This is Democracy – Episode 237: Media and Democracy

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United states, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens

[00:00:22] Jeremi: next. Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

[00:00:29] Jeremi: Today we’re going to talk about the changing media landscape in the United States, particularly cable television news, which for better or worse has a great deal of influence on our politics and on our democracy. And we’ve recently witnessed, uh, the firing. Of two major cable news personalities. Tucker Carlson from Fox News and Don Lemon from c n n.

[00:00:51] Jeremi: They’re on the opposite sides of the political spectrum. Tucker Carlson was of course, one of Donald Trump’s favorite, uh, newscasters. And Don Lemon. Uh, is someone very close to many progressive, uh, political actors in the United States. Today we’re going to talk about, uh, what their firing means and how the media landscape is changing in the United States.

[00:01:11] Jeremi: We’re fortunate to be joined by friend, expert, and overall mench, uh, professor Paul Steckler. Uh, Paul is a longtime friend and, uh, professor at the University of Texas at Austin. He’s now retired, which means he’s working even harder than before. Uh, he’s made a number of major documentaries and received a number of major awards for those documentaries.

[00:01:33] Jeremi: I just wanted to list some of my favorites. Um, my all, all time favorite of Paul’s, uh, documentaries. I think it is the best thing on George Wallace is his documentary film. George Wallace said in the the Woods on fire. And there’s probably no better documentary to watch, to give you a sense of the origins of our right wing, uh, craziness in our society today.

[00:01:55] Jeremi: Uh, there’s a lot of that that’s, uh, there in George Wallace’s experience and really recounted beautifully in Paul’s documentary. He also did another documentary Last Man Standing Politics, Texas Style, which also resonates with today’s politics. Vote For Me, politics in America. Many of you might know Paul’s work most from Eyes On the Prize, the really famous Civil War, civil Rights, excuse me, civil Rights documentary.

[00:02:19] Jeremi: Uh, Paul did two segments for that. He did Last Stand, A Little Bighorn and Postcards from The Great Divide. His documentaries have won just about every award. George Foster, Peabody Awards, DuPont Awards, Emmy Awards, and even a special jury prize from the Sundance Film Festival. That means you got to go to the Sundance Film Festival, right Paul?

[00:02:37] Paul: I did, I actually, I used to live there, you know, in the, uh, ski valley just to south there. So it was nice to come back. Yeah.

[00:02:43] Jeremi: You’ve lived a hard life, haven’t you?

[00:02:45] Paul: Been terrible. Just very, very hard. Thank you for that very nice introduction.

[00:02:51] Jeremi: It’s great to have you on Paul. And, uh, I, I have such high regard for your work and for the insights that really only you can lend to this, uh, crazy media landscape of today.

[00:03:00] Jeremi: So thank you for joining us. Before we turn to our discussion with Paul Steckler, we have a, Course, Mr. Zacharys scene setting poem. What’s your poem’s title today? Lament

[00:03:10] Zachary: for the Not So Lamented.

[00:03:13] Jeremi: Let’s Hear it.

[00:03:14] Zachary: I Am Afraid The times have changed and swallowed up the troll, which waited under bridges, asking all of us to pay the toll.

[00:03:23] Zachary: The water’s risen. The river’s swollen. He can no longer breathe, and all his hot air can escape now in one long single heave. So skip and dance and march toward the light and touch the lampposts on the pier at night. The long hot day is done. The morning comes and runs and beats upon the drum. Will heed its call, will blow the horn.

[00:03:50] Zachary: We’ll watch him fall. We’ll sew our corn. For though it’s been a day of hateful sun, there’ll be some joy to find in this. Some fun may quickly, all his bile flow to farce as truth. Each lying word does parse four for every heart pierced. By the tyrants staff is another raised by the same man’s laugh.

[00:04:16] Jeremi: What is your

[00:04:16] Paul: poem

[00:04:16] Jeremi: about

[00:04:17] Zachary: Zachary?

[00:04:17] Zachary: My poem is about, um, trying to, uh, pause for a moment, I think, and, and celebrate, uh, the sort of fleeting, uh, moment of satisfaction, uh, in the firing of, uh, the probably worst and most prominent right wing, uh, white supremacist troll Tucker Carlson. Um, but also I think that, One of the lessons that we can learn from the whole saga of his career is that if we, uh, are willing, if we are less willing to take people like him seriously and more willing to laugh at their ridiculousness, uh, then, then hopefully they, they have less power.

