This is Democracy – Episode 260: Indian Elections

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy. A podcast about the people of the United States. A podcast about citizenship. About engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues. And how to have a voice in

[00:00:22] Jeremi: what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy.

This week, we are going to discuss the elections in India, India between the months of April and June will host the largest democratic elections in the history of the world. More people will vote in India than have probably voted ever before. And as India’s importance in the world grows, these elections, of course, loom large over the future of South Asia.

the future of international affairs and the future of global democracy. We are very fortunate to be joined today with, one of the most important and insightful people writing about Indian politics in general and particularly the elections in India. This is Milan Vaishnav. He’s a senior fellow and director of the South Asia program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Milan, thank you for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me. Milan is the author of When Crime Pays, Money and Muscle in Indian Politics, and I’m sure we’re going to talk a lot about money and muscle today. It was awarded a number of awards, including the New India Foundation Book Prize for the Best Nonfiction Book on Contemporary India, published in 2017.

And in addition to his many other writings, I can highly recommend Milan’s, it’s a, it’s not really a competitor to ours. It’s a parallel podcast focused much more on India than we’re able to do week to week. It’s called the Grand Tamasha and it’s co hosted or co produced, with the Carnegie Foundation and the Hindustan Times, which is one of the largest and most read newspapers in India.

Before we turn to our discussion with Milan, we have, of course, our scene setting poem for Mr. Zachary Suri. What’s the title of your poem today, Zachary? I love the title. Let’s hear it. There is

[00:02:12] Zachary: a stirring in the village, neither storm cloud nor a stew. There is a stirring in the village, on the ground amidst the dew.

It is the sound of footsteps falling, of people crying, laughing, leaping. They are walking in a morning mist that seems just like In Angel’s Kiss, they are searching for an answer that only they possess, that only can be answered in this democratic quest. Where does their walking end? When is their journey done?

They do not ask, they do not know. Their sweat, it’s not for show. For in their hearts, it is a creed. One buried sometimes deep within, erupting unexpected in a morning still and thin. It is a voice their feet create, a scream, a shout, a roar. It says we must remember, it says for once, no more. For when the people scream, their voice is heard, obeyed one cannot say, but at least it must be said, it’s always ringing through the head.

For when the people go to vote, they leave their villages and land and find their way to freedom with a thumbprint on their hand.

[00:03:30] Jeremi: Zachary, I love the references to the villages and in particular the thumbprint. what is your poem about? My

[00:03:35] Zachary: poem is about, I think the power of democracy, especially in such a large country, as India.

And how meaningful even the simple action of voting and then having your thumbprint marked, which I believe at least is the sort of historical way that, Indian election officials would make sure people didn’t vote twice. how meaningful that can be, when done collectively and, how important that is not just for the lives of those who do, who do vote.

but for the future of India and the future of the world.

[00:04:08] Jeremi: Yeah, well said, well said. Milan, with all the controversy that we’ll talk a little bit about surrounding the current government and the restrictions on democracy, is Zachary right? Is this still a kind of sacred ritual in India? I think

[00:04:22] Milan: so. it is really, people call it a festival of democracy.

It’s a sort of, spectacle unlike any other. despite what some would say are sort of the country’s flagging commitments to liberal democracy. India’s had a much more robust track record of adhering to the electoral dimensions of democracy. They’re not without their blemishes and flaws, and I’m sure we’ll talk about that.

but, these are some of the most competitive and closely contested, most participatory, democratic elections anywhere in the world.

[00:05:09] Jeremi: It’s extraordinary, and I should recommend, I think it’s a website that you’re part of producing, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace’s website on the Indian elections.

8, 000 plus candidates, 900 plus million eligible voters. It’s extraordinary. Can you walk us through a little bit of how this works, and why it takes almost, a month and a half for the elections to occur? Sure. Yeah. I mean,

[00:05:35] Milan: it’s, it’s, it’s really kind of an amazing production. We are looking at India’s 18th general election.

