This is Democracy – Episode 261: Political Disillusionment

[00:00:00] Intro: This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you, a podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:23] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy.

This week we’re going to discuss a topic that many have suggested to us in the last few days and weeks, which is the problem, maybe even the illness of political disillusionment, cynicism, even despair in our society. So many of my students, so many of my colleagues, so many people I meet in all walks of life tell me that they’re not hopeful for the future.

That they feel we’re stuck as a society, and if anything, they have premonitions of things getting worse. And it doesn’t seem to matter what their politics are, whether they’re on the left or the right. It seems to be a common attitude, uh, and obviously, it’s not fun. And we today are going to talk about what we can do about that.

So, we’re going to talk about this. Where does this come from? And what does research in psychology, what does wisdom in the social sciences tell us about how we can deal with, uh, this problem, this illness in our society? We’re joined by a good friend, and I think the leading scholar, or certainly one of the leading scholars writing about these issues.

This is my colleague, Professor Art Markman. Art, thanks for joining us. Oh, it’s so great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Well, thanks for taking the time and sharing your wisdom. Art, as many of you know, I’m sure, is the Annabelle Arian Worsham Centennial. He’s a Centennial Professor of Psychology and Marketing at the University of Texas at Austin.

He’s also a Vice Provost for Academic Affairs at the University of Texas. I don’t know why he has that punishment, but he took it on for some reason or another. And does a fantastic job, by the way. He’s published more than 150 scholarly works. I, I think that number’s outdated. It’s probably above 200 now.

He writes on cognitive science, which is, I think, where he started. His research has moved into decision making, organizational behavior, and is actually one of my favorite writers on leadership. as well. He’s written a number of books. Uh, the three that were on my bookshelf this morning that I made note of to share with all of you, smart thinking, smart change, and bring your brain to work and bring your brain to work, I have to say, is a really thoughtful book, but also very funny.

And I think humor is an important part of thinking about our lives and thinking about how we lead and bring people together. Art might be most famous, uh, for co hosting what is a really terrific radio show and podcast on KUT Public Radio here in Austin, and I’m sure it’s syndicated widely. It’s with our colleague Dr.

Bob Duke, and this is called Two Guys on Your Head. And it does some of what we’re doing today. It brings serious thinking about psychology, uh, to Questions of everyday life and how we can use that thinking in a serious and rigorous way to improve our lives and improve the environments that we’re in. So we’re really fortunate to have Art with us today.

Before we turn to our discussion with Art, of course, we have our scene setting poem from Mr. Zachary Suri. Zachary, what’s the title of your poem today? A Pessimist’s Apocalypse.

[00:03:13] Zachary: Let’s hear it. At times it seems that all is lost, the end no longer worth the cost, or that the world will die at once, or in a few days, as is told, of cancer or the common cold.

At times it seems I cannot see how much the hatred tires me, dunce, who hates still just for hating’s sake, who is afraid what love. might break. At times it seems we cannot be a people or a nation free. A battle with a hundred fronts. We take up arms because we must. We lie because we cannot trust. I want to know when all is done.

If we can trust a rising sun. Or if in morning breaking stunts, the dawn will break in even halves and wash away the best laid plans.

[00:04:09] Jeremi: Zachary, that’s a very moving poem. Um, tell us about how you, you channeled that sense of disillusionment and, and concern and anxiety, even apocalypse, which is in your title.

How did you do that?

[00:04:20] Zachary: Well, what I was trying to capture was the, um, the feeling of, uh, not just disillusionment, but real hopelessness, the sense that, like, that, that there, that, that, um, There is a sort of unifying message or a unifying, um, vision, goal missing from our lives, um, and the sense of loneliness, and I think what I was most trying to capture was the ways in which each of us at times in our lives, uh, catches a glimpse of this, um, bigger picture and can sense our loneliness, our dissatisfaction with the world as it is, um, and with our, uh, conception of the world, but how, um, Difficult it is still to break out from that, to trust a rising sun and to believe that maybe there is actually another answer and something can be done.

