This is Democracy – Episode 287: Year-in-Review

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy. A podcast about the people of the United States. A podcast about citizenship. About engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues. And how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:24] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

This is our Year in Review episode, our last episode of 2024. And it has been a busy year. It feels like we’ve been having a year of history every week. And it’s been a year of tumult, a year of a lot of change, a year of anxiety, and we’re ending the year, of course, with anxiety of all kinds, regarding wars abroad, the future of democracy, and various issues.

We’re going to talk about this. We’re not going to take sides today. That’s not the purpose of our podcast. The purpose of our podcast each week is to understand the issues better. To understand the history that matters for these issues, and to think about positive, optimistic, hopeful pathways forward that are realistic, but also give us some reason to move forward and help us to use and see, through our knowledge of history, ways that we can indeed move forward as a society, and ways that democracy can progress and grow.

in the coming months and years. so Zachary, this is going to be an interesting episode. Yes.

[00:01:36] Zachary: Yes, it will be.

[00:01:37] Jeremi: We’re going to start with your poem. Of course, as always, you’ve done a phenomenal job this year, as you have in past years, and really providing not just a scene setting poem. That’s what I say with every episode, but it’s not really a scene setting poem.

What you’re doing is articulating certain themes and providing us a certain feeling, making the podcast tactile, making it something that actually resonates with us even more deeply than the conversation. with that said, let’s, let’s hear today’s poem. What’s the title?

[00:02:04] Zachary: December.

[00:02:05] Jeremi: That’s where we are now. Okay. Let’s hear it.

[00:02:08] Zachary: Sometimes one has to wonder if the sky falls every year or only in that occasional autumn. We remember Not with the names of consuls, but by the tallied mistakes. Sometimes one has to ask if the world is as bad as this, for the anchor of Olympus, or by the slow revenge of nature, who burns and bloaths and shakes us back from our complacency.

Sometimes it is too easy to wave away the bullet holes. to fill them in with plaster and forget them under photographs. It is too easy to erase the worst and slide forward on the slick lubricant of a bad memory. But this year, I will remember for its sadnesses and its joys, for its heartaches and its battle lines, for its warm embrace and its cold voice saying behind us, good riddance.

[00:03:02] Jeremi: Wow. You’re happy to see 2024 come to a close, huh?

[00:03:06] Zachary: I am. Yes. I think, the theme of the poem is, yeah, it’s partly how bad of a year 2024 was in so many ways. I think it’s almost like a lot of punches, in a row. but also, the many joys and, and happinesses of ordinary life that we all, I hope, experienced, and how important it is, to remember this year and everything that we experienced and learned, but also, be excited and happy to see it go and to look forward to a new year when we can hopefully start again.

[00:03:36] Jeremi: So one of the things that I think builds on that is some reflection on the various different events of the last year, the various punches, as you call them, though, not all the punches might’ve been thrown at us. We might’ve been the ones throwing the punches sometimes, right? So what stands out for you as one of the most important events of the year?

[00:03:54] Zachary: I would say looking back at this last year, probably the thing that we’ll all remember the most is the election, in November 2024. I personally will remember the campus protests, on the, Israel Hamas war very strongly, because I experienced them firsthand. And for me, at least at the moment, one of the things that I will remember most from this year is also the sort of very hopeful moment in Syria that we talked about on our last podcast and the possibility of, of real political change.

It was a reminder for me. And I think it’s a reminder for all of us at a moment like this, when so many of these,forces that seem entrenched. And when it seems like change is impossible, or it seems like we as individuals can have very little impact, it’s a reminder that always seems to be the case until it suddenly isn’t anymore.

And that, in the last moments before a big event like this, no one thinks it’s going to happen. And then it just does. And then in some ways we have to be, we can only really ask ourselves to be prepared to take, full advantage of those moments. And we can’t really expect necessarily to give ourselves those opportunities.

[00:05:03] Jeremi: Why do the campus protests stand out for you? there were so many things that happened in the last year. The campus protests were traumatic for many people in different ways. but probably most people would not have jumped to that as one of the most important events.

