This is Democracy – Episode 234: Israel’s Democracy in Crisis

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next

[00:00:22] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy.

[00:00:29] Jeremi Suri: Today we are going to discuss the controversy surrounding the overhaul and fundamental efforts to transform the judiciary and the ways in which, uh, justice is administered in the state of Israel. Israel has long been seen as, uh, one of the few democracies in the Middle East. It’s a country obviously with very close relations to the United States and to Europe, and uh, it’s going through now probably one of its, uh, deepest existential crises in the short history of the country.

[00:00:59] Jeremi Suri: Over the question of the role that the judiciary should play and the efforts by the current Prime Minister, prime Minister Benjamin Net, Benjamin Netanyahu. To, uh, limit the powers of the judiciary and give the legislature the Israeli esk, uh, power to fundamentally override the judiciary. We’re going to talk about these, uh, judicial reform efforts, and we’re gonna talk about their implications and why they’re so controversial and what they mean for democracy in Israel, in our own country, in the United States and elsewhere, uh, with atar David.

[00:01:32] Jeremi Suri: Uh, Atar. David is an agricultural and environmental historian at the University of Texas where he is getting his, uh, PhD as we speak, uh, as we speak. He’s working on his PhD. His, uh, project examines the trans regional history of agricultural practices, commodity exchanges, and knowledge production between the middle.

[00:01:54] Jeremi Suri: And the American Southwest at the turn of the 19th century. So really, the connections between agriculture and the American Southwest and the Middle East are fascinating topic. And, um, it, it connects actually to what we’re talking about today because ATAR is deeply interested in the connections between, um, the region of the world that we’re talking about today and the wider world around it, and the ways in which, uh, the region of the world he studies is, is structured in how people live there.

[00:02:20] Jeremi Suri: Uh, we’re very fortunate to have a tar with us. He’s. Uh, a citizen of, of Israel, and, uh, someone who’s deeply concerned about the events, uh, in his country right now. So, oar, thank you for joining.

[00:02:31] Atar David: Thanks for having me. Happy to be here

[00:02:33] Jeremi Suri: Before we turn to our discussion with Atar, we have of course, uh, Mr.

[00:02:39] Jeremi Suri: Zachary’s scene setting poem. What’s the title of your poem?

[00:02:43] Zachary Suri: Passover 2023.

[00:02:45] Jeremi Suri: Oh, we just had Passover, or we’re still in Passover. Yeah. Ha. Samaya, by the way, Zachary, thank you. We still have Matsa in the house, don’t we? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. It’s still being consumed. It’s still being consumed. Yes. All right. Well, go ahead.

[00:02:56] Jeremi Suri: Let’s hear your.

[00:02:57] Zachary Suri: Far from the prying eyes of generations left unwound and unspool. I wander the streets fighting back the naying wounds of a Texas rainstorm. In books. I have seen us run the length of Polish mountain roads in snow with no shoes or find some unquiet death in a mud puddle mound, which the birds only remember was once Flesh whose.

[00:03:27] Zachary Suri: Do not worry. I have never seen such things myself. I have only talked through them over and over again. Been freed a thousand times from Egypt only to find that half of them are gone. In this sense, it is a miracle that the star is on those flags of hours They wave in the center of the city street before our own stalled cars.

[00:03:51] Zachary Suri: The freeway sea, as if from death, can sometimes spring democracy, but if the crashing waves of dark seas have any meaning, it is that it is always a fragile piece and the difference between living and drown. Is only a sliver of reef,

[00:04:11] Jeremi Suri: the precarity of it. All right, Zachary? Yeah. The precariousness of it all, I guess is a better way to say that.

[00:04:16] Jeremi Suri: Uh, what, what is your poem about and how does it connect to our topic this week? Well, my

[00:04:21] Zachary Suri: poem, uh, on the one hand is trying to, uh, understand and capture the ways in which the holocaust and the long, long history, uh, of, of trauma, uh, and, and, and violence, uh, among the Jewish people and against the Jewish people.

[00:04:37] Zachary Suri: How. Uh, has affected Israeli society and Israeli democracy. Uh, but more than that, it’s, it’s about trying to, uh, capture a point that I think often gets lost in these discussions, uh, which is that the difference between, uh, the oppressor and the oppressed is sometimes a thin line. The difference between being saved and being drowned.