[00:05:11] Jeremi: It’s very thoughtful and moving. Art, is that an accurate mapping of the world as you see it today?

[00:05:17] Art: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s, there’s several intersecting themes and I thought they, many of, many of them were brought out in the, in the poem. So I think it’s a really apt way for us to begin. I think one of the, one, one core concept in psychology that plays a role here is the concept of agency.

You know, we are, we are creatures of action and, but in order to act, you, you have to have a combination of dissatisfaction. and a belief that you can affect the world. I sometimes call that the bridgeable gap. So, so there’s a gap mentally between where you are right now and where you’d like to be. But it’s bridgeable, meaning that you believe that through some combination of your actions and your collaboration with other people, that you can bring about a world in which you have achieved whatever goal led to that gap.

And I think that, you know, When you have agency, you believe that your actions can have that influence, and to the extent that you come to believe that you have no agency, that your actions will matter not at all, you, you become hopeless, uh, and, and at that point, you are demotivated. To act and and one of two results happens from that either you continue to have the energy that was created by the gap, but you have no outlet for that energy.

And if you think about a physics analogy, we talk about energy without direction is heat. Right. And, and that comes across as psychological heat. We get angry. We get frustrated. And so for a while, you can see anger and frustration, but eventually what you see is people just eliminating the gap altogether and saying, because there’s nothing I can do about this, this is no longer going to be a goal of mine.

And that’s what creates disengagement and ultimately that feeling of hopelessness.

[00:07:12] Jeremi: And is that what psychologists call learned helplessness?

[00:07:15] Art: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, this idea of learned helplessness, which it’s fascinating that Marty Seligman, who is was also one of the founders of a field called positive psychology, started his career by studying this concept of learned helplessness, where you would create situations Early on in, in research with animals, but later on also with people, um, where you would create a situation in which there was inescapable punishment, inescapable, uh, problems and, and, and eventually you just lie down and take it because what else are you going to do?

[00:07:53] Jeremi: Yeah. And. Have we fallen into that as a society? Is that some of what you’re seeing?

[00:07:58] Art: I, I, I fear that there are segments where people have really fallen into that completely and others who don’t know, who are close to it. And, and part of the problem is when you look at our public discourse, not only does it feel like my actions can’t play a role, at some point I think there’s a number of people who’ve come to believe that The, the problems that, that we’re talking about aren’t even ones that anyone believes in or, or are the ones that anyone actually cares about.

There’s a, this notion of cynicism is a reflection of a belief that we’re not really playing the game that everybody says we’re playing. And so when you, when you listen to a politician, give a speech about something and you think to yourself, This person doesn’t actually believe that they don’t even believe that this is the real problem.

They’re saying this for some other reason, but nobody’s willing to actually call that out and really get to the root of the problem. Well, that creates cynicism because now you’re forced to have a discourse about something that you don’t believe in. You don’t believe they believe in it. And none of it is actually going to help to address whatever the underlying problem is that people are discussing.

And at that point, why are we playing this game?

[00:09:28] Jeremi: I have to admit, I sometimes feel that way, like it’s a dance of the absurd. Yeah. Like we’re arguing over something and what we’re arguing over is actually not the issue nor what is going to affect the outcome. Yeah. And it just seems like a waste of time.

Yeah.

[00:09:40] Art: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and because even if you were to settle that issue, right, it doesn’t actually solve what the underlying problem is. Exactly.

[00:09:49] Zachary: Zachary. So, Mervyn, do you think that this phenomenon is uniquely widespread in our day and age? If yes, Why?

[00:10:00] Art: Uh, I think it is widespread in our day and age.

I mean, I think, I think there’s a pendulum that swings throughout history, and I’ll, I’ll leave that, I’ll leave more discussions of that to the historian in the room who’s better suited. But, but I think, for example, you know, Jeremy’s book, uh, A Civil War by Other Means, is, Catalogues another era of history in which, uh, in which there was a similar, uh, feeling in the country.

