This is Democracy – Episode 323: “Christian Nation”?

[00:00:22] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of “This Is Democracy.”

[00:00:46] Today, we are going to address the phrase Christian nation, a phrase that seems to be more ubiquitous these days, especially around some of the celebrations for the 250th anniversary of the US Declaration of Independence. More and more groups, seem to be claiming that the United States is a Christian nation, while others, dispute that claim.

[00:01:09] Today, we’re going to, address what that claim means, where it comes from, and just get more historical perspective on it so we can make better decisions ourselves as we think about, what the United States is and what democracy means in the 21st century. We are very fortunate to be joined by a friend, former student, and leading scholar of the topic and, religious history and intellectual ideas in general, Dr.

[00:01:35] Daniel Hummel. Dan, thanks for joining us today.

[00:01:39] Dr. Hummel: It’s great to be with you again.

[00:01:41] Jeremi: Daniel Hummel is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, Wisconsin, and he’s also a research fellow in the Department of History at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. His research and writing, as our listeners should know from prior episodes, his research and writing cover Ame- American evangelicals, theology, politics, and culture.

[00:02:01] and Dan has written a number of very important books that we’ve discussed on the podcast and books that I proudly assign to many of my students. Thank you. It’s, my pleasure. They always… Y- your books, Dan, always, showcase, first of all, first-rate research, and they always, provoke a worthwhile discussion.

[00:02:20] Dan’s most recent book, that I highly encourage, everyone to read if they haven’t read it already, “The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation.” And Dan writes very frequently for Christianity Today, New Lines Magazine, The Washington Post, and various other outlets, so he’s clearly one of the very best people to discuss this topic today.

[00:02:45] We’re also joined, of course, by Mr. Zachary Suri. Hello. Good morning, everyone. How are you, Zachary?

[00:02:52] Zachary: I’m doing well. Excited for this discussion

[00:02:53] Jeremi: Yeah, I think we all are. I think we all are. So, so Dan, to get us started, where does this phrase Christian nation come from? What, is the etymology, the history of this phrase?

[00:03:04] Dr. Hummel: Well, it, is a phrase that really took up, steam in the 1970s, and, that’s part of the interesting story is, we really start, debating as a culture the identity of the American nation in a lot of ways when we’re celebrating the 200th anniversary in 1976 and the years around that. And the, term comes, or, People are claiming that America is a Christian nation at a particular historical moment in the 70s, where there is a lot of uncertainty and perceived upheaval in society based around changing demographics and immigration in the country, changing patterns of religion in the country, a sense by many conservatives that the values of the nation that had been with the nation since its founding had been supplanted or thrown in the air in the 1960s and the radicalism of that decade.

[00:04:05] And so you start getting strident writing, sermonizing, and politicians who pick up on this as well that start asserting a distinct sort of Christian identity to America’s founding. And that becomes part of what we tend to call in the 1980s the culture war, sort of a deeper sense of where’s the center of American culture?

[00:04:31] Is it religious? Is it secular? Is it something in between? And what is the future of the country?

[00:04:40] Zachary: That makes sense. I’m, curious, about maybe an earlier phenomenon that seems to be part of this story, which is the sort of moment in American history which I, am not going to have a exact sense of when this is, and I’m sure you can explain to us better.

[00:04:53] But the moment when so many of our sort of founding mottos or ideas shift into or are shifted into a religious frame. I think this is in the early Cold War when we start, when we add “In God We Trust” as our motto instead of E Pluribus Unum, or the addition of “Under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance, do you see that as a similar phenomenon, or is that a, different story?

[00:05:16] Dr. Hummel: Yeah. Thanks for pointing me to those. So I mean, i- in some sense, the, term Christian nation comes about, like I said, in the ’70s, in part because that’s one of the first times that’s actually a question, in culture. So you can go back, certainly to the 19th century, certainly to eras of wartime.

[00:05:34] And you can see a pretty much assumed Christian identity, to the country. Not , Just Christian, but Protestant, identity among American elites that, is so ubiquitous in… You could say, and certainly historians have, documented this, so ubiquitous that it’s not really a question. it’s assumed.

[00:05:55] And when we get to the 1950s, this is, you know, just the era before, you get this strong push toward what, sociologists and historians call, civic religion, which is not necessarily tied to a particular organized, religious body, but is a sense of a qu- a, a sort of quasi-religious way of talking about the nation.

