This is Democracy – Episode 259: Media and Politics

[00:00:00] Intro: This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States,

[00:00:11] Intro: a podcast about

[00:00:11] Intro: citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you, a podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in

[00:00:22] Intro: what happens next.

[00:00:29] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week we are going to talk about the issue that in some ways everyone is talking about. How is the media in the United States covering our current presidential election? It’s still early in the presidential election season. It feels like it’s been going on and on forever already, uh, but it’s important whether we like it or not, how, uh, presidential candidates are covered, how the issues are discussed and how the public is informed or not informed about what’s going on.

[00:00:57] Jeremi: We are fortunate today that we’re, we’re joined [00:01:00] by, uh, an old friend and, uh, someone who’s, uh, been a big part of our show for prior episodes, one of the foremost experts in the world on the media and politics. This is our friend and colleague, Paul Steckler. Paul, uh, nice to have you on. Glad to be here.

[00:01:15] Jeremi: Paul, as many of you know, is a national award winning, widely recognized filmmaker. He’s made a number of major political documentaries. Really, if you think about, uh, filming and politics, you have to think about Paul Steckler. I just want to name a few of his films that I really enjoyed. Uh, there are too many to name, it would take the whole podcast, but the ones that I recommend to our listeners, that you must listen to and watch if you haven’t already.

[00:01:43] Jeremi: George Wallace, Setting the Woods on Fire, I still think that’s Paul’s best work. Last Man Standing, politics Texas style. Vote for Me, politics in America. Two segments of Eyes on the Prize, probably the most famous civil rights documentary. And Last Stand at Little [00:02:00] Bighorn, which is part of the PBS Famous American Experience series.

[00:02:05] Jeremi: Most recently, actually I don’t think it’s most recently, but one of Paul’s other recent documentaries. Is, uh, Postcards from the Great Divide, which was, uh, co sponsored by the Washington Post and PBS Digital. Paul has won two George Foster Peabody Awards, three Alfred DuPont Columbia University Journalism Awards.

[00:02:22] Jeremi: As my mother would have asked, why only two and three awards? Why not more,

[00:02:28] Paul: Paul? You know, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to say. What I was going to say is that all these films are available for free online at, uh, www. paulstekler.com. Steklerwithoutacide. com Excellent.

[00:02:40] Jeremi: You’re going to have a great weekend. We will put that link in, in, uh, this episode’s, uh, liner notes.

[00:02:46] Jeremi: And I hope people will, will go and watch these films. They’re well worth watching. I just wanted to mention also that Paul has three National Emmy Awards and a special jury prize from the Sundance Auditorium. film festival. So uh, this [00:03:00] is a man who comes very well qualified to talk about the media and politics.

[00:03:05] Jeremi: And before we get into our conversation with Paul, of course, we have a Mr. Zachary Seery’s scene setting poem. Zachary, what’s the title of your poem today? An appeal for clarity. An appeal for clarity. Let’s hear it. It’s

[00:03:19] Zachary: clear to me as clear can ever be, As clear as day or as a drop of dew, As clear as falling rain that falls on you, How empty is our precious liberty, How vast what we must cross a troubled sea, Each man content to sit and eat his stew, To fill his pot with luck and shine his shoes, And proudly say he is alive and free.

[00:03:45] Zachary: When in the cold men wait without their coat, when underground a child hides in fear, is drowning in the sea a drowning boat? When with your eyes you see in theirs a tear, how do you still not know [00:04:00] how you must vote? How do you still not feel what you can hear?

[00:04:05] Jeremi: Well done, Zachary. I like how it builds to that final line.

[00:04:08] Jeremi: What is your poem about? Um,

[00:04:10] Zachary: my poem is about the stakes of this election. And the way in which it seems to be like every election, I assume, but I think particularly in this moment to really put in question some of our deepest values as a country and some of our most fundamental institutions. Um, and I think, uh, these questions are sometimes obscured in the way that we are, we talk about politics, uh, as a sort of day to day process as it always is, but we can sometimes lose sight of the stakes.

[00:04:41] Zachary: Um, and that’s one of my concerns going into this, uh, what, what promises to be, And only increasingly crazy election cycle.

[00:04:50] Jeremi: Yes, yes. Paul, is, is Zachary right? Is, does the game of politics distract us from the bigger issues?

