This is Democracy: Episode 238 – City Leadership

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:22] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

[00:00:29] Jeremi Suri: This week we’re going to talk about city leadership. Cities have always been one of the core actors in our democracy. In some ways, they are the legs on which our democratic edifice stands, and now more Americans live in cities than any other. Form of, um, municipal existence in our society. Uh, cities are crucial to our democracy and we’re today joined by the recent mayor of Austin, Texas, which is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, one of the most dynamic cities in the country.

[00:01:02] Jeremi Suri: A mayor who has seen the good, the bad, and the ugly over the last few years, and, uh, has, uh, generously agreed to talk to us about how democracy works at the city level. This is none other than Steve Adler, who was the. Mayor of Austin, Texas from 2015 to 2023, the Mayor of Austin, Texas from 2015 to 2023.

[00:01:22] Jeremi Suri: Steve, thank you for joining us today, Jeremy.

[00:01:25] Steve Adler: It’s great to be with you. Thanks for the

[00:01:27] Jeremi Suri: invite. Before he was mayor of Austin, Texas. Uh, Steve Adler was a prominent lawyer working in the areas of eminent domain law and civil rights law in Texas. Uh, he also served on many important public service boards, so he has a great deal of experience, uh, in the public space as well as in the legal space.

[00:01:47] Jeremi Suri: He was, uh, on the board of the Anti-Defamation League. Uh, we’ve had representatives from the Anti-Defamation League on our podcast before. One of the most important organizations, uh, combating hate in our system. Society. He also serves, Steve did on the, uh, board of the Texas Tribune, which is one of the most important news organizations covering state news in the country.

[00:02:07] Jeremi Suri: Throughout his career, uh, Steve Adler has been widely recognized both at the city level in legal circles and public service circles for his innovative ideas, his leadership, and his hard work. And I also just have to say that, uh, he’s someone who takes ideas in democracy seriously. He certainly proved that as mayor of Austin and, uh, We’ll learn a lot from, from our discussion with him today.

[00:02:31] Jeremi Suri: Uh, before we turn to that discussion, we have of course, uh, Mr. Zachary’s scene setting poem. What’s the title of your poem today, Zachary? The

[00:02:39] Zachary Suri: title is for My City as it was three years ago.

[00:02:43] Jeremi Suri: Let’s hear it. The silence

[00:02:45] Zachary Suri: streets awake to find a town still waiting to reclaim its silenced heart to rouse and seize again, its violet crown and to begin again, its thousand starts here where it all begins and nothing dies.

[00:03:02] Zachary Suri: The music’s ended yet. We dance in place. The nurses count the dead. Tired size still. Hope does seem to blossom on your face. Old city where I’ve danced away the years. This must be one more of your new rebirths. Another striving through new sets of fears, another excess to redeem the dearths. But you should know that it’s okay to cry.

[00:03:29] Zachary Suri: Much better in fact. Than just rushing by.

[00:03:34] Jeremi Suri: I like that a lot. You capture the spirit of city. Zachary, what is your poem about?

[00:03:38] Zachary Suri: My poem is about, uh, trying to, uh, come to terms with the experience of, of living in, in a big city like Austin, uh, such a dynamic city, um, as it was, uh, silenced and, and made still by, by the pandemic, uh, three years ago.

[00:03:52] Zachary Suri: And, and a stillness that lasted for many years. Uh, and, and one that was marked by tragedy in many ways. Um, and, and trying to come to terms with, with, with that reality, uh, and that experience that we’ve all had, but also the ways in which we, I think, as a city have tried to rush past that and, and maybe have not taken the, the necessary time to reflect on that moment and, and, and what

[00:04:15] Jeremi Suri: we lost.

[00:04:16] Jeremi Suri: Sure, sure. I think that’s well said. And, and everyone has their, their own trauma from that period. Uh, Steve, your, your reaction to that

[00:04:23] Steve Adler: poem? Well, I, one, I love this poem is I love the body of, uh, Zach’s work. Uh, you know, the other thing that I thought came through for that was their recognition that, that we live in a city, uh, where of course everyone loves Austin that lives there mostly, and they love mostly.