Right. And, and I think one of the reasons that that book resonates so much with people reading it today is because of those kinds of parallels. Um, If I can play amateur historian, that’s great

[00:10:40] Jeremi: as long as you’re saying good things about my book, you can, of course, but

[00:10:44] Art: so, but that said, I think you’ve, you’ve absolutely characterized that this is, this is really pervasive.

And I think as, as Jeremy said in the open, this is true on the, on the political right and the left, uh, and the center. Yes. I don’t, I don’t think that there’s anyone right now who really feels good about the political environment that we’re in. And, and. That, that makes it very difficult to see the right way out of it.

In fact, I would argue that that part of the way out of this. If, if we’re going to get out of this in a successful way is going to require a leader and likely a charismatic leader who is willing to call out the charade and, and be willing to try to address the difficult issues head on. And to try to build a consensus that likely draws on people who currently identify themselves as both right and left in a way that says, look, we may disagree fundamentally on the means for solving these difficult problems, but there’s a group of us who agree on what the problems actually are, and we are going to try to take over the discourse and, and remove the artifice.

In a way that provides a path forward for those of us who’d actually like to readdress the underlying issues

[00:12:21] Jeremi: and art. You’ve hit on exactly what is in some ways the inspiration for 260 plus episodes, which is the way Franklin Roosevelt did that for a country in true despair on a much deeper scale than we can imagine today in 1932 1933 and subsequent years.

And of course, it took time. It didn’t change overnight. What does psychology tell us about how a leader like that can do that in an environment like this? I mean, we know FDR did it, but it’s very hard to explain why and how, except saying he was FDR.

[00:12:53] Art: Well, I mean, I think that, that when people are in despair, one of the problems is they, they feel like they are not being heard.

So, it’s not just that they need a leader who’s going to say the right things. They need a leader who they, they believe understands them and where they are. And this is true on a one on one basis as well. When you think about, about, for example, my clinical psychology colleagues who are trying to treat people who are in despair, one of the first steps is to establish that rapport and that trust that allows the person in despair to feel like they’re being heard.

Right. And, and on a grand scale, you need a leader who will speak a language that will provide a sense that there’s a real understanding of what you’re going through. And if you think about, you know, the fireside chat, exactly, that was a way of stepping into individual people’s homes and saying, I understand where you are and what you’re going through, and I really am here to help.

Right,

[00:14:00] Jeremi: right. One of the striking things about the Fireside Chats, we’ve talked about this before in the podcast, is that FDR does not offer solutions. Right. He actually explains the problem and makes people feel like they’re on the same page, and then says, now work with me. Yeah. Here are some things we’re trying to do.

In addition to waiting and hoping and praying for an FDR figure, what is it that we as citizens can do, especially those of us who are educated and privileged in different ways? What can we do to make that moment more possible, to move in that direction rather than sinking deeper into what seems like a sort of vicious cycle of despair, false hope, et cetera?

[00:14:39] Art: Well, I think one of the most important things we can do is, is to start calling out the roots. of this cynicism and despair. I think the more that in in in discussions not just On podcasts, but also in more public forums.

[00:14:56] Jeremi: Yes

[00:14:56] Art: to really begin to say, you know what we As a as a as a collective have to begin to talk about the real issues, right?

It is okay to disagree In fact, we, we need that disagreement at the point where we return to talking about the very difficult problems that face the world that face this country, there are still legitimate disagreements about how to go about solving those problems. Of course. We have to. Be willing to say, you know what?

I’m not going to talk about those things that don’t matter. I’m going to keep bringing the conversation back to the things that are affecting daily life. And, and I actually think that the way out of this for most of us who are not going to be involved on the national stage is going to be to get involved in local politics.

Uh, and, and because as, as you all, as you well know, that is where. Problems have to get solved. Yes, and uh, you know it we we talk in lofty ways at the national level And and certainly there are many things that our federal government has to do that. No Local government can ever do of course and no state government can ever do but the fact is that that Most of what affects what’s going to happen to us on a daily basis involves the roads we’re going to drive on on our way to work, the schools our children are going to go to, the hospitals that we’re going to go to when we’re sick, all of those things that are bound up with our public life in various ways.