[00:04:59] Zachary Suri: If we take the biblical metaphor and. It’s very important, even as a people still trying to recover from the greatest crime in human history, or at least as I would see it, um, I think, uh, there’s still a space for us to be critical of our, of ourselves and our failings to create, uh, just democracy and to promote the values that protect us, but also protect everyone around the world.

[00:05:23] Jeremi Suri: So, so you’re saying that those who have been the victims of oppression can be the perpetrators of it as well? Exactly. And that it’s fair to criticize. The victims of oppression when they act as oppressors themselves. Yes. Yeah. Um, ATAR that, that seems to be a good spot to turn to, uh, our discussion today.

[00:05:40] Jeremi Suri: What are the efforts, what, what, what role has the Israeli judiciary played, uh, around these exact issues around protecting democracy and protecting different groups in Israel, uh, during, during the recent decades of Israeli.

[00:05:55] Atar David: Yeah. So first of all, Zachary, thank you so much for that poem. I, I really liked it and I think your point about oppressors and oppressed is spot on.

[00:06:05] Atar David: And we don’t only have the, um, the right to criticize whoever is imposing, um, you know, unjust rules, but we have the duty to do. Um, and I think it really resonates both in your poem and in some of the stuff that we’re gonna talk about today. So, Jeremy, as to your question, generally speaking, the, the judicial branch and, and here we talk mainly about the Israeli Supreme Court upholds, uh, both the Democratic standards and, um, human rights in Israel.

[00:06:38] Atar David: And he does so because he. Two major responsibilities. One, obviously it serves as the highest judicial instant in the country. But second, and perhaps more important for our discussion is that it serves as something that we call the high court for justice or the guts in Hebrew, which means that the court examines the legality of government decisions and the constitutionality of laws passed by the parliament.

[00:07:09] Atar David: But it’s worth noting that the court operates in an environment of constitutional ambiguity and to understand why the ambiguity occurred and why an independent Supreme Court is. Such, such a fundamental institution for Israeli democracy. Um, I think we should acknowledge and, and talk for a second about Israel’s unique constitutional history.

[00:07:34] Atar David: Yes, please. And, and, and the most important thing to know is that Israel has no constitution. So for, um, several political reasons that I, I won’t get into now, the founders of Israel. Israel was founded in 1948 and, uh, the founders decided that rather than writing one coherent document, Israeli parliaments would build its constitution incrementally by legislation special, um, constitutional like laws that we call basic.

[00:08:07] Atar David: So up until the 1990s, these, um, basic laws, these fundamental laws focused mainly on organizing the juvenile, um, Israeli political system, right? So they defined the role of the parliament, the role of the executive branch, that of the judicial branch, the army, and so forth. And then in 1992 and 1994, the Israeli parliament passed two highly important basic.

[00:08:33] Atar David: The first one was the basic law concerning human dignity and liberty. And then the second one was the basic law concerning freedom of occupation. And what these tool laws cemented is human rights as constitutional rights, right? As as something that is inherent to the fact that you’re a citizen of Israel.

[00:08:54] Atar David: So the platform, the legal platform for, um, a more activist and a more, um, internationalist court was there, but there was something missing. And that’s the wheel of the court to intervene or to oversight the government’s decisions and, and, and orders. And that change came with, um, uh, with a guy named a Barak who became Chief Justice in 1995.

[00:09:20] Atar David: Um, he’s served, by the way, from 1995 to 99 to 2006. Sorry. Wow. So he had a long tenure. Yeah. Yes. As, as as chief Justice. So, Barack is considered both a liberal, which means that he prioritizes human rights above all elses, and an activist, which means that he believes that the court has the authority to overcome parliament’s decision whenever they are rendered unconstitutional according to these basic.

[00:09:47] Atar David: Or unreasonable. Um, and then one other thing that we need to consider is that the structure of Israeli political system is somewhat weird, right? It’s not the same as the American one. Um, Israel is not a two-party system. It has a multi-party system. And the way to form a government is to create a coalition of several parties and these same parties that form the coalition of the go.

