This Is Democracy Episode 242: Reforming Political Parties

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice and what happens next.

[00:00:27] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week we’re going to talk about parties in American democracy and in particular efforts, historical and contemporary to break out of the partisan divisions that often stymie our democracy. This is not a, an entirely new phenomenon, but I think everyone looking at American democracy today would recognize, uh, that the two party system is creating, uh, in many cases a lack of choice and is certainly making it.

[00:00:51] Jeremi Suri: Difficult to initiate many of the reforms that our system needs, both structurally and in terms of policy. We’re joined by the two people who I think are doing more around the country to raise awareness around these issues and to try to fix these issues. Uh, they are political reformers where they’re great deal of experience and, uh, they are leading a new initiative called The Forward Party, and we’re gonna talk about that.

[00:01:13] Jeremi Suri: As well, uh, our two guests are, uh, governor Christine Todd Whitman, who was the 50th governor of New Jersey. Uh, I remember very well growing up in New York when she became governor of New Jersey and how jealous I was. They had such a good governor. Uh, we didn’t have as good a governor in New York, but that’s an another story.

[00:01:30] Jeremi Suri: Uh, she also was the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, uh, during the administration of George W. Bush. And she has played many other roles, written books about politics and has been one of the leading advocates of trying to reform the Republican party and now trying to move away from the structure of the Republican party, at least as it is today.

[00:01:48] Jeremi Suri: And we’re very, uh, fortunate to have her with us. Thank you for joining us. It’s my pleasure. Uh, our other guests are equally incredible and awesome Guest is, uh, Andrew Yang. Uh, I’m sure all of our listeners know Andrew Yang as well. He’s an entrepreneur, author, Phil Philanthropist, nonprofit leader. He was a candidate for presidency and outlasted many other, uh, seasoned politicians, uh, and played a really important role in shaping the debate.

[00:02:14] Jeremi Suri: I think in the last presidential election he also ran for Mayor of New York, which I think is probably the most difficult job in the world. I think President was an easier job, don’t you think? Oh,

[00:02:23] Andrew Yang: well it was certainly a more fun campaign. So that’s

[00:02:27] Jeremi Suri: an measure. Well, we’re delighted, uh, Andrew to have you with us.

[00:02:31] Jeremi Suri: Thank you for It’s great to be here. Thank you. And of course we have our scene setting poem from Mr. Zachary Siri. And you’re coming to us from Berlin today, Zachary, right?

[00:02:39] Zachary Suri: I am, yes. This is a transatlantic poem. Do

[00:02:42] Jeremi Suri: do you wanna say a little bit about what you’re doing in Berlin before we hear the poem?

[00:02:46] Jeremi Suri: Sure.

[00:02:46] Zachary Suri: Well, I am an intern, uh, in the, uh, Bundestag or lower House of the Parliament here, uh, in the office of Isabella Kaori, uh, who is a representative from the city of Monheim.

[00:02:57] Jeremi Suri: And how’s your German? Uh, okay. All right. So let, what’s the title of your poem? The title of my

[00:03:06] Zachary Suri: poem is Four Questions.

[00:03:09] Jeremi Suri: It’s Not Passover.

[00:03:10] Jeremi Suri: Zachary, that’s three questions, I guess, right? All right, go ahead, Zachary.

[00:03:18] Zachary Suri: If this is the moment when all our hopes must come true at the same time, or none of them let us ask the questions, we have always been too afraid to ask. Could we ever see those Purple Mountain majesties, or was the sky here always, always hazy and the waters in our rivers never clear?

[00:03:39] Zachary Suri: Did we ever have a chance to see a banner star spangled and unspoiled, or had we already soiled the bed and forgotten what it demands to keep the promises of liberty pristine. Did that grand old flag ever fly in peace, or was everything quiet? Just a lull in the same battle? A pause before an unceremonious return to arms.

[00:04:04] Zachary Suri: Was it ever mourning in America or just a flash of light at the end of a tunnel, which seemed to get closer, but was always far away? No. We have touched the gilded ceilings of liberty and flown on the temperate wings of peace. We have seen each shining sea both at the same time, and we have seen many sunrises before.

[00:04:29] Zachary Suri: It’s only dark now because we haven’t bothered to turn on the lights.

[00:04:34] Jeremi Suri: Hmm. Beautiful. Very thought provoking. What, what’s your poem about Zachary? My poem

[00:04:40] Zachary Suri: is really, I think about about. Forcing ourselves to reflect on where we are as a country and asking the hard questions, uh, trying to find places where we have failed, but also recognizing that our values and the principles which our institutions are supposed to protect and do protect at their best are worth fighting for.

[00:05:03] Zachary Suri: And realizing that if we want to achieve those values and, and, and to meet them, Then we, we also need to be involved and, and take part in, in our democratic institutions.

[00:05:13] Jeremi Suri: That’s a powerful message. Well said.

[00:05:15] Christine Todd Whitman: Uh, governor Whitman, your thoughts? Well, I think that was excellent. I really do appreciate it. It, uh, in a very eloquent way, laid out the challenge in front of us, but also gives hope, right?

[00:05:26] Christine Todd Whitman: I mean, shows that we can make a difference, right? We, we can take things back. We can be that. What we hope and always aspire to be. Yes. So I think it was very important. I would love a copy when you’re

[00:05:39] Jeremi Suri: finished with it,

[00:05:41] Andrew Yang: Andrew, turn on the light. It’d be a fine slogan for forward. Yes. Yes. You should use it.

[00:05:48] Andrew Yang: Sure. And we’ll credit Zach.

[00:05:51] Jeremi Suri: Uh, why Andrew? Uh, are you so. Uh, determined to break our party system. Why do you think the party system is not turning on the light right now?

[00:06:01] Andrew Yang: It’s not turning on the light because it’s not designed to, and it doesn’t have to. Uh, and that’s what we have to change. Um, I ran for president and when I used to talk to young people like Zach, I would say to you, I’m sorry.

[00:06:14] Andrew Yang: I’m sorry we’ve left you such a dysfunctional mess. I’m sorry that, uh, the country you’re inheriting is not what it should be. And the question is, how can we actually get it to a point where we’re proud to leave it to the next generation? Because we’re certainly very far from that now. Right.

[00:06:29] Jeremi Suri: Governor Whitman, you’re a lifelong Republican.