[00:04:43] Steve Adler: The, the first day they got here. So everyone’s always lamenting the fact that Austin’s not what it was when they did, but I thought that it’s actually really captured the fact that this is a city that’s gone through a thousand starts. Yeah. Uh, and, and it really says something when. One is growing so much, but everybody who comes here thinks that this is now the, the, the best time in this city.

[00:05:08] Steve Adler: And, and I think that’s, that’s true. There’s something in the water or the air that gives us a culture view that’s different, uh, and that has remained consistent. Even through the last several years, and we’ll continue forward, I hope, and maintain our magic.

[00:05:26] Jeremi Suri: Right. And, and it’s so well said, Steve. Uh, you came to Austin, um, many years ago, uh, from the East coast and, uh, you, you did not run for mayor to try to take Austin back to your first day.

[00:05:39] Jeremi Suri: Right. Wh why did you run for mayor in 2014?

[00:05:43] Steve Adler: Well, you know, I ran for, for mayor in, in, in part that, uh, um, The people that we were trying to encourage to run for mayor all said no. It’s funny how that happens. We 30 days before we, we announced we had never, Diana and I had never even talked about running for mayor.

[00:06:02] Steve Adler: Uh, but you recall at that time the city was moving from an at-large council. Which is where we had been historically to one with district representation. The council was doubling in size, virtually all, if not all of the council members would be new. Uh, there was such a, a, a white board, a, a clean slate, an opportunity to create new culture.

[00:06:29] Steve Adler: Uh, we just wanted the city to really maximize that opportunity. We went out and recruited a group of us people that might. Have made for great mayors and there were several and they all said no. So eventually we kind of locked ourselves in a room and said, somebody has to stop what they’re doing and go do this.

[00:06:47] Steve Adler: And Diane and I drew the, the short straw. You

[00:06:53] Jeremi Suri: led

[00:06:53] Zachary Suri: the city,

[00:06:54] Steve Adler: um,

[00:06:54] Zachary Suri: through some, some very, uh, interesting times to say the least. Uh, what do you think was, was the biggest challenge in that, uh, almost decade that you, that you lived the city?

[00:07:05] Steve Adler: Boy, I tell you, we dealt with a lot of challenges, and I think not only in this city, but in cities across the country, there was so much, um, um, there were so many crises, uh, and, and challenges.

[00:07:19] Steve Adler: Uh, but I, I think probably if you had to pick one, it would have to be covid. Uh, because that really took, you know, over two years of, of my two. Uh, four year terms. I was the one that threatened the most lies, was the most disruptive. Um, but you know, in, in Austin, we were able to achieve a mortality rate that was less than half of the state’s mortality rate, generally less than half of the country’s mortality rate.

[00:07:48] Steve Adler: If, if the state of Texas had the same mortality rate during Covid as the city of Austin, almost 50,000 Texans would still be alive. Uh, so that I think was our, our, our biggest, um, biggest challenge.

[00:08:05] Jeremi Suri: A And how did you deal with that, Steve? What was it like on a day-to-day basis, if you can describe that for us to, to be mayor, I, I think a lot of us experienced covid in very personal and private ways.

[00:08:17] Jeremi Suri: You had a great deal of public responsibility.

[00:08:21] Steve Adler: Yeah. You know, Diane and I were just talking about that, the, the, the other day, and that a lot of the experiences that people had during Covid, uh, we missed, um, you know, we were not the, the, the frontline workers, uh, the construction workers are having to deal with, uh, the risks, uh, and, and, and the enormous number of deaths in, in our, you know, our.

[00:08:45] Steve Adler: Family. Uh, we also, uh, you know, we’re not among that large group of folks that were able to have huge amounts of time to be able to binge watch. Uh, Netflix. Uh, so we, we missed out on that too. The, the, the job for, for me was pretty much, uh, you know, seven in the morning till 10 or 11 at night for, for, for over a year.

