could push you, in addition to AI, you’ve talked about that eloquently, what are some other areas you see creativity coming in?

[00:36:30] Sarah Adler Hartman: I mean, I think we need a lot more creativity in, in how we make money and revenue. I think that the, you know, it’s really helpful to subsidize our business model with philanthropy, but we are still subsidizing a failing business model. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And as somebody who comes from a for-profit business background, the lack of recurring revenue in a nonprofit is terrible for my health and-

my sleep habits. it makes it impossible to plan. It makes it impossible to grow. Yeah, yeah. So you have to re-earn your growth- Right … year over year. And so I, I think we need, at like, you know, this, and this is a longer kind of cultural thing in news organizations, but I think that, like, you know, there’s always been the…

Oh, news organizations have been continually trying to, like, reimagine how you can make money in a way that doesn’t feel, like, truly dirty, and, especially to journalists. And, and I think that we need to a- approach revenue with real creativity as well.

[00:37:34] Jeremi Suri: Yeah. No, that makes sense. Zachary, what are your thoughts on this?

[00:37:37] Zachary Suri: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the, the truth is that the changes in technology will, I think will make people crave, like, real interesting, creative human stories more than ever. and also, I mean, at the– at a very basic level, like, the new technology, AI language models in particular, need that kind of material, as the sort of, input, for what they do.

so I guess I’m optimistic at the very least that there would demand for this kind of writing. Whether, whether it can be monetized or not, I’m not necessarily in the best position to say. but I’m also hopeful. I think there are a lot of young people every year who are fascinated by and, and passionate about engaging in this industry and becoming journalists.

that’s really hopeful, and I think many of them are taking huge pay cuts to do it, but they really care about the work, and, and that’s really important, and we, we shouldn’t discount it.

[00:38:28] Jeremi Suri: Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the lessons over millennia of human history is that human beings crave reporting about themselves.

There’s no society we have found that doesn’t have that in one form, and much of what we look at as history today was initially journalistic reporting. Herodotus- Mm-hmm … Thucydides, right? They were writing contemporary accounts of their world. Mm-hmm. They were telling the stories of the good and the bad, all around them.

So I think you’re right, Zachary. I think there’s something within us as humans- Mm-hmm … that craves reading about this and producing it in, in one way or another, and, it’s just a matter of figuring out what the right media is for that. I guess just to close us out, Sarah, what are you most excited and optimistic about?

[00:39:14] Sarah Adler Hartman: Honestly, Zachary, it’s kind of what, what you said. Like, I think that there’s so much… it, it’s really interesting. When I talk to people, a lot of what I’ve been doing for the past year, my- s- since I started in January, is just going on a listening tour all over Texas with people who have been involved in The Texas Tribune and some people that haven’t yet, and you can feel a real kind of generational divide.

Like, a lot of the, a lot of the older people that I talk to are feeling really concerned- Yeah … existentially concerned- Yeah … about a lot of things. And I, and a lot of the younger people that I talk to, this is, th- their whole life experience has been in a world that is unrecognizable to some of the older people that I talk to.

Mm-hmm. Like, their whole- the whole worldview that has shaped their perspective on the world, and they still remain really hopeful about their own empowerment and agency. And I think if we can, like, fan the flames of all the- Right on. Right on … like, young and hopeful people who, who still believe that, that we can, like, t- make the world a better place, like, I think that’s, that’s the whole, the whole thing.

[00:40:25] Jeremi Suri: Totally. Totally. You know, you, you have to get in the game. Yeah. And I do think there are a lot of young people who wanna get in the game- Yeah … one way or another, and, it’s a good moment to remind everyone listening to this that it’s time to vote. in Texas, we start voting on October 19th, and, th- throughout most of the country, early voting is starting not in November, but in October.

So we do hope everyone is voting and being a part of the process, reading The Texas Tribune and other news sources as, as they vote.

[00:40:53] Sarah Adler Hartman: Be informed and engaged.

[00:40:55] Jeremi Suri: Exactly. Show up. Show up. Sarah Adler Hartman, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a real pleasure.

[00:41:02] Sarah Adler Hartman: Thanks to y’all. It has. This has been so fun.

[00:41:04] Jeremi Suri: And I hope everyone will look to The Texas Tribune and start reading it assiduously, as, as Zachary and I do.

[00:41:10] Sarah Adler Hartman: Please do, and become a member.

[00:41:10] Jeremi Suri: And become a member.

[00:41:11] Sarah Adler Hartman: Right. Texastribune.org/support.

[00:41:13] Jeremi Suri: You know, we’re not supposed to advertise- … but we can talk about The Texas Tribune. They are associated with the university.

Please contribute to The Texas Tribune. I- everyone should. Even a dollar a month makes a difference, right?

[00:41:23] Sarah Adler Hartman: Huge difference.

[00:41:24] Jeremi Suri: Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Zachary, of course, for your insights. it’s fun to talk about this, isn’t it, Zachary?

[00:41:29] Zachary Suri: Yes, definitely.

[00:41:30] Jeremi Suri: And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners and loyal subscribers to our Substack for, joining us for this week of This Is Democracy.