[00:06:31] Jeremi Suri: Uh, your parents met uh, right at in the ni at the 1932 Republican Convention. I said, no, I have to confess. I teach about the 1932 Democratic Convention. Now I need to teach

[00:06:40] Christine Todd Whitman: about the Republican. Now you teach about the Republican, you gotta be even handed here.

[00:06:43] Jeremi Suri: What brought you to this, a lifelong Republican now trying to change the party system?

[00:06:48] Christine Todd Whitman: Well, watching the party that I knew turned into a cult, frankly, it’s no longer a party. It, I watched it start to get more and more ingrained in and encumbered by social issues where the stances were very hard and fast, and you had to believe a certain way in order to be a recognized Republican. And it’s, um, it was something that, Was just not the way I was brought up and it was not designed to solve problems.

[00:07:15] Christine Todd Whitman: And our country has a lot of them. We need to address them, but you’re only gonna address them if you’re willing to work across the aisle. And the system right now is not set up to encourage that. In fact, it’s set up to discourage it. So,

[00:07:29] Jeremi Suri: so what changed? I mean, you’ve seen this in your lifetime. You’re, if I might say a primary document on this, right?

[00:07:34] Jeremi Suri: You’ve lived through and experienced, I’m the, I’m

[00:07:36] Christine Todd Whitman: old, but really a

[00:07:36] Jeremi Suri: primary document. You No. It’s your wisdom and your insider connections. Um, but, but what changed because obviously, uh, I remember your campaign for governor of, of New Jersey. You, you weren’t saying that then, because you, it wasn’t the case then.

[00:07:50] Jeremi Suri: So what’s changed in, in the two or three decades?

[00:07:53] Christine Todd Whitman: Well, I think what really started the change was when Newt Gingrich divided, The incoming freshman congressman, it used to be that they all went through orientation together, both sides of the aisle. And he said, no, we can’t do that anymore. We gotta separate it.

[00:08:07] Christine Todd Whitman: Mm-hmm. And that was the start of they don’t even get to know each other. Hmm. They don’t spend any time together. They don’t all know the, their names of their fellow. Congress people. And that started the ability that the parties then getting stronger and stronger in a way that the redistricting then went.

[00:08:24] Christine Todd Whitman: Uh, actually about 20 years ago, the Republicans got smart and they started working at the local level. They started electing local officials who would make those decisions when it came time to do redistricting, cuz it’s done at the state level and they started to carve up the system so it benefited.

[00:08:40] Christine Todd Whitman: One party or the other and the Democrats are doing the same thing. I mean, I’m not just blaming Republicans. Right. Right. Of it’s, it’s happening on both sides and it’s, so, it’s set up to be a system whereby you don’t worry about the general election. Mm-hmm. You only worry about your primary cuz that’s the only place you can lose.

[00:08:55] Christine Todd Whitman: Mm-hmm. And so you have to worry about your base and they, when you have. Primary turnouts of 10 to 12%. Those are the most partisan people. Right. And that’s been the average over the years. Right. Uh, you have the most partisan people voting and th those are your choices. Right. For the fall. Right. They come from the most extremes of

[00:09:13] Jeremi Suri: the parties.

[00:09:13] Jeremi Suri: Right. And I, I have to say, having lived in New York and living in Texas, I’ve seen exactly that for both parties. Mm-hmm. Uh, the New York primary is entirely dominated by, by Democrats. Right. So, at least in New York City and in Texas, it’s, it’s, it’s the alternative universe. Mm-hmm. It’s the reverse of that.

[00:09:28] Jeremi Suri: Andrew.

[00:09:29] Andrew Yang: Uh, super grateful to be working with the, with the governor. For me, I ran for president because I feared that we’re going through this profound economic transformation and our country was not meaningfully responding. Uh, and I realized that. Our system is not designed for good policy. Uh, it’s designed now, unfortunately, for inflammation and antagonism and polarization.

[00:09:52] Andrew Yang: Then those forces are getting stronger and stronger. Most people at this point are not excited about whoever they’re voting for. They’re just being conditioned to despise the other side so much that they’ll say, well, You only find one of us acceptable. So now you have to vote for the acceptable person.

[00:10:07] Andrew Yang: And even who’s acceptable is different depending upon what, what side you’re on. Uh, and in that environment, we’re never going to solve for automation, ai, poverty, climate change, uh, homelessness, substance abuse, public education, you name it. There are more and more people around the country who are fed up and frustrated by the lack of.

[00:10:31] Andrew Yang: Progress on issues they care deeply about. And you have to hit bring your head up and say, okay, why is it that we all feel so despondent about the direction of our politics? Why is it that Congress can have a 22% approval rating and incumbent members can have a 94% reelection rate? Like what system delivers that?

[00:10:50] Andrew Yang: Uh, and if you do have a 94% reelection rate by. Doing exactly what the governor said, which is just placate the base. Then where does that leave the next generation who’s been waiting for some kind of intelligent policy approach, these problems that are getting worse and worse? Yeah,

[00:11:05] Jeremi Suri: that’s very well said, Zachary.

[00:11:07] Jeremi Suri: I. Um,

[00:11:09] Zachary Suri: so you two, uh, see a solution to this, to this problem in, in a third party, or at least in a third political path. And I guess my question is, where is the place for a third party in American democracy? What is the role of a third party? I think a lot of our listeners will probably, uh, Immediately have a gut world reaction to that and see third parties as maybe we’ve been trained to since 2000 as spoilers or as, as parties, that, that, that play a harmful role in our democracy.

[00:11:38] Zachary Suri: What is the place for a third party in, in our society? Well,

[00:11:41] Andrew Yang: I, I wanna tackle this for, uh, a little bit because, um, the goal of the forward party, and I think any reform effort should be to reconnect people and what we want to our elected leaders and the way to do that. In my view is through a combination of nonpartisan primaries and rank choice voting.

[00:11:59] Andrew Yang: Now, if you agree that that’s the set of reforms you need, you have a very limited set of choices. You can say, Hey, I will try and do it within the two party system, which would be an immediate loser because one side would regard you as a blue or red plot. You’d be excluding half the country. And then even the party you’re trying to operate within would say, why are we going to relinquish our.