[00:06:17] And, and so the civic religion of the US in the early Cold War is quite Christian. But you can think of that almost as, the, the leaders of that time just resorting to what was sort of, to them, the obvious tools in the toolbox of constructing a civil religion. And so you get the, the reference to, in our money, all has “In God We Trust” on it.

[00:06:42] you get “Under God” added, to the Pledge of Allegiance. You have very overt, sort of, civic religious, pageantry around the swearing-in of a new president, around, you know, various sort of public, functions. and at that point, in, our history, there wasn’t, a, sort of, strong contestation to that.

[00:07:07] We, we start seeing that in the… sort of a reaction to that in the early ’60s. There’s a number of court cases brought to the Supreme Court by, people who found this to be disconcerting in some way, atheists and others who start pushing it back against the ubiquity of prayer, of sort of quasi-religi- or not quasi-religious, but general prayers in schools not linked to a certain denomination, of Bible reading in schools, and things like that, sort of get pushed back in the ’60s.

[00:07:37] but by, but in the 1950s, that is sort of just the assumed, culture, sort of elite culture, in the US. And, we see that ramped up a bit in the ’50s as well because of the sense of global crisis, with, with communism, being seen as the antithesis to a Christian, nation or a Christian culture.

[00:07:57] Communism is atheistic. It, doesn’t value human rights, the way that, Christian culture, supposedly does. So, those contrasts are being made and amplified, through the civic religion at the time.

[00:08:11] Jeremi: And, Dan, there, there was, in the 1950s, this phrase civic religion that you’ve just used, or civil religion was a common phrase.

[00:08:19] is that similar to Christian nation or is that different from Christian nation?

[00:08:23] Dr. Hummel: it, it doesn’t have to be. I think most cultures, have a civil or civic religion. most nations, I should say, have a civil or civic religion. And, you know, there’s a famous, or infamous, saying, quote from E- Eisenhower, in the 1950s, President Eisenhower, who, you know, declares that, the US’s, religion or basis is Judeo-Christian.

[00:08:51] but it didn’t have to be. It could have been something else. and you get a sense there of sort of the way that, c- civil religion works, which is, part of the construction of a nation is you have to sacralize or create sort of transcendent meaning around the unit of the nation. And so, different societies, different nations will be drawing on different sort of, you know, pre-installed, religious resources.

[00:09:15] you can imagine, a Muslim nation would have a much different civil religion than, a, predominantly Muslim nation, pe- full of people who practice Islam would have a different civil religion than the US, which in the 1950s was still predominantly, Protestant. so for the US, it’s been a largely Christian civil religion, but it, doesn’t necessarily, have to be.

[00:09:38] and there’s been a lot of, you know, pushback from theologians and others who find it somewhat distasteful that the US civil religion traffics so much in Christian symbols and, Christian language, when that language and symbols are often being used for things that at least these theologians and pastors and others would see as, as actually quite un-Christian.

[00:09:58] marshaling Christian imagery or symbols to, you know, commit, prosecute wars, or, or implement policies that for various Christians seem very un-Christian. but that’s sort of the nature of, civil religion is, it uses, much more powerful symbols that come out of these, much longer traditions of, of various religions, including Christianity, to make the case or to, gain credibility for the nation, which is often much younger and doesn’t have that, sense of transcendent, value to it, or is trying to sort of rift off of that

[00:10:37] Zachary: That makes sense.

[00:10:38] how does that civil religion, or at least the discourse, of Christianity in American society, as you’re describing it, one that isn’t necessarily inherently theological but more cultural or about civic values, how does that conversation translate into a politics of Christian nationalism or of Christian nationhood, in the ’70s and ’80s and in later decades?

[00:11:03] Dr. Hummel: Right. So a lot of this is, debating i- the history, of the US and various sort of competing interpretations of, America’s founding, in the 18th century, and then the, sort of nature of US society in the 19th century, and then what are those… were the implications of the, history, for the 1980s and after.

[00:11:28] And so, and these, debates are, tend not to be among, professional historians, but between, you could say, amateur historians or historians in, more in the public space, and some, professional historians as well. But, the things under debate here are, to what extent were the Founding Fathers, motivated by Christianity, in founding the US?

