This Is Democracy – Episode 269: British Elections

Intro: This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you, a podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

Jeremi: This week we are going to discuss the extraordinary, transformative, or so we think, elections in Great Britain of July 4th, of all days. Um, on that date, The Labour Party in Great Britain, which had been out of power for quite a long time, scored an extraordinary victory, winning 412 seats in the House of Commons and a commanding majority of now 170 seats against the Tory Party, which had been the party in power for many years.

Jeremi: This is the largest victory for the Labour Party since Tony Blair’s election in 1997, so almost three decades ago. It’s quite a sea change in British politics, a sea change that has been coming, but nonetheless is extraordinary in its outcome. And we are joined today by a leading scholar of British policy to help us understand these elections and their implications for domestic and especially foreign policy.

Jeremi: From Great Britain, this is Dr. William James, who is a research fellow at the Center for Grand Strategy at King’s College, London. One of my favorite. English institutions. William is the author of British Grand Strategy in the Age of American Hegemony. He also publishes frequently on the history of British policymaking in journals such as the European Journal of International Security, International Politics, and War on the Rocks.

Jeremi: William received his DPhil, which is an English equivalent of the PhD, though we might quibble over what the difference is. William earned his DPhil in International Relations, uh, from the University of Oxford just a few years ago. William, thank you for joining us.

William: Thanks very much for the invitation.

William: Pleasure to be with you guys.

Jeremi: Before we get into our discussion, uh, with, uh, Dr. William James on British, uh, elections and policy, of course, we have our scene setting poem from Mr. Zachary Suri. Uh, Zachary, what’s the title of your poem today? I’m not sure.

Zachary: Sonnet for our special friends. Oh, I’m ready for

Jeremi: a sonnet today, Zachary.

Jeremi: Let’s hear it.

Zachary: Across the pond, it’s not much better, no, Despite the rain and royal wedding kitsch, Despite the PM’s lack of orange glow, The poor are poorer and the rich are rich. Across the pond, they have been waiting long For foodstuffs and impatient waiting rooms. They wait and have been waiting all along.

Zachary: Link. They see the hints of smoke, they smell the fumes. It is a fire that has been a light for 14 years of mediocre rule, for virus parties and a Brexit fight, the fool each time replaced by newer fools. No more of this, at last, no more contempt. May both our shores be blessed with countries kempt.

Jeremi: I love it, Zachary.

Jeremi: Uh, what inspired this sonnet?

Zachary: Um, I think this sonnet was inspired by, uh, the tendency of many Americans, particularly young people, uh, in the United States, uh, to think that everything is better, uh, in different parts of the world, uh, than it is here at home, uh, particularly in, in Europe and in the UK. Um, and while the news, um, Uh, from, uh, July 4th is maybe hopeful for many Americans.

Zachary: Uh, Britain still has a lot of problems that we share, uh, and I think it’s important to recognize that both our countries, um, together, uh, and in our individual domestic policy spheres have a lot of challenges to overcome still.

Jeremi: Yes, yes, this is, uh, certainly a moment of difficulty, uh, as well as opportunity for the Anglo American world, uh, surrounding issues of democracy and governance.

Jeremi: Uh, on that note, uh, William, what was it that allowed Labour to turn things around? How did they, how did they score this victory at this moment? Well, I’m

William: not sure I can put it as well as the, um, As well as that sonnet, to be honest. But, um, yeah, no, it’s a superb rendition there. So, I mean, I think, you know, if we go back five years to the, uh, the last election, and we’ve got the kind of, you know, the legacy of Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader at the time, against Boris Johnson, Conservative leader, who then won a substantial majority of 80 odd seats, you know, got over 40 percent of the vote.

William: People I remember at the time were saying, You know, Boris is going to be in power for a decade to come. So Labour’s victory this, uh, this month is really quite surprising given that kind of history. And I think there are sort of two sides to the story really here. One is their kind of real complete collapse, the Conservative vote, you know, dropping 20 points in the vote share and losing a substantial number of seats down to, uh, I think 121, which is that lowest number of MPs ever.