[00:09:10] Steve Adler: Um, there were so many unknowns, uh, when it started. Uh, we were, you know, cutting new ground when we closed down south by. Uh, it was the first significant closing like that in a community back in the, the first few days of March of, of 2020. Uh, it was, it was, you know, an opportunity to really live. The, the cultural values of, uh, engagement, uh, in, in creating a, a broad tent because everybody was trying to figure this out to, to be able to bring people together, to, to plan and, and work together.

[00:09:51] Steve Adler: It, it meant we really had to live the, the cultural values of transparency. Uh, to get information out, uh, as quickly as we had it, as accurately as we could because one, everybody was, you know, living with such great uncertainties. Uh, but also some of our best ideas were coming from places that we could never have anticipated.

[00:10:15] Steve Adler: Uh, it obviously was incredibly disruptive and, and changed lives and has continued those changes. Persist. Today. Uh, but for, for me in the city, uh, there were such a, a large team, uh, that frankly, uh, from the time that Bell went off, really didn’t get, uh, a day or, or a moment off for a, for a really long period of time.

[00:10:42] Zachary Suri: You were also mayor during a period of, of great political turmoil, um, in, in our national politics and in our state politics and, and certainly in our city politics as well. But could you describe maybe for, for our listeners who don’t necessarily follow Austin City politics or, or their own city’s politics, uh, very closely what it was like, uh, to be engaged in political discussions at, at such a local level while these, uh, these, uh, Larger political, uh, fights and, and political, uh, issues were, were playing out nationwide.

[00:11:14] Steve Adler: You know, that’s, that’s a both a good question and observation. Not really. Um, Because this was, uh, a unique period where the, the, the, the challenges being presented with such immediacy, uh, were so, were so great and, and so many of those challenges dovetailed with what? Were the growing, uh, political partisan wedge issues.

[00:11:43] Steve Adler: You know, we, we were dealing with covid and, and whether or not to take vaccines suddenly became an incredibly political issue, uh, wearing masks, incredibly political issue, even in a society that required vaccines for, for most children when they’re starting school. Um, the George Floyd Summer. Uh, of Unrests, uh, became the question of how to, the best deal with public safety became, again, a very, very political and partisan issue.

[00:12:15] Steve Adler: And it made leading and, and, and communities moving forward very, very difficult because everything was immediately reduced to a, to a, to a partisan place. And when you’re trying to, to really foster. Meaningful, important conversations about what communities do to, to best protect themselves and protect a quality of life and maximize everyone’s potential to have almost every conversation quickly devolve into something that is really designed to raise money, uh, for, uh, political, uh, uh, events, uh, to, to organize people political, uh, Uh, or organizing.

[00:13:02] Steve Adler: It makes having the conversations that a community needs to have very difficult, uh, and, and that’s what I remember most about. Those moments is that you almost want to just turn down the volume and pull, you know, a million people into a room and say, okay, all this stuff’s going out, going on outside. I know it’s happening, but, but we actually have to get together to talk through these issues and.

[00:13:29] Steve Adler: They’re not easy and there’s not a lot of precedent, and, and everyone in this room is coming here with good faith intending to, to, to help one another cause we are a community, just a group of neighborhoods. But those conversations very, very difficult to engage in given the, the politics and the partisanship that enveloped us.

[00:13:53] Jeremi Suri: So you were Mayor Steve during the later years of the Obama administration and the first term of the, uh, the only term of the Trump presidency. And without getting into the differences in the two presidents, Politics. Uh, and maybe it’s hard not to get into this. Can you describe the, the, the ways in which the city interacted with the federal government in one administration versus the other?

[00:14:22] Jeremi Suri: Was there a difference in the operations and in the nature of cooperation from one administration

[00:14:29] Steve Adler: to another? Very much so. Uh, and, and I, and I’ll try to do this without reflecting on any policies, uh, but just the, the, the dynamics of the operations, uh, in, uh, president Obama’s administration. Uh, the, the cities, uh, were being supported at.