[00:04:56] Paul: Oh, I don’t know. You know, the media is always, uh, you know, [00:05:00] focused on the horse race.

[00:05:01] Paul: Um, and, um, you know, the problem for a larger audience is that, um, You know, a lot of times, if you go from the horse race, you know, to the specifics of issues, that’s a level of complexity that, uh, that many people are just not that interested in. You know, in a, uh, in a presidential year, many more people vote than vote in local elections or in off year elections.

[00:05:25] Paul: And a lot of those folks, you know, that vote, um, are lower information voters. You know, and so that, uh, there’s much more tribalism, you know, who’s a Democrat, who’s a Republican, who’s a conservative, who’s a liberal, uh, do you like the person, do you not like the person, you know, is, uh, is there a tipping point already so that Biden can’t reach people, you know, is, um, you know, Trump reached his high level, uh, you know, until the Democrats You know, start having lots of commercials about, uh, reminding people about what his presidency was like and the [00:06:00] comments he makes, who knows, but it’s, um, you know, for most people it’s a horse race, so.

[00:06:04] Paul: And, and

[00:06:05] Jeremi: what do you think the appropriate role, not the actual role, but the appropriate role for political reporting is? What, what should political reporters for CNN, Fox News, what should they be

[00:06:16] Paul: doing? Well, that’d be kind of pretentious for me to, to, you know, give the, the, the high view of what they should be doing.

[00:06:22] Paul: I mean, uh, you know, journalists, um, have a challenge, you know, especially, um, in the era of Donald Trump, where most, you know, much of the stuff that he says isn’t true. Right. You know, you could have a continual, you know, sort of like, you know, line underneath him and cable. And say, this is not true, this is not true, this is not true.

[00:06:43] Paul: Understand that a lot of people just don’t care. They won’t, won’t believe you. It’s um, you know, there, there was an interesting analysis I was listening to where, if you remember back in 2016 during the presidential election, um, you know, Trump’s press, Trump’s, [00:07:00] uh, rallies were like catnip, you know, for the media.

[00:07:03] Paul: They got gigantic audiences. I’d never seen anything like them. They were kind of insane. It was kind of like non sect litter after non sect litter, but it was very bizarrely entertaining. Right, right. And, um, they just gave him unbelievable amounts of free media. Now, he was also helped by the fact that Hillary Clinton’s campaign, perhaps, was not such a great campaign.

[00:07:23] Paul: Um, but all of a sudden, after helping, you know, helping to give him this platform, you know, journalists were now faced with, oh, he got elected, because nobody thought he was going to get elected, you know, and what are we going to do with somebody who, from day one, is talking about Armageddon in the United States, and the fact that he’s at the largest, uh, audience for his, uh, inaugural when it was actually one of the smallest.

[00:07:46] Paul: Right. You know, and I think, uh, uh, Kellyanne Conway said that, uh, she had alternative facts. Right. You know, so journalists then began to sort of play around and get bolder and bolder going, you know, he said this, but it’s a lie. He said [00:08:00] this, and it’s a lie. You know, but you’re, um, you’re in a, position where the, the, the American public is so divided, you know, that a lot of folks are just not going to listen to that.

[00:08:13] Paul: I mean, I like the guy. It’s um, You know, and 70 plus million people voted for him for president, um, and think that he actually was elected president. I think 60, 70 percent of Republicans, uh, think that, uh, Biden’s election was illegitimate. So, what do you do in the world where, you know, you’re looking for an audience, um, you know, like the TV news programs, you know, the, the, the 30 minute programs have it a little bit easier because the journalists just go someplace and they report what happened.

[00:08:46] Paul: You know, like Canadian Texas almost burned down. We’re there. Uh, you know, umpteen people were killed in Gaza today. Uh, this is what happened on the, uh, you know, the front between Ukraine and the Russians. Um, [00:09:00] you know, for the entertainment part of, uh, cable, you know, which is much more, you know, for Fox and for MSNBC is much more ideological.

[00:09:09] Paul: They don’t have those problems. CNN, you know, has been trying to figure out what to do in the middle. Uh, you know, MSNBC, you know, You know, tried to hire Ronna McDaniel, who used to be, I think, Ronna, Romney McDaniel before she dropped that part of her name, um, you know, without vetting it with anybody. Now, you know, the, the challenge, you know, for that kind of journalism is, you know, is it important to have, and I think it is, you know, a divergent of views.