[00:12:21] Andrew Yang: Super tight control of our turf when the other side doesn’t have to to do the same. So you are then left with an independent. Political effort outside of the two party system that’s trying to change the incentive so that the fiction we’re being fed, which is that our leaders have to answer to 51% of us.

[00:12:40] Andrew Yang: That’s not what HA actually is happening. What they’re answering to is, as the governor said, the 10 to 12% of most extreme voters. So to reestablish that connection, you have to be outside the two party system and the conditioning around a third party is very, very, Clear, but it’s off base based upon what we are actually doing because all of that conditioning is centered on a presidential race.

[00:13:03] Andrew Yang: If the shorthand is Ralph Nader, Jill Stein Ross Perot, and what we’re doing is the opposite and that we’re tackling the 43% of Texas races and the up to 70% of races in the us. Where there’s not any contest or competition because one party or the other has that district or position locked down.

[00:13:25] Andrew Yang: Democrats are not running around to rural areas in Red State saying, Hey, we’re gonna run someone. They do not care because that. It has nothing to do with whether they control their turf. The state and the country have been divvied up into Blue and red zones, and so if you say we are the pro dynamism, pro competition, independent political effort, we’re gonna introduce candidates in places where there is no competition.

[00:13:48] Andrew Yang: That’s actually a pure good, and the press narrative or the conditioning that we’ve received isn’t. Accurate, but it’s really used just as a punitive bludgeon. It’s saying, Hey, you’re not happy with what’s going on right now. Well, tough luck because if you try and do something outside the system, Nader or whatever the heck, right, right.

[00:14:07] Andrew Yang: Like, like that. That’s the shorthand. So, uh, it, it’s knee jerk. It’s inaccurate, as you can tell. I’m a little bit annoyed. Um, be because people who imagine themselves to be smart and educated actually slump into that conditioning because that’s what they’re being told by their. Press

[00:14:24] Christine Todd Whitman: narrative. The other thing is that the beauty of what we’re talking about and what makes it different from what we’ve seen in the past is the emphasis on open primaries and rank choice voting.

[00:14:35] Christine Todd Whitman: And what that essentially means is that you walk into your polling place and you can vote. If they’re five candidates for governor, you say, okay, I really like this person. That’s the one I wanna see. And then, oh, if he can’t or she can’t make it, then this one is the one I’d like. And you go down the ballot and you list them in order of preference.

[00:14:54] Christine Todd Whitman: And it difference from state to state whether they take the top two, top three, top five. But what happens is when the votes are counted, if no one has gotten to 51.1%, the bottom person with the least number of votes is knocked off and their second place. Choices of their voters get allocated up the ballot, right?

[00:15:13] Christine Todd Whitman: And so it keeps going and it’s an instant runoff system, and it keeps going until you have someone that has 50.1%. So what it does is it’s not a spoiler effect because as Andrew said, we are concentrating on those offices closest to the people that make the decisions that most immediately affect your daily life.

[00:15:32] Christine Todd Whitman: I mean, mm-hmm. Here in Texas, the sheriff, right? Uh, the school board, right? The library commission, your mayor and council. And in many of those there, no, there’s no contest. So there’s nothing to lose there. And in others it’s what you’ve done is you’ve opened it up so that everyone’s vote counts. So if you’re a Democrat in a very Republican district, your vote still is gonna matter.

[00:15:56] Christine Todd Whitman: And the change it also makes in the tenor of campaigns is that everyone wants to be liked cuz you wanna be at least number two, right on everybody’s ballots, right? So you don’t go out and have these nasty ads that are saying, the other person’s a real jerk. And look at me, I’m wonderful because most people say, okay, I don’t like I either of this.

[00:16:12] Christine Todd Whitman: I don’t trust you at all. So it’s a, it’s a different way of approaching it that is not going to be. It’s certainly not gonna be a spoiler in races where you don’t have any competition because there’s never been that opportunity. Right. And even where you have some competition, and oh, by the way, Ford will support a Republican, a Democrat, or an independent if they agree with our principles.

[00:16:35] Christine Todd Whitman: And those principles are respect the rule of law, uphold the constitution, be willing to work across the aisle, and be willing to work to change the way we mm-hmm. Elect our, our, uh, candidates. Mm-hmm. And that’s open primaries and rank choice voting.

[00:16:49] Jeremi Suri: So one place where I think we’ve had a natural experiment of this is New York City, right?

[00:16:54] Jeremi Suri: There was rank choice voting in New York City. Uh, were you satisfied with the results? Did it, did it show what you wanted to

[00:16:59] Andrew Yang: see? Well, I, I wanna be very clear that the rank choice voting that was used in New York City was within the Democratic Party primary. Right? Right. Fair. So you had 900,000 people vote in that primary.

[00:17:09] Andrew Yang: Might sound like a lot, but the. Citi has 9.1 million people. So you had about 10% of people participate in the Democratic primary. The winner might have gotten three and a half percent, and you need to have registered as a Democrat in February for a June primary. So you’re still talking about essentially a closed system that was dominated by insiders, uh, and folks who are very, very heavily invested.

[00:17:37] Andrew Yang: Right. Of course. Of course in, in the win now was rank choice voting within that primary, uh, an improvement. Over a traditional ALI voting system. Yes, it was. But there’s even now an effort in New York City called Final Five NYC that is trying to say, look, have all New Yorkers participate in an all party primary?

[00:17:57] Andrew Yang: Then have the final five candidates of any party get through and be decided, be a ranked choice voting. That would be a real change and, and that’s exactly the kind of thing that might make it so that. New Yorkers felt a difference in the policies. I, I

[00:18:12] Jeremi Suri: guess one of the issues that we have to discuss is where to put the emphasis.

[00:18:16] Jeremi Suri: I think that the case for rank choice voting is very strong. People are concerned, of course, that it’s complicated, but as I’ve heard both of you say, we shouldn’t assume people are

[00:18:25] Christine Todd Whitman: dumb people. You can’t be that they, there aren’t ab they are not able to do 1, 2, 3, right? I mean, a 10

[00:18:30] Andrew Yang: year old rank their ice cream flavors.

[00:18:32] Andrew Yang: 1, 2, 3, you know, so, Thing and the average American adult can’t do it. And people

[00:18:36] Jeremi Suri: do this online all the time for various other things, right, exactly. Bidding on eBay and things of that sort, right? Mm-hmm. But, um, it does, there is the question in, in politics always, what do you emphasize, right? Um, and putting the emphasis on that doesn’t mean you’re against, uh, addressing voter suppression.