[00:04:52] Jeremi: Hmm. So you’re feeling a little shot in Freud? A little, a little pleasure in his pain. Certainly. Yes. Paul, what, what do you think you’ve known Tucker Carlson from, from what I understand, and actually worked with him at some point. Yes. Hi, judge Dennis met once I was

[00:05:05] Paul: over. Um, Uh, on the, uh, set of crossfire.

[00:05:09] Paul: It must have been back in 2002, 2003, and I was there to interview, uh, Paul Bago for that, uh, that film, uh, last Man Standing, uh, politics, Texas style. And I talked for Tucker. Uh, talked with Tucker for a little while. He was a really nice guy wearing his bow tie. Um, and, um, uh, was very, very pleasant. His mother had been the, um, The board chair of the corporation, probably broadcasting.

[00:05:37] Paul: So we talked about P B S for a little while, but that was, that was pretty much it. You know, it was a different incarnation. You know, Tucker has gone through, uh, you know, a lot of different changes. Uh, back in Crossfire. He was kind of with the bow tie, you know, sort of, um, being like, uh, a, a younger version of, uh, William F.

[00:05:58] Paul: Buckley. You know, and as he made his descend orent through, you know, the various cable stations, he, um, you know, went through different versions of Pap Buchanan, George Wallace and Prime, uh, prime Minister Orban know. And now that he is, uh, onto something else, if he goes onto radio, he can, um, he can, uh, morph into Father Kauflin.

[00:06:21] Paul: So it’s, um, It’s kind of like the, the sky is the limit. Wh

[00:06:25] Jeremi: why Paul has he, in your narrative with every step become more extreme, gone farther? Right. Uh, that’s not the world of Walter Cronkite or Ted Coppel, obviously.

[00:06:35] Paul: Well, I don’t know that that world exists anymore. You know, it’s kind of like, um, you know, what do you expect, you know, when the, uh, you know, when the, the money is there.

[00:06:44] Paul: Um, you know, and you get the chance to be able to, uh, step into Bill O’Reilly’s. Uh, Gigantic shoes, and you realize that, uh, the further and further you go, the more popular you get and the more, uh, profitable it gets. Um, you know, why not, uh, you know, you know, who knows what he actually believes in. Um, you know, I, I, I, I still think of, you know, him as more of a symptom, you know, of our dysfunctional and, um, you know, alarming politics and lack of political dialogue, you know.

[00:07:15] Paul: But, um, You know, he saw his opportunity, he took it. It’s kinda like, uh, the, um, the ends justify the means, you know, and he got to be more and more popular. He became the most popular guy on cable, remembering that the most popular guy on cable is still just talking to three or 4 million people. It’s, you know, three or 4 million people that we’re talking to.

[00:07:37] Paul: But it’s, uh, you know, it’s pretty substantial. Um, but, uh, what does it all mean? You know, uh, You know, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Uh, you know, there, there are a lot of big guys out there, the Roger ELLs of the world, the, uh, bill O’Reillys of the world, the Lou Dobbs of the world, and, you know, where are they now?

[00:07:58] Paul: It’s um, you know, if they’re still alive or whatever. And, you know, Tucker is, uh, you know, he is at least safe in the woods of Maine. You know, hearing you the takeover of, uh, Antifa for cities or, you know, the zombie apocalypse and they won’t get up to the, the would remain for a long time. You know, I don’t know what it means, you know, it’s kind of like, I really dunno what it means.

[00:08:20] Paul: It’s kind of like, you know, with, uh, the advent of ai, you know, we can just, uh, reboot, um, another version of Tucker, you know, or maybe something looks like Tucker, you know, but all the, uh, the words come out of, uh, artificial intelligence. It’s, um, You know, it’s kind of like he was an easy, you know, he was an easy hero for the right, he was an e easy pinata for the left, and I’m not sure he means anything.

[00:08:45] Paul: You know, I’m not quite sure that five minutes from now will even care.