[00:11:52] To what extent are the values of, America, as a nation based on Christianity, and the Bible? And then to what extent, can the society sort of diverge from that or become more diverse while- remaining true to that interpretation, of the past. And so by the time you get to the 1980s, you have a lot of, conservative Christians arguing that, you know, the, pressing issues of the day around, gender and sexuality, around, LGBTQ communities, around feminism, are deviations from the Christian tradition of the United States, that they, don’t reflect biblical values, they don’t reflect, broader Christian values, and, and so they must be opposed, because they are i- inherently, un-American, if, America is equated with, Christian.

[00:12:49] You also have in the 1980s, as at least the first half of the 1980s, you have a ramp up in opposition to communism, around the globe, what’s sometimes called the new Cold War, and you have the confrontations between, the US and the Soviet Union. You have Reagan calling, the Soviet Union evil empire, at actually a gathering of the National Association of Evangelicals in 1983, and so there’s obviously a, religious component to that.

[00:13:19] But you also have Reagan, a- and the Reagan administration supporting all types of anti-communist activity in Latin America and elsewhere, and at root of that, or, part of the calculus there, is an understanding of the obligation of a Christian society like the US to be opposing an atheistic ideology, like, like communism.

[00:13:41] so I, think you can… It’s a little more, I think of someone like Lauren Turik, who’s written a lot on the, the sort of evangelical advocacy for human rights in the 1980s as well as they understood human rights, and that was really tied to an idea that, human rights are Christian, and America’s a Christian nation, and so America has an obligation to uphold, human rights, as they understood it.

[00:14:04] So I think you can see implications in both the sort of domestic, sphere a- as well as the foreign policy world.

[00:14:11] Jeremi: A- and so why, Dan, do you think this rhetoric has ticked up again, in recent years? why under President Donald Trump is the term Christian nation being used more frequently, by all kinds of, politicians?

[00:14:27] Dr. Hummel: Yeah, I think there’s a few reasons. I mean, a, reason that would tie back to the 1970s is the US continues to diversify in who is an American in all types of ways that create… Those anxieties that were there in the ’70s are there among those same, demographics of people, Today. And so th-there is a continuing sense among, conservatives, among a lot of conservative Christians, that, the fate of American society is up for grabs, and that, the Christian na- the Christian identity of the US is a real core part of what makes the US exceptional, what makes it, special.

[00:15:08] I think there’s also been this development of this, I mentioned this sort of, like, debate over history that started in the ’70s. That, cottage industry is… I mean, it’s bigger than a cottage industry now. it’s a full-blown, industry. There’s a lot of material. There’s a lot of, media And books that one could read if one were disposed to think of America as a Christian nation, that can really bolster that view.

[00:15:33] And there’s so much of it that you could probably subsist on that and not need to consult other perspectives, if you didn’t want to. And, and so th-that is a, you know, that’s a story that, is part of the polarization of our society today. But there are very big echo chambers that have had decades now to develop, and, and that’s one of them.

[00:15:54] on the, conservative side has been the Christian nation. we sometimes talk about Christian nationalism as, a, sort of political project that comes out of believing that the, US is a Christian nation. And from, you know, grade… Just think of education, from kindergarten through college, depending on which college you go to, you can get that as your primary perspective throughout your entire education.

[00:16:18] And of course, many parents, are interested in that as well. And then the last thing I’ll say is I think, you know, Trump is a unique figure in a lot of ways, but he– the coalition that got him, elected, and competitive in 2016, 2015, 2016, and has remained with him is, you know, obviously a very, eclectic and interesting coalition.

[00:16:42] But, the, evangelical leaders that were early, in supporting Trump and have been cons-mo- the most consistent in supporting him have come out of sectors of the American church that are really primed to think of the US as a Christian nation. And not just in the past, not just in the sense of interpreting the founding era, as one of sort of Christian values, but one that sees what is happening today as part of a larger, you know, eschatology, a sense of the end of the world, where the ultimate destiny of the US is to be part of the kingdom of God in the next eschaton.

[00:17:21] And that sounds very, you know, far-fetched, but a lot of the significant people around Trump, inc- including Paula White, who has been his spiritual advisor for a long time now, subscribe to this. It’s often called, dominionism or, or in the more theological sense, postmillennialism, the sense that the US is supposed to be building the kingdom of God right now, and that kingdom, of course, has a certain set of values that are very Christian.