It will start in a couple of weeks in mid April and conclude the first week of June. that is a 44 day long. process. For those of you keeping count, the country will be divided up into seven different segments with seven different polling days spread out over that 40 plus day period. And in each phase, one geographic segment of the population will vote.

importantly, the votes are only counted at the very end. So we will all be living in this kind of suspended animation until June 4th. this is a gargantuan, enterprise as, as, as your listeners might expect. I mean, we’re talking about, and an eligible voting population of 980. million people, spread out over deserts, oceans, glaciers, under Indian electoral regulation, there must be a voting booth, no more than two kilometers from every habitation that, that is inhabited throughout the country.

and, somewhat, impressively, Every single vote that will be cast will, will be done. So, will be done on an electronic voting machine. so there are no paper ballots in the system. This, this entire process is overseen by one of the world’s most powerful elections agencies at the election commission of India, the ECI.

and while that shop is, is relatively small, when elections are on the ECI. Basically deputize is more than 11 million civil servants to essentially help them conduct elections and the body’s powers are so vast, even the judiciary cannot call into question, decisions that the election commission needs to make.

Takes, while elections are in the offing,

[00:07:49] Jeremi: it’s extraordinary, the size and complexity that you’ve just described. And I understand it costs more than 8 billion. They’re also the most expensive elections in the world who runs this electoral commission. It does seem to have a certain legitimacy with most Indians.

Where does that come from? It

[00:08:07] Milan: does. I mean, these it is run by, By three election commissioners, there’s a chief election commissioner and two subordinate election commissioners. These are, bureaucrats that are appointed by the executive. over the years, the body has developed a kind of spirit of.

Independence of autonomy of a kind of esprit de corps that allows it to function, in a highly effective way. It’s, it’s, it’s widely viewed as, as one of the most successful kind of branches of the Indian government. It has, independent status under the constitution, as separate and apart from the executive.

In recent years, that independence has been called into question. as I mentioned, it is the executive that appoints the election commissioners. That’s been a subject of some controversy, the Supreme Court. recently intervened to say that there should be a selection committee, comprised of the prime minister, the leader of the political opposition, and the chief justice of the Indian Supreme Court, who should as a collegium decide who those election commissioners are, the government, introduce and pass the law.

which, which created a collegium, but in addition to the prime minister and leader of opposition, they included another cabinet member. So they tilted the playing field towards the executive. and so that’s something which I, I, I believe we’ll, we’ll come under judicial scrutiny in the months and years to come.

we’ve seen particularly since Narendra Modi, the prime minister has come into power and election commission that has been, shall we say a bit more friendly or lenient towards the ruling party. And, we can only speculate as to why that might be the case, but I’d say in the past 10 years, some of that shine, which the election commission had enjoyed has, has worn off a bit.

Zachary, what are

[00:10:17] Zachary: the main issues of this election campaign that are bringing people to the polls despite, as you mentioned, all the sort of geographic, and economic challenges that, that, that they might face?

[00:10:28] Milan: Well, it’s a really good question, Zach, and not a very easy one to answer because this is not really an election where there is a well defined, Central issue or even set of issues.

This is really a referendum on a decade of Narendra Modi’s rule, and his party’s electoral dominance. that’s really what people are, are, are voting for or voting against. You have, one of the most powerful political parties and most popular political leaders in the world. And Narendra Modi, a raid against.

A, coalition of opposition parties, which have banded together, get together under the, the acronym of India, I N D I A, which is, either a clever or a really trite, acronym, depending on your point of view. and that coalition is kind of expressly put together to keep the BJP, out of power.

on the BJP side, they are going to the election on the back of what they believe is an impressive 10 year record of, of, of welfare provision, of sound economic stewardship, of a more robust kind of national security, foreign policy, and approach of a, of a kind of a Hindu first or pro Hindu, track record of, of, of, of legislation and policy.

And on the other side, you have, a group of parties which believes that India’s secular fabric. Has been undone that, that we have a cult of personality, essentially, that’s, that’s, that’s running the country in a highly autocratic in a liberal manner, and an economy that is, despite the kind of, glossy headline numbers, has real, Issues in terms of inequality, wealth distribution, poor human development indicators.

So those are kind of how the two sides are, are, are lining up, but there isn’t really a single motif. That is guiding these elections as there has been say in, in, in years past. Some of your listeners may recall five years ago in 2019, there was a horrific terrorist attack that took place in India just weeks before voting began that prompted, a very short, but very tense armed conflict between India and Pakistan that really thrust national security, on to, the, the front burner as a political issue.

