This is Democracy – Episode 286: Syria

[00:00:00] Intro: This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you, a podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:24] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

Today, we are going to discuss the whirlwind of events in Syria in the last few weeks. Really, in the last 13 years. Uh, what we have seen in the last few weeks with the collapse of the Assad regime is the end of a regime that had been in power for 50 years that had also been in civil war. Uh, with massive casualties and brutality for more than a decade, going back to at least, uh, 2010.

And uh, we’re going to discuss today what has happened, uh, but even more than the policy issues, uh, what this means for human beings on the ground, because there are more than 20 million people. Who are directly affected, uh, probably far more than 20 million people by the events of the last few days and the last few decades.

Uh, we are very fortunate to be joined by a good friend and someone who I have such high regard for, a former student of mine, uh, but now an international activists and lead and leader, uh, may Barazi. May, welcome.

[00:01:31] Mai Barazi: Thank you. Good to see you again.

[00:01:32] Jeremi Suri: So nice to see you. Uh, May is doing really amazing work for more than a decade.

She has been working on international refugee and resettlement issues, working with, uh, families and individuals around the world from Syria, but also in Ethiopia and elsewhere who have been forced to flee their homes, uh, because of violence, uh, in, in the ways that many of our families did generations ago, certainly, uh, my family.

Um, and she has worked with helping them to resettle, helping them to, uh, these families, these refugees to start their lives over again. And, of course, she’s from Syria, May is, so, so this is a country that’s very close to her heart. She spent the first half of her life there, um, and she’s an expert on refugee issues.

So what we’re seeing today is, uh, directly in her space. personally and professionally, and they will help us understand what’s happening and what the implications are for, for these events and for the many, many people affected by these events in Syria. Before we turn to that discussion, of course, we have our scene setting poem from Mr.

Zachary Suri. Zachary, what’s your poem’s title today? At Once. Okay, let’s hear it.

[00:02:50] Zachary Suri: From a thousand miles away, they watch the freedom of their land return and see the faces from the dungeons long since disappeared. And hear the laughter of their countrymen for once at peace, finding in their own children’s eyes the love that they had lost.

So swiftly does the tyrant fall? Not slowly, but at once. So swiftly do the gunshots end not slowly, but at once. And just like that can hope. Return not slowly, but at once.

[00:03:25] Jeremi Suri: Tell us, Zachary, what motivated you to write this poem?

[00:03:28] Zachary Suri: Well, the thing that struck me about watching these events unfold from the U. S. is how sudden they were and despite the prolonged horrors of the civil war in Syria how the end the hopeful end came so quickly and so so suddenly when at least I was least expecting it and There’s something very powerful in that.

It’s almost cathartic and You Uh, I think in some ways it almost adds to the sense of emotion surrounding the event.

[00:04:06] Jeremi Suri: Yes, yes. May, your thoughts on the poem? Yeah,

[00:04:11] Mai Barazi: um, hope, hope. Um, the images coming, um, after the fall of the regime are scary. We always knew there were, uh, uh, horror and torture and pain. Uh, but when you see it, you see the images of not just the people coming out of the, um, cells, but um, their families waiting.

Um, uh, mothers, fathers, uh, children waiting for their parents to come out. Some did. Looking different, acting different, uh, because they’ve been there for many, many, many years. So they became like strangers to them. Uh, some never. came out and the hope is gone. So the hope is true for some, but not for everybody.

And, um, uh, I think the word sad is, is not, uh, the word we’re looking for now. I don’t know what to use, but, uh, um, there’s, there’s this, uh, bitterness inside, uh, um, the fear and, um, but we will want to keep the hope. We want to

[00:05:35] Jeremi Suri: of course and and what what makes you most hopeful now

[00:05:40] Mai Barazi: Um, the young people, um, I’ve been, um, very lucky right after I finished my master’s degree in 2018.

I think you guys, uh, really put something inside of me that said, you know, I need to do more. I need to do more. I was involved somehow supporting families and friends and, but, um, after I finished, I contacted, uh, some people on you on, um, Social media. Facebook was very popular at that time. They were working with displaced Syrians in the north, and I said, What can I do?

They were providing English classes, literacy, and they were targeting especially women. So I said, Can I teach communication skills, uh, peaceful communication? I don’t know why, but that’s the first thing that came to mind. And they said, Of course. At that time, our only platform was Skype. You dial Skype and then you, you start talking to people.

