This is Democracy – Episode 276: New School Year

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy. A podcast about the people of the United States. A podcast about citizenship. About engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues. And how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:24] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

We are recording this episode as the school year is just beginning and it’s an exciting time, an exciting time for students, for faculty, for parents, and for our society as a whole. So much of what we do So much of how we think about our democracy does center on universities. We are going to discuss today, uh, what to expect this year from our universities.

Uh, what are the issues and how should we think about the challenges and opportunities at our universities from protests and new leadership to new classes and questions of diversity. Uh, we’re going to cover the gamut of issues that surround our universities and surround our democracy centered on our universities.

And Zachary and I are going to have this discussion today. Just the two of us, since, uh, we spend a lot of time at universities, don’t we, Zachary?

[00:01:18] Zachary: Yes. Unfortunately,

[00:01:19] Jeremi: unfortunately,

[00:01:21] Zachary: I love university so

[00:01:23] Jeremi: much. I decided when I was a student, I’d never leave. That’s why I became a faculty

[00:01:28] Zachary: member. What grade does that make you in?

[00:01:31] Jeremi: I don’t know. I guess I’m in grade 30 or something like that. Um, well, I’m delighted. Definitely more than that. , probably more than that. Thank you Zachary. So to get us started is always Zachary, you have a poem today. What’s the title of your poem?

[00:01:43] Zachary: The title of my poem is A New Season. Well, let’s hear it as the year begins, the seasons change, the leaves already loose and floating.

The twigs already looking up or seeking earth, our eyes tracing their contours to the stars or to the dirt. At the beginning, it is never clear how exactly it will end, whether we’ll be wiser or just more tired, whether we will try or just be tried, whether we’ll be freer or less free. Every book could be the beginning of a new generation, or a tome left untouched, a list of possibilities never opened, a new world spun into the ground.

Every minute could be the moment of beginning, when an apple falls on prescient head. Or a pen falls into a poet’s hand, a paintbrush in the painter’s lap. Or every day that passes, the beginning of winter, coming in its cruelty to halt our steps and leave us neither fallen nor falling, but frozen like the branches.

Like the branches on cold winter nights, we too could shine like lanterns in our glistening ice, or we could be shadows. Cold and undefined.

[00:03:01] Jeremi: I love the mix of nature and university in that poem Zachary. What is your poem about?

[00:03:07] Zachary: Well, first of all, it’s about What it’s like to start school year at a moment like this not just the changing of the seasons here in New Haven It feels like today like the first day of fall Maybe 10 15 degrees cooler than earlier in the week But also in the midst of what is a chaotic And at a moment when college campuses have become a focus of political activity in our country, and are probably at the center of the so called culture war, it’s also about the sense of possibility of the new school year that I think we all feel, not just college students and professors, but also, Children, but it’s also a recognition that this school year more Children will be left behind.

More opportunities will be lost even as new new passions are kindled and new areas of knowledge are explored.

[00:04:06] Jeremi: Right, right. And, and following on that really crucial theme, Zachary, access is, of course, a big issue, uh, access for those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, access for those who come from, uh, different areas that are less represented.

Uh, how do you think universities are doing on this question of access?

[00:04:26] Zachary: Um, I think it’s a mixed bag. I think universities have gotten much better at finding talent across the country, across the world, in every kind of community, and from every kind of background. Um, but I still think that for most Americans and for most young people in the United States, a college education, um, and, uh, an elite college education is unattainable, and, uh, or at the very least, a daunting financial burden.

And I think that, uh, that’s one of the things that, uh, this election year centers around as much as it’s sort of fallen out of the news of late. Um, one of the biggest questions at the Supreme Court and in the halls of Congress and the White House centers around student debt, and that’s obviously critical.

Um, not to mention the fact that, um, so much of the conversation around the election centers on cultural questions, which often manifest themselves at school board meetings or in the classroom. Um, I, I think the question of access is critical, but it’s also not just a question of, of access, but a question of like what we are actually teaching.

[00:05:33] Jeremi: Right, right. And before we get to that latter topic about the content of our teaching, on the access issue, do you know a lot of students who have, um, debt, that are carrying debt to pay for college and does it affect their, their experience?