And, and that’s a place where we can re kindle our sense that there are people who work together and who solve problems and who are willing to try to take seriously how to be helpful, not just to me as an individual, but to my community more broadly at a time like this, that’s That’s important because you can find people who really actually are talking about problems when they talk about a problem.

It really is the exactly.

[00:17:07] Jeremi: No, I think you’re right. And if I could use a sports metaphor that Zachary will not like, I think part of what you’re saying is instead of trying to hit three pointers to fundamentally change everything that’s wrong in society, find some layups, find some small shots you can take that will actually affect people’s lives.

Is that is that a fair way of thinking? That’s right.

[00:17:25] Art: You know, some good passing, some sound defense, and, and, and, and a couple of backdoor cuts might just do it. Yeah, a good, uh,

[00:17:32] Zachary: fundamentals. Yeah. Zachary? How do you deal with the, um, the seemingly perennial problem that, that even those people who are most directly benefited by these layups, these policy layups and, uh, policy fundamentals, uh, often are the ones who are the most unwilling to see how those policies benefit, uh, their lives.

Um, I think probably the most obvious example of this is the perception, uh, among many Americans of the economy today. Is doing very poorly when statistically it’s doing quite well compared to historical data. How do we reconcile the sort of dissonance between the reality and the way people perceive their lives?

[00:18:17] Art: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a lot of people, it, it, it, the analogy here is between climate and the weather in some ways, right? So, so, uh, you know, I, I think, I think on a cold day, you know, you think, well, Global warming couldn’t be that bad. It’s chilly today. And, and I think that the economy is similarly difficult to experience as an individual.

But what I have is my own sense of how I’m doing right now. And, and I think that there are a lot of people who feel For whatever set of reasons bleak about the future and it, it could be because they are seeing, um, housing prices rise and feel like their children aren’t necessarily going to be able to afford a house when they were able to afford one when they were younger.

Uh, they see technology making jobs more difficult to keep up with. So they may have a job today, but wonder is generative AI going to put me out of a job. Uh, what is it going to do for the future? And so there, there’s a, there’s a sense of, of foreboding that is creeping into the way that people are thinking about the future and they are conflating that with the economy.

It’s, it’s not that, it’s not that their life today is bad. They, they, most of those people would admit, yes, I can go to the store, I can buy groceries, I can put gas in my car, uh, I can make the repairs I need to make on my home, but I am not hopeful about the future. And, and, and I believe that that lack of hope is coming from a source that, um, a particular party is speaking to.

And. And, uh, you know, I, it, and I think we have to begin to try to talk about, well, what, what are some of the factors that are leading to that? We are, we are seeing societal shifts in, um, in, in who is likely to have power in the future. Uh, we are seeing societal shifts in, um, in, in, What is going to determine success in the future in which, um, certain, certain levels of education may be ascendant in, in, in, in being able to create the sort of flexibility you need to stay a half step in front of the technology and if you feel like your, your own.

Life path and the life path that your family has taken is one that isn’t going to be benefited by that then regardless of where You feel like you are today the economy becomes a stand in for all of those concerns and other In many ways, I, I, you know, I, I wish we could start to talk about those issues and, and really to say, well, okay, what, what is the path forward for that, so that we can do the best job we can of ensuring that everyone does have a reasonable chance in the future to, um, to live the kind of life that, that we’ve associated with the American dream, right?

Uh, you know, I, I, look, I, I remember You know, 35, 40 years ago, being concerned that, that I wouldn’t be able to, uh, to, to have the, the kind of home and, and, and, and, and living arrangements that my parents had, um, I was fortunate things have worked out fine, but I completely understand that same level of, you know, of concern now, um, I, and I do think that, that, that the economy around things like homes has, has changed drastically over the last 20 years in ways that lead me to understand how people could be feeling that.

[00:22:22] Jeremi: Yes, what you’ve described so well, Art, is what the historian Richard Hofstadter in the 1960s wrote about with regard to McCarthyism. And what he, what he saw, and this is just another way of saying what you’ve said, is that people coming out of World War II who were accustomed to their families being on top, they were still living better than they had before World War II, but their family wasn’t on top anymore.