[00:17:46] So, so Trump’s put in prominent places people around him who espouse this in a way that, you know, even previous conservative presidents, Republican presidents like Reagan or George W. Bush didn’t surround themselves with people like this. They might have taken their votes, they might have thrown them bones here and there, but they didn’t fundamentally see themselves allied with those types of people.

[00:18:08] Trump is a different person. He does… th-these have been the m- his most consistent supporters, and he’s rewarded them, for that, over his political career.

[00:18:18] Zachary: I’m curious if you could give us a sense of How large a group, or how… I mean, we, I think we have a sense of how strong a political force, Christian nationalism and those who espouse the belief that America is a Christian nation are today.

[00:18:32] But I’m curious, i- in terms of the larger picture of American Christianity, what, how large of a sector is this? I mean, especially given, you know, the current administration’s feuding with the Catholic Church and, a number of other sort of Protestant ministers who have spoken out against, their immigration policy.

[00:18:53] where does the, Christian nationalist sector actually fit in the broader picture of American Christianity?

[00:19:00] Dr. Hummel: Yeah, I mean, this is a very contested topic right now among scholars, let alone journalists and others. In part, it, really def- depends how you define Christian nationalism.

[00:19:13] so you know, one, one reason I mention the ’70s as this sort of inflection point as when people start being concerned about this is, you know, as I mentioned before, but up until that point, there wasn’t a lot of debate about this. So it wasn’t like a politically polarized debate in even the 1960s about the US being a Christian nation.

[00:19:33] Martin Luther King Jr. constantly references America as a Christian nation, and so do segregationists. that, that’s, just not a point of, debate. And, and of course, we wouldn’t want to group Martin Luther King Jr. in with cont- you know, today’s right-wing Christian nationalists. but there is a sense where if, you’re defining Christian nationalism as something broader than, a sort of right-wing ideology and you’re just concerned about, you know, Christians who think- their faith should matter in politics or something like that, you’re gonna get a huge number of people who agree with that.

[00:20:13] In fact, when this Christian nationalism term came around in the late 2010s, there were a lot of good, sociologists trying to do polling on this, and they would often find that the two groups that polled highest on, sort of their markers for Christian nationalism were white evangelicals and then Black Protestants.

[00:20:32] because there’s a similarity in how both communities, for very different reasons, invoke, the, you know, Christian values when they think about politics and so forth. So, depending on how you define it, you get a really big number of people who are Christian nationalists, or you would get a, narrower group if you’re trying to, to zero in on a more…

[00:20:52] one way I try to think about it is, there’s a very exclusionary or exclusionist version of Christian nationalism that is about shrinking the pool of true, Americans or, true Christians down to a, you know, a, gendered, or not gendered, but racial, you know, subcategory of, true Americans.

[00:21:13] And there you’re talking about, you know, it’s really hard to know exactly how many people and, whether they matter politically as, as much as their numbers would count. But you’re talking about millions of, Americans would be in that group. but, but they’re only one sort of, sector of people who think about Christianity and politics, together.

[00:21:34] So that’s been one of the frustrations, I think, by, certainly historians who know about the ubiquity of, you know, Christian language in earlier parts of our, of our nation’s history, and by people who are trying to, sort of, be more splitters than lumpers, today, on, the scene, is that it really hinges on how you define, Christian nationalism.

[00:21:57] And I think if we’re… Often this is politically motivated, conversation, right? It’s trying to understand, well, who’s supporting Trump and, who’s against him. I think there you’re in the millions, of people. I think if you were just interested in who in our country, who votes thinks that their Christian faith matters to how they vote, I think you’re talking about a much, much bigger group of people, but you wouldn’t have a very clear, necessarily clear sense of what their exact politics are, ’cause their politics would be all over the board on how they think th- those Christian commitments or the h- or the country’s history, informs how they should vote today.

[00:22:32] Jeremi: Right. Right. I, guess for me, Dan, as an observer of this, right, and trying to be a historian and, not a political observer per se, it strikes me that one of the differences, between different people who invoke this term is s- some would say we’re a Christian nation because Christianity is part of our history, and that’s certainly true.

[00:22:55] And then there are others, it seems to me, who are using Christian nation in a more exclusive way to exclude, for example, Muslims. and I do think that’s a difference, right? I mean, when you say Christian nation, do you mean that we’re therefore not a Muslim nation? Or when you say Christian nation, do you mean we’re a Christian and Muslim and Hindu and Jewish and Buddhist nation?