[00:08:50] Zachary: What do you make of the circumstances surrounding his, his firing and, and what do you think that that decision by Fox News to ultimately let him go, says about the, the media landscape today? I’m not

[00:09:02] Paul: sure it says anything. It’s kind of like, I think what it says is that, uh, they actually read all the unredacted, uh, media, you know, and maybe they saw a lot of stuff there that if it got unredacted would lead to, um, even a more gigantic settlement with the, in the next lawsuit or the next lawsuits.

[00:09:21] Paul: Uh, and maybe they just took it personally that he seemed to have a lot of very unkind things to say about Fox executives. And for all I know, Murdoch himself. And, um, they just decided that he was just too much trouble. And, um, I think they realized that they can, you know, they can create, they can destroy what they create and, and recreate it.

[00:09:42] Paul: It’s, uh, I mean, does anybody think that Fox is gonna go under because of this? You know, does anybody think that, you know, three months from now when they have somebody else there, it’ll be a whole lot different. I believe it’s, you know, I believe that there’re gonna be some more heads that are gonna roll, you know, with some of the more extreme.

[00:09:59] Paul: You know, people that are, you know, idiots compared to Tucker. Uh, but, you know, you’ve got a ton of people and, and talent as it were that can replace them. And, um, you know, just, it’s, it’s, you know, what, what actually changes seriously.

[00:10:15] Jeremi: Well, so, so Paul, you’ve been in this industry longer than anyone I know.

[00:10:19] Jeremi: Um, what is it that actually drives companies like CNN and Fox? Is it just profit or what is, what is driving their decision making? Well,

[00:10:29] Paul: you know, do you think that CNN is having a town hall with Donald Trump because of some sort of moral decision, or the fact that they want to have all sides? Do they think that, uh, it’ll be a money maker in terms of, uh, you know, you know, people, um, you know, selling ads?

[00:10:45] Paul: You know, it’s kind of like, it’s, yeah, I, I don’t, I don’t know if there’s any, uh, profiles and courage, you know, in this industry. I mean, you can go back to Don Lemon, you know, why is Don Lemon gone? Well, Don Lemon was getting kind of boring, you know? He was already, you know, had one foot in the grave, you know, when they threw him into the morning, you know, and they were able to use whatever little stuff that he said, you know, to get rid of him.

[00:11:09] Paul: Um, you know, it’s kind of like, okay, what a big surprise. Um, you know, what does any of this mean in terms of anything besides viewership? Um, you know, I mean, I’m, you know, I’m, I’m an old school guy. Who did I like on, on cable? I like Brian Williams. I liked the first 15 minutes of Brian Williams show where he actually had a really fabulous journalist on, you know, for panel discussions.

[00:11:35] Paul: And I would watch it for 15 minutes when I was home and then turn it off. You know, it’s kind of like, you know, do I like any of these people? Yeah. Kind of. You know, I think Nicole Wallace is really pleasant. Um, you know, but you know, most of the CNN people are really boring, you know, and their panels are like really easy to parody on on Saturday Night Live.

[00:11:53] Paul: I’ll tell you a funny story about, uh, about CNN panels. Uh, one night I was watching, you know, and I’ve been friends with Paul PCA for a long time, and, uh, he’s looking at his computer and I’m assuming he is like, you know, like looking at some of the data that they’re talking about for some political deal.

[00:12:09] Paul: So I just sent him an email, you know, cuz the back of his, uh, his computer had a Longhorn. I just wrote him and I said, nice longhorn, and literally. Like two seconds later I get an email back from going, gotta represent. It’s kinda like, you know how much. How much, uh, concentration do you have to have to be on panels?

[00:12:31] Jeremi: But what, what’s so interesting to me, Paul, talking to you about this, is it it’s easy to bash the media and, and you’ve just done it very well, and, and others do it too. But from your own work, I know you’re a deep believer that the media is the fourth estate that we need, um, news coverage, that it’s essential to our democracy.

[00:12:49] Jeremi: So, so, so what, what should we do?

[00:12:53] Paul: I don’t know. You know, I, yeah, I don’t, I don’t wanna get too depressed about all this, but it’s kind of like, um, you know, where, where is this all leading? You know, I don’t get my news from cable tv, Jeremy. I don’t know if you do. It’s kind of like, you know, I, I read what I can find that’s useful, you know, in the big newspapers and in magazines that I respect.