[00:18:51] Jeremi Suri: But some would say that voter suppression is more the issue. Then, uh, the way we vote, it’s who does not get

[00:18:57] Christine Todd Whitman: to vote. Yeah. It depends so much on the state where that’s a major issue and that’s where Forward again, is different because the National Party is not gonna have a platform per se that says, this is how you have to believe on issues like that or, or climate change or anything.

[00:19:11] Christine Todd Whitman: They’re gonna say the principles that we had and they’re gonna, we’re probably going to also say, and we have that it’s important to. Look at how we, how we redistrict and put out some examples of where we’ve seen the new three commissions, the nonpartisan commissions work, but it’s up to the state to decide what works for them.

[00:19:32] Christine Todd Whitman: And then it’s up for the up to the state to pick the issues of import importance to that state. Because then you get candidates who are talking. To their public, to their mm-hmm. Constituents very directly and they’re going to pay more attention to those issues that are of, of immediate importance. And that’s one of the things that’s, that’s really important.

[00:19:53] Christine Todd Whitman: Cause people feel part of the, the anger that. Donald Trump tapped into was the frustration and anger of people, particularly in Middle America, who felt nobody was listening to them, Congress was dysfunctional, they weren’t getting heard, their issues weren’t being addressed, and they were mad. I don’t blame them.

[00:20:10] Christine Todd Whitman: Mm-hmm. I mean, I think we were all mad, but uh, was,

[00:20:14] Andrew Yang: I wanna be clear that most of our votes are getting suppressed all the time. I mean, you’re talking about a country where 75% of us live under one party rule, including the folks in Texas, which means that Absolutely. Mm-hmm. The vast majority of people are looking up saying, wait a minute, I have no meaningful say right in what the heck is is happening in my country.

[00:20:31] Andrew Yang: Um, so that’s the voter suppression we should be. Frustrated by the most in including the fact that in a lot of places, independents can vote and, and you can’t, uh, have a system where almost half of Americans, uh, feel like, okay, somehow my tax dollars are paying for these party processes and I’m not even allowed to vote in the primary.

[00:20:51] Andrew Yang: That’s gonna determine everything and then say, well, that’s fair. That’s truly democratic. So,

[00:20:56] Jeremi Suri: You know, historically, uh, in our, the ways in which reform has occurred, has been within the parties, uh, you are doing something that is in a way, uh, not unprecedented in its historical effort. But the truth is, if you think of the Great party reformers, the great reformers in our politics, the William Jennings Bryans, the Theodore Roosevelts, the Franklin Roosevelts, uh, to some extent the Ronald Reagans, uh, they worked within a party.

[00:21:20] Jeremi Suri: It was Reagan challenging Ford. Right. It was tr taking on Taft. Um, why

[00:21:27] Andrew Yang: do you think, why, why are you excluding Abraham

[00:21:28] Jeremi Suri: Lincoln? Well, okay, let’s talk about that. Well, he’s, he’s one of our favorite figures to talk about. Mm-hmm. I would think

[00:21:33] Andrew Yang: so. Yeah. Hope

[00:21:35] Jeremi Suri: so. So, so how do you see your, what you are doing is following in that model.

[00:21:39] Jeremi Suri: Well,

[00:21:40] Andrew Yang: people say, oh, third party, uh, can’t happen. But then you. Think about the Republican party, right? Uh, in 1860, which itself was the third party. I mean, it, it came really out of nowhere in a very short period of time. Most people don’t realize that Lincoln won the presidency with something like 39% of the vote, 9% right?

[00:21:59] Andrew Yang: Uh, in a four party or four candidate race. Mm-hmm. Uh, we all think about Lincoln as one of our greatest leaders. This country is actually overdue for a political realignment. Uh, you know, there, there are record levels of Americans who say there are independents record levels of Americans who say there should be a new political alternative.

[00:22:21] Andrew Yang: Uh, I’m a numbers guy. Young people in particular don’t. Like either of the parties very much. It’s something like 65 to 70% don’t identify with either one of them. So if you had to think about all of the changes we’re undergoing as a society and as a country, and say, but no, this creaky, cranky, 160 year old political system that none of us likes, like that’s gonna stand the test of time.

[00:22:42] Andrew Yang: Yeah. Like, we’re gonna, we’re gonna look back 50 years and be like, oh yeah, this system, it, it’s still clicking. I mean, it’s not clicking now. And, and by the way, it’s uniquely subject to authoritarianism, right? We have a system where if you have one of the major parties that come to terrible leadership, the incentives are for everyone to fall in line.

[00:22:58] Andrew Yang: And that can lead to unthinkable things in the us, uh, where we’re serving it up, uh, on a silver platter. And, and there are people who are, who are Democrats who say, look, our plan is to defeat the other side. For all time. And I’m gonna say that plan is dumb like that. That will not work. You’re talking about a two party system where you naturally kind of see the pendulum swing and trade power to the other side.

[00:23:22] Andrew Yang: Every one to two cycles. Uh, a country where something like 85% of us think we’re going in the wrong direction, but we’re gonna keep one party in power forever. Like that doesn’t make any sense. So we owe it to the next generation to make it so we have a system that’s genuinely representative, genuinely resilient.

[00:23:37] Andrew Yang: And if we fail in this, we are going to wind up in something very, very dark and dystopian, uh, in a relatively short timeframe. That makes

[00:23:45] Jeremi Suri: a lot of sense. And I wanna turn to Zachary’s question, but I I wanna just, uh, build on what you said to point out that the Republican party of Abraham Lincoln replaced the wig party, right?

[00:23:55] Jeremi Suri: So we really didn’t have. A three party system. We had the weak party become, no, it

[00:24:00] Christine Todd Whitman: was an upstart when it, oh, of course when it ran, it was a third party basically.

[00:24:04] Jeremi Suri: Um, it was an insurgency within the weak party. It was, yeah. It was not, there were very few Democrats. I. Who became Republicans at that time. It was wigs.

[00:24:13] Jeremi Suri: It was former wigs who became Republicans or those who were not in either party. And,

[00:24:17] Andrew Yang: and then the, the wigs kind of fragmented. There was like the, no, nothings. Um, so could you see a realignment? And I think the governors are a very powerful emblem. I mean, we talked to folks who are joining forward, and by the way, Ford grows all the time.