[00:05:49] Zachary: The irony is that like in our system, at a place like Yale, there are fewer, And fewer people who are in debt because, um, sort of elite universities in this country have a lot of money and they’ve, uh, thankfully in recent years committed a lot of that to helping students pay for college.

Um, but I think for the vast majority, not just of American students, but American college students, um, debt is necessary for a college education. Right. Uh, not just debt, but also, uh, student work and, um, all sorts of conditions that make it a lot harder to be a student. Uh, and I think that some of those conditions are still there at a place like Yale, but uh, less so.

[00:06:33] Jeremi: Right. I think that’s correct. And certainly at the University of Texas, uh, at Austin, we see more students with debt and more students working multiple jobs to pay for their college education. And there’s even more of that, of course, at other universities. The irony is, as you say, that often the most disadvantaged students at the non elite schools have the most debt that they have to cover because their institutions have fewer resources to, to cover the cost of tuition.

Fewer resources than a place like Yale or the University of Texas would have, certainly. Um, on the content, this is a topic that’s received a lot of controversial attention in the last few years. Um, first of all, do you find that universities are too woke?

[00:07:19] Zachary: No, I don’t even know what that means, to be honest.

I, I don’t

[00:07:22] Jeremi: think.

[00:07:23] Zachary: Neither do I. Wokeness. I think what I do think is true is that students are not and I mean, I don’t think this is unique to our period or to my generation is that students are often uncomfortable with nuance and students often struggle to grasp the complexities of a particular situation, uh, whether it be the situation in the Middle East or, um, the complexities of our elections process this year.

Um, but I don’t think they’re unique in that respect. Um, I do think, um, universities provide a kind of platform for students that sort of enable some of the worst mistakes. Um, but I also think that in some ways, That also enables some of the greatest successes, not just of student activism, but some of the greatest sort of learning moments for students.

And I’m hopeful that, like, in the coming year, there will be more attention from university administration, from professors, and from student groups, in having real nuanced, complex conversations around these issues. Um, and I’m hoping and I think that the election will contribute to that. Um, I think that the choice of Kamala Harris as the, as the nominee now has interested more young people in the election in a serious way than it did before.

[00:08:43] Jeremi: That makes a lot of sense. And that’s also good to hear, of course, not because of one’s particular politics, but of course, we want more young people engaged with the election. politics, participating, voting, having their opinions heard as, as you’ve said before in our podcast, it’s the young people who have the most at stake in the future of our democracy.

Um, oftentimes, uh, a caricature of universities and a caricature, which is, uh, certainly incorrect in my experience. Is that professors are trying to indoctrinate students and that what’s happening at universities is, uh, not education, but indoctrination and the, uh, imposition of, uh, particular opinions on, on students.

I think that’s very far from the truth. I think more of what we see at universities is a serious engagement with issues and often, uh, ideas that are strongly held. That have a research basis to them, but might sometimes be out of the mainstream, and that’s of course what university life is for, it’s to expose people to new, serious, research based ideas.

Do you agree with that? That it is a marketplace of ideas more than it is a site of indoctrination?

[00:09:52] Zachary: Um, I do agree with that. I mean, I think that, uh, There certainly are, like, ideological tendencies within universities, not Institutional or even as a result of of of any sort of conspiracy. But, um, simply because of the fact that majority of students who go to universities, the majority of professors who teach at universities tend to lean.

Left. Um, I, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing inherently. I think what every university should seek to do is to challenge its students beliefs, uh, in, in, in every way. And I think that universities at their best succeed in doing that. And it’s less a question of what’s the overall ideological makeup of a university, and more whether um, a university is committed to rigorous, uh, dialogue.

And, um, I, I think that that’s the question we should be asking, not whether, you know, there are enough, you know, conservatives at universities, but whether conservative students and liberal students alike. Um, you know, are forced to think critically.

[00:10:55] Jeremi: Don’t you think also that the assumption of a liberal leaning, left leaning university is flawed?

That that’s just not an accurate assumption? It depends based on your discipline, doesn’t it? The arts tend to draw those who are a little left of center. That’s never been different. That’s almost always been the case. But a business school or even engineering, uh, or other pre professional, you know, Majors will likely draw more people who are conservative.

