This is Democracy – Episode 325: Monuments and History

[00:00:22] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of “This Is Democracy!” This week, we are going to talk about the 250th anniversary of our country, 250 years since the Declaration of Independence, and we’re gonna talk in particular about monuments and the ways we mark and design our built environment around that history to reflect values and ideas and experiences.

And, we are really, very fortunate to be joined today by a friend, a former student, a great scholar, and recent author of her second book, second published book. I know she’s written other books too that are coming out. and this is, Dr. Vaneesa Cook. Vaneesa, thank you for joining us today.

[00:01:07] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Thank you for having me

[00:01:09] Jeremi Suri: We of course have Mr. Zachary Suri on as well. How are you, Zachary?

[00:01:13] Zachary Suri: I’m doing well. Good afternoon

[00:01:15] Jeremi Suri: Dr. Vaneesa Cook received her PhD, in US History at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. she’s the author of “Empire and Liberty,” which is her new book that we’re gonna talk about today, “The Tied Histories of Two American Landmarks.”

Before this, she wrote her first book, which was spectacular. this is a spectacular book too, but I have a deep affection for her first book, “Spiritual Socialist: Religion and the American Left,” that was published by the University of Pennsylvania Press. Her most recent book, “Empire and Liberty,” is available in all good bookstores today.

It was published by Beacon Press. Vaneesa has also written articles on social movements, religious thought, politics, protest activity. She’s written for “The Washington Post,” for “Dissent,” for “Religion and Politics,” and many, many other places. So we’re really, very fortunate to have an opportunity to talk about, this broader topic with Vaneesa and to, pull out some of the real, unique insights in, her book.

I, thought we’d start, Vaneesa, with just a very basic question. your book, “Empire and Liberty,” which really builds a larger history of American society around the Statue of Liberty and, the Empire State Building. Why did you write this book? Clearly, these are monuments people have written about before.

Why did you write this book now?

[00:02:35] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Well, as a US historian, I definitely knew of the narrative of the tensions between empire and liberty that have existed throughout US history since the founding, becoming an empire across the continent and then more globally after 1898. so I knew that narrative from researching and teaching US history for so many years.

But then I had this eureka moment a few years ago when I realized that there are these two landmarks in New York City that I’ve been fond of my whole life, the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty. And, I had the idea of writing this dual biography, if you will, through the, you know, the reception, conception, reception of these monuments.

And when I realized like, oh, one represents empire and the other represent liberty or symbolizes those two concepts, it really excited me that I could use this novel format of telling that, US history narrative of empire and liberty through these two landmarks. And so that was the start of the book.

and I, know that US historians or historians more generally, that’s not a new story for them. You know, we know that story, and we teach it and write about it often. but I think the general public still doesn’t really think of the United States as an empire, or doesn’t know how long that story has been going on.

And, you know, maybe they don’t know about that, effort to reconcile empire and liberty throughout history.

[00:04:10] Jeremi Suri: Before we get to Zachary’s question, I just wanna follow up. What, do you mean by empire when you say the United States is, an empire?

[00:04:17] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Well, from the very beginning, even during and right after the American Revolution, the Founding Fathers like Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, they all talked about this sort of mission to extend, American control of the North American continent, what we know of now as the continental United States, from the Eastern Seaboard, you know, through, pushing the frontier further westward to the Pacific.

And so that was in their minds from the late 1700s, and they started to execute that plan, into the 1800s with things like the Louisiana Purchase, et cetera. And then at the end of the 1800s, there were these opportunities to start to expand as a global empire. there were, you know, there was talk about annex- annexing Hawaii in the late 1800s.

But then the war of, 1898 is really what, transformed the United States into a global empire within a matter of months, fighting the Spanish and then controlling, former Spanish colonies in Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines, and then also just taking Hawaii, as well, ending that, debate over whether to do that.

And then all of a sudden, the United States and the Americans had to deal with, you know, how do we reconcile empire, being a global empire, which had existed, you know, other empires had existed and competed with the United States. but how do we still maintain our dedication to liberty when we’re controlling these other territories around the world?

[00:05:55] Jeremi Suri: Mm-hmm. Zachary

[00:05:57] Zachary Suri: it’s interesting to me that, unlike the sort of typical histories as you described it, the way that historians would describe both these aspects of empire and liberty in American history, that these aren’t just descriptive terms, these are aspirations that Americans set forth. You know, es- these are monuments.

what do you think it means for a country to aspire to both liberty and empire at the same time?