William: And there’s a number of reasons for that, you know, so the kind of governing style of Boris Johnson, the number of scandals that happened under his watch, the economic difficulties that emerged through, um, courtesy of the war in Ukraine, and of course, COVID, which of course wasn’t the government’s fault, but a number of scandals emerged from that, such as the famous party date one where a number of people inside number 10 were sort of flagged in the lockdown rules.

William: And there was this perception of, uh, you know, one rule for, uh, those that govern and one rule for the rest, which ate into the government’s popularity. And then you had the sort of a disastrous and short lived tenure of Liz Truss, who tried to implement a sort of radical free market, uh, agenda, um, when the economy was already in quite, uh, precarious shape.

William: And, um, that really damaged the, uh, sort of economic credibility of the Tories. On top of that, you know, you’ve got, I think in general, you’ve got a kind of 14 year period where governments, uh, tend to struggle after a long period of time, whether, you know, they sort of come up against, um, uh, sort of path dependent problems where they’ve been unable to fix things, whether it’s house building, transportation, the NHS, or immigration, for example.

William: So you’ve got those kind of headwinds playing against you. So I think when Rishi Sunak came in a couple of years ago as prime minister to take over after those trusts, brain, he had a pretty difficult job. And I think to some extent he did steady the ship in some ways, you know, for inflation down. And there are a number of things that he could claim credit for.

William: Um, but, uh, I think it was a very difficult task for him to try and win the election, given all of those kind of, uh, uh, headwinds coming against him. And then during the election campaign itself, you had the emergence of a right wing party. uh, reform under Nigel Farage, a sort of Brexiteer, um, which really ate into the Conservative vote and deprived them of any real chance of, um, even keeping a, you know, a, uh, number of seats.

William: Against that, you know, so that’s the sort of, the one side of the story is the sort of collapse of the Conservative, vote. And I also, I’d also add actually, in addition to that, the, um, the collapse of the SNP vote in Scotland, the Scottish National Party, they’d been kind of, uh, preeminent up in, up north of the border for, uh, for some time.

William: And again, due to a series of scandals and a long period in power, that, that government is now, uh, in trouble. Uh, and their number of MPs in Westminster has dropped from about 58 to nine with Labour picking up most of the gains there. So there’s, there’s the two sort of, that’s one side of the story and sort of, uh, establishment parties, if you will, um, they’re, uh, taking a pounding.

William: And, but I think that, Keir Starmer, the new prime minister is a lucky gentleman, I think that would probably only tell, you know, a little bit of the, what’s going on here. It wouldn’t, uh, elucidate the full picture because I think he does deserve some credit for what he did to the Labour Party over the course of the last decade.

William: five years. You know, as I said at the start, there’s that the legacy of Jeremy Corbyn, the issues around antisemitism in the Labour Party, around some of his views on NATO and defence policy, which were not really in keeping with the mainstream of British politics at all. And so Starmer, I think, had to sort of detoxify and change Labour internally to begin with, which he did, and getting kind of a firmer hand on candidates election, ensuring the far left candidates were kept out, um, and then turning his guns slowly on the Tories, uh, mistakes.

William: And of course they, as I said, didn’t really help themselves in a lot of these cases, but there are really sort of two tricky points really, I think on what, what he managed to do here. One was to kind of restore their economic credibility. And he’s done that by sort of, you know, uh, emphasizing this point with Rachel Reeves’s new chancellor around fiscal rules, you know, no excessive borrowing, um, and trying to repair relations with business.

William: And the other is around defense, you know, and, and maintaining this kind of three pronged approach really on defense, which is around the NATO commitment. support for Ukraine and the nuclear deterrent, all of which were kind of suspect under the, under the tenure of Jeremy Corbyn. So, um, and then, and then finally he ran a, he ran a pretty tight campaign with a, with a, uh, with a system in place that sort of, uh, encouraged tactical voting, uh, in a lot of areas.