[00:05:17] Zachary: I’m not sure I would necessarily either, but I think it certainly stands out to me because I think it’s illustrative of a lot of the sort of worst aspects or worst pathologies of our society that we saw on display this year, not just in the campus protest by any means, but across many different events, it’s unwillingness and inability to talk with each to have serious empathetic, conversations.

that we try to have on our podcast every week. And I think that’s why it stands out to me, because it was startling, and illustrative of a lot of these issues. but I also think in some ways the rest of the year was, an effort by so many people on college campuses, and away from college campuses to try and prove that sort of negative example wrong to try and make the kind of civil discourse and, real empathetic connections that those protests issued or made impossible.

And, I certainly have tried to do that in the last, in the months following, And I think a lot of people have, including many of the people who were protesting, and I think in some ways it’s both a very strong warning, but I think it’s also a hopeful story in the end, maybe, depending on where we end up next year.

[00:06:28] Jeremi: One of the paradoxes of history is that, events that we experience look very different in retrospect, and they look different from different audiences. Later moments. So the campus protests might seem less significant right now, because, six months out, we haven’t seen much effect from them.

They didn’t really affect policy very much. but if in the end, we see a remake of these protests, and we do see some implications and some consequences for policy, then they might look more significant a year from now, two years from now. so we don’t know as we’re living through this. complex, difficult, tumultuous moment.

We don’t know what will be historically significant and what won’t. It does seem to me that the protest movements had one, one area of very important significance, which was that, they showed that, young people for better or worse, are connected to what happens in the Middle East. that part of the world matters for people.

and I think that’s why what happened in Syria. matters, for people. Why do you think that’s the case, Zachary? Why did what was happening so far away seem to matter for so many students?

[00:07:39] Zachary: It’s a hard question. I think a lot of it is, again, I think it, I think the student protests, at least, and also even the way we react to something like, the hopeful stories that we’re seeing in Syria, reflect more on ourselves as where we are as a society than on those events.

I think there was a lot of Anger at institutions that came out in the protests. I think there was a sort of, desire to have everything fit neatly into, a sort of simple view of the world, that could allow us to feel, either, that allow us to feel righteous or better than other people.

And I think there’s also, in the same way when it comes to how we react to the story in Syria, a desire, a really strong desire in our society now for something different, from something almost the opposite of that, which is a hopeful story, a desire to see the possibilities. and I think in some ways, the sort of polemical, positions that rung so loudly at the beginning of the year, Seem to fall on deaf ears at the end of the year.

I think also for a lot of people in college campuses, especially those who, were not happy to see Donald Trump elected, the election was a sort of. wake up call of sorts, as cliche as that sounds, a sort of reminder that, as strongly held and strongly felt as one’s position might be, that isn’t really enough to win or to make a difference, and that there has to be some degree of empathy or willingness to discuss with people that you disagree with vehemently.

And personally, that’s one of the lessons I will take away from the election. And I do think to an extent, while there is certainly a lot of pessimism, a lot of cynicism among young people, I do see more and more young people who really want to have those kinds of conversations with people who disagree with them.

and I think if anything, the last year has been A sort of reminder of how impotent we are as political actors if we’re not willing to discuss and interact with and be friends with people who disagree with us.

[00:09:49] Jeremi: How our silos actually debilitate us and disempower us, in, in, in different ways.

The anger, though, is palpable. that’s one thing that I think is a common thread through so many of the events we would point to, whether we’re talking about, the anger in our election, the anger surrounding the responses to federal efforts to bring aid to people in North Carolina. And Florida and other states that were hit with these massive storms.

the anger surrounding, shootings in different parts of our society. we end the year, of course, with a terrible shoot, school shooting in Wisconsin. I think it was the 82nd, shooting of that kind this year. so there’s a threat of anger. Certainly it’s hard. It will be hard to write about this year as a historian without talking about public anger.