[00:06:20] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: yeah. So a lot of the f- the, you know, what we would call the typical found- Founding Fathers term- terminology. Jefferson even coined the phrase “empire of liberty” to have this distinctive way of thinking about the United States and how it might balance these two seemingly opposite concepts, because empire is about control, you know, that’s the denotation of that word.

and liberty is about liberating people from control and, and from authority. and so there has been this effort to do that throughout history. I think that what’s fascinating to me, and, and one of the points that I wanted to get across in the book, is that empires in history, throughout human history, have not been new.

That’s not unique, right? There have been so many powerful empires throughout history that have risen and fallen, and there have been so many strong militaries that have come and gone. but I think what is unique is the dedication to liberty part. So the United States being an empire I don’t think is anything exceptional, but being dedicated to liberty is what makes it exceptional, even if it’s, you know, been unfulfill- unfulfilled, and limited at times.

[00:07:36] Jeremi Suri: That seems like a good place to go to your, your first chapter and really where you open the book, with, the Statue of Liberty and, its, its build, its construction in France, its arrival in the United States. why is that story important today? Why, why does the Statue of Liberty stand out for you, especially in a time when there seems to be a lot of sentiment against immigrants and against opening our borders?

Why, why do you see this as so important?

[00:08:03] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: I think the story of the Statue of Liberty and why France in particular wanted to gift it to the United States in the 1800s is important because, it shows that the rest of the world had their eyes on the United States, and they were really admiring the United States for being able to maintain a republic since the late 1700s.

And during the US Civil War, you know, that was up in the air that, you know, people were watching to see whether the nation would break apart, if the Republic would stand or fall. You know, Lincoln had that in his rhetoric as well. but the world was watching, and after the US Civil War came to a close, the Republic continued, and also liberty was extended to more people, you know, after, emancipation and the vote, the vote being extended to former slaves.

There was a celebration among French Republicans, people like Édouard Laboulaye, who had long admired the United States, and he was a political theorist in France and considered himself a real friend of the United States. he loved Lincoln, and he really wanted to, wanted to celebrate Lincoln and mourn his death as well.

He sent a, he sent a medallion to Mary Todd that was, a, you know, a token of his appreciation for what Lincoln had done to preserve the Republic. but then he talked about this idea of a large statue that, you know, the French, his, his circle of Republican friends in France might gift the United States.

And it was important because I, I don’t know if jealous is the right way, maybe admiration’s the better word, but these French Republicans really wanted a republic in France, but they had not been able to maintain it. And in the 1860s, they were under aa monarchy again. So I think that they were really caught up in this moment of seeing the US Republic endure, and that’s where the initial idea for the Statue of Liberty, and that tie of friendship between France and, and America, that’s what that, that’s where that came from.

[00:10:07] Jeremi Suri: Zachary?

[00:10:08] Zachary Suri: And how is this, how did this statue become such an iconic piece of Americana as well as such an important symbol of American life? I mean, we forget about it because we’re all so used to the story, but it is kind of remarkable that a statue that is built in a foreign country and is given as this sort of gesture by another society becomes such an important part of our identity.

[00:10:29] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah. And I talk about how, you know, Americans weren’t so sure that they wanted it, to be honest. I found some, even some humorous editorials, and opinion pieces in newspapers where, Americans were saying, “Hey, we don’t know that we’re living up to this grand gesture that you’re giving us, and you want us to pay for the pedestal,” you know, and that was part of the deal.

And so it took a lot longer to get the ball rolling on raising funds for the pedestal that she eventually was raised upon, you know, as, as the sculptor Bartholdi was finishing up the statue in Paris. but I think onceshe arrived in New York City and, and there was the dedication day in 1886, I think immediately American, the American public started to, give it meaning, to, to take that symbol and give it their own meaning.

And, and that’s why she means so many different things to different people. I think that’s why, you know, immigrants coming over, gravitated towards the symbolism of this new opportunity and, and more freedom in this land of opportunity than they had had in their– in Europe or wherever they were coming from.

So I think the fact that, the statue could take on so many different meanings individually and collectively, but also shed light on the hypocrisy too, and I talk a lot about the limits of liberty and how people criticize the statue. Even if they loved the statue and wanted to believe in the promise of liberty, they felt left out of that promise.