William: So given all of that, you know, I think you could say, um, Uh, on the one hand, it’s a story of the Conservative support really collapsing and, and, and, and the SNP support as well. But Starmer was also, he made his own luck by making the Labour Party once again a credible, uh, party for government.

Jeremi: That’s a very thorough explanation, Zachary.

Zachary: I just want to ask, I think it’s been difficult for a lot of Americans, uh, from afar to follow the turn, turn around in, uh, in the Britain Downing Street in the last few years. How would you describe Keir Starmer, the new Prime Minister of the UK to Americans or to people who maybe aren’t following British politics closely and how he might lead Britain in a different direction moving forward?

William: He has a legal background and he also served for His Majesty’s Public Prosecution Service. That’s a career in public service even before going into politics. Um, in terms of sort of. Uh, the way he distances himself from previous leaders, you know, you’ve always got the difference that he’s made between him and Jeremy Corbyn.

William: But I think in terms of his own personal background, he’s very different to a lot of the sort of recent prime ministers we’ve had in, uh, over the last decade, certainly. And he’s been at pains to remind people that he comes from quite humble circumstances compared to those. So his dad, for example, was a tool maker, which was a consistent point of messaging around the campaign.

William: His wife still works in the NHS, and so he, he would like to sort of emphasize this point that he feels, I think, quite grounded in the sort of realities of daily life, if that makes sense, as opposed to some of the leaders that we’ve had over the last few years. He’s, he’s been at great pains to distance himself from, uh, uh, Jeremy Corbyn, as I said, over the last five years, that’s been quite challenging during the election campaign because of the fact that he had previously served under him.

William: He joined the Labour Party, uh, well, many decades ago, but he went into politics. Um in his 50s and then rose quickly up to the ranks and worked on the Brexit brief under Corbyn and so He’s had to distance himself, which I think he’s done done quite successfully um, but there is a uh You know, there there is there there are sort of questions over what’s his kind of intellectual lineage with you know Previous leaders the labor party and that’s that’s an interesting area for americans to think about because I think you know You know Americans might not be familiar with many former British, uh, Labour Prime Ministers, but certainly one that is probably quite well known as Tony Blair for his steadfast support during the Iraq War, uh, and the Afghanistan War in the wake of 9 11.

William: And I think that a lot of people would immediately see Keir Starmer as being quite similar to, to Tony Blair, um, because he played a very kind of safe campaign. Um, uh, some people saw the manifesto as quite underwhelming, others see Ashley as There’s potential areas of quiet radicalism going back to sort of Labour’s, uh, Cold War, um, traditions.

William: Um, but I think for a lot of people, because of the sort of focus on moderation, sort of the fiscal rules, the language of growth and wealth creation rather than redistribution, there are some similarities with Tony Blair there, but at the same time, you’ve got a strong emphasis on public ownership. Um, So for example, uh, you know, over the course of the next five years, the plan apparently is to take Britain’s railways back into public ownership.

William: And that would have been very, uh, hard to see under a Tony Blair manifesto, certainly. So perhaps you’re better off looking back at some of the previous prime minister’s Um, from the, from, uh, uh, the cold war that labor had. So you think about Howard Wilson, who I know, uh, Keir Starmer, a number of his cabinet spoken about as admirers of, but also Atlee, uh, Clement Atlee, who was the, uh, prime minister after the second world war, he had, uh, you know, his government was instrumental in the founding of NATO, uh, and Keir Starmer’s new government has already said it’s implementing a NATO for a strategy.

William: Um, so there is this sort of similarity on foreign policy, perhaps in defense policy there. Um, And the other big thing I think that one of the main things this government’s going to be focusing on is the creation of new towns and house building. And those have both been kind of big features of labor governments from the Cold War, particularly Clement Attlee and Howard Wilson.