We don’t see anything like that, as of yet, although, over 44 days, a lot could happen. I think

[00:13:19] Jeremi: that’s so well said and it does seem as if this election is really about one person about Prime Minister Modi and whether you, as a voter go along with 10 years of a very Hindu nationalist program or whether you see yourself, Pulling India in a different direction or wanting to see India go in a different direction.

Why are so many observers, both within India and outside of India, concerned about the future of democracy in Prime Minister Modi and the BJP’s hands? Yeah,

[00:13:50] Milan: that’s a really good question and a tough question, I think, to sort of summarize concisely. But let me try to do my best. I think there are three.

Principle concerns that critics have of India’s democratic trajectory. The first is, a rising tide of Hindu majoritarianism. the BJP is a Hindu nationalist party. And what that means is that, they believe that Indian culture. is coterminous or synonymous with Hindu culture. And that in a country where 80 percent of the population is Hindu, Hindus, reserve the right to essentially, be treated as first among equals.

and, minorities and, and people of other faiths are allowed to reside in India, but in a somewhat subordinate. Sort of status. And we can get into sort of what that means. So I think that’s that’s one of the biggest critiques right that you’ve had a country that has managed to delicately balance unprecedented diversity with robust democracy because it’s embraced this idea of secularism and pluralism and critics worry that that may be going by the wayside.

The second is we’ve seen, in, in, and it flows from the first is a growing intolerance for dissent or for narratives, points of view, everything from literature to movies to, to, op eds that contradict official government narratives, right? And the government has used, sort of patriotism and loyalty to the nation as a way of basically calling out these sorts of criticisms.

As, as not anti government or anti Modi or anti BJP, but anti national, and so there’s been a real chilling effect in terms of civil society discourse, the way the media operates, even the way private capital is willing or not. to, to speak up about, government policy. I’d say that’s the second big critique.

And then the third is a feeling that we are entering a system where there’s been an excessive accumulation of power in the hands of the executive, namely in the hands of, of the prime minister’s office and in the prime minister, himself at the expense of, other, branches of government like the legislature or the judiciary.

And so this liberal constitutional order that was the bedrock of, of kind of, India’s, 1950 constitution, which was premised on, independent impartial rule of law. Checks and balances. Separation of powers guaranteed protection from state coercion. Some of these protections or guardrails have been atrophying.

and so I think you, you, you, you take all of those things together and people say, okay, well, on the electoral dimension. Really high turnout, a lot of contestation, the BJP is dominant nationally, but actually the opposition runs half of India’s states, so the health check is okay there, but on the liberal commitments of Indian democracy, the space for democracy between elections, that appears to be shrinking, and I think that’s what’s gotten so many, observers kind of riled up, and I’ll just say as a footnote, there is now A bit more concern around the electoral spotlight, right?

The way elections are funded, the way the election commission is functioning. we’ve seen in recent weeks and months, two sitting chief ministers belonging to opposition parties who have been arrested are in jail on alleged corruption charges, right? So, so, so even on the electoral domain, we’re starting to see a much greater concern than in years past.

And on that

[00:18:03] Jeremi: point, Milind, just to follow up a little bit on these illiberal, elements that people are concerned about, it does seem, and I certainly felt this when I was in India in November, it does seem as if the Indian press is less free around political dissent. Then it was even just a few years ago, and there do seem to be a number of cases where opposition candidates have been jailed or hounded by the law one way or another, including the person who was the leader of the Congress party.

Is that correct?

[00:18:36] Milan: So, I think the way to think about this is that there have been There are many draconian laws on the books, Jeremy, that have given the central government the authority and discretionary power to clamp down on various forms of dissent. That could be dissent coming from civil society, it could be dissent coming from the media, it could be, it could be, contrary narratives emanating from the opposition.

And we have seen previous governments. including Congress governments, abuse and abuse those provisions of law and that arbitrary authority to try and, silence dissent. so the, the tools are not new, by and large. What’s new is the tools. two things. One is the intensification or the deployment of those tools.

So we’ve seen, for instance, a fourfold increase in cases, brought by India’s premier economic crimes unit against politicians since Modi has come to power. And 95 percent of politicians who have cases come from the opposition. Only 5 percent come from the ruling party. and secondly, there is a marriage of kind of illiberal, or questionable laws to a narrowly pitched.