So we were online since then. And, uh, I started working with women, um, they would come to this, like, what we call women’s center, bunch of women, and sometimes with their children and babies in their lap.

[00:06:57] Jeremi Suri: Wow, and these were all people displaced because of the civil war?

[00:06:59] Mai Barazi: Yes, they were displaced. They come from all different cities and towns in Syria.

Um, we’ll probably talk about it a little bit more later, but they were displaced. Pushed away because they opposed, uh, Assad regime. Um, so they end up in the north and we wanted to help them cope. A lot of them were intense. living in tents. That’s why we,

[00:07:22] Jeremi Suri: we

[00:07:23] Mai Barazi: had a place for them to come to. So there’s an internet and there’s a computer and a screen.

And we would, uh, teach them, especially in my session, um, on how to communicate. We will identify conflicts and families and they’ll say, okay, how do we deal with it? And then, you know, Bit and bit, we started talking about conflicts in communities, conflict with people who have different opinion. Um, and since 2018, we have about 2000, uh, students graduated, finishing 60 hour program.

Uh, it’s a part of George Mason University, a peace building program. The organization I work with is called testicle, which is meaning independent. And we started with women, but now we for the past, I think, three or four years, we’ve been teaching women and men, because we don’t want to just address half of the society, but all of society.

And the best part is, What I learned from them, not what I teach them. Yeah, I learned so much from them. These are survivors who some of them been displaced once, twice, three times survived bombs and and shootings, and they have hope talking about hope. They always had hope.

[00:08:51] Jeremi Suri: So much of the world, I feel, had lost hope in Syria in 2010 2011 President Obama, Yeah.

Uh, believed that, um, the Arab Spring would somehow lead to the downfall of the Assad regime. And, of course, that didn’t happen. In fact, the opposite happened. The Assad regime, uh, increased its use of military activities, including chemical weapons, against its own people, uh, bringing in assistance from Russia.

Uh, and so the situation became, at least for, for those looking from the outside, and I’m sure for those inside, more and more grim. As we were talking before, half the population about of Syria left as refugees, ran away if they could. Who knows how many, hundreds of thousands were killed. Um, how did we in the last few weeks come out of that?

What has happened? What have you experienced, not just from a policy perspective, but a personal perspective? How have things changed in the last few weeks?

[00:09:50] Mai Barazi: Uh, I think the results that we’re seeing now, um, been planned maybe for years and years. Uh, I mean, the serious never. Lost hope. They always said, there’s no way this is going to continue.

It’s just too much. So, um, I am sure, um, Many Syrians on on, um, different levels been planning for the day after, as we say, um, a lot of the young people were seeing now they call the opposition or, uh, you know, HTS. I think the letters they’re using for the opposition now they been training. Yeah. Uh, these young men have been displaced from their homes, and now we’re seeing images for them coming back to their homes, whether destroyed or not, they go back and, and, and they hug their families and friends.

Um, so I remember, um, seeing a video of, uh, Two children and they were like 10 years old when they they left their home and they said we will be back and now they’re back 10 years later. Yes. Yes. Yes. It’s amazing. It is. So these people always wanted to go back to their homes. And, um, a lot happened. I’m not a political analyst, so I cannot give you exactly how it happened.

But, uh, what we’ve seen on the news is that, for example, uh, uh, Russia got busy in Ukraine. Russia has been supporting Assad since 2014 or 2015. Uh, Iran and Hezbollah have been giving Assad support since day one. Uh, first they said just administrative and then the troops walked in. So, Iran got weakened, Hezbollah.

Big part of it was destroyed. Uh, so all of this gave room for this move that’s been long awaited. Um, and that’s what we’ve been seeing. Where have they

[00:12:03] Jeremi Suri: been training?

[00:12:05] Mai Barazi: I cannot give you exactly the location, but all of these people were in the north, uh, west part of Syria, which is on the border with Turkey.

And, um, I mean, we all know that Turkey is supporter of them. So this is where they were.

[00:12:22] Jeremi Suri: And there also are American soldiers there, as I understand it, 800 American soldiers or so. They

[00:12:26] Mai Barazi: are, um, in the north also. There’s, there’s actually a lot of American, uh, in the north supporting also the Kurds. So we were afraid that now there might be a clash between the two because Turkish supporting the opposition and, um, America supporting the Kurds.

Kurds and they might have different agendas. We’re hoping that since they’re both Syrians, that they will talk together and figure out a way out.