William: So, and if they’re successful in that, that would be quite a, quite a big change. Um, There’s a line often said about Harold, uh, about, um, Clement Attlee by, which is attributed to Winston Churchill that Attlee was a modest man with much to be modest about, you know, actually that, that belies the fact that he then achieved a great deal in government.

William: You know, it was one of the most reforming governments, uh, the UK has probably ever had. And I think there’s some similarities that you could draw with Stalmer at least from a temperament style, whether of course he married, she’s tough. Achieve so much in power as remains to be seen. So perhaps you can ask him back in five years And I’ll give you a clearer answer

Jeremi: Well, I think you’ve laid out though the ways in which uh, This labor leadership might in fact be taking the party back Back to the 40s and to the 60s with atli in the 40s and and harold wilson in the 1960s Uh, let’s let’s turn to europe in particular one of the most controversial areas of politics British policymaking in the last decade, of course, has been, uh, the British separation.

Jeremi: From europe, uh for many decades the british worked hard to become part of what was the european common market and then the european union And then with the brexit vote, uh, britain, of course, uh separated itself in 2016 from from europe What is the labor position the new government’s position on europe and on brexit?

William: Yeah, I mean the uh, I was actually living in america during sort of of the Brexit, uh, tumult, the divorce, the negotiations that were ongoing. And I remember being mopped widely for the state of British politics, although at the time American politics was in much better health as well. So, uh, but, uh, uh, yeah, so it goes back to that sonnet, the beauty, actually.

William: Um, so the, the first thing says, you know, you’ve got that legacy with three prime ministers, you know, Theresa May, Boris Johnson. Liz Truss, who all had quite a negative, uh, relationship with, with the European Union to varying degrees. I think the MO music changed a little bit when AK came in. Um, and he managed to sign the Windsor framework with the EU on Northern Ireland, which was particularly contentious subjects.

William: That is worth adding a lot, sort of, bit of context that things were on. The things have been moving in a more positive direction, um, over the last couple of years, and particularly I think because of the, the war in Ukraine, intensifying. In 2022, that’s made, you know, Europeans, collectively, that is, you know, obviously, including the UK, appreciate the sort of bigger picture and the need to work together.

William: So the Conservative government, even in sort of dying days, was moving towards a closer relationship in some limited ways. Labour has said that it wants to improve on the existing trade deal that the UK has with the EU. That’s going to be quite challenging, I think, because, um, It wants to do this without signing up to the customs union or the single market, which is where you can move around freely.

William: People can move around and work around Europe. Um, and so, um, you know, all of the different approaches that you could imagine to try and enhance trade. come with trade, you know, they come with trade offs. Uh, so, uh, you know, that might be taking kind of, uh, uh, a loss of sovereignty because the European court justice has a say in, you know, UK internal matters.

William: So there are good, that’s going to be, uh, an interesting space to watch, but I don’t know if the Europeans have a particular interest or. Energy and opening up a lot of the trade agreements that were, you know, quite recently signed. I don’t think people have the bandwidth or the willpower to kind of go back and reopen this.

William: Where I think, uh, you know, other than kind of tinkering around the edges with perhaps some smaller agreements around, um, I think they’ve spoken about trying to sign agreements on veterinary Uh, standards and, uh, the ability of artists to travel around Europe and that kind of thing. But in real substance, I think it’s quite likely there’s going to be, you know, major changes.

William: Where I think there might be more room for, uh, you know, uh, collaboration is in the sort of defense and security space. Labour’s spoken around creating a defense pact with the EU. Um, and I think there seems to be a lot of positivity from the Europeans towards that. What that actually entails is still very, you know, it’s very vague.

William: You know, a number of things have been cited from the UK involving itself in, um, the European Union’s defense projects at PESCO, um, uh, to, um, things around cybersecurity, but it may even be, you know, more of a political statement to begin with, rather than a formal treaty, which requires a sort of more bureaucratic and lengthy time period.