[00:09:42] Paul: You know, I think for a lot of people, um, uh, a lot of people that I know, uh, I suspect, Um, they would be surprised when, I had a conversation about this yesterday, with somebody who was talking about a member of Congress they knew, you know, who didn’t [00:10:00] like Trump, um, and, uh, he said that, uh, he realized that Trump was a threat to democracy, but he’s going to vote for him anyway.

[00:10:10] Paul: And my friend asked him why, and he said, that’s because Biden is a threat to, uh, civilization. Okay. Now, you know, we can laugh at this, but it’s kind of ridiculous. It’s patently ridiculous. Okay. Well, you know, but it’s, uh, you know, a lot of people actually probably believe that, and it’s kind of like, You know, so it’s sort of like, what is the, what’s the responsibility of journalism?

[00:10:32] Paul: I, I just don’t know. It’s kind of like, Paul, there are people

[00:10:34] Jeremi: who still believe, for instance, that, uh, Jews are inferior or that African Americans are genetically inferior and no one would put them on a standard news network to say that, would they?

[00:10:46] Paul: Well, what if Trump becomes president again? Right.

[00:10:48] Jeremi: So that’s the question.

[00:10:49] Jeremi: So what do you do when someone says that? What does the journalists think? Journalists responsibility to stay silent and make it sound like they’re not saying

[00:10:56] Paul: that. But I mean, if you keep saying he’s lying, he’s lying, he’s lying, and [00:11:00] half the population doesn’t listen to you, you know, then that’s an interesting challenge, you know, you know, what are the dynamics of this election?

[00:11:07] Paul: You know, I’m convinced that Trump is probably at a high watermark right now. Um, he’s not exactly reaching out, right, you know, to anybody. But at the same time, Joe Biden is at a historically low level. And I wonder if it’s his. That there’s been a tipping point, you know, sort of a Katrina moment. After Katrina, it wasn’t Iraq, you know, that killed George W.

[00:11:28] Paul: Bush’s popularity. It was Katrina. And the second that he responded or didn’t respond or in whatever way, nobody listened to him anymore. So it’s kind of like, does Biden have a record to run on? Of course he does. You know, is Biden, you know, you know, able to be able to give a really good speech? Yeah. The State of the Union was great.

[00:11:46] Paul: It was excellent. Yes. You know, whatever they, they hit him up with in terms of energy, uh, fluid, you know, Um, but, um, who’s listening? You know, has it actually affected the polls? Has it affected the slide? And who, who is the 10 [00:12:00] percent of America that’s voting for Robert Kennedy Jr.? Right. You know, I mean, who is he?

[00:12:05] Paul: He’s a rich guy who was a heroin addict, who actually wrote a book where he rated all the affairs he had. I mean, the guy is a sick person. And it’s kind of like, you know, but 10 percent of America wants to vote for him? You know, this has got to be, you know, there’s got to be a lot of unhappy folks. So in the middle of all this mess, you know, what do you do, you know, as a political analyst, of course, you try to be able to figure out what the facts are, uh, you try to parse that, you talk to a lot of people.

[00:12:34] Paul: It’s not like you’re going to be talking to the people who think the, the, the earth is round and then talk to the people who think the earth is flat, you know, though it’s, you know, curious to figure out why they think that, but it’s a really, it’s a hard job where The electorate is so fractured. And it’s so tribal and it’s so not listening to each other You know, it’s kind of like, you know, how do you put this fire out jeremy?

[00:12:58] Paul: Because I don’t I don’t know. Yeah, [00:13:00] zachary

[00:13:01] Zachary: Do you think there might still be, uh, media, media organizations or at least mediums, maybe documentary film, uh, that are still, uh, that still have broad appeal, um, that at least for a particular segment of the population with varying, um, backgrounds, uh, political perspectives still represents a sort of pillar of trust, or do you think that we just sort of each of us now have our own, uh, organization, um, are, are there still people?

[00:13:30] Zachary: Media that, uh, unite us

[00:13:32] Paul: in a way, Well, probably things that are not political. Like films, like Oppenheimer. Well, maybe. Oppenheimer, you know, is kind of, you know, high thought for many people. It’s, uh, you know, Barbie might be on a broader level for the population. You know, but for things that I’m interested in, you know, documentaries about politics, whatever, no.