And so you had women protesting on the dedication day, the Statue of Liberty in this form of a woman when women in the United States couldn’t even vote. You had African Americans writing, saying this was a sham, this was an insult to them because they didn’t have, the full extension of liberty.

Asian Americans wrote about how they were also insulted by it. and so I guess I didn’t realize how much criticism the statue took as sort of a lightning rod for these debates, but that was certainly, part of the story, and even occupying the island, Liberty Island, by protest groups, in the 20th century as well.

[00:12:47] Jeremi Suri: So you give us a really, compelling account of, of how central the Statue of Liberty is to these debates about liberty, and, concerns about liberty in the late 19th and of course through the 20th century. And as you point out, its placement in an area where immigrants in large numbers are coming in really brings this to the fore.

just four decades or so, four or five decades after the placement of the Statue of Liberty, in the Hudson River, we then have the building not too far away, I think it’s a couple miles away, you say maybe five miles away, of the, Empire State Building. And, interestingly, this is a project that’s pushed, according to you, by, Al Smith, the, Democratic governor of New York, FDR’s predecessor.

tell us that story and why do you see this as a building to empire and not a building to liberty?

[00:13:41] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah. So John Raskob, who was a, you know, well-known, financial expert, in the 1920s, he made a lot of money and was also part of the Democratic Party’s financial engine as well. after Al S- after Al Smith lost the election to Herbert Hoover, in 1928, Al Smith kind of thought his political career might be over, and was a little bit, looking around for something else to do.

Well, John Raskob came to him and said, “Hey, don’t worry, Al. I have this project that, you’d be perfect for. I’m going to build the largest skyscraper in New York City, and you’re the perfect person to promote it,” because of Al Smith’s long-term, association with the city, being governor for so long and growing up there.

And so they partnered on this project, in the late 1920s, right before the Great Depression. It was– The plans were announced, in fact, not too long before that, stock market crash in October of 1929. But they had to continue with it or did continue with it, and the, the, the building was raised in a little over a year.

And so even though the Statue of Liberty took a long time to come to fruition, the Empire State Building did not. That was a very quick build. but it was definitely a symbol of empire. It was in the rhetoric of the promoters like Al Smith. It was in their promotional booklets. he referred to it on opening day on May 1st, 1931.

But I, I got the sense that when I was talking about this book with friends and colleagues when I first started writing it, and I said, “You know, it’s about how the Empire State Building represents empire and the Statue of Liberty represents liberty,” I got some quizzical looks, and people said, “What do you mean the Empire State Building represents empire?”

And I said, “Well, it’s in the name, first of all.” but I guess I had to kind of grapple with that, like why don’t people think of the Empire State Building as symbolizing empire anymore when it was so clearly that was the message that was getting through in 1931 when it opened, and that was definitely the, the intended purpose, that New York City was the hub of the economic power engine of the United States and their economic empire.

but I think that that changed, just like the Statue of Liberty’s symbolism changed over time. The Empire State Building, I think, took on a more romanticized image over the decades, maybe a more innocent image, particularly after the World Trade Centers went up in the early ’70s. and so I do talk about that as well.

Also, you know, when going back to Zachary’s question as well, these two landmarks show up in so many pop culture references, movies, television shows, posters, political cartoons, y- you know, political campaigns. So just that exposure as well, I think, built that iconic status over time. But that image of them changes over time, and I think the Empire State Building going from this, like, hard power, economic power symbol of empire to this more romanticized image in, in romance movies really, is, is a great example of that.

[00:17:01] Jeremi Suri: Well, that was one of the things I really loved about your book, and I think one of the really innovative things you do, and I hope, all of our listeners will read your book to, to, to have this experience as well. Youyou show how these monuments, built in the late 19th and early 20th century, in a sense, they, they change in their meanings in different times.

You have a chapter on the Depression, a chapter on World War II, a chapter on the Cold War, and it seems to me that in each of these settings, these monuments mean something different to people. is, is that an accurate reading, and, and how should one think about that?