And it’s not specific to the U S either. What do you think that anger is? How do we understand it? At least today? we’ll probably see it differently six months from now, but how do we understand it today?

[00:10:51] Zachary: It’s a very hard question. I think, there’s a lot of anger at the system, and desire for easy scapegoats or targets.

I think that’s what we saw in the shooting of the healthcare CEO and the reaction to it, in the last few months. I think there’s still under the surface and increasingly less under the surface, a desire for easy answers. And I think there’s a real cynicism, especially among young people who didn’t want to see Donald Trump elected, at least in large part, about our system.

and I think the solution is to highlight the places that, I think the solution is to emphasize, the way in which politics in our society and policy, are often really in the places that we don’t see them in the media. They’re not necessarily in the halls of Congress or in the presidential, mansion.

They’re in, local governments and city halls and in like local associations and communities. And I think that We all need to, if anything, be more hopeful and more optimistic about the kind of work that we can do in those spaces, even when,the places that we usually think about as, the halls of power, seem shut to the ideas that we would necessarily want to see represented.

And I think the worst thing we can do is react in a way that, reinforces cynicism or mistrust of the system, react in a way that, that, that expresses, mistrust of our institutions, or to condemn our society. I think the best way to react is to remain committed to our principles, and to our institutions.

And I don’t think thatit is appropriate to react in a way that rejects a system because we have more.

[00:12:33] Jeremi: Yeah. I wonder though, if the anger to me, it seems is not about values per se, it’s about control, right? That people feel they’ve lost control of their lives and maybe they overstated their sense of control in some prior period.

But it does seem that part of the anger is people who feel You know that what’s happening in their schools, what’s happening in their communities, what’s happening at the border of their country, what’s happening with their tax money. and you can hear these voices on both sides of the political spectrum that people don’t feel they have control, that they don’t feel that’s being used.

Those on the left feel they’ve lost control over the court system, that the Supreme Court is somehow, dead set against, their positions and doesn’t take them seriously. And then on the right, people believe that certain institutions, particularly in higher education, mainstream parties, mainstream media don’t take them seriously.

and so some of it seems to be about a loss of control. And I think one of the sources of that feeling of a loss of control is in fact,the, interconnections in our world, the complexity of communication, the complexity of economic activity, and the ways in which there has been a kind of hyper globalization of so many of the nodes of power and people in local settings where their identity is still rooted, feeling that those local settings have lost agency.

does that resonate with you? Or do you have a different view of that?

[00:14:01] Zachary: I think it’s maybe a good diagnosis. But I think it’s also It’s an inaccurate portrayal of the way that most of us live our lives. I think in some ways what bothers me most about some of the way people react to these events and what troubled me most about the protests at the beginning of the year is I think it’s emblematic of a reaction to these events, which is to say, these things are out of my control, or these things are the fault of another institution or of another group of decision makers.

So what I’m going to do is I’m going to express my anger and my rage at those institutions. And in so doing, we forget the way the power that we have as individuals, not over necessarily events thousands of miles away, but over the communities in front of us. We, in expressing our rage about events that we feel are out of our control, we forget about, or we even cause harm.

to the communities and the people that we do have control over and power over and a stake in the present and in our immediate local areas. I think if one is too busy, angry over who is elected president, one forgets that there is also an election for school board or that there’s also an election for city council.

And that at the end of the day, like those elections matter and that your vote as a citizen probably matters more in those elections And your voice in local politics matters more and I think it’s too easy to say, I’m upset at how complex, how out of control these things are, because it obscures and allows one to forget and to be lazy about all the ways that one does have power.

[00:15:35] Jeremi: Yeah. This is a, an observation Charles Dickens made in the 19th century, right? That people often get so focused upon a tragedy or an event far away. That they lose sight of the ways in which they can do good closer, closer to themselves. We all know the person who is, neglecting their loved ones because they’re so worried about things that are far away.