A new family had moved into the neighborhood, someone educated in a different way. And they felt, wow, look at these Jews who have come into my Catholic neighborhood where the Catholics were the dominant group and the wealthiest and all of a sudden the Jews are getting wealthier faster than us. They’re getting educated faster than us.

And they became angry about that. And Hofstadter called that status anxiety. It’s not that your objective conditions have gotten worse, but it’s that your order in the pecking order has changed, right? It’s What do we do about that? Because what he’s identifying is how hard it is for people who see themselves on the top to no longer be on the top, right?

How do we help people to adjust and accept that? I think that’s what we’re talking about here, isn’t it?

[00:23:28] Art: Yeah, I, I think it absolutely is, and, and I think that it’s difficult, and, and I think it starts with getting it out in the open and talking about it, right, and, and being willing to talk about that, because then you can begin to ask the questions, what are the steps that I can take to actually create the future that I’d like to create.

I mean, I, I, I believe that we still live in a nation in which we do reward work.

[00:24:00] Jeremi: Yes.

[00:24:01] Art: And we do reward, uh, people who take initiative to, um, to learn things that they need to learn for the future. We, we reward entrepreneurs, we reward innovators, and, uh, And, but that requires, that requires first characterizing what is it that, that I’m, that I’m concerned about and then what are the steps that need to be taken, uh, to get, to, to get out of this, but then at the same time to then create a dialogue with government to say, what are the barriers?

That might prevent someone from taking the steps that they want to take and historically when government functions well, one of the things that it does is to remove barriers for people who want to do that work and want to be the innovators and want to be the entrepreneurs. And if the barriers have shifted.

Over the last 50 years. Maybe we need to adjust programs in ways that address 21st century barriers, but we can’t begin to do that unless we actually try to identify what the barriers actually are. Because I believe what we’ve done right now is to erect a series of proxy barriers that are easy for people to believe in but aren’t necessarily, in fact probably aren’t, the actual barriers.

And so I think the, and this gets back to this issue of cynicism. Because if we place particular ethnic groups or if we place, you know, Particular policies, uh, in, in, in the, in the crosshairs and say, those are the reason for the problem when in fact they’re not, then we expend a lot of effort in the short term, people may feel good about.

about pulling down a sacred cow. But in the long run, it doesn’t actually solve the problem. And I think deep down, a lot of us know that these aren’t, this isn’t gonna actually solve the problem that people are concerned about. And, and that, at that point, there’s only two ways out, right? One is, is to, is to really, you know, have this sort of revolution in which people return talking about what the real problems are and the other is revolution of the other sort where we tear the government down and say they simply can’t solve problems.

And that is certainly not the direction we want to go. No, that could make

[00:26:42] Jeremi: things far worse. In fact, the historical record often shows that revolutions harm the revolutionaries. Most of all, uh, one of the things, uh, one of the many things I revere about you as a friend and colleague art is like me and maybe even more so than me.

You’re an optimist. And even though both of us are living through, as all of our listeners are, a difficult moment in our society, uh, where there are lots of barriers and lots of displaced arguments around the world. about the wrong issues and anger and hate and all of these things, and you confront this in your job as well as in your political outlook.

You always remain optimistic, and I think everything I see you doing is always about finding those layups, even if it’s very, very local. I’ve seen you do this even if it’s just on campus and you can’t move beyond that, right? How do you maintain that? Because what we like for our listeners is for them to see what we’re talking about sometimes in highfalutin ways as something they can use in their own lives.

How can they find optimism, even if they’re in a situation they don’t control and circumstances which put barriers and other things in front of them that would otherwise lead to cynicism? What can they do to maintain the Art Markman productive optimism?

[00:27:56] Art: Yeah, I think there are, there are two things. I mean, one is.