[00:13:53] Paul: No, it’s kind of like you were, you’re in a box no matter if you think about it or not. Um,

[00:13:59] Jeremi: So Dinesh [00:14:00] D’Souza’s, uh, documentary has a different audience from your documentaries. Well, you know, his

[00:14:06] Paul: documentaries are horrible. You know, they’re prejudiced, they’re badly made. They’re conservative, you know, God bless him, he’s making a, uh, you know, a living doing this kind of bullshit.

[00:14:17] Paul: Oh, sorry. It’s okay. It’s okay. Uh, but, um, you know, there’s an audience for it, sure. There’s an audience there, you know, there’s a large audience for, you know, all kinds of stuff. Do I think that this is a, um, horrendous, you know, period we live in? It’s not like, you know, a billion years ago when Walter Cronkite said the Vietnam War was probably a mistake and everybody goes, oh my God, you know, the voice of God on CBS Yes.

[00:14:41] Paul: You know, has made a pronouncement, but back then there were three networks, you know, we were much more less divided, you know, there were actually families and my family included where my father was a Republican and my mother was a Democrat. I don’t, I’m not sure how many, you know, now. You know, if you, there’s a substantial number of [00:15:00] people that say that they would be, they would disown their kids if they married into, you know, somebody who was of a different party.

[00:15:07] Paul: Well, people have said that for

[00:15:08] Jeremi: a long time in surveys.

[00:15:09] Paul: Uh, I don’t know if it’s as strong as it is now, but it, it just feels like every now and then it feels hopeless, quite frankly. You know, it’s kind of like, well, maybe when Donald Trump goes away, it’ll get different. I don’t know. You know, it’s kind of like I, I saw his, uh, his most recent rally, and at the end of it, people were sticking their fingers up, apparently in a QAnon salute, and it’s kind of like, it’s, okay, you know, what’s the solution for that?

[00:15:35] Paul: You know, it’s kind of like, I may think a QAnon is pretty nuts. But,

[00:15:40] Jeremi: but what, what’s striking to me is, in spite of everything you’ve recounted, and some of it is, old story that’s just been accelerated and maybe deepened by current media. Uh, but the tribalism you describe, all of that is true, but at the same time, right, more people are applying to go to the same universities.[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Jeremi: Um, more people, uh, see, They’re willing to trust someone they don’t know, you know, on an airplane, flying them across the country on an aircraft. My grandfather used to be afraid to go on an aircraft, right? Now people are trusting in, you know, I don’t know if it’s a Democrat or Republican flying the aircraft.

[00:16:18] Jeremi: Why is it that in certain elements of our society, it seems people are willing to trust an institution or an individual and in other elements, they’re

[00:16:25] Paul: not? I don’t think that with an air, uh, with a pilot, you know, it would ever occur to you Are people applying? I thought that part of the problem with universities right now is that there’s a fairly significant decrease in the numbers of people that are trying to get into universities.

[00:16:40] Jeremi: For the top universities, including UT, Ivy League, Stanford, their applications have doubled and tripled in the last few years. Oh, okay. Which is interesting, right? Yeah.

[00:16:50] Paul: You know, I don’t know. It’s, uh, well, you’re having your fights, ideological fights, even in places like the University of Texas. Right. You know, I don’t want to get into it, but it’s kind of like, this is kind of interesting.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Paul: Some of the initiatives that the university is taking, you know, and at the same time, I think there was an article today about, uh, Governor Abbott and free speech at Texas universities. Yeah. Um,

[00:17:12] Jeremi: It’s not to say we’re not without controversy, but it is to say that despite the tribalism, Right. There are still common things that people gravitate to in our society, right?

[00:17:22] Jeremi: Hollywood films like Oppenheimer and Barbie can draw large audiences. Right. So, uh, the problems that the news media has don’t seem to be replicated in all parts of our society.

[00:17:34] Paul: But if you’re talking about what? Uh, impacts who we elect and how those people enact policies. You know, uh, let’s, let’s take Florida today.

[00:17:45] Paul: Okay, the Florida Supreme Court made a couple of different rulings. One was that, uh, they would allow the referenda, uh, to be able to have something in the state constitution, which would allow people to be able to, uh, seek [00:18:00] abortions until, uh, viability. Okay, but at the same time, they also Uh, uh, let the 15 week ban go into effect, but I think in a month or something, there’ll be a six week ban, uh, with only, uh, exceptions for, uh, for rape, incest, and, uh, and the life of the mother.