And there is a way in which the, the anger somehow, some ways manufactured. Exaggerated, thrown in our faces about things far from us, the border, for example, or,the ways in which people were upset about how we withdrew from Afghanistan, or what’s happening in the Middle East, right? These events, which are serious and real, but we can spend so much time worrying about those things.

and lamenting and condemning and ranting that we lose sight of the ways in which our values could be better promoted close to home and the things we can do, the places where we do,have agency. Do you think that, the cynicism, that’s another word I would use for this last year, the cynicism that we see, do you think this cynicism is something that, Was specific to this year.

Is this a deeper phenomenon in our society today? And when I let me give some examples of what I mean by cynicism, people saying that since I don’t trust in institutions, I need to just take care of my own. I see this as part of the effort to privatize public education. the effort to, purchase, Even more weapons to protect oneself, the efforts to support candidates who want to blow up the system and have no plan to do anything next, the effort right now in December that some are undertaking to try to shut down the government right around the Christmas holidays.

Talk about Grinch like activities. is this cynicism? something deeper? You think? Do you see it among young people as well? There’s some evidence there is some of that among young people. Or is it something that was maybe, just something about this year that we can expect to see different attitudes coming out of going forward?

[00:17:38] Zachary: I do think there’s a lot of cynicism among all facets of our society, not just young people, but especially young people. And I think, I do think it’s unique to this year in the sense that,I think people are so fast now, whenever something small happens to feel like it’s the end of the world.

And I don’t mean to minimize the importance of the events that have really hurt people in this year. But what I mean is that people are Too quick to say if something doesn’t go their way, or if they see people being hurt by the system, to say that there is nothing that can be done to fix it, or that these institutions are rotten.

And I think the cynicism of this year was manifested in the election outcome. I think what the election outcome showed was that people really weren’t looking for hope, or they weren’t, or at least, a majority of the country wasn’t, didn’t feel represented by a hopeful campaign.

[00:18:47] Jeremi: A majority of those who voted.

Yeah. which is not a majority of the country, but maybe those who didn’t vote also were not motivated.

[00:18:54] Zachary: Yeah. I think not voting in and of itself is a cynical decision. and yeah, so I think there is a cynicism this year that, that is palpable. and if anything, I think that’s what we should be saying good riddance to in the new year.

I know it’s hard and I’m sure the next few years will be as difficult as this year. and. I’m sure we’ll have lots of problems and lots of people will be hurt, but I think, the worst reaction is to react with cynicism and to withdraw and to say, Clearly the system can do nothing for me, or clearly it’s out to get.

[00:19:27] Jeremi: It’s so interesting to me, though, that you take the, the disengagement and the despair as a reason to try to get the year over with and move on. let’s get this nightmare done and let’s wake up to a bright morning is what I hear you saying. but part of me feels the opposite. Part of me feels, there’s so many, Trains in motion that are about to crash and create so much damage, particularly after January 20th, when some of these quite frankly ridiculous people being nominated by Donald Trump for cabinet posts, when some of them, maybe not all of them, when some of them get confirmed, part of me wants to hold on to 2024 because 2025 could be 2020.

Far worse. Do you

[00:20:08] Zachary: feel that I think that there are so many things that could go wrong in the new year. but I think the wrong reaction.is to try and remain in the past or to lament the outcome of an election that one didn’t win. But the correct reaction is to remain engaged and to also have hope and faith in the institutions that are supposed to Protect our democracy because do

[00:20:34] Jeremi: you have hope and faith in those institutions?

[00:20:36] Zachary: I do. And I think that it’s all we have left. And I think in some ways those institutions depend on our hope and faith in them. And I think, if we can’t be naive, certainly, and we have to fight to protect the things that we care about as any, as all of us I think do. But we also can’t pretend like,our institutions, are only strong or only matter, or only right when we win.

[00:21:00] Jeremi: but some would say, and I might say this myself, is that one of the differences now in this moment of anger and cynicism is that the winners, and the winners in different ways are on both sides in different places, the winners are trying to destroy the institutions and make sure they become permanent winners in a way that we haven’t seen before, perhaps.