[00:12:53] Zachary Suri: Zachary, could you give us a better sense, maybe, uh, from what you know of who the main opposition are, uh, what, what do they believe, uh, what do they want to do with the country?

Moving forward or is that is it all too soon to tell

[00:13:09] Mai Barazi: uh, it is soon, but there are indications. So You know the the Ahmad the shutter now he introduced himself the Jolani He Was, uh, for, I think, since 2013 or 14 fighting against the Assad. He had different affiliations with Al Qaeda or others on a CNN interview introduced himself, and he said, People go through phases.

And now my project is Syria. Um, so we’re hoping that yes, his project is just to provide the. You know, peace and democracy to to Syria. The young people who he’s leading there from all over Syria, and they were all displaced because of the Assad. So I understand their feelings now. The thing that, um, um, I need to be very careful saying, but it is kind of a fact, but not an announced fact is that usually whoever is funding, uh, have the agenda, right?

Um, we’re hoping that it’s a good agenda for Syria. So far, we’ve seen Um, very peaceful transition. Uh, I mean, not much of a, there’s no bloodshed actually at all. And some incidents happening here or there, especially in the north, uh, most of the people have probably seen them starting in Aleppo, going to Hama and then Damascus and Homs and, and, uh, Dara in, in the South, they were welcoming them.

And, um, I talked to friends who lives in Aleppo and Homs. And as they were marching to these cities, I would call and say, how you’re doing? They were like, we’re fine. We’re fine. Uh, they said they’re going to give us more electricity because for the past five years, a lot of Syrians. have electricity only a couple hours per day.

Wow. Uh, and, uh, beside many other obstacle they’ve been living on daily basis. So now they said, Oh, there’s bread and there’s food because we thought as they come in, there will be a big conflict, crisis, and maybe the Basic services will disappear. No, everything was fine. And they said they were organized and the people welcome them.

And they were very polite. Very nice. So we’re hoping this will continue.

[00:15:45] Jeremi Suri: Yes. Yes. I know you’re from Hama. Which is a major city in Syria. A third or fourth largest, is that correct?

[00:15:52] Mai Barazi: Uh, number four, yeah.

[00:15:53] Jeremi Suri: Number, fourth largest, uh, in a country of 20 some odd million. So this is a big city, right? Probably more than a million people, yeah?

[00:16:00] Mai Barazi: About a million plus, yeah. It’s

[00:16:01] Jeremi Suri: your home, it’s the city you’re from. I

[00:16:05] Mai Barazi: was born actually and raised in Damascus. My parents Parents from Hama. We used to visit Hama a lot. Um, uh, Hama had, um, went out against Assad regime in 1982. Uh, and, uh, my father was there. He would always be there. Move between Hama and Damascus and all sudden we could not hear anything from him at that time.

There were no smartphones or internet There’s the dial phones He was there for about 22 days The city was under siege and it was bombed by Hafez al assad and his brother Rafat al assad very well known criminal. Um, there are the numbers of how many people were killed was between 20 to 40, 000 people.

Um, I remember we would keep trying to call My father to to say to to to hear any news from him. We couldn’t. Uh, so sometimes we would call a cousin. The phone would work and would say, Do you know what’s happening? And the news coming out would say there are neighborhood that were wiped out. We don’t know if the neighborhood which it’s a neighborhood called the Barazi neighborhood.

It’s a big family there. Your neighborhood. Yes. We don’t know if it’s still there or not. Now, um, 22 days later, my father walks in. I was 12 years old and, uh, I was scared to go and hug him. I saw a ghost. I didn’t see my father. My father was very strong. He was a police officer before, uh, his shoulders and, uh, were bent down and his face, his face.

I still remember it exactly when he walked in. It was like gray, sad. Um, he was staring. Mom was telling me, go say hello. And I went and touched him, but I was afraid. It took him a very long time to, to recover and now we understand what is PTSD. Of

[00:18:25] Jeremi Suri: course.

[00:18:26] Mai Barazi: At that time, we just know. And dad went through. A lot during those 22 days, one story that I heard from my siblings, not from him, because I was too young, uh, that, um, they would go to a neighborhood and ask for the men to come out and they will just line them out in front of a wall and shoot them.

So he was lined out, uh, lined up in front of a wall and they would collect their, uh, IDs. So the soldier next to him, an officer, were reading the names just to make sure that they only deserve death. And they said, Wajih Barazi. And, uh, and the officer said, where is Wajih Barazi? And dad raised his hand. And he told him, And he told, he saluted him saying, Yes, sir, apparently that officer was under my father’s, um, you know, uh, ranking when my father was an officer.