[00:10:14] Atar David: Um, also formed the parliamentary majority, and so the executive and the legal branches are tightly bounded and they’re basically the same. And so the Supreme Court is the only real independent branch that is meant to balance the other two branches. And so the. The Israeli Supreme Court operates in an environment of, of yet uncompleted constitution.

[00:10:39] Atar David: Um, and yet it sees itself as holding the authority to, um, regulate and overrule constitutional, unconstitutional, sorry, or, or unreasonable laws. And,

[00:10:51] Zachary Suri: and what are the, the changes exactly, uh, the changes to this, uh, judiciary system, uh, that Prime Minister, Benjamin, Nat Yahu and his allies in the Knesset, a advocate.

[00:11:02] Zachary Suri: And, and why has that do you think, been met with, with such a, uh, fervent response from the public?

[00:11:09] Atar David: That’s a great question. Um, let, let’s, let’s, um, talk about the first part of, of your questions, Zachary, and, and again, it’s important to remember. The, the core of the current crisis in Israel is the question of the Supreme Court’s authority, right?

[00:11:25] Atar David: Um, so there are two camps in Israel these days, two groups that think differently about that question. On the one hand, we have the liberal groups that are made of liberal politicians, NGOs, um, some members of the Supreme Court, and as of this moment, the huge protest movement that’s on the street. And what they’re saying is, True.

[00:11:48] Atar David: There might be a need for reforming the, the high, the Supreme Court, but the court has the right, and to some extent, the duty to overrule laws whenever they are again, un unconstitutional or unreasonable. On the other hand, we have the, the conservative groups that are made of conservative politicians, the foreign government and, and some fractions of, of the public and, and the supreme.

[00:12:14] Atar David: What they argue is that the parliament, as the people’s representative, has the higher authority, right? It has, um, uh, it has as the representative of the people, the Supreme Court cannot overrule laws that are being legislated by the parliament, and that such overruling is in fact undemocratic. So that’s the, the first part that’s, that’s the core of the core of the argument.

[00:12:40] Atar David: Um, As to the actual policies when, when the current Israeli Prime Minister, um, minister of Justice Jev Levine, uh, presented these plans for reform in January, what, uh, it looked like as though the government’s goal was not really to, uh, define more clearly the, the balance between the three branches, but rather to completely deny the Supreme Court of any real power to supervise the government and the.

[00:13:09] Atar David: Um, so let’s examine just two suggestions from Levine’s original Reform. And explain why they’re problematic. Um, the first piece of legislation that they, that they suggested is that the Supreme Court won’t be able to overrule these AC laws, right? These, um, introduction to Constitution if, if you will, um, these special laws that someday will become the Israeli constitution.

[00:13:33] Atar David: But since there is no written procedure on how to legislate these basic laws, and, and there is no an agreed upon process of how to, how to do that. What this clause means is that the Parliament can, uh, plea every law as basic law, and so the Supreme Court will be left basically powerless. So that was one example.

[00:13:54] Atar David: So, so

[00:13:55] Jeremi Suri: Atar, just a question on that. Does that mean that under this proposal, the Knesset, the coalition government that Netanyahu currently is the prime Minister for, does that mean that they could actually pass laws that they would call basic laws that would deny basic democratic rights like free speech?

[00:14:15] Atar David: Um, theoretically speaking, yeah, they can do that. And then the court will have no, or, or very minimal way of, of regulating and, and overruling them.

[00:14:25] Jeremi Suri: Wow. Wow.

[00:14:27] Atar David: Yeah. Um, what they’re saying, by the way, when, when they were confronted with these allegations, uh, the government and, and right read politicians, they said, well, don’t worry, we’re not gonna.

[00:14:38] Atar David: So we have the option, we’re just not gonna do it. Not gonna do it. So that’s

[00:14:43] Jeremi Suri: not, that’s not very, that’s not very comforting. There was a second area you that I, I I cut you off before you got to, I apologize. Yeah. So

[00:14:50] Atar David: I just wanted to give one more example of, of uh, sort of problematic, um, suggestion that they have.

[00:14:57] Atar David: So they, they proposed, um, changing the structure of the judicial appointment committee, which. A committee that works in the parliament so that the coalition, um, will have an inherent majority in the process of, of appointing judges, right? So remember, the coalition in the parliament and the government are basically the same people.