[00:18:20] Paul: It was interesting that one of the sponsors of that bill said it was a moderate bill. Right. Okay, because, you know, if you were raped or you were gonna die, uh, then you’d get an abortion. You know, now, will this have a gigantic impact on the electorate? It’s possible. I mean, one of the interesting things about this election is the impact of down ballot races.

[00:18:40] Paul: Um, a lot of people, uh, You know, uh, you know, don’t realize that, um, a lot of times presidential candidates can get pulled in by much more popular, uh, down ballot candidates. That’s right. And as for, for all the, you know, the stuff about, you know, will the Democrats lose the Senate, yeah, they might, you know, but [00:19:00] outside a mansion seat in West Virginia, all the incumbent Democrats are very strong, experienced candidates that have won before, won multiple times before.

[00:19:09] Paul: That’s right. And in the swing states of, uh. Of Arizona and, uh, in Michigan, uh, the Democrat, uh, candidates are raising tons of money in states where the Arizona and Michigan Democratic Party, you know, is in a state of chaos, you know, Republican Party and Republican Party. Yeah. So it’s, you know, that may, you know, benefit, uh, President Biden.

[00:19:33] Paul: And also there, I think there’s a referenda and maybe 10 states dealing with abortion, including Florida. Now, you know, though, you know, even more importantly, Nevada, Florida. Montana, um, I don’t think Pennsylvania is going to pass. But there’s a couple of others, you know, where they may have, you know, major impact.

[00:19:51] Paul: Arizona, you know, that may have made, because Because

[00:19:54] Jeremi: it draws out Democratic

[00:19:56] Paul: voters. Yeah, and people that are not liable to vote for President, or [00:20:00] former President Trump as well, so. Zachary.

[00:20:04] Zachary: Yes, I’m wondering, Paul, what you make of the coverage of the two candidates age, um, because that seems to be at least one of the first things that voters bring to mind when they think of this election cycle, and one of the sort of most, uh, perennial complaints, um, Of voters.

[00:20:22] Zachary: Um, what do you make of the way that the media has covered the, the, the, the candidates

[00:20:26] Jeremi: age, age and, uh, their mental acuity, Paul, well, part

[00:20:29] Paul: of part of President Biden’s problem is that he often looks and sounds old. Okay. That’s just the way it is because he is, you know, and whether you like or despise, uh, Donald Trump, uh, as insane as lots of the things that he says are, Okay.

[00:20:47] Paul: You know, he sounds more vibrant. I’m, I’m sorry, you know, He sounds more adolescent. Well, that depends on, you know, that, that depends on who you’re listening to, but it’s kind of like, a lot of people like that Viktor Orban, you know, you [00:21:00] know, uh, Putin kind of deal. You know, they’re entertained by it. You know, but even though he is grossly overweight, and even though he forgets lots of stuff, he doesn’t, in a way, doesn’t draw attention to the fact that he’s, Whatever it is, 77 or 78 years old, you know, and, uh, you know, so that’s a problem for the Biden campaign, you know, quite frankly, this is why we have campaigns and if they’re getting all these millions and millions of dollars, you know, the Biden campaign has got to hope that they actually have competent media people that can actually draw that contrast.

[00:21:36] Paul: You know, or it can remind you, you know, that Donald Trump sometimes has trouble remembering if it’s Obama or, you know, or Biden as president. Or Nikki

[00:21:45] Jeremi: Haley or Nancy Pelosi who was in Congress on January 6th,

[00:21:48] Paul: right? Okay, but again, this is like, you know, what’s important to people? I’ve talked to plenty of people that just don’t care.

[00:21:53] Paul: Jeremy, it’s kind of like they go, I just, you know, I don’t care. I like his policies.

[00:21:59] Jeremi: What would you [00:22:00] do? If you were in the position you had been in before and you were advising, let’s say, the Biden campaign to deal with the issue of his age, would you have him lean into it in the way he did in the State of the Union in the kind of Reagan way and say, you see, I’m more experienced or would you try to make him, you know, run miles out on public television?