Isn’t that true? I

[00:11:23] Zachary: don’t think it’s necessarily true. I mean, I think I also think that like the binary, you know, political definitions are less operative at a university level. Um, I don’t think that there’s some overwhelming liberal tendency in the arts or conservative tendency in engineering or the sciences.

Um, maybe, maybe more in a sort of attitudinal sense. But I do think what is important to recognize is that, um, you know, each of these spaces are designed not to reinforce the beliefs of the people in them, at least in their ideal form, but to challenge those beliefs and to lead to productive dialogue.

And I think at their best, you know, every department does that. I think some better than others.

[00:12:08] Jeremi: Speaking of challenges and different points of view and binaries of one kind or another, uh, you were very, uh, involved with, um, many of the, um, controversies surrounding protests on campus at Yale, uh, and, and of course I was, uh, involved with some of that at the University of Texas.

Um, this is a big story from last year. protests on campus, the polarization of campuses, um, the increase in anti Semitism and I think also anti Palestinian attitudes on campus. First of all, right now at the start of the school year, do you see evidence, uh, that we’re going back to those difficult days of last spring?

Some. I mean,

[00:12:52] Zachary: we’ve already seen multiple protests, uh, here. What I do think will help is that the election has, I think, sucked a lot of that attention away. I think a lot of students who might be tempted, or who may have participated in the protests last semester, will channel their energies towards Kamala Harris campaign.

Or they will Um, you know, see the protests as detrimental to the efforts on the left to defeat Donald Trump. And I think hopefully that will lead to the protests, you know, having less oxygen. Um, I, I also do think that, uh, the protests in general are going to get worse in tone. Um, I think what we’ve seen is a sort of radicalization of the court.

protests, but I think they’re also going to get smaller at the same time, and it remains to be seen what kind of impact that has on

[00:13:53] Jeremi: campus life. Is there more dialogue? Are people on different sides talking more, or are they just avoiding each other?

[00:14:02] Zachary: I think that, honestly, at the moment, people are not avoiding each other, but they’re sort of Contort metalizing a lot of these conversations.

I think things are getting better. I think people who and I certainly feel this in my life people who are already friends, you know, with other people who disagree with them are getting better at discussing these issues and a concrete. compassionate way. Um, and I think all of us are sort of tired of, or most of us are tired of the kind of rhetoric that defined our last year on campus.

And most of us are tired of, you know, terrible scenes of war and worry and fear. And I think that, you know, At this moment, at least, I think there are a lot of common feelings, even if there are very, you know, different, divergent opinions.

[00:14:51] Jeremi: Zachary, you’re very involved in the Jewish community, uh, at Yale. Um, oftentimes, um, there are statements made about, uh, Jewish students not feeling comfortable on university campuses.

There certainly has been anti Semitism on many campuses, but do you feel comfortable as a Jew at Yale? I

[00:15:12] Zachary: mean, I think it’s a hard question to answer. I mean, I don’t feel, I never feel physically unsafe, but I mean, I think there are moments when Jews on campus here feel unwelcome. There are moments when, you know, anti Semitism rears its head.

But I think what’s really important to recognize is that Jewish community on college campuses in the United States, and particularly, um, uh, at places like, you know, Yale, which have very large Jewish communities, uh, is stronger than ever, and the institutions and the support, uh, is stronger than ever, if not from, you know, the administration itself, which I do think we have here, and some campuses maybe not, at least from, you know, Jewish alumni and Jewish students and Jewish parents, um, and I think, you know, it’s important to recognize that even as we deal with the problems of anti Semitism, uh, to celebrate, it’s important to celebrate, you know, the

[00:16:03] Jeremi: unique

[00:16:04] Zachary: strength of Jewish community in this world.

[00:16:06] Jeremi: Right, right. Do you perceive that, um, and obviously it’s not your community, but do you perceive that Muslim students have the same challenges and opportunities?

[00:16:14] Zachary: I think so. I think, um, I think at least on this campus, the, this moment has, has become one of sort of renewed attention to developing funding, supporting, um, uh, Muslim and non Muslim Arab student life on campus.

Um, I, I do think that some of the challenges are a little different. I think certainly, I think certainly I would, I would imagine that Jewish students feel more support from administration while Muslim students feel more support from the student body. Um, that, that is, I think probably a generalization, but I also think that to an extent, like professors, and you could definitely speak better to this than I could, but professors and students, you know, with direct ties to the conflict.