[00:13:16] Paul: Um, and, uh, that’s pretty much where I get, get my news from. Um, You know, I watch cable if something blows out, you know, or there’s something going on in Ukraine and I wanna see if somebody’s covering it.

[00:13:32] Jeremi: Um, well, and the visuals, right? I mean, I watch for not, not really for the news, but to actually see what’s going on.

[00:13:39] Jeremi: Right.

[00:13:40] Paul: You know, and it’s kind of like, you know, some, some hosts have better, you know, media people or, you know, uh, reporters on than others. You know, some people have the same people over and over again and saying the same stuff over and over again. So it’s kind of like, of course we need it. Um, but this is not, uh, this is really gonna sound like old grandpa, you know, screaming, get off my alarm.

[00:14:04] Paul: But this is not, uh, 1960 and Walter Cronkite, you know, when we had three stations and, you know, some major newspapers, everybody had local papers. I mean, there is a correlation. You know, between social media, the end of journalism as we knew it back then, the proliferation of lots of stuff on cable and the end of useful political discourse and ability to be able to compromise.

[00:14:29] Paul: I mean, look at what we’re looking at right now. You know, the whole deal with the debt crisis. I mean, this is, this is kind of insanity, you know, and there’s enough stupidity to go along on all sides. I mean, I think, you know, the Republicans are much worse, but. Um, you know, the debt is kind of, kind of outta control and nobody cares, or nobody wants, you know, to get beyond winning the next election.

[00:14:53] Paul: Uh, you know, I gotta tell you that, um, it, you know, I’ve been actually talking to some, uh, political friends of mine and I looked at ’em and I go, Donald Trump could get elected in 2024. And they go, yep, sure could. You know, in Hector January 6th and all this sort of stuff, you tell me what makes, you know, what, what is meaningful and how our news coverage is actually impacting things.

[00:15:17] Paul: Cuz I don’t know, do you

[00:15:19] Jeremi: think there’s

[00:15:19] Zachary: still a space, uh, in this media ecosystem for longer form documentary filmmaking and longer form journalism of a sort? Uh,

[00:15:29] Paul: yeah. I, I think for a certain audience. Okay. You know, but there are lots of articles right now about how. You know, in, in my preferred field documentary is devolving in the mostly true crime, uh, you know, films.

[00:15:42] Paul: And if you actually watch these without having your brain go to sleep, you know, they’re mostly long. They don’t go anyplace, they’re salacious. And, uh, and God, did I, why did I spend any time looking at this stuff? Um, you know, in terms of, you know, long form documentary, I mean, it’s the same sort of thing as you know, is there a place for books?

[00:16:00] Paul: Is there a place for really good journalism? Of course there is. You know, your challenge is gonna be, what’s the audience? You know, last night I saw a really amazing documentary, uh, called Sam. Now you know, about a family where the mother disappears and the boys are impacted and they go searching for it was really pretty amazing in terms of family dynamics, you know, what’s the audience for this kind of a 90 minute film?

[00:16:26] Paul: Uh, I don’t think it’s gigantic. Um, you know, we just finished a, a, a short film about, um, The struggles of the Canadian record, the, um, award-winning newspaper out in the Texas panhandle. And it’s a really beautiful film. It’s called For the Record. And, um, you know, we had 300 people at the at and t center for a screen of it here, you know, but it’s been a real struggle to figure out where to, where to get it on television or where to get it in front of, you know, large audiences because it’s, um, the audiences are looking for something different.

[00:17:00] Paul: They’re looking for. You know, more of a thrill, you know, more of an entertaining sort of deal. It’s kind of like, you know, the writer’s strike is, you know, horrible for a lot of things, but great for reality TV cuz there’s no writers. Sure. But,

[00:17:14] Jeremi: but Paul, I’ve never been able to figure this out. Is it really that the audience is getting the dumb down things that they want, the ideological things they want?

[00:17:25] Jeremi: Or is that just what’s being presented to them?