[00:23:17] and, how, should we think about that? Is that a fair way of looking at the, uses of the term today?

[00:23:25] Dr. Hummel: Yeah, without being too, you know, simpl- you know, simplifying it too much, I think you could, think of that there’s two broad categories of people who invoke Christianity when they’re talking about our nation or politics, and there’s the exclusionary invocation and there’s the inclusionary invocation.

[00:23:41] And, and both would have sort of certain claims on history and how we should interpret that history, but the implications would be, very different. And I think of someone like MLK Jr. as someone who would be in that inclusionary category, who wants to acknowledge the centrality of certain Christian values or even biblical passages on the founding of the country and the- The, the Civil War and the rededication of the second, you know, founding, i- in the 1870s.

[00:24:13] And would want to affirm all that and not be, you know, n- not make a move to, to try to secularize that history, but to say, “Actually, these values about human dignity, about equality, about justice, lead us today to want to have a more inclusive society.” so that, that would be a sort of inclusionary way, and then we have plenty of examples of, exclusionary, same invocations of some of the same history that would…

[00:24:40] The implications would be, you know, a certain type of Christian needs to be in power for the US to be truly, you know, fulfilling its destiny or something like that. So I think both of those would, count, depending on how you’re thinking about it, as, Well, I, would… It’s just so loaded now.

[00:24:57] It would, it’d be hard to count MLK as a Christian nationalist, but you could see how there’s similarity there. And that would be something, you know, for listeners, for anyone who’s sort of listening to the rhetoric in our politics to, not simply sort of have a visceral reaction when someone invokes a, like a religion, i- in general.

[00:25:19] And I think that there’s a certain… And this was one of the anxieties that these people in the ’70s had that, might be more rooted in, something I could, at least, affirm, which is that there became a, by some, an impetus to have a very secular interpretation of, the US’s founding. by that I mean, to really downplay any religious influences and make the founding something like the triumph of the Enlightenment over, religion or something like that.

[00:25:46] Now, that wasn’t a common academic, scholarly interpretation, but there were certainly popular interpretations that pushed that. And that would not be the right way to respond to, a Christian nationalism in our discourse. It would be to be more nuanced and more careful about how we understand religion functioning, and to also just pay attention to the very valuable, influences and ideas that come from, Christianity and other religions that lead toward a more inclusive society today.

[00:26:15] Jeremi: that’s exactly where I wanted to go, Dan. you’ve given us a really, wonderful intellectual and religious history of the concept of Christian nationalism and Christian nation and a very, you know, nuanced and varied history. It has many different origins and many different meanings.

[00:26:32] How should those of us who hear the term used, in exclusionary ways by some, h- how… What is the best way to respond to that? Because I agree fully with you, as any historian would, that you cannot talk about American history without the presence of religion and the presence of Christianity. but on the other hand, from our very beginning, there’s been a self-conscious effort by many, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and we can go on and on, including Dwight Eisenhower, who we referred to before in the 1950s, right?

[00:27:03] To, make sure that, this is a more inclusionary notion of religion, not exclusionary. So, so how should we respond without sounding as if we are, condescending to those who are religious believers?

[00:27:15] Dr. Hummel: Right. Well, if you want– I mean, if you wanna spend the time, th- there is a historical conversation to be had.

[00:27:22] I think the typical exclusionary Christian nationalist interpretation of American history is often just bad history. and, my colleague here, at, the Lumen Center, John Fea, has spent a long time debating some of these major, sort of revisionist historians. The, Probably the most popular one is named David Barton, who’s written a number of books that have sold, you know, a lot of, copies, where he is interpreting people like Thomas Jefferson as, crypto evangelicals, like ev- Christian, like, that, evangelical Christians today could identify with, and that’s just not true.

[00:28:00] that’s not who Thomas Jefferson was. Thomas Jefferson was a deist, quite proudly a, deist, quite proudly someone who, when he put, you know, creator in the Declaration of Independence, was not trying to signal to conservative Christians that he had their back. He was trying to assert a certain deistic understanding of creator, in that.

[00:28:19] And so part of the conversation would be around the history and around, understanding what really motivated, the Founding Fathers. Now, it’s, really complicated. So certain Founding Fathers, someone like John Jay, seems to be… have been motivated by a pietistic Protestantism for a lot of, his sort of, vision of what America could be.