[00:14:50] Steve Adler: At every turn, this would be Blue Cities, red Cities, the Intergovernment Relations Office, and the White House was, uh, actively involved in helping cities deal with the challenges that, that they were identifying as the, the, the most serious, uh, for them poverty, education issues, housing issues, uh, transportation, uh, issues.

[00:15:17] Steve Adler: Um, I would say that from where I sat, um, the, the administration was, was a constant value add, helping to facilitate what the local community here were trying to, to get done and deal with. Very different than the next administration and President Trump’s administration. Um, there was less effort to try to empower.

[00:15:47] Steve Adler: Uh, cities. In fact, there almost seemed to be a, a, a war against cities that developed very quickly, uh, over, um, uh, initially probably over, over immigration and then refugee, uh, issues. Uh, and we were no longer getting the kind of the value add support that we had actually, uh, become used to, to getting, um, And there was a lot less contact.

[00:16:18] Steve Adler: A lot. Hmm. Were people that seemed to be working in the administration to bring support. I remember very early in, in President Trump’s term, uh, going to Washington to speak with our Attorney General, along with a handful of other mayors around the country, uh, because we were dealing with threats to cut off aid to cities that were designated, uh, as, as, as.

[00:16:45] Steve Adler: Safe places for, for refugees to sanctuaries,

[00:16:49] Jeremi Suri: I think. Correct. That’s

[00:16:49] Steve Adler: right. Sanctuary cities with an ill-defined term, um, in cities that, you know, were not trying and were not breaking any federal laws. Uh, we were immediately put on the defensive and suddenly found ourselves dealing with questions that suddenly had national.

[00:17:13] Steve Adler: Intrigue as opposed to being able to deal with the, uh, affordability and transportation issues that, uh, our community wanted local government, most local communities wanted their governments to be, to be working on. It was a very stark difference, I believe, in the support that that cities got, but also just the perception of, of cities.

[00:17:39] Steve Adler: Why do

[00:17:40] Jeremi Suri: you think there is such hostility in some parts of our country and in one party in particular toward cities? Again, you know, back to where we started, so many of the most dynamic places in the United States and in the world are cities. So many of the most productive, interesting people of all political and ethnic varieties are in cities.

[00:18:02] Jeremi Suri: Why such hostility?

[00:18:06] Steve Adler: You know, I, I agree with you, uh, Jeremy. You know, I, I’m, you know, I’m a, I’m a lover of, of cities. Um, You know, regardless of of political persuasion, I just think that cities are the real incubators of innovation in our country. They’re the real engine rooms of economic development. These, these things happen at a local level and being able to use cities to test new ideas that, you know, if they can work, they can be brought.

[00:18:34] Steve Adler: To, to other cities around the country or even to national governance, I think is an incredibly important role for, for cities. Uh, but at some point, uh, cities became the kind of the, the, the enemy. I remember our lieutenant Governor. Uh, Texas Lieutenant Governor on a new show at one point, um, was celebrating the number of state houses that had gone to the Republican party, uh, both governors and, and legislators.

[00:19:06] Steve Adler: And he made the comment that, that the only thing wrong. And the country today were, uh, democratic mayors and city councils. Um, and, and, and that sense of hostility I think was, was very real. I’m not sure Jeremy, why that happened. I do know notice, as I’m sure everyone does, the, the difference between the way rural areas are voting in this country versus the way, uh, urban areas are voting.

[00:19:38] Steve Adler: Okay. Uh, and, and, um, you know, the divide seems to be almost less generational and more geographical. Um, I know that, that in our community and the Austin area used to be Austin is the city against most of the surrounding more rural areas. But now as the city’s growing, as those cities are growing, then we have more in common.

[00:20:05] Steve Adler: Um, you know, that that divide in our community, at least locally is, is, is, is disappearing, but at the national level, in the state level in Texas, I think it’s, I think it’s political. Uh, I think it’s, uh, continuation of the rural urban split. As you

[00:20:25] Zachary Suri: hinted at, I, I think, uh, cities are in some ways the, the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to, to federalism.

[00:20:32] Zachary Suri: Uh, what do you think is the role of, of a city, uh, and particularly the, the, the city mayor, uh, in, in, in our broader democratic, uh, discourse?