And he told him, you go back home. Dad went back home. Few minutes later, he hears the shooting. Oh,

[00:19:35] Jeremi Suri: gosh.

[00:19:36] Mai Barazi: And he said he will never. Never forget that. And now we understand what’s a survival guilt is, of course. So, uh, I remember growing up since day one Opposing Assad. We couldn’t say it out loud because Syrians believe that I said and Can hear you can see what you’re writing and can even go in your brain and and and know your thoughts So we were always afraid but I we were always waiting for that day

[00:20:08] Jeremi Suri: And what is it like in Hama now?

[00:20:11] Mai Barazi: Very, well, wow, people are on the street celebrating. So it’s going very well.

[00:20:18] Jeremi Suri: And people are hopeful and optimistic as you described? They’re

[00:20:21] Mai Barazi: very hopeful. Um, uh, there’s a lot of discussions on what’s, uh, what’s now the results of, of, of what will come out. Uh, after the opposition came in and controlled all Syria or most of Syria, um, most of the people saying there, whoever comes now, there’s no way he can be as bad as an asset and the family.

There’s no way. Uh, so, um, there’s hope

[00:20:55] Jeremi Suri: Zachary,

[00:20:57] Zachary Suri: what is the mood now among Syrians like yourself, uh, who no longer. live in the country? Um, and, uh, are there, are there people who are planning? We’re already starting to move back.

[00:21:11] Mai Barazi: Um, very good question. There are moods, not just one mood. Of course, there’s still a status of unbelief, you know, or did it really happen?

I mean, when it happened, it was, um, Saturday night here. I remember sleeping very, very late, like two in the morning, waking up the first thing I turn on my phone to make sure this was not a dream,

[00:21:36] Jeremi Suri: right?

[00:21:38] Mai Barazi: So a lot of people still trying to digest what happened. Uh, the happiness could not last, unfortunately, very long because of the images off off the prisoners and digging under the The jails to see the secret, what they call the Red Room cell, which they couldn’t reach a lot of people talking about other locations for secret prisons.

So, and there are many, many Syrians who, I mean, hundreds of thousands of Syrians who disappeared. There’s no bodies. So you don’t know if they’re alive or dead or where they’re buried. So this creates a bitterness and anger inside. There’s also the wonder of what’s going to come next. Who’s going to rule?

Syria. Now, um, I think it happened so fast that there was not a proper preparation. We’re seeing now that, for example, the prime minister, the X for the X regime is there, and he said we will continue working and we will work with the new people. They appointed somebody yesterday from the opposition to work with with him.

But we don’t have a government yet. So the main fear, actually, Zachary, would be the international interference. Um, there have been proxy war in Syria, I think, for the past at least 10, 11 years. Uh, everybody’s fighting in Syria. Um, at one point we thought that we are an experimental lab. Um, they tried, uh, weapons in Syria, um, Um, bombing and wiping out neighborhoods.

Um, I think they even tried the different kind of tortures in Syria. And maybe there were some studies that we will learn about later. But um, the scary thing is that, uh, Russia, America, the Gulf countries, Iran, uh, everybody was in Syria, but they were all, uh, Not supporting the Syrian people. And for me, as a humanitarian worker, I look now at tools as, uh, um, Security Council, the U.

N. And I see they’ve maybe done more damage than good. Um, I hope one day we will come up with new tools that really fair to everybody. Where, uh, me as a human being know that it. I deserve to live and others deserve to live. We’re seeing on TV now. Um, you know, people bombed in, for example, Gaza and Beirut.

And we’re watching it as if we’re watching soap operas. And then we turn the TV off. off when we go to the gym or the to go eat in the restaurant. That’s scary. That’s a scary fact for tomorrow. Um, international, you know, interference already started. Israel bombed Syria for the past two days. two days.

They say it’s about 480 strikes. I think the last number I read on the news wiping out the defense system. Um, now I know there’s fear, but, uh, we don’t know who’s ruling it. So, you know, I wish, uh, I wish they bombed the defense system before when Assad was bombing its own people. They Probably got again some applause from the Syrians, so it’s scary.

It’s going to be some hard times ahead of us.