[00:28:41] but others, like Jefferson and Washington, had just much more complicated relationships with religious identity, with Christianity, and a sort of proper way of thinking about the past and its implications would require that, conversation. The other thing I would encourage, you know, anyone today who, you know, is, engaging or, coming across the more exclusivist language, I think there’s a way to affirm, without going into the history, the importance of Christianity to, American values that, can at least throw a bridge, to the other side without going all the way down the road toward an exclusionary implication for that.

[00:29:28] And I think that can be affirming or just acknowledging how, something like… And this isn’t unique to Christianity. Judaism has this too. But something like humans being made in the image of God, which is in the Book of Genesis, one of the first passages in the Bible, talks about how God made humans in His image, and how throughout history this has bestowed some type of unique dignity on humans that S- that societies that have come f- that have been animated by Judaism and Christianity have really sought to uphold.

[00:29:59] that’s something we can see in, in some of the values of the American founding, certainly in the struggle over slavery and, equal rights and eman- emancipation, we can see those values. And that’s something where you can talk about a sort of Christian influence on American society and affirm that’s actually something, that is really important to understanding American history, but is not, implicated, in the same way in how we need to move forward into the future.

[00:30:25] So I think that, that would be, you know, sort of, sort of throwing a sort of commonality around, the importance of religion and of Christianity, to the American founding and to American society since then. it might be a way to, at least create a shared way of talking about this. but I d- you know, not to end on a pessimistic note, but I mentioned earlier that there are major, you know, large ecosystems, echo chambers, around these things.

[00:30:53] So someone like David Barton, who I’m guessing has never been assigned in a UT Austin or UW Madison classroom, as a, as sort of a textbook, has a lot of people who really go to him as the primary source on understanding the founding. And that’s just one of these realities around our polarized society that we have to deal with and have to find, you know, ways that sometimes they’re intellectual, sometimes they’re just relational ways to try to chip away at that and, introduce, what I believe to be more true, to the historical record and more beneficial values, for moving forward.

[00:31:29] Jeremi: That makes a lot of sense. And, actually, I think that does sound helpful because it comes back to what we do as historians, which is expose people, particularly young people, to the documents and to good scholarship. but, the documents themselves, I mean, seeing how Jefferson and Washington and others use these words and recognizing in them that when they say Almighty, for example, as Washington does in his, his letters, right?

[00:31:52] He’s, he, is quite clearly not referring only to a, Christian God, though that would be his God. Zachary, I wanted to ask you, as a, as someone who’s a religious Jew, you’re more religious than I am, what– how do you think about this? Do you– When you hear people invoking Christian nation, you obviously understand the importance of Christianity in American history, but you’re not Christian, right?

[00:32:17] So, so how do you think about this?

[00:32:20] Zachary: Well, I think it’s exactly what, Dan was saying. It’s about the, having a nuanced understanding of the role of religion in American society. And I think, I think maybe a more useful way of thinking about, the historical question of the role of Christianity in American society is what is the role of religion in American life?

[00:32:40] because I think, a lot of our most important founding documents and early historical texts, you know, Alexis de Tocqueville, for example, right? His Democracy in America is all about the importance and centrality of religious organization, religious, communities to American democracy. And I don’t think that those connections between religion and, democracy, religion and democratic society are exclusive to any particular religion, but they’re distinct about American life in the sense that the combination of religious institutions, the role of religious institutions in American society and American democracy is In large, in a large sense unique and not something that is present in most other advanced democracies around the world.

[00:33:26] And I think, acknowledging that, celebrating that, recognizing its limitations at the same time is something that everyone, should be able to do. And I think it’s important in particular for those who aren’t religious to be able to do that. and Christianity is, plays a central role in that story, but so do other religions.

[00:33:42] Right. And it’s certainly not a uniform picture of Christianity, even if we were just to take Christianity as a whole. I mean, diversity of American Christian life, is, enormous as well. Yeah.

[00:33:53] Jeremi: Yeah. It’s a very Tocquevillian perspective that the religious associations of one kind or another, mosques, synagogues, churches, are so central to American democracy.

[00:34:01] Right. do you buy that, Dan? Is that, to, sort of close us out, is that, an effective way of thinking about this?

[00:34:08] Dr. Hummel: Well, well, I would never, Say something against Tocqueville. I mean, he’s my he’s one of my heroes. So yes, I mean, of course, I think that’s a really, interesting way to think about it.