[00:15:17] Atar David: It’s basically the same basis of power, right? What that. A proposal means is that the Parliament and the government as a result, controls the judicial branch completely. And that judges have in a way interest to, um, you know, to come forward, uh, and help, uh, uh, parliament members and, and, and, and ministers and not to, not to hold them accountable to anything cuz their promot.

[00:15:45] Atar David: Depends on the same

[00:15:47] Jeremi Suri: people. Right? Right. So they, they would, they would be professionally dependent upon the members of Parliament different from the way we do judgeships in the United States where it’s a, a lifetime appointment.

[00:16:01] Atar David: That’s right. That’s right. Um, um, I forgot to mention before, um, tenure of, uh, of, um, to the Supreme, um, Courtney Israel is not for life.

[00:16:09] Atar David: Um, judges have to retire at 70. But still, um, if you’re, if you’re dependent on, on, on a group of people, you’re not gonna hold them accountable cuz you’re a personal, uh, development. Your personal career depends on them.

[00:16:24] Jeremi Suri: Right. It makes you more like a cabinet minister than a judge. Correct.

[00:16:28] Atar David: That That’s right.

[00:16:29] Atar David: That’s right.

[00:16:30] Jeremi Suri: So just explain to us before we move forward and talk about the opposition to this set of proposals. And I, and I sense you share many of the concerns of, of some in the opposition. But before we move forward to that, just explain to us why you think for Israel it’s so important to have an independent judiciary, which you’ve had, which is now threatened.

[00:16:50] Jeremi Suri: Why is it so important to maintain this independent judici?

[00:16:55] Atar David: Again, I think it comes back to the question of balance of power because. The executive branch and the judicial branch share the same basis of power. It’s the same personnel. They promote the same ideology. You can’t, technically speaking, you can’t hold onto a government without having a clear and sustainable majority in the Parliament.

[00:17:20] Atar David: These two branches are highly connected, and so the Supreme Court. The only balance to, um, an unlimited power by the executive branch and the parliament.

[00:17:34] Jeremi Suri: So, so it’s a, it’s a protection as you see it against tyranny by the government that’s in power.

[00:17:41] Atar David: Exactly.

[00:17:43] Jeremi Suri: Um, so why, um, is it, is it, is that the reason why there has been such widespread opposition?

[00:17:49] Jeremi Suri: I have to say, as a, as someone who just, um, observes Israel from the outside and is not an expert, I have been astounded by the breath and depth of the protests, uh, reservists in the military, not showing up for duty. Protest. Um, obviously young people, many groups coming out, uh, across Israel. Uh, what has, what has sparked this resistance right now?

[00:18:14] Atar David: Exactly that I think the people of Israel realize that the, the reform that the government is trying to promote is not simply to rebalance. The, the power structure or the power relations or the, the, the, you know, the, the relationship between the three branches. It’s completely changing the very fabric of Israeli society.

[00:18:40] Atar David: Um, so people realize that people are not, Not dumb, basically.

[00:18:48] Zachary Suri: And how common are protests such as these in Israeli society, these kind of mass, uh, demonstrations of, of discontent with a, with a ruling coalition?

[00:18:59] Atar David: Um, not, not so much. Um, I think the current pro produce that we see now, Um, is, is so unique and so, um, so, so special in the history of Israel.

[00:19:14] Atar David: Um, and I can talk some more about why I think it’s so Please. Um, it’s so widespread and, and successful so far or successful to some extent. Um, so I, I think what the true power of, of the current, um, um, protest movement is its diversity and the fact that it operates. Several dimensions, let’s call it that way.

[00:19:37] Atar David: And, and I think I can, I can divide it generally speaking into four sections, four groups of demonstrators, right? So the first one is, uh, the grassroot protest of, of masses, of people. Um, just to give you some numbers, um, that I, that I, um, Found, um, in, in preparing for, um, for this podcast. So, um, the Ministry of Justice Levine announced his plan for, um, judicial reform on January 4th, right?

[00:20:09] Atar David: That was Wednesday. By the following Saturday, January 7th. Thousands of people demonstrated in various locations, um, but mainly in Tel Aviv the week after the following Saturday, January four. Some 80,000 people demonstrated in Tel Aviv alone, and by January 21st, um, an estimated 150,000 people demonstrated all across Israel.