[00:17:28] Paul: I think it’s a combination of both. And I don’t want to get too elitist in terms of going dumb down or whatever. I mean, you know, like, you know, I kinda liked every now and then Duck Dynasty guys are hilarious. Uh, you know, and they’re, uh, Louisiana, they’re like gigantic beard guys in the swamps, the wives that I have no idea how they got.

[00:17:49] Paul: Uh, so it’s, uh, Uh, you know, we all like, you know, you know, gosh, Jeremy, I’ve, I’ve seen Talladega nights probably four or five times, so it’s kinda like, who am I to, you know, say what’s dumb? Um, but I, you know, it’s, you know, when you have lots and lots of choices, um, and your viewership is divided into smaller and smaller chunks.

[00:18:15] Paul: So that Tucker Carlson, you know, with 3 million people, you know, is seen as God, which is just not that many people. Um, I don’t, I don’t know. It’s kinda like, how do you get much of a consensus on much of anything? It’s uh, you know, and how do you break through this stuff, you know? And I don’t know what that is.

[00:18:33] Paul: You know, a lot of the stuff that’s going on in politics right now, if you would’ve told us 20 years ago, you would’ve said this was insane. You know, the state, state legislature in Texas looks like it’s about to pass a bill where it’s, it’s okay to, uh, throw elections just in Harris County. I mean, just why don’t we get, you know, just say, have a bill saying all elections won by Democrats can get thrown out.

[00:18:59] Paul: But

[00:18:59] Jeremi: as you know, Paul, there’s nothing new in that, right? I mean, we went through 40 years when we didn’t have that, but that’s, you know, that’s old Texas politics. That’s back to, you know, early Lyndon Johnson’s time, right?

[00:19:09] Paul: Well, not like this. It’s kind of like, you know, this is, you know, you know the kind of stuff where if, if you get elected governor and the state legislature as a super majority, they us take all your powers away.

[00:19:20] Paul: You know, that, that, that we didn’t have beforehand. Um, you know, the kind of gerrymandering, which is, um, being able to be done with, you know, highly, you know, useful computer programs, you know, and where you have fewer and fewer and fewer competitive elections. No, that’s, that’s something new. And if you take a look at what our legislature is actually, you know, thinking about, um, you know, I mean, I, I, I, I do not, you know, I don’t, uh, put down the fact that parents ought to have some sort of, you know, input on things in school.

[00:19:54] Paul: But did we really just pass a bill where if any parent complains about a book, it’s immediately taken off the shelves? Now, and so there’s a hearing later on, but again, that’s,

[00:20:04] Jeremi: that’s the 1920s in Texas that’s actually going. I mean, I, it’s not that this isn’t horrible. It’s horrible, but it does seem as if, you know, we do go in these cycles and, and to me looking at this, and I’ve learned this from your work, Paul and others, you know, to some extent, um, Our society improves when generations of Americans are educated and they’re not often educated in schools alone.

[00:20:25] Jeremi: They’re often educated through the news, through documentaries, through what they see around them. And it’s almost as if there’s a hole now that was there before, uh, in the education of the public because people are not, are not really getting real news in, in a sense. Well, you saw

[00:20:40] Paul: the big article at times today that said that, um, uh, levels of knowledge and math, science and history are plunging in the United States.

[00:20:48] Paul: So those that have no idea what history are, is, uh, you know, or are doomed to repeat it. You know, this goes back to the, you know, the premise on this stuff. We concentrate on Tucker Carlson is gone, you know, to a lord, you know, much smaller extent Don Lemon is gone. You know, and this is like besides the point, um, you know, again, I, you know, Like I said, I liked Tucker when I met him.

[00:21:13] Paul: He was, he’s awful. It’s kind of like, you know, I read this, uh, this insane, uh, unredacted thing that’s, uh, came out today, you know, with him watching the people beat up, uh Yep. Yep. And

[00:21:24] Jeremi: saying, this is not how white people fight. Yeah,

[00:21:26] Paul: no. And it’s kind of like, it’s fascinating his thought process, you know, sort of, uh, I wonder who he was sending this to, but, um, you know, so at least he’s thinking, but it’s kinda like, who cares about him?