[00:17:39] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah, I think going back to the Statue of Liberty and your reference to immigration, for example, that association with immigration built over time. at, at the opening ceremony when the sculptor Frédéric Bartholdi, he was there to help celebrate this achievement, he, he kinda took issue with, you know, over the years with its association with immigration because he intended it as this very generalized symbol of liberty and, and celebrating the republic or republican values.

and so he didn’t want it to be like pigeonholed to just one interest group or one group of people or one meaning. but especially after Ellis Island opened, and that was not open in 1886 as a processing center for immigrants in New York, but once that opened, it’s became so much more clearly connected, you know, being s- being very, very close to Liberty Island, so immigrants could even look at the Lady Liberty as they were, you know, entering, Ellis Island and the processing center.

But the fact that the ships had to come in through the harbor that way, they would… You know, people in Europe who were planning to come over and visit or immigrate here, they would get letters back from relatives who had already come to the United States, and they would tell them, “Hey, look for Lady, Lady Liberty when you’re, when you come in.”

And so they would have this emotional expectation and, you know, there were these, there was this gratitude to finally be in America and be greeted by this statue and, and symbol of liberty. So those generational, meanings I think built over time. The Lazarus poem, the Emma Lazarus poem also made that point, you know, the huddled masses, bring me your huddled masses.

that kind of language also made that connection to immigration clearer. But, you know, there were the French Republicans who didn’t think of immigration in particular when they were coming up with this idea.

[00:19:41] Jeremi Suri: Sure, sure. Zachary?

[00:19:43] Zachary Suri: One of the things that seems so unique about these monuments to me is that they are unlike most of the monuments that I think Americans think of when we think of the great American monuments. you know, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, the war memorials in Washington, the ones that are, were paid for by the state.

These were monuments that were either donated by, you know, a private organization, different country, or, you know, created by a business. And I’m wondering if that’s part of why you were drawn to these two monuments for this book, is that they, they seem to be a little bit more organic or more reflective of, of American values.

Is that accurate at all?

[00:20:28] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah, I think so. I, I never thought about it in those terms, but, definitely some of the speakers at Dedication Day on, the day that Liberty was unveiled in 1886, like Gro- President Grover Cleveland, he made this comment about how, isn’t it great that we have this grand monument now that’s peaceful and represents peace and liberty rather than the warlike memorials that other countries have and celebrate.

And, you know, of course, he just kind of didn’t even mention, you know, the Washington Monument or some of our own, throwbacks to ancient war glory that were existing in the country at the time. But he really made this distinction that the Statue of Liberty was special because she did represent, peace instead of war or, or, or war heroes.

So that was, that– I think that’s why a lot of people s- still gravitate toward her.

[00:21:23] Jeremi Suri: Hmm. Hmm. One of the interesting parts of your book to me, there are many interesting parts, but one is when you talk about around, page 170 or so about the ways in which the Empire State Building gets associated with liberty as well.

[00:21:38] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Oh, yeah.

[00:21:39] Jeremi Suri: the installation of Freedom Lights in 1956. you know, and I, I think of the way, it’s such a convenient, building to light up for different purposes.

So how do you think about that? Is that, is that a disguising of its purpose? Is that an effective use of the monument? I think this is a general question, right? I mean, how should we think of the appropriate uses of monuments in our society?

[00:22:06] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah, that was actually, one of the most surprising discoveries when I was researching and writing this book because when I started out, I thought, “Well, most people think of these two monuments or landmarks separately even though they’re in close proximity to each other.” You know, and I really expected that I would have to make these connections and maybe even force connections between them to compare and contrast or to make these associations.

But when I came to realize about the Freedom Lights that were installed in the 1950s, in the early Cold War years, that connection was being made at that time very, very clearly. So the Freedom Lights were installed and, and they’re not the lights that, you know, the, the different colored lights that we’re used to seeing now at the top of the Empire State Building to celebrate things like the Knicks winning

[00:22:58] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:22:59] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: or whatever

[00:23:00] Jeremi Suri: No, that’s a perfectly appropriate use of the

[00:23:02] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yes, that is– I agree. or often red, white, and blue, you know, will be illuminated at the top. that’s not what we’re talking about. The Freedom Lights were pretty much just four huge beams, like white beams of light that were put at, you know, like headlights or spotlights that were put at the top of the Empire State Building in the 1950s.

And the whole purpose, intended purpose of it was to symbolize freedom, Freedom Lights, in the midst of the Cold War, you know, when the United States was trying to show that it was the true, protector of democracy and liberty around the world and not the Soviet Union. And so there was that bipolar battle over rhetoric and symbolism surrounding things like freedom.

and so I say in the book pretty much the Empire State Building was pressed into service, and recruited into the Cold War in that way. But I found it also interesting that people were– some people were a little upset and thought that the Empire State Building should not be, co-opting the message of the Statue of Liberty, and there were letters to the editor of The New York Times, along those lines where they said, “Hey, why are you pretty much taking the meaning that belongs to the Statue of Liberty?”