William: So definitely want to watch, um, but I see more kind of, uh, room for optimism in the defense and security space than any other in, uh, with regards to UK U relations, I think.

Jeremi: Right. And that, that would go hand in hand, of course, with Britain’s, uh, relations with NATO. The most important NATO partner, the most important British partner probably in most areas remains the United States.

Jeremi: Uh, we’ve long as historians, uh, commented on the special relationship as we call it between the United States and Great Britain. And maybe some of that was evident, uh, in the NATO meeting in Washington where Keir Starmer was, was quite complimentary of president, uh, Joe Biden. Where do you see us, uh, British relations going?

William: Well, I think there’s, there’s, uh, Really it’s worth separating into two parts this because on the one hand you have the political relationship Which gets to your question the other is the institutional one So, you know if we think about how it is, what does a labor victory kind of mean for the UK US relationship?

William: Um, I’m not actually a big fan of the term the special relationship. Um, I think it can Conveys the sense that there’s only one when actually both the UK and the US have a number of special relationships with another other a number of other countries. Um, and it can sound quite fawning, I think, from the British, uh, side of things.

William: And I know a number of, it’s actually been quite interesting that a number of recent prime ministers have not used that language for that exact reason. Um, so, but I, I do think there is a special relationship, um, at the institutional level. So if we think about you know, the cooperation in the nuclear realm, the military realm, the intelligence realm.

William: This is, um, you know, a degree of cooperation, uh, and sort of bonding between two states. It’s kind of unprecedented in, uh, the history of, you know, kind of sovereign states. And to that extent, it sort of doesn’t matter who’s in the White House or in Downing Street, because that, those kind of undercurrents of cooperation continue, regardless of who’s in power at the time, you know, sort of the surface, sort of the turbulence, the political level, because, you know, as you say, from a historical angle, there have been so many moments of crisis in Anglo American relations, you know, in the 20th century, early 21st century, where there’s been, you know, You know, particular politicians that don’t get on, um, or particular issues that create a friction, create friction between the two countries.

William: But actually underneath this, there’s this kind of regular dialogue and exchange of, um, uh, between departments, agencies, and bureaucracies. So that’s the kind of, that’s the first part. The second part is around the sort of political relationship and how much that’ll matter. I do think political affinity can kind of grease the wheels at times.

William: Uh, so, you know, I think there is obviously. more ideological, uh, uh, connection between more of an ideological connection between Keir Starmer and Joe Biden than would be between Keir Starmer and Donald Trump if he were to win later this year. Um, but, uh, it’s not, um, that doesn’t necessarily mean a terrific amount either because when you think about kind of the high points in this relationship between between two political elites.

William: You think about Thatcher and Reagan or Blair and Bush perhaps. There have always been moments when national interests have trumped and they’ve ended up leading to a spat in the alliance. You know, you think about, uh, Thatcher and Reagan, um, the, the fallout over Grenada or even the Americans public stance of neutrality during the Falklands War.

William: But again, coming back to that institutional point, while that was going on, The US Navy was providing the British with all this material assistance to enable the UK to retake the Falklands. So there’s, there’s this two level game that happens with, with the UK US relationship. One thing I would say about the, um, Labour Party though at the moment, which is quite interesting, is they have not just put all their eggs in one basket with Starmer.

William: So yes, uh, they, they seem to have a good relationship with the Democrats. I think Keir Starmer’s described Labour and the Democrats as sister parties. But I know that, uh, David Lammy has been in Washington, uh, he’s the, now the foreign secretary and he, uh, has a number of links to the U. S., uh, uh, from his time studying there and since, and sort of while he was in opposition as shadow foreign secretary, he spent a lot of time in Washington, um, and was meeting a lot of the kind of, uh, the figures you might expect to be in a future Trump administration, people like J.