[00:21:37] Paul: You know, it’s kind of like, you know, do you think that really, if you are a progressive, that Donald Trump is the problem? You know, if Donald Trump wasn’t there, do you really think that Ron DeSantis would be a whole lot better? You know, even though he’s proving himself not ready for prime time, you know, as he gets beaten up by Mickey Mouse, I mean, by the way, I think he’s gonna lose that, uh, that that lawsuit in Florida.

[00:22:00] Paul: Now we can open up your Yap and you say exactly why you’re doing all this stuff in terms of like freedom of speech. Yeah, I wish you a lot of luck in the courtroom, you know, unless you’re in front of the Florida Supreme Court, uh, or maybe the United States Supreme Court. I, I don’t know. It’s kind of like, you know, like I said, I think, you know, you know, unless Tucker runs for something, which I highly doubt, you know, or if Tucker becomes Trump’s vice president, which I highly doubt because he is gonna look for somebody that’s much loyal.

[00:22:27] Paul: If I were you, I’d be putting money on Christie Nome, the, uh, the governor of, uh, of South Dakota. Um, But, um, you know, you know, I think it’s completely possible that, you know, a year from now, no one will care, you know, or, you know, outside of his immediate family. Who, Tucker Carlson Lawrence. I mean, how much time have you spent.

[00:22:48] Paul: I’m thinking about Bill O’Reilly. I know you probably buy his books.

[00:22:51] Jeremi: No, no, they’re horrible. I don’t buy his books. Our listeners should not buy his books. They’re horrible. Lou Dobbs

[00:22:59] Paul: still alive. Uh, or is he in the Rods Hall? You know, hall up in the, the sky. But I, if our

[00:23:06] Zachary: politics and in our media landscape are, are so depressing, which I think you right, you may have accurately diagnosed, why do you think we’re seeing such.

[00:23:14] Zachary: An increase, or at least a continued high level of participation in our politics. I mean, in Wisconsin, in the state Supreme Court election, that that, that the Democrat just won, there was some of the highest turnout for an off year election in, in history.

[00:23:28] Paul: Right. It just depends on where you are. You know, if you’re looking, you know, if you’re a progressive and you look at Wisconsin or Michigan, you’re feeling great.

[00:23:37] Paul: You know, if you pay attention to 20 other states with super majorities, You know, in the legislature like Idaho or Georgia, you know, or Texas or Florida, where there’s tons of legislation getting passed, a lot of, which is really pretty wild, uh, and maybe doesn’t look so good. So it’s, it’s um, you know, what’s the cliche?

[00:24:00] Paul: Anger drives people out and there are a lot of angry people out there. You know, I think Tucker was really good in his own weird way of getting people angry without seeming like he was so angry cuz he was the kind of guy that never said, It’s this, he goes, well, it could be this, or what do you think of this?

[00:24:17] Paul: Right. Crazy,

[00:24:18] Jeremi: crazy theory. Innuendo. News as innuendo. Yeah.

[00:24:21] Paul: Yeah. Um, you know, but, um, you know, there was, there was, you know, high political participation in the United States in the latter part of the 19th century, and I’m not sure it led to really fabulous, you know, fabulous democracy. So, well,

[00:24:34] Jeremi: it did get us Theodore Roosevelt, right?

[00:24:36] Jeremi: I mean, well, that’s,

[00:24:37] Paul: yeah, but he got there only because, um, you know, only, you know, cooperated by dying. The Amala Harriss theory of, I know the only way I can get become president is if Joe

[00:24:48] Jeremi: drops. Well, so there, I mean, you are correct of course, but you’re also partially correct, right? Because the progressive error of that moment, of that time is, is some of the most important reforms in our Of course.

[00:24:59] Jeremi: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but Paul, I guess, The real question that I, that I, I, I want to hear you reflect on is, uh, what should our, our listeners, particularly our young listeners who share as Zachary does share your, um, concerns with our current mediascape. What should they do? How can they, how can the young Paul steckler out there, uh, change things?

[00:25:20] Jeremi: How can they be part of creating a better news environment?

[00:25:25] Paul: You know, without being namby-pamby about it, it’s kind of just be an educated public, you know, just to, you know, actually subscribe to papers and magazines so they don’t go outta business, uh, and participate in the system. And, you know, and that means, you know, not only voting, but also getting involved in campaigns, running for office, um, you know, and just being part of the political process as opposed to just giving up on it.

