This is Democracy – Episode 233: Presidential Law-Breaking

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United states, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:25] Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy.

[00:00:29] Jeremi Suri: Today we’re going to talk about the obvious issue, the issue that’s, um, in many ways dominating the news. It’s clearly not the only important issue nor the most important issue, but certainly, uh, an issue that marks, uh, a change in the historical trajectory of our country. And so it seems. Um, this is the, um, indictment of former President Donald Trump.

[00:00:50] Jeremi Suri: Our topic today is presidential law breaking. To what extent has this been a historical phenomenon before? What makes today different? Is it different in any way? And most important, our common theme weaken and weak out. What is the history of our democracy? Tell us that’s. In navigating and making sense of the world today.

[00:01:10] Jeremi Suri: Our goal today, as usual, is not to take a partisan position, but to better understand the nature of our democracy and how current events relates to the historical trajectory of our democracy and where we might go from here. We’re joined by a good friend and I think one of the most important people in the entire world writing on the presidency, someone who has covered issues.

[00:01:34] Jeremi Suri: Close to the present and far from the present. And someone who thinks, breathes, eats, uh, presidential politics and presidential history. Uh, this is, uh, our friend, the great historian, Jeffrey Engel. Jeffrey, thanks for joining us.

[00:01:47] Jeffrey Engel: Oh, it’s my pleasure. But you forgot to say, uh, did you say drinks? Eat, eat, drinks, presidential history, cuz that’s the most important.

[00:01:55] Jeffrey Engel: Yeah, I,

[00:01:55] Jeremi Suri: I think I did, but I, I, I, you were right to say I should underline that. Yeah, seriously. Uh, Jeffrey is a professor of history at Southern Methodist University where he’s the founding director of the Center for Presidential History. So when I say this man lives presidential history, he lives presidential history.

[00:02:14] Jeremi Suri: Uh, he’s the author and editor of at least 10 books. I have lost count. I, I counted 10 on my bookshelves, but it’s possible that I actually did miss one of his, uh, his tones. I actually have more than 10 cause I have double copies of a few of them, but, but I, I counted 10 different titles. Uh, here are my favorites and Jeffrey will know why these are my favorite.

[00:02:34] Jeremi Suri: Still my favorite might be Cold War at 30,000 feet. The Anglo-American fight for aviation supremacy, which was Jeffrey’s dissertation, his first, uh, book, an award-winning book. I also highly recommend his book on impeachment, uh, which is actually an edited volume, but he has a very important, uh, piece in there on the current.

[00:02:53] Jeremi Suri: Controversies around the current former president and then president, uh, who was impeached twice, uh, as well as other authors who talk about the history of impeachment of presidents. And then, uh, his really, I think, seminal recent book on George h w Bush, uh, when the world seemed new. George h w Bush in the end of the Cold War.

[00:03:12] Jeremi Suri: If you want to read one book that will tell you all you need to know about George h w Bush, that is the book, the book to read. Uh, and Jeff has written. Op-Ed pieces and various other articles on the presidency is often interviewed on these issues. So we have a lot to talk about today. Uh, before we get to our discussion with Professor Engel, we have of course, Mr.

[00:03:33] Jeremi Suri: Zachary’s scene setting poem. Uh, what’s the title of your poem today? Zachary

[00:03:37] Zachary Suri: Some Messes can only be cleaned up with time.

[00:03:40] Jeffrey Engel: Ah, nice.

[00:03:41] Jeremi Suri: That sounds like an excuse not to clean up a mess you’ve made at home.

[00:03:46] Zachary Suri: Well, I think time here is more like time served, but, okay.

[00:03:49] Jeremi Suri: Okay. Well, well, let’s hear it Maestro, please.

[00:03:54] Zachary Suri: When Capone went to jail, they caught him like a snail, not with a knife, but with a stick. Not for loss of life, but an accounting trick. And so for sleeping with not his wife and paying her not to blow the fi, the great dictator wannabe will be fell like an old tree. A proverb was once heard to say that the crimes of tomorrow will be sinned today.

[00:04:21] Zachary Suri: Today some janitor shall look up from his mop to see, arrive another trail of slop across his carpet. Brown not. Red to poke out from bulbous neck in orange head. And though the courthouse marble must always shine and there has been and shall be no smile. So fine as when that man mops up his line of slime.

[00:04:46] Zachary Suri: Remember, some messes can only be cleaned up with time.