[00:22:17] Jeremi: What would you do? How would you? I don’t want him run

[00:22:19] Paul: miles because I’d be scared that he might pass pass away. Um, so what would you do? I think I would just flood, he’s, he’s got so much money, you know, that I would try to define Trump now, okay, the same way that Obama defined Romney in 2012. And I would also have lots of stuff with Biden talking, okay, and talking like, you know, he isn’t an old man, uh, as much as possible.

[00:22:46] Paul: And he’s already, you know, trying to go out there and give lots of speeches. He’s not going to Hillary Clinton this. You know, he’s not going to not go to Wisconsin.

[00:22:54] Jeremi: He’s going to Wisconsin twice in the next couple weeks. Yeah, so it’s,

[00:22:58] Paul: I think he understands [00:23:00] that he’s got to do something of like the give him hell Harry, you know, 1948 deal.

[00:23:04] Paul: Yeah. Okay, but if you’re gonna, you know, and they’ve been very wise of not spending their money during the Republican primaries, you know, holding forth, okay, but you’re getting close to the period of time when it is time to define your opponent. And if you really want this to be a referendum, Um, both folks, that’s part of what your deal is on a campaign, you know, and to get there before there’s an un, un, un, you know, an unsolvable tipping point.

[00:23:33] Jeremi: What about the indictments of Donald Trump? How do those play out and what should one, how should those be covered?

[00:23:40] Paul: You know, I don’t know. It’s kind of like, you know, you get so much stuff, you know, it’s like covering, you know, what, what Donald Trump says, you know, you get so much stuff that you begin to not pay attention.

[00:23:50] Paul: But that’s the problem, right? You get overloaded. Yeah, um, you know, there is evidence that if you ever got convicted of anything, It would hurt him, okay? And, you know, [00:24:00] I have a feeling that he’s going to, you know, get convicted of something in the Stormy Daniels trial. Quite frankly, I think that I’m really curious, not when Michael Cohen testifies, but when Stormy Daniels testifies.

[00:24:12] Paul: Because I think that will get incredible amounts of coverage, and this can’t be positive coverage. Also, Hope

[00:24:17] Jeremi: Hicks, right, who was his assistant, uh, media, uh, She

[00:24:24] Paul: gave really great testimony to the committee. I’m just not sure that anybody who hasn’t already made a decision

[00:24:31] Jeremi: cares. Do you think Stormy Daniels will convince people?

[00:24:34] Jeremi: Of course,

[00:24:35] Paul: like a porn star talking about, you know, her sex life with Donald Trump? I mean, you know, who’s not going to, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, uh I think

[00:24:43] Jeremi: that might turn out to be pretty boring, but anyway. Well,

[00:24:45] Paul: it could be, you know, she’s like, you know, don’t put her down. A good Louisiana person, you know, uh, chose a good name.

[00:24:52] Paul: It’s kind of like, you know, it could be boring. You know, she said he was pretty boring. Yeah, yeah. Remember, he liked to watch Shark Week when he was with her. That’s right. [00:25:00] I’ve never seen shark wave. I heard it’s great.

[00:25:02] Jeremi: So my last question, Paul, before we bring things to a close, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve given us a lot of interesting thoughts as you always do on these issues.

[00:25:10] Jeremi: Um, one of the things apparently that the Biden campaign is doing, and then also that a lot of media organizations are doing is trying to reach people, particularly young people through social media, right? How do you assess how that’s working? You’re

[00:25:23] Paul: asking me? Uh, yeah. You know, young folks don’t watch the kind of documentaries I do, so it’s, you know, I, I don’t know, Jeremy, TikTok, uh, you know, definitely not Facebook.

[00:25:35] Paul: That’s for like old folks. Um, you know, it’s, uh, you know, if I had, if I had an answer to that, I’d still be running campaigns. There you go. You know, but I think that you have got to figure out something because if people don’t vote, Right. You know, especially in a demographic, which is. You know, increasingly predominantly Democratic, then you’ve got a problem,

[00:25:57] Jeremi: right, Zachary.

[00:25:59] Jeremi: Maybe you can [00:26:00] shed some insight on this How do you see the efforts that both media organizations and campaigns are using to reach people like you? new voters 19 20 year olds. How do you see those working? Are they working? What effect are they

[00:26:16] Zachary: having? Um, I mean, I maybe I need to say the same thing, which is you’re asking me, but because I’m not the most connected on social media either.