[00:20:42] Steve Adler: Well, you know, I, you know, I, I wouldn’t put us at the bottom of the totem pole.

[00:20:51] Steve Adler: Uh, you know, I, again, you know, I think that when you look at, uh, where real innovation is coming from, uh, it it’s coming from, from small businesses and small companies, from people that have really good ideas, uh, that are being able to, to really grow them, uh, in the, in the. Uh, laboratory that are, that are cities.

[00:21:16] Steve Adler: So much of the, of the real economic engines, the economic development engines, the, the job creation are happening in our, in our, in our cities. Uh, so I think that, that cities are real important and, you know, city leadership. Is the leadership that is closest to the people. Um, you know, I, I, I don’t go out of town as mayor to serve.

[00:21:42] Steve Adler: I, I, I go, I go downtown. I run into my constituents all the time in the grocery store, and no one is afraid to, to come up to me to talk about a pothole. Or a parking problem that they, they tell you what they think, right? They tell you what they think immediately. And not only that, but I think at the local level, people actually expect local government to, to.

[00:22:05] Steve Adler: To do work to get things done. I think we’ve gotten to the place at some level where we kinda look at our federal government and, and our state government in many states, and we just, you know, we, we just don’t expect anything beyond, uh, the gridlock and, uh, partisan, um, um, bickering that that goes on, but, Not at the city level.

[00:22:26] Steve Adler: At the city level. People recognize that impacts their lives on a daily basis and they expect, you know, the water to run and the power to come on, and they expect for things to happen. You know, I think that being Mayor of cities is the best job in the world. Uh, it is the ability to be able to impact people’s lives at scale in a very, uh, immediate, uh, and, and, and tangible way.

[00:22:56] Steve Adler: There are different kinds of mayors in different cities around the country, uh, because personalities are different, but even beyond that, just the, the. The, the, the position itself differs around the country. Uh, some mayors, uh, are the chief executive officers of their cities, uh, and have great power toto to wield.

[00:23:21] Steve Adler: Um, and you see those mayors doing great work in, in, in many of our cities. Uh, the mayor is, is less the CEO and more the, the chairman of the board and the council’s kind of like a policy board. And there’s a professional manager who comes in as the chief operating officer or the chief executive, uh, officer.

[00:23:44] Steve Adler: But even in those governments, which is the former government we have in Austin, the mayor has some pretty. Special powers, uh, the power to be able to convene. Uh, as mayor, I could convene a group of people, call ’em up and say, Hey, come and talk about this, this challenge. And usually when the mayor, uh, would call people would, would come so I could get people together that might not be otherwise.

[00:24:11] Steve Adler: Meeting and talking to to one another, that’s an incredibly important power. Mayor has the, the, the power to, to, to, um, uh, use the, the, the, the bully pulpit. Because whether or not I was the chief executive officer of the city, or not my, many of my constituents, or not, most of my constituents thought that I was right.

[00:24:37] Steve Adler: And that comes with both, you know, being held accountable for things you’re not responsible for. But it also gives you the ability to really use the bully pulpit, to talk to the community, to engage with the community, and to be able to, to provide direction. Uh, to a community. And finally, uh, as mayor, I’m able to command media attention, which corresponds, I guess to that second point.

[00:25:02] Steve Adler: But, you know, unlike even my colleague council members, if, if I wanted to, to say something and have the, the, the journalists there and the TV cameras and the radio microphones, Uh, I could, I could command that media attention, and that was also a real considerable power.

[00:25:21] Jeremi Suri: One of the topics we’ve talked about, uh, a number of times on our podcast, Steve, uh, is the history of cities and the role that they played, particularly in the progressive era just a hundred years ago.

[00:25:32] Jeremi Suri: In actually being the laboratories for policy innovation. You, you talked about cities as incubators of innovation. Most people think of that in the context now of technology, uh, and medicine perhaps. Uh, but in the early 20th century, it was cities that invented many of the forms of social insurance. Many of the, um, Worker safety laws, many of the educational functions we see, uh, the public high school was invented in American cities, for example.