[00:04:52] Jeffrey Engel: Nicely done.

[00:04:52] Jeremi Suri: I love it Zachary. I love it. I love this irony.

[00:04:55] Jeffrey Engel: Nicely done sir.

[00:04:57] Jeremi Suri: Uh, Zachary, what’s your poem about?

[00:04:59] Zachary Suri: My poem is about how sometimes our, our justice system can appear to work slowly or imperfectly, and it certainly does, but also, uh, I think, uh, what this moment teaches us is that the swift hand of justice, if you will, does come, uh, in one form or another.

[00:05:17] Zachary Suri: And that that moment is actually a moment, uh, of triumph for democracy and, and not. A moment of peril, or it shouldn’t be, at least

[00:05:27] Jeremi Suri: well said. Jeffrey, do you agree?

[00:05:29] Jeffrey Engel: I, I do. I think that’s actually a really, really important point. I’ve been really thinking about how, despite all the gnashing of teeth and renting of clothes we’ve had over the last several days, weeks, years, months of President Trump, there’s also a, a positive message that the, the legal system is functioning, albeit to Zachary’s point, it may take.

[00:05:52] Jeremi Suri: And what do you say to those who would argue that, um, doing this to a former president harms the presidency?

[00:06:01] Jeffrey Engel: I actually think that I’m gonna go glass half full on this one. I’m more and more impressed that this is while, you know, obviously a, a, a troubling if not sad day for Americans that any president should be.

[00:06:14] Jeffrey Engel: So, uh, Not only so charged, but also so embarrassed the nation, but more importantly, this is a positive moment that really demonstrates that it is true, that thing that we have always said, that no man in this country is above the law. Uh, even the president of the United States, I mean the Justice Department has for a long time been hesitant.

[00:06:35] Jeffrey Engel: Uh, and certainly the Federal Justice Department in particular hesitant of course to take this step of indicting a a, a current sitting or former president, but at the same time, We’ve really never had cause in the same way to indict a president. And so the fact that President Trump has himself crossed this Rubicon.

[00:06:57] Jeffrey Engel: Is sad, uh, is distress distressing, uh, is upsetting by means, which I mean crossing the Rubicon of committing a crime. Uh, although let me stress in this country, we’re innocent until proven guilty. Uh, but the Rubicon is not that The DA has acted, that’s actually a reversion to the mean of our country.

[00:07:18] Jeffrey Engel: Living up to its best principles that no man is above the

[00:07:21] Jeremi Suri: law. And do you think, uh, Jeff, that this is what the founders would’ve intended? Um, they of course witnessed some of them. Aaron Burr, a vice president being indicted. Right? You know that,

[00:07:32] Jeffrey Engel: that’s a really interesting, uh, question because the founders actually did discuss at the constitutional convention when they were having their broad discussion over the question of impeachment, they actually discussed, well, what should we do if a person.

[00:07:47] Jeffrey Engel: Lies to get office, which of course is what the basis of the charge here is for President Trump. Um, you know, obviously he has other charges coming down the pike, federal charges, election charges. But the one we’re talking about here on this indictment is for basically lying in order to cover up something that would’ve, hopefully, that would’ve presumably embarrassed and him and diminished his electoral chances.

[00:08:09] Jeffrey Engel: So the founders actually discussed this question. And they said quite explicitly. Well, if that’s the case, there are two remedies. The first is impeach. Well, this didn’t come up necessarily in time or with the political will to do anything. One president was in office so they still would, could impeach after the office, after leaving office, as we’ve already seen.

[00:08:31] Jeffrey Engel: Uh, but the second is they think that the remedies should really come through the voters that as to say the voters should not. Elect this person again once they find out. But then there’s a third caveat to all this, which is to remember that even an impeached and found guilty president, uh, can then be subject to criminal prosecution.

[00:08:54] Jeffrey Engel: For anything that he or she did in office. Uh, the, essentially the impeachment part of the process is just about removing the person from the office. But the Constitution is very, very clear that any crime that is committed while in the office, uh, is something that you’ll have to answer for that there are no man is above law, even the one who’s in charge of the time,

[00:09:17] Jeremi Suri: right?

[00:09:17] Jeremi Suri: There’s no hint of any immunity attached to the presidency from criminal prosecution, particularly at the state level.