[00:25:48] Paul: Um, you know, and, um, there are always campaigns you can be part of. There’s always. You know, social justice organizations, you know, or organizations on the other side, you know, but you know, stuff that gets involved with actual public policy. Not all of it is ideological, not all of it is, uh, you know, I hate you, you hate me, and you know, one of us is gonna win the election.

[00:26:11] Paul: But it’s just being part of, you know, part of society, part of a community. Um, and you know, there are a lot of folks that are looking at sort of an atomized America. You know what, with the surgeon general talking yesterday about how, uh, being lonely on your own is actually smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Um, and there’s just a lot of angry people out there, uh, that don’t talk to other folks.

[00:26:38] Paul: And so how do you, you know, how do you and yourself remain part of a community? And that’s, that’s the best solution I can figure. And that maybe somehow, you know, in a, a country which is dominated by. Political figures who, um, who then, you know, make things happen. Maybe there is somebody out there who finally runs, who’s able to bring us more together, or China invades Taiwan or Russia blows up a nuclear bomb over a Kiev.

[00:27:09] Paul: And, uh, and all of a sudden the country really comes together. You know, some sort of like World War II crisis.

[00:27:15] Jeremi: Zachary, what do you think Is that, is that compelling to you?

[00:27:18] Zachary: I think it is. I think that, uh, I think that, uh, your explanation for, for why people are still participating as, as being rooted in anger, I think it is, unfortunately quite correct.

[00:27:29] Zachary: And I think that one of the things we as, as a new generation of, of people, Like myself who are voting for the first time or participating, uh, as full members of the political process for the first time, uh, have a responsibility to do is, is reconnect with our own communities, um, and, and, and really invest in and care about, uh, the issues in, in our community and the, the local policy decisions, which are often, uh, more removed, uh, from the broader ideological debates, which can often become personalized.

[00:28:00] Zachary: Or, or, or, or. Or grounds

[00:28:02] Jeremi: it in anger. And, and do you find that young people have the, the hope and desire to do that? Because it, it has to come, what Paul is saying is, has to come from within. It’s not, you’re not gonna be inspired on cable news. I, I agree.

[00:28:12] Zachary: And I think that there’s also a, a sense parti, and I’ve said this before on the podcast, uh, having lived through the pre pandemic, uh, I think there is a sense among my generation that expertise matters.

[00:28:23] Zachary: And expertise is important, uh, and good governance as well. And so I think that my generation hopefully will be more pragmatic, uh, in its politics or at the very least, uh, will, will learn much quick, more quickly, uh, than the generation before us, uh, to, uh, root out, uh, unreliable sources and to seek, uh, expertise.

[00:28:44] Jeremi: Yeah. So Paul, the last question I want to ask you, just following from what Zachary said, and I, I think both of you, despite your very serious an anxieties and criticisms of our world, I mean, I, I’m, I’m hearing both Paul and Zachary say that politics remains a noble calling. That there’s still a noble purpose there.

[00:29:03] Jeremi: Um, you, you taught this for years. Paul, do you agree that with that No,

[00:29:07] Paul: no, no, no. I totally agree with it. You know, and I think that most people, I like to think that most people that get involved in politics, Are not there for naked ambition, but because they actually believe in things and they want the world to change in different ways.

[00:29:19] Paul: Um, and the more people that are involved that way, the better. You know? So it’s kind of like, me know, maybe I’m, you know, contradicting myself, but, uh, you know, if democracy isn’t the best. Solution in the world. It’s better than all the others. It’s Winston Churchill. Winston

[00:29:37] Jeremi: Churchill. Yeah. Yeah. So I love it.

[00:29:40] Jeremi: I, I, I, for me, it’s a victory. If I can get Paul Steckler quoting Winston Churchill. There we go. Black. Paul, thank you so much, uh, for joining us, uh, today and for all the work you’ve done, uh, to inspire me and so many others who think about political change in our society, in our, in our democracy. Zachary, thank you for your, uh, stunning and uh, humorous poem today.

[00:30:05] Jeremi: And thank you, most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.

[00:30:18] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by harini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:30:38] Outro: See you next time.