William: D. Vance, Mike Pompeo, um, and sort of preparing to at least, you know, be able to have, you know, productive conversations if that situation presents itself. So they are sort of hedging their bets in case, um, uh, the, the Republicans, uh, emerge victoriously in the year because it is such a, you know, it’s such an essential relationship to, to the UK.

Jeremi: Sure, sure. And in that sense, there is also a tradition of labor working with Republicans as well as Democrats, even though they might see, the Labor Party might see the Democratic Party as more of a sister party, as you say so well, William. Um, Zachary?

Zachary: How do you think, uh, this election, uh, the election of Keir Starmer as prime minister will affect, uh, the United Kingdom stance on Ukraine?

Zachary: The UK, the United States have, of course, been two of the strongest supporters of Ukraine in its, in its war against Russia in the last few months.

William: This is, uh, one of the areas where you can categorically say there’ll be no change. You know, if you were to put, um, I don’t want to say a thorough betting because the election actually was, uh, hit one of the scandals of the most recent election campaign was.

William: A number of people who put bets on the election. So this very poor choice of words there. But anyway, the, um, uh, the, uh, I would say this will be one of the consistencies between the previous conservative government and, and this labor government, uh, is the, you know, the UK has been firmly in Ukraine’s corner actually before 2022, it was providing a lot of assistance since 2014.

William: Um, But it has, uh, obviously stepped that up a lot in recent years, uh, in the last couple of years, particularly, obviously, and it’s the third largest donor of bilateral assistance to Kiev. Um, and it also, I think one of the interesting things the UK has done in this conflict is that it’s often been the outrider, uh, in providing, lethal assistance.

William: So whenever anyone, whenever states in NATO are debating, you know, which, which, which bit of kit should we send next without kind of triggering this escalation ladder, the UK has always been the first country to kind of go, we’re going to send, uh, you know, a small amount of this kit now and see how things go.

William: So that’s, well, that’s, you know, uh, the first country to send tanks, the Challenger twos, or even send long range missiles at the storm shadow. The UK has kind of always been our. In, in, in front on those kind of issues, which I think in a way the Americans, I imagine there are many conversations going on around this as to how that this is staggered and staged, but I imagine that can be a hindrance, but also a help in a way to sort of test out.

William: how the Russians are going to react to that, uh, enhanced, uh, lethal assistance. Um, so yeah, I, I don’t see any change in that. The Labour Party’s been, you know, as I said, since, since sort of Corbyn, uh, Corbyn being, um, losing the 2019 election, Kirstein taking over, and then the war in Ukraine intensifying in 2022, this has all been part of the new Labour kind of drive around defence and security, trying to take it off as an election issue and make sure that their commitment to NATO relates to Ukraine.

William: Is is sort of rock solid. Um, so, uh, so yeah, there won’t be much change there. I think.

Jeremi: Uh, William, if I could go to another, uh, foreign policy issue, uh, China, um, that of course came up at the NATO meeting. Uh, and in fact, NATO for the first time that I can remember issued a statement, uh, about China, uh, discouraging trying to discourage Chinese support for Russia.

Jeremi: Um, there have, of course, been differences between the U. S. and some of its European allies on relations with, with China. Some European allies are, are still committed to trying to limit what they see as a more belligerent U. S. policy toward, uh, China. Where does the labor government stand on China and its relationship to Europe and the United States, uh, trade as well as security issues?

William: Yeah, this has been one of the kind of sore points in the UK U. S. relationship under Well, certain conservatives the last 14 years, um, because there have been a number of kind of issues, whether it was the, um, a double IB, the Asian infrastructure investment bank, or the bigger issue around Huawei, um, and, uh, telecommunications software in the UK, these kind of two issues.

William: were where the British and Americans were at least to begin with on divergent paths. And so, uh, it’s definitely a sort of a sensitive issue because I think the UK, like a lot of European countries, um, has tried to have its cake and eat it a lot of ways in terms of its China strategy, where having a sort of positive relationship with China on trade, um, and also trying to balance the relationship with the Americans, that’s become increasingly difficult over the last few years.