And, the, the answer from the promoters of the Freedom Lights was, “Well, you know, back in the 1800s most people arrived in New York by steamship, but now they come in from planes and so it’s more appropriate for them to see the symbol of freedom from the air.” And so they thought the Empire State Building was more appropriate for that. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t really take issue with that. I would, I would like to hear your opinion. I also have, questions about in the book there were, there were concerns about the overuse of the Statue of Liberty, and we’re used to that, right? We see it in insurance commercials and every political ad, right?

But there were, there were people who thought that that was diluting her dignity to be overused, overexposed in, in, in political campaigns or whatnot. So I don’t know. How do you guys, do you think that that affects the dignity of the meaning of these buildings?

[00:25:15] Jeremi Suri: Zachary, what do you think?

[00:25:17] Zachary Suri: I think that’s also part of the point of having a symbol like this or a monument like this, is that it is something that becomes kitschy. But that’s– I, I, I do feel like that’s part of the point of, of having a monument in the first place, is it comes to stand in for so many different things that it becomes ubiquitous to the point that, you know, any American could recognize the Statue of Liberty even though they’ve never– even though many of them have never set foot in New York City or actually seen it

[00:25:42] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Mm-hmm

[00:25:43] Jeremi Suri: And, and I think these, monuments, as you show, they become inspirational, even in ways that their builders did not intend. so the Statue of Liberty, of course, it becomes inspirational for generations of immigrants and remains, I think, one of the preeminent symbols, whether we’re talking about immigrants from Mexico or Eastern Europe or, Vietnam.

And the Empire State Building, despite, as you say, its very corporatist origins, I, I do think it becomes, for many people, as you show, right, a symbol of progress, and if you believe that progress can be good… I mean, it’s interesting, much of your book, we haven’t gotten into this yet, talks about progressive thinkers like Jane Addams and John Dewey.

I know why you do this, because these are people you love, Vanessa.

[00:26:34] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah.

[00:26:34] Jeremi Suri: but, but in, in a way, the business implications for some get, disaggregated from the progressive implications of the building and, and, and that’s how I grew up thinking of the Empire State Building as a symbol of progress, not necessarily empire, but not anti-empire either.

Does that– do you agree with that? Yeah.

[00:26:53] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah, so I was– first I was gonna ask you, because you grew up in New York City, did you– were you drawn to one or the other more so? Did– were they important landmarks for you growing up?

[00:27:06] Jeremi Suri: I mean, in a strange way, I think the Empire State Building is more, built into the everyday, of New Yorkers because it’s in Manhattan and it is also used for business purposes. The Statue of Liberty, you see it, but in terms of visiting it and really thinking about it, that, that’s a tourist activity and most often one would do that when visitors come to New York.

but you could very well be working or living in New York and walk by the Empire State Building or, potentially even go– There used to be a bank in the building and there were offices in the building. So it’s, it, it’s more a part of the everyday, activities, in the city i- in the way that I would say the Capitol Building is in DC but the Lincoln Memorial isn’t.

The Lincoln Memorial is a site of reverence.

[00:27:52] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely also, you know, growing up just two hours west of New York City and going to the city, I would see the Empire State Building a lot more often on the city skyline if you’re just in the general area than, you know, if you’re going to Lady Liberty. but yeah, I think progress and even cooperation as well I would throw in there because, as I mentioned, the Empire Sta- Build- State Building was built so quickly, you know.

And there was a, an engine of money, corporate money behind that. But, the fact that it went up so quickly, I think really spoke to the ingenuity of Americans, but also the hustle and the cooperation that Americans could come together, from all different backgrounds and, and build this. And I, and I, I kinda make that point that maybe even Franklin Roosevelt, noticed that and saw how Americans could work together

[00:28:48] Jeremi Suri: Absolutely. And you make reference, of course, to FDR a number of times, in the book. Zachary, please

[00:28:54] Zachary Suri: curious, what you think, what lessons we can draw from the history of these two monuments as we prepare to mark the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. you know, I’m su- Trump, President Trump has already proposed erecting new monuments, but I think the, the kind of memorializing that most of us are going to engage in in the next, you know, few weeks leading into the 4th of July is not gonna take the form of massive buildings or statues.