On both sides, I feel similar things. They feel ostracized. They feel, you know, silence. They feel, you know, upset. They feel like their pain isn’t recognized.

[00:17:14] Jeremi: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s become difficult, uh, to talk about these issues because there’s concern that we, regardless of which side you’re on or somewhere in between, that you’ll say something that will offend people and, uh, whether intentionally or not.

And that will cause, uh, difficulties, uh, in future conversations. So there, there’s been actually, from what I’ve, what I’ve experienced, more an effort to avoid the issue than discuss it directly. And I, I think that that goes against the spirit of universities. As universities, we should be taking on controversial issues.

We should be encouraging dialogue around discussions. difficult issues, and we should be bringing different perspectives together for respectful conversation and disagreement. And I, I think we’ve avoided that because this is such a difficult, such a personal, and such a hard issue to talk about.

[00:18:05] Zachary: Um, I think that’s right.

I, I think also the hardest part, and, and I haven’t necessarily felt this, but I think a lot of students and friends of mine have, is when your identity itself becomes offensive to someone, whether that means, you know, being Israeli or, or being Palestinian, you know what I mean? And I think, I think, I think that is probably the scariest part, is seeing, for a lot of professors and scholars, you know, their very identity and their very sort of, you know, perspective on the world, which they really sort of can’t control, becoming offensive to some.

And I think that’s not only detrimental to dialogue, but it’s detrimental to, you know, the well being and, uh, of students and faculty and the ability of everyone on campus to thrive.

[00:18:50] Jeremi: Right. I agree. I agree. As we said at the start, you know, universities, they thrive on bringing different people together with different points of view, but that only works when the different points of view are brought into conversation, into dialogue with one another, not when they’re siloed in different parts of campus.

And I think there is too much of that siloing going on on various campuses, probably on most campuses now. On the issue of diversity, which relates to what we’re talking about here, Zachary, there of course has been a lot of controversy in recent years about that. Um, should universities be doing more, uh, to emphasize diversity?

Or is that giving students who don’t fall into the most, uh, flashy categories of diversity, does that give them a disadvantage in emphasizing diversity? What’s your position based on your experiences as a student? What’s your position on the DEI debate?

[00:19:44] Zachary: I think in many ways it’s a false debate. I don’t think it’s about, I don’t think it’s really about, you know, DEI.

I think on the one hand, it’s an effort on the right to attack universities for teaching, you know, critical history or, or, or critical, you know, studies. But on the other hand, I do think that there’s a, there’s a reductionist element to some of the attitudes, um, on, on the left, um, on campuses in the sense that, you know, You know, focusing solely on identity often obscures, you know, the more interesting elements of someone’s perspective or the more interesting aspects of thought.

And I think that what we should be encouraging is, you know, diversity of backgrounds, yes, but also, and probably most importantly, you know, diversity of point of view. And that doesn’t mean having more conservatives. That means, you know, Having a really diverse perspective on a given issue and, you know, encouraging people to read both the classics and both, you know, the Western canon and new, uh, non canonical or non traditionally canonical works.

It’s encouraging people to, you know, engage with tradition, but also to challenge tradition in new ways. Question. Um, and engage with, uh, nutrition. I think that, I think that, uh, is, is the real problem is that, you know, on either side, on either extremity of the debate, um, it’s very difficult to find nuance.

[00:21:15] Jeremi: What about diversity training? Um, many campuses were doing that and they were asking for diversity statements from, uh, faculty applicants. Um, what’s your sense of that? I didn’t

[00:21:26] Zachary: really experience much of that. I think you could probably speak better to that than I could. I, honestly, I just find it kind of, um, like a waste of time in a lot of cases.

I think we need to have frank conversations about, like, student behavior on campus, but I don’t think we need to obsess from the beginning about every, you know, detail of student interactions. And we want to encourage people to feel comfortable, you know, messing up and learning from their mistakes and not, you know, expecting everyone to To do everything perfectly.

And you know, trying to create an environment where everyone acts in the exact same way. I think what we want to encourage from the beginning are like frank conversations about these issues. And we want to encourage people to um, We want to encourage people to change their minds, to learn, to think differently.