[00:24:32] Andrew Yang: I. Uh, who were lifelong Republicans and said, you know what, like, this is not the party that I joined, right? And, uh, you know, I’m looking for a new home. And they found forward. There are folks who are lifelong Democrats, uh, who look up and say, wait a minute, this system is not actually going to deliver on any of the solutions and policies that I want.

[00:24:49] Andrew Yang: And I also don’t want to hate my neighbors, and it’s tearing my family apart and the rest of it. Um, so I’m going to join forward. Uh, and there is something of a. Zero sum game in the sense that, you know, if people join forward, they’re probably leaving another party. Um, but that doesn’t mean that somehow it’s not a realignment.

[00:25:07] Andrew Yang: I mean, it very much is c certainly Zachary,

[00:25:11] Jeremi Suri: um,

[00:25:12] Zachary Suri: I wanna bring it back just a second to the, to the metaphor to, to 1860, because with all due respect that the, the Republican party in 1860 had an ideology, it had a platform. How do you think you can galvanize. A third party galvanized grassroots political activism.

[00:25:29] Zachary Suri: Without one Unifying cause or ideology or, or, or platform.

[00:25:34] Andrew Yang: Oh, we do have a unifying,

[00:25:35] Christine Todd Whitman: yeah, we do have a, go ahead. The unifying cause is to make the system open the system up, so it’s responsive to everybody, but that state parties will have platforms. It’s just that you don’t want somebody from Washington.

[00:25:48] Christine Todd Whitman: Telling you in Texas what you have to care about and how you have to think about it. And I have used this a lot of times after my reelection as governor. I was asked to run for the Senate and when I, not wanting to but went down and met with the Republican Senatorial campaign committee, I was told in no uncertain terms and this was backward talking 1997.

[00:26:08] Christine Todd Whitman: Um, if you so much as mentioned campaign finance reform, you won’t get a penny from us and no support. That’s the kind of control that the parties have today. They force their members to address, uh, issues that are picked from the top. They force them to vote a certain way and to talk about issues a certain way.

[00:26:29] Christine Todd Whitman: You’ve seen many, Andrew uses the example all the time of somebody that you’ll meet one-on-one and talk to them and they’re very reasonable, and then all of a sudden they get to Congress and you say, who the heck is, or you is put a,

[00:26:39] Andrew Yang: is this or a TV camera on them? You get ’em on a cable news segment, right?

[00:26:42] Andrew Yang: They seem like crazy

[00:26:42] Christine Todd Whitman: town and they’re just gone. And you want to know what an earth has

[00:26:46] Andrew Yang: happened. And, and so I, but I do want to dig into this because the, the governors right, we have a very clear mission, a very clear ideology, and our energy is, look, let’s make American democracy work again. We are one country.

[00:26:59] Andrew Yang: Uh, we love each other. We will not be turned against each other. In a way, we’re trying to build a tribe of the folks who are turned off by the tribalism. Now, if. That doesn’t sound like something that might, you know, animate 51% of Americans, that’s fine because in a polarized system you don’t need 51%.

[00:27:20] Andrew Yang: Mm-hmm. To change everything and fix everything. What percent do you need? 10, 12, 15%. If we get 15% of Americans excited about this vision, which is look. Stop the hate. Let’s actually sit down, treat each other like human beings, work out the problems, and turn off the machines that are benefiting from our hatred and are not solving any of our problems, and are causing our communities to degrade, uh, and families to turn against each other, like then we win.

[00:27:50] Andrew Yang: That’s the magic, because if you had 15 state legislators here in Texas, that could be all you need to get some of these things done. If, if you had two US senators, that might change a lot of national politics because each side couldn’t just bludgeon the other and say, see their fault, their fault. It’s like, well, you actually have to work with someone to get something done.

[00:28:10] Andrew Yang: Um, so then you can lower the temperature. In an ideal world, Actually get rid of party primaries, install rank choice voting and, and nonpartisan primaries. And then that fictional connection that we’re all, uh, told exists would become real. And then the reasonable person in person would actually be reasonable when you stick a TV camera in their face.

[00:28:29] Andrew Yang: I mean, that is the, the only way out of this, hoping for a moral person to somehow reform the system from within this multi-billion dollar corrupt system is a waste of time. The only way out of it is to. Amend the structures and I just touched the table, which I was told not to do. And I’m sorry if that point of emphasis, but that’s right point.

[00:28:48] Andrew Yang: Right. That’s how fired up I am about fixing democracy and restoring the connection between people and our elected leaders.

[00:28:54] Christine Todd Whitman: And just remember in the last Congress the impact that one person Joe Manchin had had Yes. On major pieces of legislation. Yes. And that’s what bolsters the point that Andrew was making is you don’t have to have everybody.

[00:29:07] Christine Todd Whitman: You don’t have to have a hundred percent, you don’t even need 50%. If you have 10, 12, maybe 20%, you, you can really change

[00:29:14] Andrew Yang: the world and, and I wanna make this appeal really loud and clear to the people listening to this podcast. The people listening to this podcast are the thinkers. You’re hyper lucid, you know what I mean?

[00:29:22] Andrew Yang: You’re trying to take lessons from history and say, we’re, we’re going to work on these democratic problems. You are the people who have to look up and say, you know what? This tribalism, it’s not working so well. It makes me feel bad, makes me dislike people. I turn on social media and all I do is get saddened.

[00:29:37] Andrew Yang: I doom scroll and the rest of it, like maybe I need to wise up and get smart and realize that you’re being manipulated, you’re being turned against. Uh, other folks, you’re being told like, look, if you just. You know, like, vote, vote harder in a system where your vote doesn’t matter. Like that’s gonna do the trick.

[00:29:53] Andrew Yang: Like, I, I’m gonna suggest like that. That’s not very smart. Yeah. Like wise up. But that’s why you listen to this podcast for this, this message. That’s right. Why up

[00:30:01] Jeremi Suri: Stop being played. That’s right. We need you promoting the podcast there, Andrew. That’s great. But I guess, I guess to build on Zachary’s question, right?

[00:30:08] Jeremi Suri: I mean, do you really think, are you. On this mission because you care about civility or are you on this mission because you care about the issues that you think will be better served by

[00:30:21] Christine Todd Whitman: civility? For Link, I’m not because I care about democracy. I. I mean, that’s the bottom line. We are very close to losing our democracy, and that’s what I care about.