[00:21:25] Zachary: Maybe. Certainly there are so many people and people in power. For people who will be in power, who are attacking our institutions.and certainly there are many reasons to be concerned about the future of our institutions and the future of our society. But again, I think the way that we protect our society and our institutions is not to condemn them.

It’s not to, it’s not to, overemphasize their weaknesses. It’s to remind ourselves of the values that we share and to call out those who go against those values. But I don’t think institutions can survive if we condemn them and simultaneously condemn those who, who violate them.

[00:22:03] Jeremi: the institutions are not self governing clocks, right?

they need,they need us to They need human beings to run them, right? The institutions are only as good in some ways as the human beings who run them. The design of our democratic institutions for Madison and others was to create checks and balances. It presumed people would try to do the wrong thing sometimes, but it also presumed that they would buy into the institution itself and be willing to lose today so they could win tomorrow.

and that’s why there can’t be any finality. There can’t be in a democracy any permanent winners and any permanent losers. that, that’s why institutions like slavery were so fundamentally anti democratic, not only because they were cruel, but because they denied. people an opportunity to win in another moment.

it seems to me that what history offers us in this moment, it does offer us the hope that our institutions can survive because one thing we can say as historians, it’s implied in your wonderful poem. One thing we can say is that, institutions often outlast people and they outlast a moment and they surprise us.

They surprise us. and that’s been a repeated phenomenon in our society. But another way of thinking of the history is that, movements, developments, they go very far in one direction for a short time, and then there seems to be a natural pushback. A pushback because the overreach of different agendas, the overreach of different efforts mobilizes adversaries.

The overreach takes people beyond what they themselves can defend.and the overreach, triggers not just a crisis response, it has a sobering effect on people. and so there’s a natural yin and yang, perhaps, a seesaw. And we might have to have the weight of the seesaw take us pretty far down in one direction before it bounces back.

If I were making an argument for the next year, for Optimism and Hope, Which I am making now, that would be the argument to say that, maybe the best thing in this year as it ends is to say that the, chickens have come home to roost in many areas, right? that, the effects of certain attitudes and behaviors are beginning to be felt and seen.

And so simply. Mouthing words that sound strong now has a burden upon it that those like Donald Trump who claim that a government is a swamp and government should be largely destroyed, are beginning and will begin to see the effects of not having government in place to do things they want them to do.

this is one of the really interesting things about Syria, for example, right? Donald Trump tweeted that this is not the business of the United States. And there might be a lot of Americans who agree with that, but then if you tell those Americans who think we shouldn’t be involved in the Middle East, what might happen if a group like ISIS or Al Qaeda establishes a terrorist base in Syria, replaying the story of Afghanistan when the Taliban took over, all of a sudden they seem to care.

and so the implications of hateful, sinful, cynical rhetoric, are being felt and maybe that will lead people to change their positions, to adopt, not necessarily the opposite, but a more rational approach. And maybe we can be hopeful about that. does that resonate with you? Zachary.

[00:25:31] Zachary: Yeah, it does.

I think the next year will show people why government matters. and I think the next year, if anything, and if all goes well, we’ll show people why our institutions matter. Um,I do think it’s going to be a hard year 2025 for so many people and for so many reasons, and I think it would have been a hard year regardless of who won the election.

Although I personally think it’ll be much harder given who won the election. and I think the only thing that we can really ask of ourselves and our communities is to stay engaged and to stay present in the discussions and the fights that matter. And I think we can do that in the next year. And I think if anything, as you said, Someone in power that we disagree with or dislike will only motivate us to do that more, right?

[00:26:21] Jeremi: So I think we need to close on that note But also pointing to some of the really good things that happened this year that have been lost in all the legitimate concerns that have been raised and all the anger and anguish of this last year. There are a lot of good things that happened and we shouldn’t lose sight of those.

and I think we should say some things about those. So I’m going to lead off with one that the outcomes have not always been what we’ve wanted, but, we had elections in more parts of the world this year than ever before in human history. More people went to vote for their government representation in more parts of the world than ever before in history.