[00:09:23] Jeffrey Engel: No, none. None whatsoever. And, and you know, the founders, of course, would’ve had a, a much different thought process about how they conceived of state verse verse federal. Um, but there was no discussion whatsoever, whatsoever that there, that being present of the United States or being a federal official would somehow immunize you from whatever estate might wish to do to you.

[00:09:47] Zachary Suri: Why do you think it is that we haven’t seen a moment like this in our hundred hundreds of years, uh, of, of, of history and existence as a democracy? Uh, we’ve certainly had moments when the behavior of the president’s, or at least the behavior of the presidency, uh, rose to the level of criminal behavior, uh, and potentially could have been.

[00:10:11] Zachary Suri: Open for prosecution by state courts or federal courts. Uh, and in some ways, many of those crimes probably would’ve been charged in other democracies. Why do you think it is that as a society, we have in the past at least been hesitant to, to charge presidents

[00:10:27] Jeffrey Engel: in that way? Well, you know, the reason that we’ve been hesitant to charge presidents is because, you know, we hold them up as the, the symbol of the nation united.

[00:10:38] Jeffrey Engel: There is the only office in the entire country that every American. Votes for. And so by and large, throughout our history, people have accepted the results of the elections and whether you agree with that person or not you, they would still claim them as a president. So, which is the same reason, to be honest, that we celebrate or mourn.

[00:11:00] Jeffrey Engel: Presidents when they pass away, uh, almost as though they were royalty because they’re the, the nearest thing that we have to a sovereign. So to, uh, I impugn the sovereign to, uh, bring the sovereign up on charges is historically in, in Western culture a really, really big deal. So we don’t wanna do it, but I think they’re actually three reasons historically why it hasn’t happened.

[00:11:24] Jeffrey Engel: The first is we’ve been largely. Most of the people who have been in office have been relatively straight shooters and the crimes or the difficulties that they have encountered legally have largely been ones that of the historians would need to debate. Uh, whether or not it was right for James Polk to go to war, whether it was not for right for George W.

[00:11:43] Jeffrey Engel: Bush to go to war, whether it was right for Herber Hoover to. Take his money out of the bank after he told Americans, keep your money in the bank. Um, those kinds of questions are, are rare, uh, overall. Uh, the second thing is frankly, we are seeing just much, much more scrutiny on the president, on every public official, but the President in particular.

[00:12:06] Jeffrey Engel: And of course, you know, Jeremy wrote the, the, the marvelous book to lay this out, the Impossible Presidency. One of the things that’s difficult about the current president is that it is really 24 7 and there are really thousands upon thousands of people who are following and investigating the president all the time.

[00:12:24] Jeffrey Engel: And I think since Ronald Reagan in particular, we have seen any president that crossed the line get immediately or ultimately. Slap back Bill Clinton. Great example. Obviously, bill Clinton in time though he was investigated for whitewater, that in time revealed something else illegal or inappropriate that he did.

[00:12:48] Jeffrey Engel: Same thing, I think with. President Trump in time, the truth of of misbehavior comes through and comes out. And that leads to the third reason I think that we’re seeing this today and have not seen this before. And that’s that we have a remarkably unrepentant. President, uh, we have a president who has never in his entire life, former president, excuse me, who said I’m sorry or I was wrong.

[00:13:13] Jeffrey Engel: Remember, you know, he, uh, famously took no guilt for anything that happened in the coronavirus, even though he was in charge, et cetera, et cetera. So the fact that President Trump left office railing against the system, trying to undo the system and thumbing his nose, The public and at the legal system, I think adds justification to the sense that this is somebody who needs to be brought to justice.

[00:13:41] Jeffrey Engel: I, you know, I, I can’t prove this, but I think it’s a, it’s a good thought experiment to say, what if President Trump had had like other presidents gone off quietly into the night? I don’t think there’d be nearly as much enthusiasm on the part of the district attorney and certainly not on the part of the Justice Department to prosecute him after leaving office.

[00:13:59] Jeffrey Engel: The fact that he continues to, again, thumb his nose, I think is a third vital reason why this is going on.

[00:14:06] Jeremi Suri: I, is it also possible. Jeff, just to add a fourth reason maybe that, uh, we had certain norms of behavior, uh, and that didn’t mean we didn’t have law breaking, but there were certain laws you didn’t break, certain things you didn’t do, and that maybe for a variety of reasons that we might talk about, you know, in the last 30, 40, 50 years, some of those norms have broken down.