[00:26:27] Zachary: Um, but my impression is that the Biden campaign. Has been has been learning its lesson very quickly. I think from what I’ve seen, they did a rather poor job, uh, in the last and in the sort of first few months of the year, um, uh, sort of rolling out the campaign social media, but that they’ve tightened. Up the, the, the, the, uh, work in the last few, uh, months and weeks greatly.

[00:26:53] Zachary: I think the state of the union helped to give them a lot of really good clips. Um, and I also just think that, [00:27:00] um, uh, Biden will have a lot of opportunities, uh, in the next few weeks and months to really spotlight. Uh, what I think he does best, which is sort of personal interactions with people on the campaign trail.

[00:27:12] Zachary: Uh, I’m worried that’s not getting through though. I think that it’s very easy for young people on social media to become very siloed very quickly. Yeah. Um, and to sort of only see things about Biden, uh, or his campaign or his policies that are often very skewed. Or, or put through a particular political filter or ideology.

[00:27:32] Zachary: Um, and I think the real challenge for the Biden campaign, when it comes to reaching out to young people is going to be breaking what can very quickly become sort of very narrow political echo chambers. Um, but I think the good news is that I think there are a lot of young people that are looking for someone to, to speak to them with a unifying message.

[00:27:51] Zachary: Um, Um, and to, and to show how their policies can and do impact their lives. And I think Biden has a great track record in that sense that [00:28:00] he can brag about, but he needs to do it in a way that appeals to young people and speaks to those

[00:28:05] Jeremi: issues directly. That makes a lot of sense. Paul, last question to you.

[00:28:09] Jeremi: Um, you’re often very, you’re often very, uh, cynical. What makes you most optimistic if anything right now?

[00:28:18] Paul: Um, I’m really not sure. You know, it’s kind of like, uh, I find politics, uh, very depressing right now. I don’t know how we get past the, the divisions. Um, and I hope for, um, but it’ll be an interesting, kind of insane campaign, and I hope, uh But

[00:28:34] Jeremi: you think it’ll matter?

[00:28:35] Jeremi: You think the media coverage, there is a way to persuade people? It is possible?

[00:28:38] Paul: I just, I’m just not sure. I’m really not sure.

[00:28:41] Jeremi: What do you think, Zachary? What makes you optimistic? I’m

[00:28:46] Zachary: optimistic that Biden can get his message through. I think he has a really strong record to run on. I’m also optimistic that young people will pay attention to this election.

[00:28:59] Zachary: As much [00:29:00] griping, I think, as there is about Uh, the, uh, pain of another Biden Trump election cycle. Uh, with all of that, I still think that young people understand the stakes of this election. I do think Biden needs to make those clear. He needs to highlight them in his campaign. Um, but I think young people do understand them intuitively and I’m hopeful and optimistic that young people will pay attention to them.

[00:29:27] Zachary: So this campaign as it continues and that they will vote,

[00:29:31] Jeremi: you know, that’s a very good note to close on in a, in a certain way, our democracy depends upon an informed citizenry as Paul has shared with us today. And as many of us know, uh, informing the citizenry is more complex, perhaps than it’s ever been.

[00:29:46] Jeremi: It’s more difficult. Then it’s ever been to separate the real news from the fake news. Um, but nonetheless, we have to have some faith in voters, particularly young voters, that they will take the time and make the effort to get good [00:30:00] information and make decisions on behalf of what Franklin Roosevelt did.

[00:30:04] Jeremi: called The New Chapter of Our Democracy. Every generation, as Roosevelt reminded us, has a role in helping our democracy adjust to the challenges of its time. In the 1930s, there was the Great Depression. In the 1940s, World War II, 1950s, the challenges of McCarthyism and the Cold War, and today, these challenges are challenges of extremism and tribalism, as Paul has shared with us so well.

[00:30:28] Jeremi: Uh, and I think, Zachary, your, your words remind us and your poem reminds us that we have to have some faith. We have no choice. We have to have some faith in, in voters and particularly new voters coming to these issues with the seriousness that you show. Thank you, Paul, for joining us today and sharing your insights and experiences as always.

[00:30:46] Jeremi: Thank you, Zachary, for your poem and your insights. And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of This Is Democracy.[00:31:00]

[00:31:02] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Jerez Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find This Is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:31:22] Outro: See you next time.