[00:25:29] Jeremi Suri: What would you like the international community to do if you if you had the opportunity to speak directly to the leaders of various countries? I hope they’ll be listening to you on this podcast. What do you what would you want them to do?

[00:25:44] Mai Barazi: Stay away. Stay away.

Yes. Um, uh, yesterday there were some Syrian activists saying, um, to rebuild our countries, we will need international experience. We want to learn from how Germany rebuilt after World War II. We want to learn from the experience in Rwanda, in Burma. There are so many, uh, uh, experiences similar to the Syrians that we can learn from.

Um, but we learn from them and we don’t want them to come and tell us what to do or, um, you know, apply their agendas in Syria, which I know it will not happen. I don’t think they’re going to listen to me or do it. Uh, we would want the Syrians to be very, very wise. Uh, there’s a lot of talk about revenge.

Uh, sure. You know, Syrian Assad used Syrians. To kill each other. So

[00:26:43] Jeremi Suri: particularly his group, the alloys. Yes. Which is a small minority, right? Yes. And that his family was a clan, right? From the Alawites. Yes. I mean, I, I am concerned that Sunni in, in, uh, Syria, who are the majority will attack the alloys and others.

Is, is that a real worry?

[00:27:01] Mai Barazi: It is worry. It is definitely a worry. And there’s a lot of now, uh, activist calling for people to say we’re going to have a transitional justice. And this is something actually we teach in our program, too, and that there will be a system where people, criminals will be taken to justice.

And, uh, but there is fear, you know. Women who were raped and men who were tortured. It’s it’s so difficult for me who’s sitting here in the U. S. Enjoying democracy and freedom to tell them. Oh, hold yourselves.

[00:27:40] Jeremi Suri: But

[00:27:41] Mai Barazi: so far we haven’t seen. A lot of those actions. So we’re hopeful. Um,

[00:27:48] Jeremi Suri: do you expect that, um, the different rebel groups will be the basis for the new government?

Or is there another group of Syrians who will step forward as the leaders?

[00:28:00] Mai Barazi: Everybody should be included. Those young men who marched and, and, uh, uh, to, to Syria and, uh, uh, now are really acting as the protectors of Syrians. They should have a role, uh, but there are many Syrians from different religions, different ethnicities, uh, and everybody have to be included.

Uh, that’s, that’s why in 2011, I was in Syria. The people went out on the streets. They were in the beginning. They didn’t ask for any change in the government. They said, We just want some democracy freedom. Uh, we want corruption to stop. I saw that with my own eyes, so I know they were peaceful. But they were faced with beating and shooting.

Um, I remember, uh, twice I’ve been on the streets. Not enough, but I couldn’t afford more because I was busy taking care of my mom and working. Um, I remember the first time, uh, it was a funeral for a young, three young men who were killed a day before shot on the streets because they were, out there calling freedom, freedom.

[00:29:20] Jeremi Suri: This is in Damascus.

[00:29:21] Mai Barazi: This is in Damascus. Uh, it happened in the neighborhood where the UN building where I worked was. And I remember they said, uh, uh, there’s because we were next to the cemetery. So the three young men will be brought to be buried, but they will be carried, um, uh, by their colleagues. So there will be tens of young People and family coming, uh, that usually turns into a demonstration.

So they said, close the U. N. Building and leave because we don’t know what will happen. We’re already knowing that they might shoot at them. A friend of mine said, You wanna go on this funeral said, Yes, I want to. So I joined them. I will never forget that feeling. And I don’t think I can describe that feeling.

Uh, there was this, um, long narrow street. We, we ran to, to join and I see a river of people, thousands of people. And all of a sudden there’s group of women, maybe 50, 60. And we were all chanting freedom and we were chanting for the marchers. Um, What are the

[00:30:32] Jeremi Suri: words you use? What are the words in

[00:30:34] Mai Barazi: the, you want me to say it in Arabic or English?

Please, in Arabic,

[00:30:37] Jeremi Suri: in Syrian Arabic.

[00:30:39] Mai Barazi: Yes, uh, to, to say it in English. First, they were, for example, they will call, of course, for freedom, which is hirriyeh, hirriyeh. And then they will tell the mother of the, the murder that we are all your children. And

[00:30:58] Jeremi Suri: I

[00:31:05] Mai Barazi: start chanting with them. And I was feeling, um, bit cold and maybe felt like I was flying above the cloud. I was very light. Uh, we got to where they were all meeting and they had they laid the three bodies on the floor. And then they start. There was a sheikh, a Muslim priest praying. And then one young man turned to us and they said, Please leave.