[00:14:28] Jeremi Suri: Do you, do you see some of.

[00:14:32] Jeffrey Engel: You know, if, if we, if we, if we really think through what Donald Trump is being accused of in this New York indictment, um, he’s accused of having an extramarital affair, although I don’t actually think a fair is the right word. I, I don’t even know what to call it. Tri, let’s go tri.

[00:14:52] Jeffrey Engel: Um, he, he’s accused of, of having relations with somebody other than his wife. Well, he is certainly not the first president to do that. He’s accused of using money to try to, you know, keep his political viability around. He’s certainly not the first president to do that. So I, I think that things have changed.

[00:15:09] Jeffrey Engel: Not in presidential behavior per se, though. I do think Trump, by being unrepentant is exceptional. Even Richard Nixon was repentant at the end of the day. Um, but I think more importantly, there’s just a, a faster process to. The world now, frankly, than there used to be. And I, and I know it’s kinda lame for historians to say that because every generation thinks that their pace is moving faster than before.

[00:15:36] Jeffrey Engel: But I think we can demonstrably see it at this point that, you know, when President Polk did something, or when President Harrison did something, we didn’t do much. Or when President Lincoln did something, you know, only with Lincoln could you possibly have said that people are gonna find out about it throughout the country on the same.

[00:15:53] Jeffrey Engel: Uh, now people find out about it within three minutes and can do all their investigations. Their legal office. So I think we shouldn’t be surprised in some ways that the, the pace has, uh, increased the likelihood that people are going to question the norms.

[00:16:10] Jeremi Suri: But I wonder also if, if just related to that in building on your, your really important insight there, Jeff, you know, if, um, The amount of things the president is doing have increased and the amount of power the president has increased.

[00:16:23] Jeremi Suri: Uh, have we also seen more law, law breaking and particularly, you know, exceptionally more with Donald Trump, but perhaps with some recent presidents as well. I think of Iran Contra as well, uh, in addition to Watergate, which is the obvious example, the one I happened to be lecturing on to students today, actually, strangely enough.

[00:16:41] Jeremi Suri: Um, but you know, you think of that, you think of Watergate in the way, and you described this to some extent in. A book with George h w Bush, the way it en snared to some extent, two presidents. Right. And then, uh, you have, as you already mentioned, whitewater and various other issues with, uh, bill Clinton has a more powerful presidency, uh, created as one would might expect more opportunities and temptations to corruption.

[00:17:05] Jeffrey Engel: You know, I, I, I think that’s true, but you know, I think that temptation has always been there. What I think has really changed since George h w Bush, And this is qualitative, not quantitative. What I think has changed has been the vitriol of the opposition. That is to say, you know, people dislike Lincoln.

[00:17:26] Jeffrey Engel: Obviously if you’re in the south, people disliked F D R, obviously. Sure. If you, you were not, if you were not, if you were an economic royalist, if you will. But, um, the way in which people genuinely hate Bill Clinton and then. Other people genuinely hate George W. Bush, and then other people genuinely hate Barack Obama and then Donald Trump.

[00:17:48] Jeffrey Engel: I think that’s changed. I really do think that that has changed and not for the better, obviously. So it, it in a sense, uh, it’s not that presidential action has changed so much, but rather that the, the. Necessity of doing something to the person, either while they’re in office or now after they’re in office, is much greater than it used to be, if you will.

[00:18:11] Jeffrey Engel: It’s a, it’s a case of people allowing their hatred and their sense that the opposition is un-American and enemy to override whatever remaining sense of national unity they may have.

[00:18:25] Jeremi Suri: It, it’s a really interesting point that we’ve actually forgotten to some extent in the debate about Trump’s current indictment.

[00:18:33] Jeremi Suri: Th that he actually called for the prosecution and indictment of his predecessors, uh, of Hillary Clinton, but also of Barack Obama. He’s called for that on many occasions, which actually to me is a historian. It’s hard to, it’s hard to find cases of presidents. In the past who

[00:18:49] Jeffrey Engel: did that? That is, that is actually a very, very good point.

[00:18:51] Jeffrey Engel: I had not considered that. I think that’s actually really, really important. But there’s also something else to point out that, and again, I, I feel like we have, have. In some ways over the last week in particular, reverse the direction of causality that we should be concerned with, which is to say, we’re asking how did the pre, how did the district attorney come to do this?