Um, not to think in a particular way, but you know, to learn from their mistakes. And, uh, you know, I

[00:22:23] Jeremi: think there’s important knowledge and experience that needs to be shared about how people from different backgrounds experience, um, university life. And we all can learn to be more sensitive and effective in addressing a wide range of diversity issues.

The challenge with diversity training is that it does often become, um, Brutonized and habitual in a way that actually is more about fulfilling a certain requirement rather than actually addressing the issues. And sometimes the training becomes a kind of, uh, process that is divorced from actually what the process is supposed to achieve.

And I think that’s part of the challenge that, that we had with, with DEI training, certainly at the University of Texas and elsewhere. I’m for. Diversity training, but I’m for doing it in ways that are substantive and not, um, about creating a process that serves its own interests in a whole industry of people who are simply advocating something rather than, uh, actually involved in making change.

And I think that’s the challenge is making the process serve the purpose. And so the criticisms I think about wasting time or time being spent on the wrong thing is that That’s a fair one, but that doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there’s a lot we can learn about being more sensitive.

So there’s a lot I can learn as a professor about being more attentive to the needs of my students without in any way, uh, reducing the rigor of what I’m bringing to the classroom. In fact, it might allow me to increase the rigor in the classroom and make that rigor more effective in reaching the students around me.

So that’s the challenge, I think. It’s worth spending, I think, a few minutes now that we’ve dealt with some of the controversies and some of the big public issues with what I think is the most important issues, Zachary, and the one that I think is missed and the one that motivates me, as you know. Which is the value of a college education.

Why is it so important? I think you and I believe that more people should be in universities. You said this earlier in our conversation, not fewer. Um, and you and I believe that a university experience is transformative in the lives of students and, and others. And we’ve experienced that you and I ourselves, our lives have been deeply shaped.

Yours are deeply shaped. Your life is being shaped as we speak by your university experience, and I think you would say largely in positive ways, certainly in positive ways for me as the, you know, child of immigrants from a very modest background, university life opened entirely new worlds for me. So how do we convey that?

What is the real value of what’s happening at a university, and why is it important for people, even people who don’t want to be scholars, to go to university in our world today?

[00:25:11] Zachary: Well, uh, I’ve been thinking about this issue a lot, actually. A friend of mine who’s a senior wrote a very, a very interesting column for the Yale Daily News on this very question, which is, you know, when you’re a freshman and you’re starting college, or when you’re applying to college, you think you’re doing it, you know, to get a job.

Or to find all the answers, but what you realize in the end is what you’re doing is not, you know, learning to find the answers, learning how to be a great engineer, or, you know, even making like as many friends as possible, building your network, what you’re doing is, you know, instead of finding the answers is finding the questions, and I think that’s like the most important task.

It forces you to ask the kind of questions that you never otherwise ask. And you leave a university knowing far more than you knew when you entered. But you also leave the university thinking you know even less, because you leave a university with so many more questions about the world and so many more problems that you want to solve and so many more, uh, new experiences that, uh, you know, points to new ideas.

That it’s a fully transformative experience, but it’s not, it’s not there to serve a set, it’s there to make you into a different person and a different kind of human being.

[00:26:30] Jeremi: And how does that happen? What is it that’s doing that? Is it the experience of being around other young people? Is it the classroom experience?

Obviously, it’s a bit of all these things, but how do we describe that, especially to someone who hasn’t been at a university, Zachary, or someone who has a very, very, um, instrumental view of this, right there. The instrumental view is I send my child to university to learn, you know, these skills so they can get this job and earn this income.

Obviously you’re saying something different. How do we explain that to someone who cares but doesn’t understand?

[00:27:04] Zachary: Well, I think the way you usually put it or always put to me was that you learn, you don’t go to college to, you know, to find out what the greatest thoughts are. You learn to, you go to college to learn how to think yourself.

And I think the way you do that is through exactly what we were talking about before, which is open, nuanced, critical dialogue. Uh, and that’s what the best classes are, and that’s what, you know, the best conversations outside of class are. And that’s the kind of thing that you really don’t have an opportunity to find elsewhere.