[00:30:31] Christine Todd Whitman: And that means bringing the system back to what our founding fathers, you go back in history. This is what our founding fathers warned us about. Sure. I mean, demagogues, Washington, Jefferson, they said, Watch out for parties cuz they will start to become more important than solving watch out for parties indeed than, than solving the problems.

[00:30:50] Christine Todd Whitman: And Franklin said, when asked what kind of a government they’d given us, he said, uh, a republic, if you can keep it, but you’re

[00:30:56] Andrew Yang: starting a

[00:30:57] Zachary Suri: party. I, I guess my question is just, I don’t understand it. For, I, I, I’m playing devil’s advocate here, but I don’t perfectly understand how a party that is, the anti-party.

[00:31:09] Zachary Suri: Can work, can govern, or can play a

[00:31:12] Andrew Yang: role in governance. Um, so I, I want to, uh, Answer, uh, Jeremy’s question about, um, Hey, are you about the issues? Um, so I ran for president because I was concerned about automation, ai, poverty. Um, one of the big supporters of the democracy reform space was concerned about climate change.

[00:31:31] Andrew Yang: And then she concluded, you know what? We’re never gonna get, make headway on climate change unless we reform our democratic structures. You know, who made the same conclusion? Al Gore. Uh, remember Marco Rubio? Championing immigration reform a number of years ago, and then recanting a week later. Why did he do that?

[00:31:46] Andrew Yang: Because the Republicans, uh, he worked with, went to him and said, Marco, what are you doing? We do something on immigration. We’re all gonna take a beating. We do nothing. We, we all win. We can still raise money. Get votes, get people angry. So you can just name your issue and put it in there and say, you know, why I’m for forward is because I care about that issue.

[00:32:07] Andrew Yang: Again, we have to wise up and say, look, the Democrats say I’m for this. I’m for that. Like they are unable to deliver on a lot of the things that they say they’re for. Because the system will not reward them for actually doing the thing. Um, and you know, the system will just reward them for like arguing, oh, we could only do the thing if we had the votes and just vote harder.

[00:32:27] Andrew Yang: And then we’ll do the thing. They will not do the thing. Now you can decide for yourself, uh, what the best path to is to resolving those issues. And there are different people who can have different thoughts about what, what they care about. But the, the point is that none of us are gonna get anything we care about done within the system unless what you want.

[00:32:45] Andrew Yang: Is for us to hate each other, then you’ll get that. But if you want any kind of positive resolution on any of the issues of the day, This is the path. This is the only path that will lead there.

[00:32:55] Christine Todd Whitman: Well, to your question too, about how a party, how can we be anti-party and creating a party, it’s a recognition that we are tribal people and you’ve got to give people something around which to gather.

[00:33:06] Christine Todd Whitman: And so, Parties may be not the answer, except that they’re kind of the only answer cuz even back Yeah, that’s right. Back in the day is Wig and Tory. Uh, I mean even though they didn’t like parties, they knew they were gonna be there. Their fear was not their, their hope was not to let parties Trump policy.

[00:33:24] Christine Todd Whitman: We’re at a place now where the. The policy is irrelevant. Mm-hmm. In fact, they don’t wanna solve the problems because they use them to excite their base. Mm-hmm. Both sides do it. Mm-hmm. Uh, and real people are getting hurt. Right. It was either in 2021, uh, 2001 or 2002, I can’t remember which year that the Bush administration, George w we sent up a, a bill on immigration that was a really balanced bill onto how to address this issue.

[00:33:50] Christine Todd Whitman: It never even got a hearing. Neither side wants to solve the problem because it is such a red meat problem for their, uh, For their base. Sure. And look at what’s happening to families being torn apart. Absolutely. It’s just tragic. Absolutely. And the hatred that’s now building up around it, cuz they’re using that as they’re all, you know, watch out immigrants are all rapists and murderers or drug traffickers.

[00:34:12] Christine Todd Whitman: Right. And, and, and it’s just snow snowballing out of control. And we have to get it back. And the way to get it back is to get reasonable people to have the opportunity to be heard. In an election and to, and the practical side of it is you have to be a party to get on the ballot. So you, if you’re gonna offer these changes and these opportunities, you have to have a party, which is what we’re trying to do in Texas by gathering 82,000 signatures that are needed on the ballot to become a recognized party.

[00:34:42] Christine Todd Whitman: The first part is done where? A sort of a party, a quasi party, but to get, to be a recognized party so we can run candidates on the forward right ballot, or as they say, uh, we’ll take Republicans, democrats, independents, and that’s happening in other states. Right? We have existing office holders who have switched.

[00:35:00] Christine Todd Whitman: Right. In Miami, a mayor who, who became, because we’re on the ballot in, in Florida, who became a, well, not in Miami, he was in Florida, um, who became. Forward, he just left the party. Mm-hmm. We had four state senators in, uh, Arizona who said, I’m a forward democrat. Right. They still caucus with the Democrats, but they are working to change the system.

[00:35:21] Christine Todd Whitman: Right.

[00:35:21] Jeremi Suri: So, so as I understand these really thoughtful and insightful answers, you’re not anti-party. You don’t like the way the two parties operate today, but like Jefferson, Who was skeptical of parties, you almost sounded like you were quoting him, skeptical of parties, but then built the first party.

[00:35:38] Jeremi Suri: Right? You’re saying that parties in this large country, this large pluralistic country, we need organizing ways of bringing people together. What then is to prevent your party, let’s say you succeed gloriously, what’s to prevent your party from responding to the same incentives as the other two parties and becoming the same thing?

[00:35:57] Jeremi Suri: I I, I

[00:35:58] Andrew Yang: cannot wait. And they’ll tell the corporate interest, decide to try and, uh, buy us, um, the, the way they, they’ve frankly bought the other two parties because that means that we would’ve won.

[00:36:10] Jeremi Suri: Well, you’ll, but then you’ll become

[00:36:12] Andrew Yang: the same thing. And, and then if we’ve successfully implemented non-partisan primaries, rank choice voting.