[00:19:13] Jeffrey Engel: What does it mean that the district attorney did this? When what we really should be asking is, what does it mean that a person committed a crime in office? And my best example of that is the counterfactual or the counter case that Barack Obama had equally fervent enemies. As Donald Trump, and as you point out, Barack Obama also had a leading contender for the White House yelling for him to be indicted, and it never happened.

[00:19:42] Jeffrey Engel: Why did it never happen? Well, I, the simplistic answer is I think the right one cuz he never broke any laws. Uh, at least none that were prosecutable. I mean, you could ac you know, make different questions about the laws of laws of war and the war and the war on terror, but that’s a different realm than we’re talking about here.

[00:19:58] Jeffrey Engel: That’s in his, in his behavior as president. So, you know, it is important to remember that. One reason that we are having this discussion is that we have a law breaking president and or former president in this case, in again, in a sense until proven guilty. But I do wanna add one more thing on this point, which is the example that.

[00:20:21] Jeffrey Engel: Or the critique that Republicans in particular are coming up with now, which by the way is the exact same critique that Democrats had during the Clinton years, is that, oh my goodness, these guys were out to get him from the start. They were just following him like a hawk. They were just waiting to jump on any mistake he made, and it’s not dissimilar, it seems to me, to when you, when the police set up a speeding trap, you know, when the police set up a speeding trap, you know what happens if you don’t speed, you don’t get.

[00:20:50] Jeffrey Engel: Right. So yes, people are watching like a hawk. Yes, the police set up a speeding trap, but if you don’t speed, you will not get caught. Uh, I realize that that’s a bad example when we consider the racial politics of policing these days, but work with me on this one. So, uh, at the very least, I think it tells us that President Trump had to do something.

[00:21:11] Jeffrey Engel: Different because his predecessors, had they done something, would’ve been equally enthusiastically, uh, prosecuted by people throughout the, uh, Republican side. Right.

[00:21:23] Jeremi Suri: You

[00:21:23] Zachary Suri: mentioned earlier the, the office, the informal role of former presidents in, in sort of shaping our national conscience. Uh, what do you think, uh, this moment says about the institution of the former?

[00:21:39] Zachary Suri: President, uh, do you, what is, what is the significance that, that this prosecution and this this moment is occurring post presidency? What distinguishes it in that sense from the prosecutions which occurred during former President Trump’s

[00:21:54] Jeffrey Engel: time in office? It’s a, it’s a great question and I think it’s important to remember.

[00:21:59] Jeffrey Engel: We are in a bizarre time these days in as presidential history goes in terms of having so many former presidents and have, and up up until very recently, you know, we had George h w Bush as well, and of course, at least as, as we are taping this, president Carter is still with us. That’s really unusual to have that many.

[00:22:19] Jeffrey Engel: Um, you know, first caveat, whenever we’re discussing the presidents, it’s important to remember that we have a very, very small sample size. So any one individual can screw up the data in, in any way. Um, but the idea of having multiple post presidents around who could get together and do things to demonstrate national unity was simply not possible before you had people living this.

[00:22:43] Jeffrey Engel: So I, I, I think that’s a, that’s a critical element when we consider the concept of the ex presidency. But I do think that this has changed things only in the sense that we’ve also never had an ex-president who didn’t think that their role in politics was. Now, obviously presidents never leave politics even when they leave office, you know, from Dwight Eisenhower to to George W.

[00:23:11] Jeffrey Engel: Bush, and I could come up with a hundred other examples. Presidents are still important, influential. They’ll, they’re deal makers within the party. They’re, they’re voice carries weight. But we’ve never before had a former president, well, I guess back to Grover, Grover Cleveland, uh, who considered themselves still part of the day-to-day political future.

[00:23:32] Jeffrey Engel: Of the country. And so I, I think that that has, is a more fundamental change in the post presidency than what has happened to Donald Trump in this context.

[00:23:42] Jeremi Suri: You know, I think back, Jeff, just building on that point to, uh, Laura Lawrence Walsh, who was the special prosecutor for Iran Contra, uh, with Ro, with Ronald Reagan.

[00:23:52] Jeremi Suri: And he makes the point in his memoir Walsh does that they actually considered, uh, filing charges. The former President Ronald Reagan, based on Iran contour because they had found that he had perjured himself or they alleged that he perjured himself, but that he was so old in losing his mental facilities.