[00:26:00] Jeremi Suri: Uh, do you see cities playing that role today in, in a moment when our policy world seems so stalemated, as you said, do you see cities as, as a route to policy innovation?

[00:26:12] Steve Adler: Absolutely. Uh, and I think it’s still happening. You know, it, it might be harder, uh, as, uh, too many of the state and um, uh, federal leaders would kind of engage in this war against cities.

[00:26:29] Steve Adler: I do think you still see that. You see the, the social service, uh, organizations that are out on the street, uh, building new. Ways to, to, to help people. Um, you, you see that in, in the way transportation projects are, are, uh, uh, accomplished in the, you see it in the smart city technologies, uh, that are being, that are being, uh, uh, implemented.

[00:26:59] Steve Adler: You know, the, it’s, it’s interesting. I, I had the, the great honor and, and opportunity to, to really get to know mayors from across the country. Uh, and we were talking to each other all the time. You know, on my speed dial I’d have this group of 20 mayors and another one that group of 20 mayors, and we’re constantly sharing and, and quite frankly stealing from from one another.

[00:27:27] Steve Adler: Anything that that works. But we were all invested in each other’s success, uh, because quite frankly, our success in part depended on. Some other city figuring something else out that then I could steal and do in, in, in Austin. Uh, and not just nationally. Uh, you know, I was able to develop along with, you know, uh, many of my colleagues around the country, real significant relationships with cities internationally.

[00:27:56] Steve Adler: Uh, so, you know, in, in, in some respects, as I watch what’s happening on the world stage, you know, I wonder if. Even though there’s great effort to, to reduce the power and, and scope and range of, of cities within our country, I wonder if cities internationally are in their ascendancy, uh, as cities can communicate and, and cooperate with one another, uh, without regard to nation states.

[00:28:29] Steve Adler: Um, and I think that’s a, that’s a good thing.

[00:28:32] Jeremi Suri: And, and just following on that excellent point, Steve, did you think of your time as mayor as being a global figure or a national figure?

[00:28:43] Steve Adler: You know, first and foremost as a local figure, Uh, cuz I think that’s inherent in, in local levels of, of, of government. But beyond that, I, I did see, uh, myself as a, as a national and global player, I’m not sure one of them any more than the, than the other.

[00:29:03] Steve Adler: Uh, but I was involved, you know, And the decisions I made, I, you know, it’s very rare for, for anybody to be making a decision as a mayor that some other city hasn’t already dealt with. Uh, if not exactly, then, then, then similarly, there’s so many lessons to be learned by people that had experiences and, and you know, you don’t want.

[00:29:26] Steve Adler: Cities to have to make the same mistake twice. And I could learn from other people. I wanted to, but there are great organizations that would bring bears to together. Uh, in addition to just seeking each other out. And on the international level, the, the involvement in organizations like C 40 and the Climate Change Cities, the ability to participate at the, at the cop meetings on climate change and be with mayors.

[00:29:52] Steve Adler: You know, when I went. I think it was 2016 when the Paris Accords were signed. Uh, and I went to that meeting, uh, in Paris. And of course everyone knows the, the, the, the, the treaties that were signed by the native states, 160 of them or something, uh, to, to really make the first big international play for climate change mitigation, uh, half of what the nation states agreed to do.

[00:30:21] Steve Adler: Was work that had to be done at the local level, right? The city level or the county level, or the regional level. Half of it had to be done, done, done locally. And at that meeting in Paris, there was the largest collection of mayors gathered in one place, I think, in the history of the world. Wow. Um, there were almost 800 mayors, uh, from around the world gathered together, and we signed our own compact, uh, there.

[00:30:49] Steve Adler: So, so, I think that in a city like Austin, which is cutting edge and innovative and, and creative and, and, and artistic, and entrepreneurial, uh, I really believe that, that our city has a responsibility to help provide that, that national and uh, international

[00:31:14] Jeremi Suri: leadership. It’s so important you say that because so many, uh, young people who are interested in helping and furthering the process of democratic change, uh, in our society and elsewhere, they tend to think at the state level, they think about international organizations.