You know, a place where everyone is, you know, Thinking, uh, about how they want the world to change. Thinking about, you know, how, where, what their, where their beliefs come from and how they might change. Uh, it’s a place where there’s so much possibility. Um, and everyone else is, you know, embracing those possibilities at the same time, at least, you know, And I think that is so unique and it turns you into the kind of person who can respond to any challenge and it returns, it turns you into the kind of person who can embrace any new possibility and new experience.

And I think it’s very hard to do that otherwise.

[00:28:11] Jeremi: I agree 100%. I mean, the way I put it, and you’ve referred to this, is that what a university offers is the opportunity first to find your passions, to find what is it that draws your heart and your brain, and we don’t know what that is. There are many very successful people who are not pursuing their passions.

They’re good at something, and they’ve monetized it, um, and that’s fine. But college offers the opportunity for you to find not only what you’re good at, but what you love, what you love doing. And we know the best work is the work that you love. That’s not true. Being hopelessly idealistic, that’s actually very realistic.

That a career is most sustainable when it’s a career that’s well remunerated, of course, but a career where one loves what one does and college offers the opportunity, first of all, to find love, to find your purpose. passion as a thinker and a doer and a professional. It offers an opportunity to interact with so many different perspectives, perspectives that you read about and study, but perspectives that you encounter in a day to day basis.

That’s why diversity is important, not for moral reasons. It’s important for substantive reasons, for rational reasons, that diversity exposes us to more, makes us smarter. And probably the real skill that one learns at a university, and what gives university graduates the real advantage they have by every statistical measure is that you learn how to learn.

And we’re in a world where every industry and every activity is changing so fast. Um, the best way to anchor yourself for the future is not to be the best at doing what is being done today, but to be the best at learning how to do what is going to be done tomorrow. So you don’t want to be the best, uh, writer of yesterday, you want to be the best writer of tomorrow.

You don’t want to be the best engineer of 2022, you want to be the best engineer of 2030. And it’s learning how to learn, learning how to adjust, learning how to take new information in, learning how to assimilate large, large quantities of information, learning how to critically evaluate, to write, to communicate, uh, all of these basic things that are central to any part of, of a liberal arts education.

Um. And it’s sad that not everyone has access to that. Uh, and there are different ways for it to be delivered. And there are different experiences that can be offered to people in different situations. But it does seem to me that it’s, it’s a core element of democracy. Do you agree with that?

[00:30:42] Zachary: Yes,

[00:30:43] Jeremi: I think

[00:30:44] Zachary: so.

I think it is a core element of democracy. I think it’s sort of constantly been our saving grace as a democracy that, you know, for all of our challenges, We have sort of some of the freest spaces in the world to ask these kinds of critical questions, uh, in safe, uh, environments, uh, you know, places for experimentation and innovation, but also, you know, safe spaces for mistakes and failures.

And I think that, you know, we need to preserve that if we want to preserve our democracy.

[00:31:12] Jeremi: I agree a hundred percent. Why is it that, uh, after we’ve spent so much investing in universities over the last generation that we’ve yet had such a crisis of our democracy? And why are so many educated people, you and I have talked about this before, who have come out of universities so, so anti democratic in their behavior?

How is that possible, Zachary?

[00:31:37] Zachary: I think it’s possible because there are still elements of our universities that can be used instrumentally. At their best, they are not instrumental. I do think that at their core, they do not serve an instrumental purpose. That is not their mission, and that’s not the goal of But I think we place too much of an emphasis on, you know, professional accomplishments and, you know, concrete academic accomplishments that we often overlook the key moral and ethical education that, that is necessary.

And I think if someone leaves an elite university and cannot think about anything more than power or money, then they really haven’t been educated, even if they’ve read Aristotle.

[00:32:22] Jeremi: Right, right. So you think we should double down on more ethical education, more philosophical education?

[00:32:30] Zachary: I think so. But, I mean, it’s not just, you know, forcing people to read these kinds of things and to discuss them in class.

But, you know, I think that this is where the diversity comes in. It’s, you know, Forcing them to encounter people with different experiences and forcing them to, you know, empathize with and think of themselves in the, in the kind of positions that they may not have ever comprehended before. That is key. Um, that’s why diversity is so

[00:32:58] Jeremi: important.