But what do you think that this history tells us about, the smaller ways that we memorialize and, and, and, and commemorate our, our history and our, our values?

[00:29:34] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah. So I would say, again, there’s gonna be a lot of patriotism surrounding, you know, the US as an empire and a, a global influencer and a strong military. But I would hope that, you know, the liberty part would not be forgotten or, or underestimated. And I definitely think that we can learn from our history that liberty should not be taken for granted.

Liberty should not be taken for granted. think there’s… When you think about progress, I think the c- there can be an assumption that once liberties are granted or gained or achieved, that they might stay that way. But I think we’ve seen in history, and even in the current moment, that, that’s not the case, that liberty– People can push back on that, and liberties can be, violated and, and limited again and taken away.

So I think the, the message is to, as Americans, I think rededicate ourselves to liberty, and not just see it in terms of ourselves and our individual liberties, but the fact that collectively we have to look out for the liberty of everyone. And so if one group, one group’s liberties are being violated, that should matter to us.

[00:30:45] Jeremi Suri: Hmm. Hmm. H- how do you think in this, you know, very divisive, polarized moment, are, are there ways that you think that these monuments and others can bring people together?

[00:30:58] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: I think so. And I, I think that the, the people, the re- French Republicans and the Americans at the time in the late 1800s knew that the United States might find itself at a crossroads or that they might go through struggles to maintain the republic. there were references to that. you know, Laboulaye said, you know, “Someday I’ll be dead and gone, but hopefully this statue will continue to encourage or inspire Americans and people around the world to, to value liberty.”

So they definitely, I think, had that in mind. It was a way not to just bring Americans together, but the whole world. And I think that the world can put pressure on the United States to live up to that. they have done so i- throughout history in recent times. and I think that they can continue to s- to re- to remind us not to take it for granted, as well.

So… And I, I just wanna say this book is, is a lot about people, even though we’ve been talking a lot about the, the structures and these, you know, inanimate symbolism objects. there are a lot of, vignettes or anecdotes about people connected to either one of the landmarks or if they’ve written about empire or liberty in either positive or negative ways.

So, a lot of well-known historical figures from Henry Ford to Frank Baum to Helen Keller, all the president, you know, from going back to George Washington through Franklin Roosevelt, as you said, JFK. Trump is mentioned because he was partially an owner of the Empire State Building in the 1990s, and there was a lot of controversy about that ownership.

So that, I think vignette is kind of interesting. and then a lot of pop culture references as well, movies like “King Kong,” which helped make the Empire State Building more famous.

[00:32:51] Jeremi Suri: Yes, of course. Of-

[00:32:52] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah. So

[00:32:54] Jeremi Suri: of the great, one of… Sorry, go ahead

[00:32:56] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: no, it’s okay. I just want people to know that this is a story about people connecting to these landmarks.

[00:33:02] Jeremi Suri: Yeah, and I think one of the great strengths of this book is, again, you show how ubiquitous they are in the lives of, of people and in, in different periods. Zachary, just turning to you, I mean, do you, do you think these, these monuments and, and others like them resonate with your generation? Venise has sort- sort of shown how they’ve, over the course of the 20th century, resonated with different generations.

Does it continue to be the case in the 21st century?

[00:33:28] Zachary Suri: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the, the sort of the grandeur and, a- and, scale of these monuments is always impressive to everyone. and I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a young person who goes to New York City for the first time who doesn’t wanna visit either of these two monuments or doesn’t plan to or doesn’t try to.

I, I just, I think that they’re, they’re beyond the point of being symbols. They’re just sort of, places that, that, that are awe-inspiring, and I think that that’s part of what draws people to them is that they have, they have a quality of grandeur that, that, that, that, that draws people to them before they understand or think about the symbolism or the history or the people that are connected to them.

[00:34:17] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:18] Jeremi Suri: Right. And, and I was going to ask both of you to close this really wonderful discussion. I’ll start with you, Zachary, then we’ll give you the last word, Vaneesa. W- what’s the case to listeners to go and look at these monuments again in a world where we can see images of them, you know, on our screens easily?

what, what, what’s the difference in, in just as you described, Zachary, in going and making a pilgrimage in a sense to these monuments, particularly on the 250th anniversary of the, of the Declaration?