William: I think there’s also been a real change. Really in the last sort of two or three years in terms of how China is seen in the UK. Um, the Labour Party, uh, has pledged to come out with a new China strategy. I think the UK’s China strategy in general has been quite blurred and sort of, um, muddled over the last few years, again, reflecting this difficulty of, you know, economics versus security.

William: And so it’s one of the areas where we don’t know that much about, uh, how Labour will handle some of these, these, these issues, which have very thorny trade offs. Uh, I think the first Issue that we’ll see. Uh, uh, this kind of the rubber meeting the road, if you like, uh, and this, uh, I suppose, uh, pun intended is around, uh, cars and electric vehicle, electric battery powered, um, vehicles, um, because, uh, you know, the, the, the Americans have, have, have sanctioned these, these Chinese products and the Europeans are doing the same as the UK is going to get a position position where it either, um, Follows the, you know, the Americans and Europeans, or it takes its own road.

William: I think they’ll probably end up being in the same position as the, uh, Americans and, and Europeans, but this will be the first sort of, uh, issue where we see attention on, on China, I think for the, for the new labor government.

Jeremi: And as you look at labor policy, William, and you put it in historical perspective, uh, perhaps this is, um, an unfair question, but nonetheless, uh, is it appropriate to see Great Britain still as a great power in the world or, or has it become, maybe it’s long been, uh, more of a middle power? How do you think about its influence on a global scale relative to behemoths like the United States and China today?

William: Well, it’s a question we, we wrestle with, I think UK. Um, uh, so I mean, I guess it depends on how we define great power, right? You know, if we think about, From an academic perspective, if you think about people like Barry Buzan, who’ve written a lot about this, and he talks about superpowers, great powers, or regional powers, you might make an argument that the UK fits just into that great power category, um, if you’ve got this, you know, kind of category above with, with the superpowers in.

William: Um, I personally view it as a, um, a major European power with global interests, you know, it’s got this NATO first commitment and it’s still got a pretty strong nuclear deterrent, P5, P5 power. Um, it’s, uh, got this global intelligence network that it’s part of through, through Five Eyes, um, the Five Eyes, uh, intelligence agreement.

William: But if you look further afield, it is one of the few European countries that does have the, the. The influence, reach, and interest in different parts of the world, you know, you’d think let’s just focus on the Indo Pacific, for example, you know, it’s got economic and diplomatic interests there. It’s a dialogue partner of ASEAN.

William: Um, it’s got military basing still in the region, in Oman and in Singapore. Um, and it contributes to regional security through things like the five power defense arrangements with, you know, Singapore, uh, Malaysia, Australia, and New Zealand. Strong bilateral relationships, which have improved over the last few, uh, over the last decade with Australia and Japan.

William: And of course, you’ve got these new defense packs that have come out over the last few years. Particularly, you’ve got AUKUS with the U. S., And Australia, which is, you know, not only about building nuclear powered submarines, that’s the sort of first part of it for, uh, the Australians and British utilizing us technology, um, and enhancing deterrence in the Pacific.

William: But it’s also about trying to sort of second pillar of that is by building it, melding the defense industrial basis of these three like minded. States together so that you’re not all, um, uh, uh, investing inefficiently. And then the final thing as well as this new program called GCAP, the global combat air program, which is a UK, Italian, and Japanese, uh, project to develop the next generation fighter jet.

William: So. sort of taken together. Um, you know, of course, the UK is not the power it once was, but it’s still a, uh, a major European power with these interests around the globe, um, which in many ways have just have grown over the last few years. So, um, yeah, that’s probably how I’d describe it.

Jeremi: I think that makes a lot of sense.

Jeremi: And, and of course, uh, if you think about military capabilities, which you’ve referred to in an area you study closely, uh, there are a few other countries in the world that can match, uh, British, uh, military capabilities, if we’re talking about sea power, as you’ve said, if we’re talking about nuclear capabilities.