[00:36:18] Andrew Yang: Independent redistricting commissions Get Money Outta Politics by Overturning Citizens United. I’m gonna say something some people might disagree with, uh, in the party term limits. If we do all these things and like install an anti-corruption platform, and then the corporates come and say, Hey guys, like let, let’s buy you off, then we’ll be, you know that then hopefully we will have actually, Done a good enough job making it so that leaders have to respond to voters that will be able to resist that.

[00:36:46] Andrew Yang: But one of the, the things I’m gonna suggest is that right now we all know that the fix is in, uh, and, uh, people are getting more and more restive and frustrated and they’re being presented. Terrible leadership, terrible arguments being told, you know, why you’re so angry because of those people over there.

[00:37:03] Andrew Yang: Uh, and they’re gonna take that. Um, so we, we have a very limited number of ways out of this mess. And I’m not gonna say it’s, it’s gonna be easy, um, but it is the only path. You know, it’s like you look up and you say, you, you say like, I mean, is the answer gonna come from within this dysfunctional system, or is there gonna be a popular movement that comes up and says, let’s make it work for us again?

[00:37:22] Jeremi Suri: Zachary, what do you think?

[00:37:26] Zachary Suri: I, I think it’s a very compelling message. Um, I wonder though how you think that, uh, or. Why do you think that there isn’t a path, um, for systemic change, uh, working within the party system? I understand that there are all of these barriers, but I also think that what you’ve presented is a compelling political message, which I think a lot of voters in either of the two parties could see themselves.

[00:37:53] Zachary Suri: Um, when it comes to the systemic issues agreeing on, but then completely disagreeing when it comes to the. Uh, hard work of, of, of policymaking. How, why do you think that those systemic issues do not have a place, um, within one of the two parties

[00:38:08] Christine Todd Whitman: today? Well, Zachary, let me tell you, after I left the Bush administration, I wrote a book in 2005, calls my party too.

[00:38:16] Christine Todd Whitman: And I had started before that, uh, the Republican Leadership Council, a number of different efforts to try to change the party from within. And in the book I, the last chapter is a chime for radical moderates cuz I was so concerned about how far to the right. That the conservatives have taken us, I’ve been working on within the party for years, decades.

[00:38:37] Christine Todd Whitman: Yeah. And it just, it’s so blatantly apparent that the system works too well for them to ever, ever break it. They just, there’s no, there’s no incentive for it. They’ve got things exactly the way they want it now. They’ve got the seats they want maybe every once in a while. Who’s they? Who’s they? The party operatives, the people who are at the top of the parties of both parties, and there’s no incentive for a member of those parties to buck them because.

[00:39:03] Christine Todd Whitman: They won’t, they won’t get the kind of support they need to stay in power. And it now, it’s, it’s about power. It’s about holding that title. And as my husband used to say, a lot of them could never get jobs that pay as well on the outside. Um, you know, they just haven’t done enough.

[00:39:17] Andrew Yang: Well, I, I want to quote Ezra Klein who said, toxic systems compromise good individuals with ease, you know, uh, and, and so if we imagine, Zach, if I could just get one moral reasonable person into this office, then our issues will be resolved.

[00:39:34] Andrew Yang: It’s a fantasy that person’s gonna get in there. They’re going to be like a fly trapped in amber. Uh, and then we’re gonna turn on them too, right? In one or two cycles. Um, and that’s the message of Ezra’s book, why we’re polarized. I took it very much to heart. Because he’s right and more and more Americans are waking up to that reality.

[00:39:53] Andrew Yang: If this is a dispiriting reality, let let it be an encouraging path that we have identified a genuine path forward. If enough of us raise our hands and say, look, I get it. We’re being played. I refuse to be played anymore. The only game I’ll play is reforming our election system to see to it that every vote counts by having nonpartisan primaries and rank choice voting.

[00:40:13] Andrew Yang: And I would challenge folks to go to. Representatives in either party and say, Hey guys, what do you think about non-partisan primaries and ranked towards voting? And if someone’s for that, then all of a sudden we are pumped. Because if you had the same humans in office, but their incentives were all of a sudden aligned with our people, then the reason for everything me and the governor is doing like diminishes very, very significantly because you know, the fantasy would become real.

[00:40:36] Andrew Yang: Yeah. This fantasy that they have to listen to, 51% of us would actually be the reality. You,

[00:40:40] Jeremi Suri: you know, one of the things I find so impressive and compelling about what you’re doing is just what you articulated. You’re making the case for reform. Mm-hmm. And the historian in me says, every generation confronts this in a different way.

[00:40:52] Jeremi Suri: Systems run beyond the reality they were built to serve. Right. It’s what we call path dependence, right? So a system, the New Deal was created to serve the problems of the Great Depression and then outlasted the Great Depression. Right. Our national security state was built to serve the problems of the Cold War and far outlasted that, right?

[00:41:11] Jeremi Suri: And so every generation has to find its voice and find its avenue to reform. And I think you’re doing such a powerful and compelling job and articulate job of not only identifying the problem in a sense, that’s the easy part. But showing that there are pathways forward and that in the great Franklin Roosevelt tradition, he’s in many ways our patron saint for the podcast, right?

[00:41:32] Jeremi Suri: We have to experiment. We don’t know exactly what it’s gonna look like, but we have to experiment. So we always like to close.

[00:41:38] Andrew Yang: Uh, I just wanna share, uh, I’m Teddy Roosevelt’s, great granddaughter’s godfather. Um, anyway, random fact. That’s what’s

[00:41:46] Jeremi Suri: what I, I, okay. I was, I was afraid you were gonna say you were Teddy, that you’re channeling Teddy Roosevelt, that he’s come through you.

[00:41:53] Jeremi Suri: I thought that every now and then. I thought, no, I would hope so. I’d love that. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? Oh, that would be great. So, so we always like to close, uh, by trying to show how this learner discussion that we’re fortunate to have each week, and this has been one of our best discussions, how it can be something useful for listeners.

[00:42:10] Jeremi Suri: That they can do something. Uh, so what is your, what is your action point? And I know you’re gonna say get involved with the forward party, which is great, but, but beyond that, what is it that, what is it that listeners should do now?

[00:42:22] Andrew Yang: Um, try to recognize the tribalism, inaction when you’re subject to it.

[00:42:28] Andrew Yang: What you’re gonna notice is all the time, uh, you have social media companies and me and media networks that profit to the tune of billions of dollars off of the polarization, realize that it’s not, Doing anything good for you. It’s not doing anything good for the country, for you to be upset, extricate yourself from that system and then go to forward party.com, click on your state and get involved because we need you.