For all the young ladies. And we said, Why? They said the snipers on the building. We just saw the snipers. That’s mean they want to shoot us.

[00:31:42] Jeremi Suri: So please

[00:31:43] Mai Barazi: go because we cannot protect you. We’re all gonna run soon. And We start walking away minutes later, I start hearing the shooting and again, you feel like, Oh my God.

And you’re thinking you want to run. We were running away, kept running toward the main street. But you’re wondering how many people now on the floor, how many more young men are dying. So you know, uh, it’s, it’s, uh, this actually motivated me to go out again. And I told my friend next time, The next time it was a massacre in a holy.

It’s a small town where the regime blamed terrorist. But later on, videos showed that it was people from the regime who went in slaughter. Large numbers in in this small village, and we decided to go on the street not to say anything except to have a moment of silence. And the organizers made sure that the people that they will go to a little square in old towns, Damascus, they are Sunni.

Christian, Druze, and Alawite. So we were about 40, 50 people standing there, and he comes in, and he says, Guys, we’re here for a moment of silence. You can pray in whatever religion you are, and then each one will go to his house. So it’s like two, three minutes, uh, you know, event. And we stood there, and I looked to the left, And I saw those men, security, Syrian security with the big black sticks or, um, um, um, electricity wires coming toward us and I said, Okay, they’re gonna come and ask us to leave.

No, the beating started and I remember running a shop owner Waves to me to come in. I go in. He says, Are you okay? And I said, Yes, he said, No, your leg. Apparently they hit me on my leg. I didn’t feel it. And I was screaming. Why? Why? Why? Um, but I don’t I understand exactly why the young man Kept going. It’s kind of addictive because you you go after your aspirations and dreams.

You don’t want to let go.

[00:34:13] Jeremi Suri: Sure. In some ways, you don’t have a choice. If you if you want to live a humane life, you can’t survive that way. I mean, it’s one of the reasons you left Syria, right?

[00:34:22] Mai Barazi: Yes, it was actually a few months after that, when my husband told me there’s no hope. Let’s leave and we came to the States.

This is before that. This is where we got our education and we lived for like 10 years So went back to Syria trying to do something and then we left again and we’ve been in in the u. s. Since then

[00:34:43] Jeremi Suri: well Zachary This is a lot to take in for us, for Americans, for people who are accustomed to difficult politics, but not this level of violence and brutality.

And there’s so much violence and brutality we’re seeing in our world today, particularly in the Middle East. And it’s not new, obviously, but we’re becoming more aware of it, at least. Um, how, how do you think Uh, young people like yourself are reacting to this. Is this something that’s resonating with, uh, your colleagues and others who are looking out at the world?

Is this something that will leave a permanent influence on the way we think about the world? Or is it just more of the same?

[00:35:29] Zachary Suri: Well, I think certainly the images are deeply moving for a lot of young people who see, who see the images of Jubilant Syrians celebrating the end of the Assad regime. And I think there’s a strange way in which all of us have sort of grown up with this war in the background, uh, hearing about it on the news.

It’s sort of the headlines that we often try to ignore. Um, And so to see it end like this, I think is, is very hopeful, um, or at least we hope it’s ended, um, the violence and all. Um, so I think there is something very hopeful in this moment. I think there’s also a lot of uncertainty. Um, and I think certainly one reaction that people have to this, uh, and I’m not sure quite how widespread it is, but certainly our president elect had this reaction to it, none of our business, or we shouldn’t be involved.

Uh, and there’s, uh, there is a sense that. Um, this is something that is happening so far away and also something that we don’t really know or understand.

[00:36:34] Jeremi Suri: Do you share that view, Zachary?

[00:36:36] Zachary Suri: No, certainly not. I think there’s a, there’s a deep relevance, uh, that as we’ve seen and it’s not just moving emotionally, but it, it shows us, um, For one, for me, I think, as, as I said in my poem, it shows how sudden these things can be.

How in moments when we’ve all sort of, not just lost hope, but at least in the U. S., for those of us who don’t have a personal connection, sort of stopped paying attention. How sometimes, a group of people can seize the agenda again and really change things, uh, and how it’s often those moments when the things seem the most stagnant that the change

[00:37:13] Jeremi Suri: happens.