And for the most part, overwhelmingly, these were peaceful.it doesn’t mean the outcomes were always good. In some places, like in India, an underdog opposition. One, or did well, did better than people expected. We had did a whole episode on that in some places like Venezuela, an opposition to a dictatorship one, but the dictator refused to leave.

We did an episode on that in some places, France and Germany, which we also talked about on our podcast, elections led to deadlock, and, problems. And then in the United States, our election led to a change of government. So many different outcomes, but we’re talking here now, billions of people voting.

billions of people of all kinds, races and religions and, different genders voting. And these elections were largely peaceful. This was a year of people making choices and their choices having effects, not always the effects that they wanted. so in that sense, one could say that this was a good year for democracy.

Do you agree with that, Zachary?

[00:28:05] Zachary: I do. I think, regardless of election outcomes, this was a year in which our democratic institutions, not just in the United States, but globally, were tested, and survived. And regardless of what comes next, I think that’s a hopeful story. I was reminded also looking back at our episodes from this year of a podcast that stood out to me in particular, we remember was the one on, D Day and the legacy of D Day in our historical memory.

and I think, The thing that we talked about most from that story was public service, what that means, and why, those storming the beaches at Normandy that image sticks in our mind so much as Americans. and I think this year and the coming year, people, so many people that we’ve talked to on this podcast, some people that listen to this podcast, hopefully, and so many others really have dedicated themselves to serving the public and whether that’s in government or out of government, whether it’s as a student or a teacher.

and I think that’s always a hopeful story as well.

[00:29:01] Jeremi: Yes. Yes. I think the number of people who dedicated themselves to being teachers, the number of people who dedicated themselves to being poll workers, the number of people who dedicated themselves to providing aid, to refugees, aid to the various war zones, the people you and I know and others know who went back to Ukraine or went back to Israel.

I went back to Gaza to try to help, not to be political, but to try to help those, around them. What other podcasts jumped out for you, Zachary?

[00:29:32] Zachary: Very good question. I really enjoyed the podcast, that we did on, the British elections. I knew you were going to say that story

[00:29:39] Jeremi: as well. I knew you were going to say that.

I think we did. They’re a brand new government, a new labor government, a

[00:29:44] Zachary: lot of really interesting coverage of elections. As you mentioned. and I think we did some fascinating stories on trade as well, with China, with our North American allies, a lot of really interesting episodes on Ukraine, with Michael Kimmage.

yeah. And a lot of interesting topics that sort of weren’t in the news about banking and tariffs. And we did an episode on Barbara Jordan. That was very moving. also really enjoy the episode we did on Hubert Humphrey.

[00:30:12] Jeremi: yes.

[00:30:13] Zachary: of all political figures. With Samuel Friedman. I think we did a good job this year.

I think we covered a lot. We stuck with the events that were in people’s minds, but also brought out some themes from some maybe some more obscure stories or topics that feel relevant.

[00:30:26] Jeremi: I agree. As I was looking through the themes, I think we redefined hope. Because this year, certainly more of our episodes were around problems.

we had heroes, of course, like Barbara Jordan, but more of our episodes were around problems like tariffs and trade and, the challenges of managing political conventions and, of course, war in Ukraine, as you mentioned, and elsewhere. But we saw in these problems, how, people are still making a difference and how the future is not yet written.

when you said at the beginning, Zachary really sticks with me, today, that, We don’t know what’s going to happen. We don’t know what’s going to happen. We know what we’ve just experienced, but even that we don’t know what it means yet.this year ends, I think for all of us with anxiety, it ends for all of us with disappointment of one kind or another, it ends for all of us.

All of us with a sense of foreboding of what, what is coming, people right now are concerned about drones in New Jersey, right? Who are these? What is happening here? and we don’t know the answer and it could get worse, but we don’t know that it could get better. And I think hope is about. Thinking of the different possibilities, not pretending that disasters are not looming, but also seeing that it’s not only disasters and working toward the alternatives.