[00:20:34] Atar David: Um, and these, uh, protests are still on the go every Saturday. And I know a lot of family members and and friends that are protesting on a weekly basis and sometime even. Um, on a daily basis. And, and there are a lot of Israelis that, by the way, live outside of Israel that are holding weekly protests as well.

[00:20:55] Atar David: Um, we here in Austin are demonstrating every Sunday at 4:00 PM next to the, to the capitol. Um, so that’s the, that’s like the first group, the, the grassroot protest. There was also, let’s call it the, the institution institutional story Objection of from various. Current and, and former public servants. So many current and former prime Ministers, ministers, uh, chief of staff, MOSAD Shabbat leaders, which are the equivalent to the American FBI and CIA economists, um, academia members, doctors and whatnot have publicly condemned the reform and argue.

[00:21:39] Atar David: If the government passes the laws that he wanted to pass, Israel would cease to be a democracy. Sorry,

[00:21:44] Jeremi Suri: Jeremy. This include, this includes the Minister of Defense, correct. Who re resigned as well? Yes.

[00:21:49] Atar David: Yeah, well, it included him for a while. Um, oh, okay. That later. That was, that was an interesting of, um, the third fraction, um, is the economic protest.

[00:22:04] Atar David: So, um, I guess a lot of you know that the tax sector makes about 16% of Israel, g d p and right from the get go. Um, private investors announced that they feared the reform would crash Israel’s economy and that they’re responsible for their investors. Uh, they’ll have to basically flowing money outside of the country.

[00:22:29] Atar David: And that had some, oh, not very profound economic impact, but a lot of people are. From an economic crash in the. And then the fourth fraction, which you’ve mentioned briefly, uh, Jeremy and I, which I think was the most impactful, is the, uh, military protest or, or ex-military protest. So it’s important to realize that military service is mandatory in Israel.

[00:22:58] Atar David: And once you’re done with, when you’re, once you’re dismissed from active duty, you are stationed in reserves, which makes the majority of military personality, Israel, um, and, and that these people who are, who are in reserve are basically volunteering to serve, right? That it’s illegally or, or theoretically mandatory to serve, but no one can really.

[00:23:23] Atar David: Force you to do that if you don’t want to. Um, and as the government went on with, uh, promoting the reforms, some people announced that if the laws pass and when Israel cease to be a democracy, they would stop showing up. Now, these people, the leaders of the reserve protests are people that allow. The very existence of Israel, they are pilots and, and special up people without them serving.

[00:23:51] Atar David: Honestly, my parents can start looking for real estate in Austin, um, and that they know that they have leverage on the government and they are using it I think very wisely. Is

[00:24:04] Jeremi Suri: this the first time we have seen that group protest? In this way?

[00:24:09] Atar David: In this way, yes. So there have been some, um, protests of, of Acts, military personnel in, in Israel, but these, and, and, and reserve people in Israel.

[00:24:20] Atar David: But these had to do mainly with, um, issues that were related to the Army and with, um, you know, some debates about. Israeli say, um, operations in Gaza or back in 82 about the, um, Lance Shaila, um, massacre and Israel’s, um, alleged involvement in that. So that was a huge protest, but never, never before in, in the history of Israel, um, military, personal and, and, and people with such a such leverage use that leverage to change.

[00:25:01] Atar David: Decisions and, and, and reforms that are not related directly to the military. Um,

[00:25:07] Jeremi Suri: atar, is there a, um, ethnic breakdown that we know of in, in who’s protesting and who isn’t? Uh, obviously a lot of attention has been given in recent years to the changing ethnic composition of Israel with so many Russian refugees coming to Israel and Israel becoming less of a, um, east European, uh, and German.

[00:25:29] Jeremi Suri: Dominated society. And that’s of course changed the politics considerably. Also adding in the settlers of course. Uh, do these ethnic cleavages, do they explain to some extent who’s protesting and who’s not?

[00:25:42] Atar David: Yeah, I think they explain more who is not protesting. Um, so again, because, because the suggested reforms, um, are so fundamental because they really, um, Um, you know, take the political system out of balance.