Kind of view of what constitutes an Indian and what constitutes the nation, right? That, that, that is born out of this Hindutva or Hindu nationalist ideology that I think, is different and new from say the excesses of Indira Gandhi during the 1970s. You’ve had, other points in Indian history where you’ve had autocratic or autocratic leaning rulers.

but it’s the intensification and the ideological, orientation, I think, of this government that gives many people pause. Zachary, what makes this

[00:20:39] Zachary: election so important for global politics? How might the result of this election change the course of international relations in the region?

[00:20:50] Milan: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a really good question.

So let me try to break it down into a couple of different constituent pieces. So first and foremost, obviously it’s of great importance to the 1. 4 billion Indian citizens, right? I mean, one out of every. For voters who lives on earth lives in India, right? So this is a big deal for a significant chunk of, of humanity, and I think many people believe that the verdict will shape the kind of political order and democratic nature character of India going forward.

Right? India has been for seven and a half decades, a kind of beacon of democracy. Not just for developing countries, but also really for the developed world, to how do you, how do you balance, diversity, democracy, when you have conditions of poverty, inequality, things like, the, the caste system and so on and so forth.

So, so I think that’s the, where the, the biggest impact will be felt, right? And then there are the second order impacts of, of kind of global politics, right? I think, What we’ve seen with this particular government is a heightened ambition in terms of the role it sees India playing, on, on the global stage, right?

India has long, had a kind of elite consensus around this tradition of non alignment of saying, look, we don’t want to get it. Right. Tie it up into kind of East versus West, North versus South. we want to get along with everybody. and that doctrine is still in play, but there’s been a twist, India now sees an emerging multipolar world in which.

It makes up one of the key polls, right? So it’s not just about let a thousand, voices, bloom. It’s that India deserves to be one of the leading, voices in the world along with China, the United States, European Union, and Russia and others. I do think that, another way in which this matters, clearly is, the extent to which, India is going to be a, a kind of economic engine, for the global economy.

We’ve seen this government make a lot of investments in trying to bill India as a kind of global manufacturing powerhouse for the 21st century. A lot of those promises, have yet to be fulfilled. But I think a third consecutive mandate for this government will give it, some extra impetus to try to push forward with some of its policies and schemes to try and be for many countries.

What we refer to is the kind of China plus one, opportunity. So I think this election is going to have economic ramifications. It’s going to have geopolitical ramifications, and above all, it’s going to have economic ramifications. Local political and democratic ramifications for for the people living in India.

It’s

[00:23:53] Jeremi: extraordinary Milan. Just building on your really insightful comments the American position the US government position on this right because many of the concerns about The illiberal trends that you described so well have been vocalized by American leaders But at the same time president Joe Biden recently gave a statement dinner to Modi in the United States, and there’s clearly been an effort to reach out to India as a potential partner, particularly in future economic and military competition with China.

Do you see a victorious BJP, if that’s what comes out of this election, a victorious Modi government moving closer to the United States?

[00:24:33] Milan: So first of all, I think we are likely to see a victorious BJP. I don’t really think that’s much in doubt. I think the debate today, as Ruchir Sharma pointed out, and, and the lead opinion piece for the Financial Times is the size of Modi’s mandate, not whether or not he’s going to receive a third mandate.

Right? So I think we’re very much now looking at at a narrow set of outcomes relative to previous elections. so that’s the first point. The second point is, as you rightly pointed out, the United States has made a big strategic bet on India. This is a bet that goes back a quarter century. It is a bipartisan bet, both in the U.

S. and in India. and it is a bet that’s made, in some significant degree against the backdrop of growing U. S. China competition and the belief that India can be a bulwark, against a kind of growing Chinese kind of authoritarian, project. The Biden administration, I think, has signed up very much, to this.

It, it, it has not just kind of followed this consensus. I would say it’s even elevated it. It’s found new ways of working with India. Despite the fact that they do have, and had vocalized, including in the days and weeks leading up to this election, a lot of concern about democratic backsliding. However, the administration does not seem.

Willing, much like previous administrations have proved unwilling to really, force, a trade off between kind of values and, and interests, right? now part of that is due to the fact that they are worried about blowback from the Indian side. The Indians are notoriously defensive about their democracy, about perceived foreign hectoring.

They don’t really believe they have a lot of tools in their toolkit to do very much about a country that’s as large and as complicated as India is. So my expectation is that this is going to continue to be a bit of a sore point, but it’s unlikely to rock the boat in such a significant way. That the overall trajectory of us India ties is, is somehow going to be kind of, derailed or, or, or, or rewritten.