And I think that is a, a set of themes, throughout,our podcast. so our final question to end the year on, what do you really want to see in the next year, Zachary? What will be most hopeful for you if it comes to fruition or begins to come to fruition in the new year?

[00:32:01] Zachary: It’s a great question.

I’m really hopeful to see, the many ways in which, young people use technology, for good and to spread, information. one thing that I’ve really been struck by, In the coverage of the election afterwards was the sort of lack of voices on social media. and in the media in general, speaking to young people about politics in a sort of healthy way, in an informed way, in a serious way,in a way that’s devoid of the kind of anger that we’re talking about spreads faster.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the wake of the election, but not just because of the election, because of all the things we’ve talked about, I see a renewed desire among young people to have serious political conversations. and maybe that doesn’t mean talking about presidential politics or party politics at all, but I do think it means being engaged, in,in, In our society, in our communities on the values that matter to us.

And I think people are going to do some amazing things with the new technology that we have. Yeah,

[00:32:57] Jeremi: I love that technological hope. And I think that’s very realistic. I’ll give you mine. so much of our debates, wherever you stand about immigration. have been debates about the border. Is the border secure?

What can we do to secure the border more? who’s coming across? Which criminals are getting in? Which gang members are getting in? And I don’t want to rehearse all of that discussion now, but I’m hopeful that in the next year that discussion will shift to why we need the people we have in our society.

Why all of us, regardless of our politics, recognize that a thriving democracy needs talented, hard working, meaning people from somewhere else who contribute. They don’t only diversify in the sense of making our society more woke. That’s really not what this is about. Diversity brings creativity.

Diversity brings freedom.and, The many colors of American society are consistently what make American society stronger and more vibrant and more prosperous. And in a time when we have been talking about the border, but not talking about that, we’ve lost sight of who we are. We’ve lost sight of what our democracy needs.

I’m hopeful that in this year, as we start to talk, Unfortunately, about trying to deport people and trying to limit access to our country and other countries are going through this as well. It’s not just an American story. We will realize how important the people we have are and how important providing them a welcome, comfortable home is, and we will realize how much we need more of them.

We need more people in Austin and New York. and London and Paris who bring new ideas from other countries. Our universities need more international students. And I think once we move beyond the debates about securing the border to thinking about who the people are that we want to continue to house in our society, And those we ostensibly don’t want in our societies will come to recognize how important many of the people we have targeted and ignored and disrespected how important they really are to us.

I think I feel that shift happening as the discussion shifts as well as we move to discussing who should be in our societies, not just what the border should look like. Do you agree, Zachary?

[00:35:19] Zachary: I think it’s very true. I think, as you said, if the more extreme policies of the Trump administration come to fruition.

What we will see is all the things that we rely on, not just from government, but from immigrants, from the people that are most vulnerable, in our society, to these kinds of policy changes. and hopefully that will, remind us of how important it is To remain open to the world, and to new ideas, and to all the things that we try to bring

[00:35:48] Jeremi: to this podcast.

Yes. So to connect us back to your wonderful poem again, Zachary, good riddance to the political positioning and posturing and nasty disembodied rhetoric that tells us of a reality that doesn’t really exist. And hello, welcome to a new year of Struggling with policies and cruelties that we don’t want to see, but using those struggles and those cruelties to refocus us on what really matters, the humanity of our fellow citizens.

Democracies, like institutions, are built on people. And I’m hopeful that we will become a better people in the next year because we will see some of the consequences of our not being the best people in the last year. Zachary, thank you for your poetry and your partnership in this podcast, all year.

Thank you to our, many guests of all kinds who have joined us. And thank you most of all to those who make this podcast possible, our listeners, our loyal listeners, our hopeful listeners, our listeners who believe in democracy, our listeners who subscribe to our podcast, subscribe to our sub stack and join us each week for our episodes.

We look forward to making more episodes for you next year, continuing our conversation and continuing to grow our knowledge and energy for a better democracy. you for joining us for this episode. And this year of this is Democracy.

[00:37:27] Intro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

See you next time.