[00:26:03] Atar David: There is a, there is a, a, a very wide coalition of people who are protesting, but, um, there are a lot of people who feel that they’re not belong to the foreign protest. Um, I think the two major groups are a, the, um, Orthodox. Who are traditionally more associated with supporting the, um, right wing, um, um, fractions of Israeli politics.

[00:26:32] Atar David: And so they are, at least in theory and by definition, supporting the current reforms. And then, The other group are the Arab Israelis who are not taking, um, most of them are not taking active part in the current pro uh, protests. Um, and I honestly, I think that’s one of the biggest issues of, of the protest these days is that, um, although it is.

[00:27:01] Atar David: In, in my opinion, um, at least justifiable and right. It, it hasn’t been able to be inclusive enough to people who are not traditionally taking a more active role in shaping Israeli society and politics.

[00:27:17] Jeremi Suri: And, and you think that’s why the Arab Israelis have been less involved?

[00:27:21] Atar David: Yes. I think they’re, traditionally speaking, they feel like, um, they.

[00:27:28] Atar David: Underrepresented in the political system. And so whatever problem the judicial branch have or the Parliament have, um, since they’re not being, you know, a part of that game to begin with, they don’t feel like they have money on the table, I guess. And, and, and I think they’re wrong, by the way. I think they’re the first one to be hurt and to suffer when.

[00:27:56] Atar David: Reforms would, would pass if they’ll pass.

[00:28:00] Zachary Suri: Um, what has been the government, the ruling coalition that proposed this legislation in the first place, what has been their reaction to these protests? Uh, we’ve seen, I think for the first time in a long time, uh, prime Minister Netanyahu being forced to, to back down on an issue o of this magnitude.

[00:28:18] Zachary Suri: Yes.

[00:28:20] Atar David: Yeah. Um, I’m not sure that I, that I agree that, that the protest really pushed Netanyahu to the corner and that that was the, the leading cause for him stopping, um, the process. Now it’s one narrative and it, and it’s, uh, um, You know, it has, it has some, some, some good foundation. So, um, about three we, weeks ago, um, Netanyahu fired the defense Minister, uh, yo after the later call to basically stop the process and negotiate with the opposition.

[00:28:59] Atar David: Um, That was 8:00 PM Israel time, if I remember correctly. And almost immediately people fled to the streets in hundreds of thousands and protested all night. Um, so that was some sort of organic and, and very powerful reaction. But I think the more profound effect of that move by Netanyahu was that the next day, Israel largest labor union, which includes workers from both.

[00:29:28] Atar David: Private and the public sector declared a general strike that shut down the entire economy for half a day. And so by the evening of that day, NA now announced that he’s willing to stop for a month and, and negotiate with the opposition and the protest movement. But, um, coincidentally or not, you tell me. A few days later, the parliament went to recess, uh, because of Passover, Israeli Memorial Day and Independence Day.

[00:29:56] Atar David: So I think while can claim that he listened to the public and, and sort of took a step back there, um, technically speaking, it seems to me that the process would’ve stopped regardless.

[00:30:11] Jeremi Suri: And, and what do you expect from Netanyahu then going forward when, when the Knesset comes back from Passover?

[00:30:17] Atar David: Right. So as, as we speak now, there is an ongoing negotiation between, uh, the coalition and the opposition that is taking place, um, courtesy of Israel’s president, which is sort of a symbolic crawl that has no real authority kind of.

[00:30:34] Atar David: A British royalty, but without all the CORs. So theoretically speaking, um, compromises on the way in the following few weeks, but at the same time, it’s, remember that coalition made sure to. Prepare the ground to move forward with the reform. So they promoted several legislations. Um, they, their proposed reform for the judge, um, appointment committee that I’ve mentioned before have passed the first round of votes and it can be completed in second and third round of votes, which is the process in Israel within 24 hours.

[00:31:11] Atar David: So they can decide to. You know, keep going with the reform today and be done with that one law tomorrow the same time. Um, the same goes with the law that prevents, um, the Supreme Court from overruling executive appointment of ministers. And in the meanwhile, the coalition. Have passed a law that determines that only the government, not the court, not the Israeli attorney general, can render the Prime Minister unfit for duty.