[00:34:19] I also think it, it raises just this really fascinating, It seems like a paradox on the face of it, but it’s, a really interesting historical dynamic where, we do have disestablishment of religion in the US and that’s been, you know, with at least the federal government since the beginning, and for most states for most of our history.

[00:34:39] And yet the US is a uniquely, religiously observant society, and that, for many people, back when the disestablishment, was being, established, found that to be, really concerning. you have… You can go back and read that, you know, if America’s not claiming to be a Christian nation from the beginning, that we will, somehow become less religious, and the exact opposite happened.

[00:35:04] And that’s just a fascinating example where you can look today at all types of, sort of surveys and graphs of religious observance and related issues, and you can see that the US just sort of does not follow its peer group in Western Europe, i-i- in, a lot of the religious observance categories.

[00:35:24] Now, things are changing, and the US, is secularizing and diversifying in all types of ways. But up until now, there’s been this sort of really interesting question about what is different and, many historians have pointed to the disestablishment of religion as actually, ironically, the thing that has made religion much more relevant to our society.

[00:35:41] And I think Tocqueville was catching on that, you know, much earlier than a lot of other people were. So I think that’s a really interesting way to think about it, whether you’re religious or not, to really appreciate, how these, values like, Zachary mentioned volunteerism.

[00:35:57] You know, th- this is a very, American practice, at least, that’s what Tocqueville was talking about, where Americans just, like, form societies and, advocy gr- advocacy groups and affinity groups like crazy, in the 19th century. And there’s something quite, Protestant about doing that, and that’s an interesting thing to, to interrogate is, how, do those things connect?

[00:36:22] And then, of course, how do, how does volunteerism actually unlock a lot of different types of activism and visions of the world that change American society fundamentally going forward after that? So I affirm that and, think that’s a very useful way to, to try to get at this question.

[00:36:37] Jeremi: I, I think it’s so interesting because I, agree too.

[00:36:40] I’m less of an expert than you are, Dan, but it certainly seems to me that the disestablishment of religion, and, making America not an official Christian nation actually led to the spread of Christianity within the United States and the spread of other religions. And that would fit with a, a more marketplace understanding of the spread of ideas, a sort of John Stuart Mill version than a more centralized canonical way of thinking about things.

[00:37:06] And, I think it’s really a really powerful way to, to think about this.

[00:37:11] Dr. Hummel: Yeah, I– And just to maybe throw another, book recommendation, I just finished reading, Matthew Sutton’s newest book called “Chosen Land,” which is a history of religion and politics in America, going all the way back to the colonial times, pre-colonial times up to the present.

[00:37:25] And he really hits this point hard in the early chapters about, already the just dizzying diversity of religion, particularly when you include indigenous religion in the early, you know, eras of, American history. And then the disestablishment, in the late 19th cen- in late 18th century just sort of- You know, supercharges a lot of different Christians to basically, not, dive- not, leave that up to the state, to Christianize American society.

[00:38:00] But it was interpreted as, it’s on the Christians themselves to do that, and that galvanized all types of things, everything from, you could say a sort of Christian nationalism type imposition of Christian values to the abolitionist movement to, first wave feminism and, many other, movements who, who had at their head, often had, very pious, devout Christians who understood their actions less as political or, less as exclusively political, but as somehow an expression of their Christian faith.

[00:38:32] So it, it’s an interesting, sort of dynamic to American history. Matt Sutton does a great job of, sort of showing the very diverse ways that Catholics versus Presbyterians versus Restorationists, you know, sort of think about that over the last, hundreds of years. but that’s a, that’s another just recent book that is exploring the same territory.

[00:38:52] Jeremi: That’s a great suggestion. This is Matthew Avery Sutton, who I think we’ve had on the podcast as well, and, clearly we should, we should have him on to talk about his new book as well. Dan, you’ve given us really, the historical context and, a meaty analysis of this and also some, I think, very useful ways of using that history to open, as you said, bridges for conversation around these issues, which is of course our goal on the podcast.

[00:39:17] I wanna encourage all of our listeners to, read Daniel Hummel’s work, which appears, everywhere, it’s ubiquitous, but particularly his most recent book, The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism. Dan, thank you so much for taking the time today. It’s been a pleasure. And Zachary, thank you for your comments and insights, and thank you most of all to our loyal listeners and loyal subscribers to our Substack for joining us for this week of This Is Democracy.