[00:31:32] Jeremi Suri: Um, they think at the national level they often. Don’t think about cities as key actors and, and I think you’re reminding us that perhaps on some of the issues that matter most to many people, environmental issues, issues of inequality, cities might be ground zero for where change has

[00:31:48] Steve Adler: to occur. I think that’s real true and I incidentally you talk about your students.

[00:31:53] Steve Adler: I remember being in law school and, and the value I put on a federal court district court, right. Holy versus a local state court Right. Night and day. Absolutely. Um, and that was not real. That was something that I. That was a bias I came in

[00:32:09] Jeremi Suri: with. I think it’s still a bias that law students have. I think everyone wants the federal clerkships, right?

[00:32:14] Jeremi Suri: Because they’re more prestigious. Uh, but many of the key issues as, as you point out, Steve might be decided in the municipal and state courts, uh, right, right

[00:32:23] Steve Adler: now, in fact, if you’re looking to have an immediate impact on the quality of life for people and, uh, you know, people’s. Daily lives. No place to go other than, than local

[00:32:37] Jeremi Suri: governance.

[00:32:37] Jeremi Suri: Well, and shout out to all of those hardworking, um, mostly nonpartisan judges in those, in those roles. Steve, we always like to close, uh, with, uh, an effort to. Take this, uh, historical reflection that we’ve been able to share and to, to learn from you with, uh, and, and really apply it to our society as we go forward.

[00:33:00] Jeremi Suri: Uh, what are the lessons, and I’m sure there are many of them, so maybe give us a few of the most important lessons that young people who are listening should take from your experiences as they think about their own careers in cities. Hopefully as mayors and city council people, and even just as citizens in cities, what are some of the lessons they should take?

[00:33:21] Steve Adler: Well, you know, I think that even in the conversation that we’ve had the last 30 minutes, you know, we, we’ve. And we, we’ve really, uh, highlighted the fact that, uh, cities are special creations. Uh, and because they are so close to, to people, uh, it’s, uh, it’s the level of governance and functionality that, that communities feel like they can most impact.

[00:33:49] Steve Adler: Uh, and I think that’s the reason why. Uh, cities because of that kind of democratization that happens at that level as opposed to higher levels. It really is where we’re. The quality of people’s lives is determined. So I would urge, um, more folks to, to really get involved in their local communities where they can have a real impact.

[00:34:13] Steve Adler: I would say that being mayor was the most fulfilling, meaningful, affirming, uh, experience, uh, I have ever had, and I hear that from virtually every one of my colleagues. Mayors, um, and I, and I would urge people to, to really consider running for, for local office or for mayor. Uh, cuz I think that, that it, it’s such a wonderful experience.

[00:34:40] Steve Adler: Substantively, uh, you know, I, I learned a lot about change in the dynamics of change, uh, in, in being mayor in a way that I probably hadn’t really. Thought about before, uh, there’s always the push for short term change to, to be able to respond most quickly to to, to constituents. Sometimes that’s good if there’s a, a fire, you know, in the, in the building.

[00:35:07] Steve Adler: But, but oftentimes the short term solution, like the, the short term, you know, Pursuit of dividends for companies rather than long term growth of profitability is, is real. Uh, and it’s hard in, uh, in, in the elective office to really focus on, uh, the things that can happen that will. Really substantially, uh, impact people’s lives over time.

[00:35:34] Steve Adler: The, the change dynamic of disruptive leadership versus incremental leadership, we’ve all heard that change happens at the speed of, at the speed of trust. Uh, and lots of books, uh, written on the, the importance of building coalitions and moving slowly, uh, and all that is true. But I would also balance that with the fact that if you really want to have an impact and change things that have been institutionalized, uh, that sometimes it’s gonna require disruptive change, disruptive.