[00:31:45] Atar David: So that basically means that Netanya himself is, uh, pretty much immune to any judicial review from now on. So there’s, um, technically there’s negotiation going on, and, and, and there’s venue for co. But I’m. I would be, I would, I would closely monitor the situation and I, and I will closely

[00:32:09] Jeremi Suri: monitor the situation Well, and I hope all of our listeners will too.

[00:32:12] Jeremi Suri: What, what do you foresee for the future of Israel in the next few months and years? Uh, there’s no guarantee that Benjamin Netanyahu will remain, uh, prime Minister, right? He has a very narrow coalition. Uh, he does not have a lot of extra votes. Uh, and Israel has already gone through, I think, four elections, uh, ATAR in.

[00:32:32] Jeremi Suri: Five, two years. Five. Five. Alexa, I’ve lost p Um, so, so what, what do you expect, what, what, what do you expect to see, not just around this issue, but for Israeli democracy? Will there be a renaissance of Israeli democracy because this has raised awareness for so many people? Or is this, uh, a moment of decline for Israeli democracy?

[00:32:53] Atar David: Yeah, so I, you know, I, I have all the reasons to be pessimistic, right? Um, the. Government has complete control over the parliament and they can push forward the reform or overhaul whenever they want. Um, and I think the, their actions reveal that there are a lot of people in Israel that imagine the community that we call Israel in very different terms than I imagine it.

[00:33:22] Atar David: Having said that, I’m very optimistic once as a citizen of Israel, And twice As, and the second time as a historian. So as a citizen, um, You know, we started a conversation with, uh, Israeli founders unwilling to decide on one constitution, and I think a lot of people in Israel realize that now is the time to stop being afraid and start facing the long-term fundamental tensions in our society.

[00:33:53] Atar David: So that includes writing a constitution that includes stating the tension between the. Core definition of Israel is both a Jewish and democratic state. State, sorry. How do you balance that tension? I think that includes creating a more just economy and and political system that allows representation, but also encourages contribution and making fe people feel that they are not left out and, and finally maybe, you know, the biggest elephant in the.

[00:34:28] Atar David: Uh, people are now realizing that the Israeli state must decide what we wanna do with the Israeli occupation in the West Bank. We’re in sort of a preliminary situation. We’re in, we’re not annexing the West Bank, but we’re not granting Palestinian. Full independence. And I think people are grasping with the fact that we have to decide.

[00:34:51] Atar David: So that’s my optimism as a citizen, as a historian. Um, and as someone who’s following not only the Israeli media but international cover, I can tell that people all around the world realize that we’re in the midst of a critical juncture of democracy. And the Israel is not an isolated case, right? That democracies are being challenged globally and that, um, the more we fight for.

[00:35:17] Atar David: Preserving democracy. Democracy locally, the better chances that we have saving democracy as an idea global globally. So I’m, I’m quite optimistic

[00:35:29] Jeremi Suri: that’s, it’s rare for me to hear such optimism from you Atar, that’s really actually quite compelling. To me,

[00:35:35] Atar David: well, you only know me as a ta, right? So that was,

[00:35:41] Jeremi Suri: so there’s this other optimistic side of ATAR that I haven’t seen before, and this brings that out.

[00:35:45] Jeremi Suri: Um, and, and it’s your, what you say is, is compelling and, and actually quite. Quite logical. Um, w we always like to close the podcast as, as you know, by, by really trying to show how this history is useful and, uh, relevant, and you’ve already done that. Uh, but for many of our listeners who are not Israeli citizens or not necessarily invested, uh, deeply in Israel personally, um, what do you want them to take away?

[00:36:12] Jeremi Suri: What, what can our American and other listeners do to help democracy in Israel? Clearly, the United States can’t solve this problem. Plenty of our own problems at home, but, but what, what should we be doing?

[00:36:26] Atar David: Um, I think that that knowing and, and engaging with the situation in other places in, in the US as well, obviously, but with global trends and global changes is an inherent and and critical skill.

[00:36:47] Atar David: Modern citizens, um, and that you cannot expect to have all the answers to yourself. You cannot expect to know what’s the right thing to do and that, you know, you can, um, use the, the, the challenges and, and the strategies of of other places to try and improve. Um, not only the state of democracy and, and the state of society here in the US but um, um, al also in other places.