[00:42:50] Andrew Yang: We need young people. I’m assuming it’s young people listening to this, whatever. Well, we need young people to step up and say, I get it. Enough is enough. And I want a democracy that lives up to its name.

[00:43:00] Christine Todd Whitman: I want people to take away from this, that there is a path forward and there is hope. Uh, but it’s gonna take all of us.

[00:43:06] Christine Todd Whitman: We can’t sit back and assume somebody else will do it. And that’s what we’ve done for too long. Yeah. And around many issues, I know where the people who want to see change argue with themselves. Right. Or their spouse or their car, radio, but they don’t get in touch with the people who are making the decisions.

[00:43:22] Christine Todd Whitman: Yeah. And what we now have to do now is take. Ensure that the people who are making the decisions are listening to their constituents, right. Rather than, than to the parties. And it is go to forward party.com. Yeah. Yeah. And, and if you’ve heard anything on this podcast that you like about it, if it interests you, talk to others.

[00:43:39] Christine Todd Whitman: Yeah. Because everyone who’s listening to this is an influencer, right? Uh, they have people who they know, who know them, who respect them. And the old adage, all politics is local, is very true. Yeah. And if people hear about something like forward from someone they respect and know, they’ll say, oh, okay. And when they start to realize, as Andrew says, that we’ve been being had for quite a while now.

[00:44:01] Christine Todd Whitman: Mm-hmm. Um, they’re gonna say, I’m sick of it and I’m really happy to turn the light on something different.

[00:44:07] Jeremi Suri: Yeah. And, and, and, and are living this, I mean, you, you are doing this. You don’t have to do this. And you’re, no, you’re doing this yourself. You’re, you’re, you’re living as Zachary does, does this turn the light on for you?

[00:44:17] Jeremi Suri: We’re gonna give you the last word. I

[00:44:19] Zachary Suri: think it’s very compelling and, and, and I, I am certainly more convinced than I was when I, when I began this conversation with you all. But I do wonder, um, also, and, and this maybe is a question which is not, not where I’m supposed to go with this, but is there also a space I think, um, Or reality at least that, that that system, that our system is always going to be imperfect, that we work within an imperfect system, and that while we might.

[00:44:50] Zachary Suri: Feel the need for reform acutely and work towards reform that there is also a very important place in our democracy for people who are trying to make real policy now. And how do we prevent this from becoming a, a discussion that takes away. From where the real policy making has to be done. You mean

[00:45:09] Jeremi Suri: like the person you work for, like you work for right now a member of, of the German parliament, but nonetheless, yes.

[00:45:15] Zachary Suri: On urgent issues that can’t wait five years for us to

[00:45:18] Andrew Yang: reform the system. I, I would definitely say they’re, they’re all perfectly valid and the governor and I are friends with people who are in positions who are trying to do great things every day, and they’re still our friends and we love them. Uh, and you know, and simultaneously we, we can work, uh, on.

[00:45:33] Andrew Yang: Solving some of our root problems. But Zach, you said, Hey, can we accept? I mean, I would happily accept imperfect, uh, I would accept functional, you know what I mean? You know, I’m not looking for perfection here. I’m just looking for something that’ll survive in the next number of years. You want the engine

[00:45:49] Jeremi Suri: to work a little bit?

[00:45:50] Christine Todd Whitman: Yeah. I mean, Most people, the majority of people who go into public service really wanna make a difference. They just get subsumed by the system. And what we need to do is have their backs. And we can do that now, uh, before we have forward party candidates. We can still say to the ones that are trying to make a difference, we’re there for you.

[00:46:12] Christine Todd Whitman: Uh, but you might wanna consider to put forward by in your name, but you can stay a Democrat. You can stay a Republican. Sure, sure. But you just need to understand that this is what the public wants. It’s what you really wanted when you first came in. Cuz if you talk to a lot of those who are incumbents, they’ll sit, they’re frustrated too.

[00:46:27] Christine Todd Whitman: Sure. But they don’t dare speak out because of the consequences. Sure. And as the conundrum for politicians is always, um, I wanna make a difference, but I can’t make a difference if I lose my job because then I’m out. I’m not in that position of power. But if I speak out on the issues that I want to, that’s what’s gonna happen to me.

[00:46:46] Christine Todd Whitman: Sure. So, What is the right way to do it? And we’re trying to provide that kind of cover and that ability and, and yes, you know what, you’re right, Zachary. It’s gonna be imperfect. We’re, we’re humans. Humans are imperfect. Our democracy is imperfect. Our country is a wonderful country. I love it to death, but it hasn’t always been pretty our, our history, uh, we’ve done some pretty.

[00:47:10] Christine Todd Whitman: Uncomfortable things if we look at our history the way we should, of course, of course. But that doesn’t lessen my love for it or, or my support of our democracy.

[00:47:19] Jeremi Suri: I, I, I think this conversation has really brought out not only the urgency of the issue and the, the thoughtful ways in which we can move forward beyond the simple yelling at our car radios.

[00:47:30] Jeremi Suri: I love that image. Uh, but it’s also brought out how important, uh, history is for this, how empowering history is. Because what we can see, and this is the theme of our podcast, of course, every week, is that, uh, we’re in a difficult moment. And we’ve been in difficult moments before as a society, and in those moments, reformers have stepped up and pushed on the institutions to change them.

[00:47:50] Jeremi Suri: We’ve talked a lot about the founders here. One of the central principles of our system is that our constitution, our structure has enduring values, but ever-changing forms, ever-changing forms our founders could never imagine. The country. They can never imagine us being Americans today. Those of us sitting around this table doing this podcast, our system is always evolving and it takes reformers to push and pull and, uh, I, I am, uh, so grateful for the work that you’re doing, uh, governor Whitman and Andrew Yang and for joining us and for sharing this, uh, with our audience.

[00:48:24] Jeremi Suri: I hope all of our listeners will think about these issues more deeply as a consequence. Thank you for the opportunity. Our, our pleasure. Thank you also, uh, Zachary for your, uh, inspiring poem as well. Uh, this was one of your best, I think. Uh, and every week you do, you outdo yourself from the week before.

[00:48:41] Jeremi Suri: And thank you, most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.

[00:48:53] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.