[00:24:10] Jeremi Suri: That, and this is a, a choice prosecutors often make, uh, is not to go after someone who’s really at the end of their, of their life. And I think one of the reasons, back to your earlier point that we haven’t. So many examples of what we’re seeing with Donald Trump of former presidents being prosecuted for crimes is that a very large number of them until recently did not live very long after the presidency.

[00:24:31] Jeremi Suri: And when they lived along, even when they lived after the presidency, they weren’t seen as political players anymore. They were, they were in retirement. Uh, Donald Trump, of course, is very

[00:24:38] Jeffrey Engel: different. I have to believe they, if Donald Trump. You know, first obviously accepted the results of the election in 2020, but then, you know, done what presidents are expected to do, you know, in the 20th century and 21st, which is gracefully leave office and cash in on memoirs and, and speaking tours and raise money for their presidential libraries that we would not be having this discussion.

[00:25:04] Jeffrey Engel: Uh, it’s the fact that he kept himself as a, as a current agent, if you will, that I think makes it really. Hard to to avoid. Uh, dealing with his legal past when he continues to have a political future. And I mean that not in the sense that the DA is trying to ruin his political future, but rather that the DA simply, you know, can’t ignore a person who refuses to be quiet.

[00:25:31] Jeffrey Engel: Someone who’s more quiet about their

[00:25:31] Jeremi Suri: crimes. Right. And someone who potentially continues to commit crimes. Right. That would be the Mar-a-Lago document issue. I mean, it, it’s, it, it’s not that he’s simply a past criminal or alleged criminal, it’s that he’s an alleged continued criminal, uh, that also motivates law enforcement.

[00:25:47] Jeremi Suri: It seems to me, which would be different from e even to some extent, to Richard Nixon, who, you know, e he remains a. Someone who issues opinions but is not a political player, not seeking to go back.

[00:25:59] Jeffrey Engel: Well, and let, to go back to your example of Reagan, and this is really, frankly what I’m about to say, is more in your chronological Bailey wick than mine.

[00:26:09] Jeffrey Engel: So I really want your opinion on this. My sense is that remembering that Reagan came largely in the wake of water, of of water, That there just was not a lot of enthusiasm, not only to prosecute an old man, but also there was not a lot of enthusiasm to say, really we’re going to, you know, have hearings and impeachments potentially for the next elected Republican.

[00:26:36] Jeffrey Engel: Right. Uh, you know, the absent Watergate, Iran Contra would’ve been even bigger, I would argue. And so it’s been a while since.

[00:26:45] Jeremi Suri: That’s right. That’s right. I think that’s, I think that’s definitely part of it. Jeff, do you think that law, breaking by Presidents, however, is a, is an old story? Is, is it, is it that the scale might have changed but that it’s part of the history and maybe something that as historians and citizens, we should spend a little more time study?

[00:27:07] Jeffrey Engel: I. Don’t, I have to say I’m, I mean, I’m more troubled by, by presidents, you know, exceeding their constitutional authority. Than I am by law breaking. And of course the lawyers, if they were involved in this discussion would say, of course everybody knows that, you know, there is such a thing as sovereign immunity that the president can’t be prosecuted for his actions in office if he’s following the duty of being the president.

[00:27:30] Jeffrey Engel: It’s only if he goes beyond the professional obligations of the office that he could be prosecuted any sovereign. So, um, I, I’m hard pressed to think of a lot of cases where there was a president who. Uh, genuinely broke the law. Uh, and of course, as I say that, I’m thinking of examples now. I mean, but they’re, they’re hard to prove.

[00:27:57] Jeffrey Engel: So, you know, for example, Lyndon Johnson, did Lyndon Johnson violate campaign finance law as it was at the time, however, limited. And did he, you know, ensure that dead people in Texas had the right to vote as long as they voted for him? Yeah, probably. Uh, do we have as much definitive proof as a prosecutor would like?

[00:28:16] Jeffrey Engel: Probably not. Uh, and so I, I think we have a lot more examples of presidents who exceeded the authority of their office. Constitutionally than presidents who necessarily broke a particular statute.

[00:28:30] Jeremi Suri: Right, right. I guess the question is, and I agree with you, I don’t think we should replace, uh, you know, the lessons that we give on the Cuban Missile Crisis with discussions of, of Kennedy’s law breaking, even though one could probably fill a lot of lectures, uh, with that, the Cuban would be much more.