Is to is to really look around and recognize there are a lot of good people out there You know, I they’re not always the ones on the front page of the newspaper But newspapers don’t sell by telling stories about about good people Uh, that doesn’t mean they’re not there. And I think I think when you look around your community, you will actually find Wonderful people doing things to be helpful and and and that’s useful.

It’s it’s useful to remember that that that If you are also someone who wants to be helpful to your community, you’re not alone in that. But I think the other thing is to really look around. And ask yourself what is a thing that I could do in my sphere of influence and my sphere of influence could potentially be One or two people that makes my world a better place Maybe it’s having a conversation with some friends about Things that that you believe just to try to get your views out there Maybe it’s working, you know volunteering in a local organization Maybe there’s something you could do for the with the company that you work with to To improve the lives of some people.

I’m fortunate to be in an administrative role at the university and, and, and the academic affairs team. You can, you might wonder what is a vice provost for academic affairs do? And one of the things that we do is to think about how do we improve the teaching and learning environment at a university that has over 50, 000 students and, and, and, and, and, and Everything that we can do to make it a little bit easier for faculty to teach, uh, better and, and reach more people, everything we do to make the student experience a little bit better, is something that, that gives us another step towards success.

Trying to improve the lives of, of all of our students and, and in fact, what’s fascinating for me is the more that you do to improve the environment, it has a disproportionate impact on the least resilient students and, and, and at a time when we. As a nation are dismantling some of the safety nets for our least resilient people, recognizing that, that building better environments helps those people most, it helps everyone, but it’s going to help the people who need it the most.

Uh, to the largest degree. And, and, and so that’s something that, that is an, you know, that sort of action that you can take of just trying to help make your environment just a little bit more forgiving. You know, it’s the analogy I use a lot with this sort of thing is, you know, if you’re driving an F1 car and I’ve had a chance to ride my bicycle on the F1 track here, that road is pristine.

Yeah, and it has to be, of course, because you’re taking a car and driving it to its maximum capacity. If that road had any imperfection, it’s any, any imperfections in it, that car would go careening off into the wall. And, and similarly, when you have a low level of resilience as a person, it means you’re basically driving yourself to your maximum capacity.

And if there are bumps in the road, they affect you tremendously. Whereas somebody who is. is living well within their means, is driving like a car doing 25 miles an hour. Even if the road’s a little bumpy and wet, you’re going to be fine. So when you smooth out the road, you are, you are helping those people who are living right at the edge of what they’re able to do much more than the people who are living within their capacity, even though you benefit everybody.

[00:31:47] Jeremi: That’s a great analogy and it works so well and it helps us to visualize this. Um, and you don’t ever feel like you’re rearranging, to use another analogy, rearranging, uh, chairs on the Titanic?

[00:31:59] Art: Um, personally, I try to avoid those projects that, that feel much more like rearranging deck chairs. And, and I think it gets back actually to fundamentally what we’ve been talking about today, which is, I think all of us know when we are addressing something that isn’t really a problem.

Um, I have been fortunate enough in my professional life to be able to opt out of the discussions that relate to the things that feel like they’re not about what they seem to be about and, and to be able to focus more on problems that, um, that will help people to do what they do better. Um, I recognize that, that not everyone.

has that luxury in their jobs and, and certainly I think people, um, in, in loftier places at, at the university than I am, um, are more constrained in which issues they are forced to address by virtue of their position.

[00:33:02] Jeremi: Of

[00:33:02] Art: course.

[00:33:03] Jeremi: Of course. Zachary, how does this sound to you? Do you think what Arts describes so eloquently and vividly that it addresses some of the cynicism and disillusionment that I know you struggle with, as I’m sure my students do, and so many of our younger listeners and older listeners do?

Does this work for you? I think so.

[00:33:21] Zachary: I think it, it is unfortunately, um, an issue that maybe is even starker among young people, this sort of cynicism about politics, especially because as young people, it’s very easy to feel powerless, um, when it comes to policy issues that often seem decided well above our heads.

So I love this idea of sort of focusing on the, Political engagement that one can do in one’s own community, and the policy work that can impact your lives and the lives of your neighbors directly. Um, I think that that is a sort of perfect remedy for this cynicism among young people to see how politics at a very hyper local level can impact those around them.