I think the only circumstances in which that could happen is if we see a real breakdown in India’s polity, and by which I mean, a conflagration of, of, of religious or ethnic violence, a, a vitiation of a kind of free and fair election. Or if India becomes so consumed by internal matters that it is no longer seen as a, as an effective, sort of bulwark against China.

Right. I don’t think those things are likely in the foreseeable future, but I think those are potential red lines or conditions under which administration might reevaluate its method of operating. That makes a

[00:27:52] Jeremi: lot of sense. And I want to highlight for our listeners how different this is from the U. S.

relationship with India, let’s say, 50 years ago, when you had a President Nixon and a, Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, who certainly did not see themselves as partners, and where the United States, often took the lead. positions, especially in the war between India and Pakistan that were more on the Pakistani side than the Indian side.

Milan, do you see this shift, the strategic shift that you’ve articulated so well, do you see this as a good thing for India?

[00:28:26] Milan: Well, look, I think if you’re looking at this from the perspective of India and India’s interests, it makes a lot of sense. All the sense in the world to try and forge a tighter embrace the United States, because there is the, the, the capital India requires to continue to lift, people out of poverty to give them a better standard of living.

The technology it requires to, To, to achieve transformational change that the defense, manufacturing and know how it needs to, to protect its borders. these are all things where us, assistance and partnership is absolutely vital. We talk a lot about India’s, long held partnership with the Russians and previously with the Soviets when it comes to, the defense relationship.

that relationship is very much intact, although it’s worth pointing out that year on year, the amount of defense material that, that India is importing from Russia has come down significantly into that gap. We’ve seen greater exports from the United States, from the European Union, from places like Israel and so on and so forth.

So, so there has been a real material shift, I think, not just in terms of the rhetoric, but actually in terms of, of facts on the ground. So I think for, for India. there’s no question that the U. S. is, if not, it’s most important bilateral partner, certainly, one of the most. And I think Modi, very much, believes this to his core.

And remember, this is somebody who was denied a U. S. visa in 2005 because of human rights violations that took place in the state of Gujarat when he was the chief minister, when we saw a horrific riots breakout. And more than a thousand people were killed, it wasn’t until 2013, 2014, when it became clear that he was going to be the next prime minister, that, that there was a kind of rapprochement between India and the United States, right?

So, he had a lot of reason. Perhaps to hold this against against the Americans. And he didn’t do that. And I think that’s because he realized that a tighter embrace is what was in the Indian interest. So

[00:31:01] Jeremi: how do you think in this, this, this will be our final question. Melanie, you’ve really taken us on a tour to the horizon to really understand this election and it’s Policy implications, what should or how should, the larger Indian diaspora of which you and Zachary and I are a part?

How should we think about this? Because I think although we have various different views on various issues, I think all of us care about a prosperous India. Those of us who are in the United States would like to see the trends toward closer Indian U. S. cooperation. Titan and deepen, but at the same time, we all care about democracy and we’re worried about democracy in our own country.

We’re worried quite frankly, I think about a leader in India who has the track record in Gujarat that you’ve just articulated of often being on the side and supporting those who undertake horrific, violence towards. Certain communities and violate human rights in ways that are undeniable. How should we think about this?

How should, how should we act in this context?

[00:32:05] Milan: Yeah, it’s a really good and very complex and thorny, set of challenges you point out. Jeremy, and so I, I can’t pretend to have all the answers. Let me just try to kind of lay out a couple of, of ideas or, or cautions, perhaps. I think the first is that we need to make sure, as the U S government, using, using we in the kind of Royal we sense, obviously I’m not a part of the U S government, but the U S government, needs to make sure that it is, taking cognizance of.

issues of democracy and rights in India and validating critiques that come from within India, because I think that’s an important sign for civil society, for media, for, for pro democracy activists who are on the ground, and, and having the U. S. engage with those critiques and, and hear those critiques I think is very important.

so I would say that should be at the top of our agenda. I think number two is we need to be vigilant as members of the diaspora that political divisions and social divisions that are emerging in India, do not seep into our own body politic in the United States or in other places where the democracy rides in large, resides in large numbers.

we are starting to see signs of some of those. animosities creep in to our own political discourse. And I think, that could be very damaging and very divisive. And so I think we need to be very, very vigilant, about that. And I, and I think the third is that, we really need to, to make sure that we are We’re not looking at India in, in, in kind of binary terms, right?