[00:37:25] Atar David: I’m not sure that, you know, um, talking to your representative and, and asking them to, um, support Israeli democracy, uh, would be, would have any influence on the Israeli. But it’s worth trying.

[00:37:44] Jeremi Suri: Well, ostensibly Atar, uh, and correct me if I’m wrong, my sense is that many Israeli citizens care deeply about what Jews and non-Jews in other parts of the world think of Israel.

[00:37:55] Jeremi Suri: Yes.

[00:37:57] Atar David: Um, yeah, for the most part, unless they’re criticizing them and then they, you know, they render them as, as, Just, you know, being provocative and they

[00:38:09] Jeremi Suri: Right, right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Zachary, as, as someone who, who has been watching this, and as someone who cares deeply about democracy and someone who is often in conversations with other young Jewish, uh, citizens in the United States and non-Jews about these issues, um, how does this discussion help you to think about democracy and what you and your generation of Jews and non-Jews can.

[00:38:33] Jeremi Suri: In this situation? Well, I think it’s

[00:38:35] Zachary Suri: a reminder why American Jews should care what happens in Israel. I think it’s a reminder of some of the amazing democratic institutions and civil society organizations that is Israel has created in the past decades. Um, but also a reminder of how fragile. Those are, and how important it is that we as American Jews, uh, speak up and, and speak out, uh, for democracy and justice in Israel.

[00:39:06] Zachary Suri: And in that sense, I think it should be a call to action, not just for American Jews, but for all young Americans, uh, because I think that our country and Israel are very closely tied together. And a threat to democracy in our country, just as it’s a threat to democracy in Israel. Also a threat to democracy in Israel is a threat to democracy in our country.

[00:39:27] Zachary Suri: And some of the same people are involved in both efforts.

[00:39:29] Jeremi Suri: Right. I think there, there’s, there’s a lot to that. Um, and I think, uh, some of the allies, we haven’t talked about this and, and ATAR was careful to stick to, uh, Israeli politics, but one could certainly argue that. Many of the allies of those pushing for this, um, remaking of the Israeli judiciary.

[00:39:47] Jeremi Suri: Many of their allies in the United States are also people who want to, uh, undermine certain institutions of democracy in the United States as well. Um, and, and I think recent wheat. And days have reminded us how important the rule of law is to democracy. And the rule of law is not about, uh, using the police to imprison a lot of people.

[00:40:05] Jeremi Suri: The rule of law is about a body of knowledge, a constitutional and legal body of knowledge, whether you have a constitution or not. That provides, uh, a set of backstops and protections for the rights of citizens that evolve over time. So that. Powerful group cannot tyrannize a smaller and vulnerable group.

[00:40:23] Jeremi Suri: And that’s the role of a Bill of Rights and a constitution in the United States and a court designed to protect those. And it’s the role in, in other common law traditions, uh, of institutions, uh, like the Israeli Supreme Court. And, uh, if you believe in democracy, you have to believe in the rule of law and therefore you have to believe.

[00:40:39] Jeremi Suri: And then independent judiciary, that’s not just a another arm. Of politics and, and I think both in the United States and in Israel and in many other societies, um, we need to understand the importance of the rule of law. What the rule of law means, and what the role of courts, uh, independent courts really is.

[00:40:55] Jeremi Suri: And, uh, perhaps we’ve forgotten out of our complacency in recent years, and perhaps ATAR and others in Israel and in the United States are reminding us. Um, I share your optimism, ATAR. I do think there’s been an unmasking of long developing trends and the historian in me says that, The raising of consciousness is actually the start of change.

[00:41:15] Jeremi Suri: Uh, and I think that’s what you were arguing as, as well. Thank you Atar, for joining us and for, uh, raising our consciousness and educating us in a fact-based and I think thoughtful and, uh, clear way about what’s happening, uh, in Israel and what that means for democracy. Uh, our topic, of course, uh, broadly defined.

[00:41:36] Jeremi Suri: Thank, thank you so much, oar, David.

[00:41:39] Atar David: Thank you guys so much for the opportunity.

[00:41:42] Jeremi Suri: Zachary, thank you for your poem on Passover 2023 and thank you most of all to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.

[00:41:59] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:42:19] Outro: See you next time.