[00:36:07] Steve Adler: Leadership, uh, just like we see in terms of changing, uh, the business models and, and, and economies today, but in government as well. Uh, we’re going to need disruptive leadership and change. I had hoped that the George Floyd Summer was going to give us that for, for racial justice issues, uh, but not enough disruptive follow up.

[00:36:30] Steve Adler: Uh, happened, uh, but here in Austin we went through all the disruption of, of homelessness and, and while we’ve still left scars for that, we’ve, we’ve actually raised almost a half a billion dollars. And now Austin, I think may be one of the first cities in the country to actually end homelessness if we can carry through, uh, scale is important.

[00:36:52] Steve Adler: You know, my, my experience has been that, uh, people will support. Change if they think it’s. Big enough or new enough or meaningful enough to actually change things. Uh, that, that, that sometimes there’s frustration with the government and the safety of, of, of, of going small, um, and often perceived as being less risk.

[00:37:18] Steve Adler: I, I think that our experience in Austin over the last eight years is we, were infinitely more successful in building coalitions and getting things done when we. When we went big. Right. And engaged people’s

[00:37:30] Jeremi Suri: imaginations. Right. I think that’s true. I think as a historian observing this, I think that’s right.

[00:37:35] Jeremi Suri: When you’re visionary and uh, you reach out to the most people with a compelling vision, I think you can get the most done. I think that’s absolutely right. Zachary, I wanted to turn to you as, as we close here, um, you’ve been listening to what, um, Steve has said, and you’ve also watched him as, as mayor, and you’ve watched your mom on the city council also.

[00:37:56] Jeremi Suri: Uh, does your experience watching city governance in action, watching democracy at the city level, does it make you and other, uh, individuals of your generation, does it make you more excited about what cities can be? Or is it actually more of a cautionary tale? I,

[00:38:12] Zachary Suri: I think it makes us all excited because I think in some ways cities are the, the, the, the, the best exemplar of, of, of American pluralism and, and how competing interests, uh, and, and people’s very personal, uh, and often mundane, uh, Problems and crises, uh, from the power being out to the, to the, to the streets not being paved.

[00:38:33] Zachary Suri: Uh, how, how that, how, how, how people coming together around those kinds of small issues can actually have a broader impact on a community and also can fit into a broader vision, uh, of what a community should be. And I think that that offers a space for, for young people who are dissatisfied with the, the hateful nature of, of, of national politics.

[00:38:54] Zachary Suri: Not, not that local politics aren’t bitter, um, but that. I think people are invested in a way that they often don’t realize until something

[00:39:00] Jeremi Suri: goes wrong. So you remain optimistic, Zachary? Yes. Even, even seeing people say nasty things about your mom and about Steve. Yes. And Steve, you’re optimistic.

[00:39:10] Steve Adler: You know, uh, I’m, I’m.

[00:39:13] Steve Adler: I’m optimistic on all the measures that we talked about, and I’m sure you’ll have another show where you talk about this information and the growing Sure. And loss of faith in institutions. Um, if I have concerns, it’s in those two areas. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:30] Jeremi Suri: And, and those are areas where we, we have talked about those issues, but there’s of course more to be said and perhaps cities are also ground zero for rebuilding trust in institutions, Steve, right.

[00:39:41] Jeremi Suri: I believe

[00:39:42] Steve Adler: that to be true.

[00:39:44] Jeremi Suri: Thank you so much, uh, mayor Steve Adler for joining us today. Uh, we’ve had all kinds of guests on this show of all levels and of all areas of prestige, and it’s really been wonderful having the opportunity to talk to you because you’ve been so close to so many of the issues, uh, that so many of our guests and so many of our listeners, uh, really care about.

[00:40:04] Jeremi Suri: And I think you’ve left an important mark and, uh, we’ve learned a lot talking with you and we hope we’ll have you back on at some point too. Uh, thank you so much. Steve,

[00:40:14] Steve Adler: I enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, Jeremy. Thank you, Zachary.

[00:40:17] Jeremi Suri: Zachary, thank you for your, uh, thoughtful poem and your wonderful questions as always.

[00:40:22] Jeremi Suri: And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.

[00:40:33] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.