[00:32:58] Zachary: Right, right.

[00:32:59] Jeremi: In a sense, the democratic ethos is to not only think about your own success, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but to try to understand the positionality, the perspective of others, and to be in a system that affirms the voices of others as well as oneself. Yes? So the final question I want to ask you, Zachary, for our discussion today, this is, this has been wonderful.

We’ve covered a range of issues that I think everyone thinks about. It’s amazing how much of university experience and controversy is in the news every day and will be in the news in the coming weeks and months, we hope in positive ways, but certainly in controversial ways, this will all be in the news.

What are you most excited about for this year? What, what are you most hopeful will happen not just on your campus, but in the world of universities? What, what, what really excites you? What, what is it that we see as a real possibility in the new school year for an enhancement and an improvement in our democracy?

[00:34:00] Zachary: It’s a, it’s a good question. I think what excites me the most is just seeing how interested. Young people are in these questions. I think it’s a misnomer that young people want to see their college education as instrumental. They sometimes are taught to see their college education as instrumental, but I think instinctually young people understand they’re not spending four years of their lives to become a good engineer.

They’re spending four years of their lives to become a better person and to do the things that they never had got to do before and to become better people. And then that makes me hopeful. And I think it’s good for our democracy too. Because they want to engage in new ways and they want to learn new things about their society, um, even as they may be also learning.

Advanced engineering, chemistry, and I think that that that’s what’s most exciting about being on a college campus. Yes, yes. I

[00:34:53] Jeremi: agree, and I want to build on that, and I want our listeners to remember they heard this here first, but I think this is going to be a breakthrough year. I think this is going to be a year which will certainly have its controversies, but I think we’re at a moment now, and this happens at different moments in the history of our democracy, when a new generation is going to break through.

Uh, an older generation of personalities, politicians, business leaders has held on to power for a long time. Some of that has to do 2008 recession, and uh, the need for many people not to retire, but to stay in, uh, stay in their jobs. Uh, but I think, uh, in some ways, uh, President Biden’s decision not to run for reelection, whether that was what he wanted to do or not, um, really marks a fundamental cultural and political change in our society.

And I think young people recognize, the young people I’ve talked to, that this is their country now. And that the old men, quite frankly, um, are not going to be able to govern. Not that they really have done a good job anyway in the last few years. And I do think there’s a sense among young people that this is their country and that they need to, um, step up.

And, and I see that ethos. I think some of that is in the greater participation we’re seeing in this election now. Um, but I think it’s broader than that. I think there is a change in ethos, and I think that’s a good thing. And I think universities this year, next year, are going to be, uh, cockpits of, um, Place and growth and experimentation and creativity and new leadership.

And we’re going to see a whole group of new leaders come out of these cockpits of creativity, uh, in the next few years. And I’m really excited to be a part of that. Is that too optimistic, Zachary? No, I don’t think it’s too

[00:36:42] Zachary: optimistic. I’m not convinced this is going to be a breakthrough year. Um, but I definitely think that there’s a lot of possibility.

And that there’s never been a more exciting time to be on a college camp.

[00:36:56] Jeremi: I think that’s right. I think that’s right. Well, I tell you what, uh, we will have many, many opportunities throughout the year on our podcast week after week to discuss these issues. And we can come back at the end of the academic year and see how well you and I assessed where we are.

There will certainly be, uh, things that happen that we can’t anticipate now, but it’ll be interesting to see how our understanding of the year at the beginning matches up with what we’ve experienced by the end of the year. How does that sound to you? Sounds good. Well, it is wonderful. As always Zachary to do this podcast with you.

It’s fun every once in a while when we can take the time to just do it. The two of us, uh, we love having our distinguished guests, but it’s particularly nice to, um, um, Have the opportunity to do this, uh, with you and, uh, and to do it just the two of us once in a while like this. I want you to know how much I appreciate doing this with you, Zachary.

[00:37:54] Zachary: Thank you, Will. I love doing this too.

[00:37:56] Jeremi: And, uh, you and I, I know, both deeply appreciate all of our listeners and all of our Substack subscribers. And we encourage you to encourage others to, uh, listen and to subscribe to our Substack. And continue to join us, please, each week. For this is Democracy.

[00:38:22] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find This is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.