Sure, sure. You know, uh, horrible regimes last a long time and then they fall fast. And I think your, your poem, your poem captures that, uh, May for our, for our final words here, so many of our listeners, I’m sure, uh, care deeply about what’s happening. They might not be. personally connected. But I think many of our listeners are humanitarians and care about humanitarian issues deeply.

And I know many of our listeners work on refugee issues, maybe refugee issues at the U. S. border and elsewhere. Um, what do you think the ordinary American listening, what can they do? How can they make some small positive difference and offer some help?

[00:37:55] Mai Barazi: Oh, wow. That’s a big question. I don’t know if, uh, if I’m capable of giving answers, Um, We’re really hopeful.

And I think it’s in the hand of, I don’t want to say just young people, but like anybody who wants to do something. I was listening to Zachary’s words and I’m like, yes, there’s hope because there’s words and there’s actions. The words are beautiful, but they disappear. I remember being in, uh, in D. C. and I visited the Jewish Museum.

And, uh, there was a section for Syria, and it says never again, because the pictures of the Syrians who were taken by a person called Caesar, and there was a Caesar action sanctions on Syria because of him, uh, the pictures pictures were similar to the Holocaust. And I remember I said, Oh my God, never again.

Yes, that’s how it should be. And it should be never again, never again for anybody. Um, I’m sure there’s people in here, uh, who, who can make a difference, who can do something, uh, and, uh, knowledge awareness. Um, and there’s perspectives also we, we teach also in our program that judging is very difficult because we have different perspectives how the Americans looking now at Syria, the images that’s coming out.

Um, some Americans might think in a way serious, might think in a different way. We have to accept that we are different people. Uh, what the Syrians want may be different from what the American wants. Uh, but we have to Let’s be, you know, I’m hoping I’m hoping really that people will, uh, will stand by the Syrians, help them recover and rebuild and enjoy what they want to enjoy.

[00:40:00] Jeremi Suri: You know, I think your point about knowledge and awareness and that’s more than just words as you say it’s it’s a. It’s more than also just doing things. It’s paying attention and caring. And I think, uh, one of the most hopeful things is that, uh, Syria is back in the noose. The civil war had been going on, what you described, what you experienced personally, May, what you so, so courageously shared with us here.

That was happening and most of the world was not paying attention. Now the world is paying attention and I think, uh, all of us as citizens who care about democracy, wherever we live, and whatever our backgrounds, we have to continue to pay attention and demand that, um, people are treated as human beings.

I don’t think, as you pointed out, that Americans or Europeans are in a position to tell Syria how to run its country going forward. Um, we have too many of our own problems and, you know, our track record is pretty mixed at best. Um, but By caring about the human beings and by encouraging and demanding that human beings are treated in a basic humane way, the opposite of what you experienced, it does seem that that can have an important role, don’t you think?

[00:41:09] Mai Barazi: Yes, definitely. Um, and, uh, and That’s what we are. A lot of Syrian activists saying now we want to use the experience off the international world. We want to learn from you. We need your expertise and help, not interference. So this is Yes, definitely. Everything you said was 100 percent correct. Um, we will be watching for the next two days and see how things will turn.

And, uh, and let’s hope it might be a messy period. Which is normal after all what we’ve been through, and hopefully then Syrians will have a normal life, just like anybody else.

[00:41:51] Jeremi Suri: Yes, yes. So Zachary, how about we close with your poem one more time?

[00:41:58] Zachary Suri: Okay, at once. From a thousand miles away, they watch the freedom of their land return, and see the faces from the dungeons, long since disappeared, and hear the laughter of their countrymen. For once, at peace, finding in their own children’s eyes the love that they had lost. So swiftly does the tyrant fall, not slowly but at once.

So swiftly do the gunshots end. Not slowly, but at once. And just like that, can hope return. Not slowly, but at once.

[00:42:35] Jeremi Suri: May Barazi, thank you so much for courageously sharing your experiences with us and for giving us more reason for hope. In a very difficult situation. Zachary, thank you for your moving poem.

I, I, I, this week, uh, you outdid yourself. I think you, you captured so much of the, um, humanity of this moment for us, Zachary. And as, as only a poem. really can. So thank you for that, Zachary. And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners for, uh, subscribing to our sub stack and listening to our podcast and for staying aware and focused on the human beings in places like Syria who are, um, struggling.

Uh, with, uh, enormous challenges, but also enormous hopes. Thank you for joining us for this episode of This Is Democracy.

[00:43:28] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Kudimi.

Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find This is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.