And themselves in concrete ways,

[00:34:04] Jeremi: I was thinking Zachary about the work you’ve been doing and many fellow students in New Haven to try to deal with obviously the volatile discussions around Israel and Hamas. You’ve been very involved in local activities. Has that been fulfilling? I know you don’t feel like you’re changing policy for the US or for Israel or for Palestinian representatives, but has it, has it provided you that fulfilling sense that you’re at least making some difference at the local level?

[00:34:34] Zachary: Um, I don’t know if it’s provided a fulfilling sense, but I think what does feel fulfilling is when one can have real conversations with people one on one in a space that allows for empathy and for a real discussion, as opposed to sort of like a sort of constant protest or polemic. Um, and I think that’s the sort of maybe hyper local lesson.

It’s you, if you have like a meal with someone and you sit across from them and you have to sort of share your perspective in a real, very human way. Then that can make a much bigger difference and feel much more productive than sort of competing protests, right?

[00:35:11] Jeremi: Right. That makes a lot of sense.

[00:35:12] Art: And I just want to capture exactly one thing in the, in, in what you were saying that I think is really important, which is, you know, another aspect of being hyperlocal is having real conversations with real people in small groups.

And I think we actually talked about this the last time I was on this. Podcast. But one of the things about talking with someone else is that for a brief moment in that conversation, even if you believe you completely disagree with them in order to converse, you have to think about the world the way they’re thinking about the world so that you can attach the next thing you say to what they were talking about in a way that’s meaningful.

And as a result, people who talk together. Leave the conversation thinking about the world more similarly, even if they continue to believe that they disagree. And, and that, that function of conversation is incredibly important because we aren’t talking to each other these days. And, you know, we, we often Try to debate each other on social media and debates are not conversations between people.

They are signals to the partisan, uh, who are watching the debate. And, and what we need to do is to strip the audience away. And have those one on one conversations, and to do that a lot, and to do it most with the people that we agree with least.

[00:36:39] Jeremi: Yeah, and one of the problems with debates, and I say this as a former debater, is that there’s a winner and a loser.

And you’re trying to win, you’re not actually trying to connect. And what you’re talking about is connecting, not agreeing, but connecting with people are our final question art. And it’s one that I’m often asked by our listeners because our listeners tend to actually be the people who are a little more optimistic and believe they can make a difference.

What do you do when you have a close loved one or a friend or in the case of our daughter roommates who are cynical and you’re trying to take them out of that space?

[00:37:15] Art: You know, sometimes the best way to do it is to go into a space where you have agency. And, and live in that space for a while. And it may be politics adjacent.

It might actually be politics distant, right? So find something around which you think you can make a difference. And it, it, it could be tutoring, if you’re, if you’re students, it might be tutoring a fellow student. Um, it might be. Uh, volunteering at, at, uh, at a food bank, uh, or, or walking dogs at the local shelter doing a thing that is productive, independent of the discussions that are going on as a reminder that your actions can matter to solve a problem, even if it’s not a problem that anybody’s talking about politically and, and to kind of reinforce that, that we as individuals matter.

And. And to use that to, to kind of redevelop a spirit of, of agency that, that will allow you to return to politics at some point and, and engage with it.

[00:38:36] Jeremi: I love it. I love it. You know, one of the central insights from historical scholarship is that agents are made, not created, which is to say we make ourselves agents or we unmake ourselves as agents.

And that’s sort of what you’re saying here, right? And we can’t always make ourselves presidents and kings, but we can make ourselves difference makers in our own environment. We can find a way to do that. And I think you’ve given us the tools and even more important, you’ve given us a framework for thinking about that.

that art. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:39:06] Art: My pleasure. I love these conversations every time and Zachary, always a pleasure to hear your poetry.

[00:39:11] Jeremi: Absolutely. Zachary, thank you. Thank you for your poetry and thank you most of all to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of This Is Democracy.

[00:39:26] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio. And the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find This Is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.