Jeremi: So it certainly is in a class that separates it from most other powers with the exceptions, of course, of the United States, China, and perhaps Perhaps Russia, uh, Zachary, I wanted to turn to you as, as we close here, um, as someone who thinks a lot about international affairs, who thinks about, uh, the U S relationship with Europe.

Jeremi: You’ve spent part of this summer in Europe, of course, uh, how large does the UK loom for your generation and thinking about the future of democracy, the future of U S relations with the EU? With other countries, um, how much do you see, uh, what William has described so well, this, this shift in governance in Great Britain, which, which is not necessarily a shift in foreign policy, by the way.

Jeremi: How do you, how do you see that, uh, in relation to the larger set of issues about democracy that your generation is struggling with?

Zachary: It’s a very good question. I think, uh, Britain still looms very large, uh, in the American imagination, if only because. It is a country that we understand more intimately than most other countries in Europe, simply because of the shared language that we have, and a sort of shared cultural sphere in many ways.

Zachary: I think Americans, consciously or not, are very familiar with a lot of aspects of British culture from television, from social media. And I think that Americans do still think Great Britain as sort of having a special relationship, uh, to the United States. Um, whether they think seriously about British politics is a very different question.

Zachary: Um, but I think, uh, for a lot of young people, uh, British politics offer a sort of very, a very different, uh, system, a very different democratic system, uh, to look at and, and learn from. And I, I think it will continue to play that role, uh, moving forward. And I think it’s important to recognize. Uh, even as, uh, a lot of, uh, the interests of both countries seem to lie in different parts of the world, that our histories and our politics are still intertwined in a very particular way.

Jeremi: Well, and your sonnet, Zachary, certainly made reference to the fact that these two countries, the Anglo American sphere, as Winston Churchill referred to it, right, that we struggle with similar, as you call it, problems of mediocre rule, but also that there’s, there’s a possibility for change, right? That these are systems that are adapting, and that, that also seems seems a connection.

Jeremi: Would you agree?

Zachary: I would agree. I think there’s a degree to which both of these systems, some of the longest lasting democratic political systems in the world, have lasted so long because they are adaptable, not because they’re somehow perfect or ingenious. Uh, and, and certainly the last, uh, the last, uh, 10, 10 years or so of political rule in both countries, and certainly that’s not the case.

Zachary: Uh, But because they’re so adaptable, and I think that might be the real lesson of this election, that sort of in our country, too, uh, broad sort of realigning change is possible.

Jeremi: Yes. Yes. William, I think we’ll close on that. My, my final question for you, uh, which really builds on Zachary’s excellent answer.

Jeremi: Are you optimistic about the possibilities for renewal and adaptation? Yeah. In the Anglo American world, or are you concerned or how do you think about this?

William: Well, I think, you know, there are a number of headwinds going against it, right? Um, and we can be pessimistic, but I’m a, I’m a glass half full sort of, sort of guy.

William: I think, you know, there are a number of fundamentals which the UK, the US, the Western alliance more broadly have in their favor. Um, which we often tend to downplay and actually, um, you know, it’s good to end on, on, on that sort of upbeat note, I think. So yeah, it, there are definitely challenges and it’s worth being that kind of critical friend that points out those, those difficulties, but it’s also worth remembering, um, the positives as well.

Jeremi: Yes. Very well said. Um, I think, uh, Dr. William James, you’ve given us really a, a thoughtful and learned overview of some of the key aspects of, uh, British politics and British policy as they relate to the United States, to Europe, to China, and so many of the issues that we struggle with today as we think about the future of democracy on a global scale.

Jeremi: Uh, Dr. William James, thank you for joining us today. Thank you both. It’s been a pleasure. Zachary, thank you, as always, for your moving poem, a sonnet, this week. And thank you most of all to our loyal readers of our Substack and our loyal listeners, uh, to this episode of This is Democracy.

Zachary: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio.

Outro: And the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Jerez Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find This Is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.