India has long defied, easy classification, right? And I think it’s so easy to say, okay, this is an autocracy. This is a democracy. This is a liberal place. This is an illiberal place. the situation in India is, is deeply complex. It is more democratic in many ways today than it’s ever been before.

If you look at, political contestation, if you look at political participation, if you look at the way in which previously disadvantaged groups have been incorporated, But it’s also highly illiberal in terms of majoritarianism, in terms of intolerance or dissent. it is a much more capable state. If you look at Modi’s track record of welfare delivery, it’s a real track record of performance.

At the same time. The state is simultaneously much more coercive, much more able to, to use its, its, its, its powers, against its, its own people. it is in many ways, a highly attractive partner. To countries like the United States, we see it as a huge market of the future. We see the possibilities for security cooperation in a, in, in the Indo Pacific for two way trade for, for migration, for diaspora and so on and so forth at the same time, it is, it is an increasingly difficult partner to manage if I can use that term, we’ve seen, for instance, the alleged involvement in, Government of India officials in targeted assassination of, of, of, of American and Canadian citizens on, on, on, on their sovereign soil.

Right. So, we need to make sure that we’re, we’re kind of taking in the full complexity and not trying to pigeonhole India into, into simple boxes, because I think, we, we will end up, that will end up taking us into into, into places that, that, that, that may be, off track or, or, or just, not connected to reality.

[00:36:00] Jeremi: That’s so well said. And it reminds me, I think of a comment made by former U. S. Ambassador John Kenneth Galbraith, right? Which was that India fits every category and none of the categories at the same time. And I think you’ve, you’ve described and explained why, Zachary, your thoughts, especially from the perspective of younger members of the Indian American diaspora.

And those who are not members of the Indian diaspora, do you think that this is a country and a set of elections that young people in the United States are first of all interested in and do they see what Millon I think describes, which is a complex evolving relationship where we’re not. Satisfied with many of the things that are happening within India, but yet we see long term mutual interests in the cause of democracy.

[00:36:48] Zachary: Yes, I think so. I mean, I think Americans and particularly young Americans are more familiar with Indian culture, Indian politics, Indian history than ever, ever before. just by virtue of, of growing up as I did, and to a lesser extent as you did, in communities filled with Indian immigrants. and I think that the connections between our two countries, not just economic and political, but also simply, cultural and social will only deepen in the next few years.

And that makes this election and following it closely, I think even more vital for young people and for all Americans.

[00:37:27] Jeremi: But do you think Zachary, as Milan certainly was arguing that although we need to care about human rights and democracy, that we can’t Put India in an authoritarian category and, and, and adopt a more, prohibitive position, in spite of some of this backsliding because of the other interests that we have.

Yes, I think

[00:37:45] Zachary: so. I think that those sort of social, cultural, political, and economic connections are, are, are very much worth saving and preserving and to sort of neatly try to categorize the Indian regime. Or the Indian government into authoritarian or democratic would only be to sort of limit the possibilities for those connections.

[00:38:05] Milan: Well

[00:38:05] Jeremi: said. Well said. And I think this captures a theme, in our podcast week after week, which is that the history of democracy and the future of democracy is much more complicated than a simple set of principles or even. parchment paragraphs that we might write that articulate our principles. The principles matter, but it’s the practice of democracy.

And Milan Vaishnav has really given us a sense of how complex, this process is in what is still the largest democracy in the world. Milan Vaishnav, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s really been

[00:38:38] Milan: a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:38:40] Jeremi: I want to encourage all of our listeners once again to follow, Milan Vaishnav.

you can follow him on Twitter. you can listen to his podcast, Grand Tamasha. You can read his books, including When Crime Pays, Money and Muscle in Indian Politics, and I also highly recommend the Carnegie Endowment’s, webpage on the Indian elections, which has a really nice, succinct overview that captures, in slightly more detail some of the issues that Milan really took us, took us through and described for us.

in a historical context. Zachary, thank you for your, lovely scene setting poem as always, and, most of all, we want to thank our listeners for joining us for this episode of This Is Democracy.

[00:39:31] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio. And the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find This Is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

See you next time.