[00:34:48] Zachary Suri: Question. I mean, I, I guess one– it’s a small part of what it’s like, but I think I, I went very recently, I think about a year and a half, two years ago, to the Statue of Liberty for the first time, like in person to Liberty Island. and I think one of the most remarkable things to see and, and one of the most powerful things is how many people from around the world, let alone around the country, come just to look at this monument.

And they spend their entire day, for the most part, taking a rocky ferry out into the middle of New York Harbor to see the, this, this, you know, more than a century-old copper statue. And I, I think that’s pretty special.

[00:35:26] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yeah.

[00:35:27] Jeremi Suri: with others. go ahead, Vaneesa, please

[00:35:28] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: I was, I was gonna say something very similar because it might hit a little differently if you were able to just go to Liberty Island by yourself. You know, it might still might be this, you know, im- impressive structure, and then you might be able to reflect on that in a different way.

But, you know, when I’ve gone over on the ferry and been on the island, I had the same impression as Zachary, that just all these people from all over the world taking selfies and group pictures and, and group pictures from every angle because they wanna get it, you know, from every angle. And there’s this happiness and joy that you see on people’s faces when they’re there, and tour guides have mentioned that, that you don’t have to remind people to smile when they’re going to the Statue of Liberty.

I don’t really, I don’t really know why. I don’t really know– I can’t put into words, I guess, why that has that effect on people. maybe people have that thrilling feeling when they’re going up the elevators in the Statue– or in the Empire State Building, and they get to the top. I love being at the top of the Empire State Building as well, and I encourage people to do it.

There’s– even though, you know, you’re above this bustling city, there is, I think, a sense of peace and calm up there, and it’s just a, a wonderful, you know, view of, of the en- the entire city surroundings. But, I think there’s just this feeling of peace and calm when you’re up there as well, which maybe you wouldn’t expect, unless you’re afraid of heights.

[00:36:57] Jeremi Suri: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I can’t resist asking, do you find it romantic? Have you been up there with your husband, Daniel? Do you find it a romantic setting?

[00:37:03] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Yes, I’ve been up there with Dan, I’ve been up there with friends, I’ve been up there with high school groups, I’ve been up there by myself.

[00:37:11] Zachary Suri: Waze

[00:37:12] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: I haven’t been to the 102nd floor yet. That’s not an open air observatory, so I don’t find that quite as interesting. but yeah, I, I definitely love going to the top of the Empire– And, you know, for some reason throughout my life, I’ve always favored the Empire State Building

over the Chrysler Building,

[00:37:28] Jeremi Suri: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:37:30] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: which is also a beautiful art deco design, but, or the Rockefeller Center.

So I’ve never been to the top of any other skyscraper in New York except Empire State Building. also Statue of Liberty. I– In the acknowledgments, I have this little story about going there with my grandfather, and as an eight or nine-year-old, I wanted to go up to the crown, but he said, “Oh, there are a bunch of windy stairs, and it’s rickety, and it’s, you know, whatever,” and he talked me out of it.

So I didn’t, I didn’t go up to the crown until two years ago. My husband and I, got our tickets and went up there, and I was as giddy as a kid, so I loved it. But one of my hopes of writing this book is that the powers that be at the National Park Service will let me go up to the torch, which has been– it’s been closed off to tourism since the, since World War I when it was damaged.

but I know that there must still be a way up there for, like, maintenance, so maybe they will let me go up.

[00:38:28] Jeremi Suri: Well, let’s hope so. Let’s hope when they listen to this, they will do that. this has been a phenomenal episode, particularly because we’ve for the first time, Zachary, I think we’ve combined history with romantic advice on sites for dates and, you know, things, things to do with other people. So showing once again that history is useful in all kinds of ways.

I want to encourage all of our listeners to read, Vaneesa’s wonderful book. it’s titled “Empire and Liberty: The Tied Histories of Two American Landmarks,” and, it’s a book that really rewards, you in, in, in the historical knowledge it provides, but also really a way to think about the moment we’re in right now and what monuments like these and others mean to us, in our society.

Vaneesa, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:39:16] Dr. Vaneesa Cook: Thank you very much. This was great.

[00:39:18] Jeremi Suri: Zachary, thank you for your, insights, as always, and thank you most of all to our loyal listeners and our loyal subscribers to our Substack for joining us for this episode of “This Is Democracy.”