[00:28:45] Jeremi Suri: Yeah, it would be though the Cuban Missile Crisis has its entertainment value as well as anyone. Um, but I wonder though, if there’s a point to be made, not to degrade presidents, but a point about power and about, about the importance of a free press and the importance of, uh, recognizing that powerful people often do try to cut corners sometimes with the best of intention, sometimes for purely narcissistic reasons.

[00:29:09] Jeremi Suri: And, What our system depends upon, uh, is an active effort to hold them accountable, uh, while not at the same time necessarily denying them the ability to, to carry out their duties.

[00:29:22] Jeffrey Engel: Yes, but I’m, I’m also, I guess I’m, I’m, I’m more impressed by and large in the, in the aggregate. Again, small sample size that most presidents actually did not cut too many corners, at least in the official actions.

[00:29:37] Jeffrey Engel: Um, and certainly 20 post World War II and 21st Century presidents in particular. Again, I would go back to the point that there being. Watch like Hawks. I’ll give you two examples. Uh, the first is you were very kind to to mention my book on George h w Bush and the end of the Cold War. I have been asked frequently.

[00:30:00] Jeffrey Engel: Okay. You spent 10 years in the archive. What secrets did you dig up? Like what surprised you? What was shocking and, and the answer is I’m actually shocked that there was nothing shocking. You know, I got a lot of different of detail. I got a lot of nice quotes. I got a lot of nice memorandum that helped explain things.

[00:30:18] Jeffrey Engel: But there’s only one thing that happened to the George HW Bush administration that I can think of where I said to myself, wow. Nobody knew that at the. That’s to say people knew that there was Soviet American tension, people knew there was Chinese American tension. It’s not a shock. Uh, and so, uh, to give another example, um, I’m a little hazier on the details of this, but you know, when, um, Sandy Berger was National Security Advisor and President Clinton was trying to deal with Yugoslavia, somebody in one of their meetings said, boy, you know, wouldn’t it be great if.

[00:30:55] Jeffrey Engel: You know, the guy just died. Meic and Berger stopped the meeting in order to say for the record, it is illegal to assassinate someone, and we are not discussing that. Now, who in the room was going to report that? I don’t know. But presidents are so worried in the post Watergate era. The things that they do might get found out that I think they take extra precaution.

[00:31:22] Jeffrey Engel: Now, granted that was a national security advisor, not a president. But the point is that’s the general tenor of most White House houses and certainly not the Trump White House. And remember, can I go back for a second? Sure. Um, remember President Trump played fast and loose with the law openly in a way that was.

[00:31:42] Jeffrey Engel: I think really remarkable. And the examples are Legion. My favorite is during his first year in office, he met with Native American leaders about, uh, potential oil drilling on their lands. And he basically said, you know what you need to do? You need to ignore the, the epa. You need to ignore the law. Just trust me, ignore it.

[00:32:01] Jeffrey Engel: I’ll make everything fine. Um, and he said this in front of, You know, so the, the fact that President Trump was willing to see himself as an more of an royal or imperial president than most perhaps should not surprise us, that he winds up getting ultimately caught on the, on the bad side of a prosecutor.

[00:32:22] Zachary Suri: I think what’s interesting too about this particular case is that what, what’s at hand is, is crimes largely committed before taking office. So I wonder, do you think there’s, if there’s, if, if there’s a, a sense, then an. In, in which we need to hold our candidates for o for office to a higher legal standard.

[00:32:43] Zachary Suri: Um, even if they are to be constrained by the office of the presidency, they can still hijack our political and electoral processes,

[00:32:52] Jeffrey Engel: uh, as president, former President Trump is accused of doing. So, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, maybe I’m, I’m Pollyannish about this, but I’m still gonna fall back on the idea that Trump.

[00:33:02] Jeffrey Engel: Exceptional, uh, maybe sue generous, which is to say the normal laws of political gravity have never applied to him. So, you know, previous presidents, if there was a whiff of. Corruption. If there was a whiff of an impropriety, um, that previous presidential candidates, excuse me, that was largely enough to scuttle their campaign or at least damage their campaign, nothing ever damages Donald Trump’s campaigns, uh, that we’ve seen.

[00:33:34] Jeffrey Engel: Or at least he doesn’t react in the same way as as normal. So I’m not necessarily thinking we need to hold future presidents to a higher standard. I think what we need to do is hold future presidents to the regular standard, which is to say, when you find someone who’s sleazy, see John Edwards, uh, that should derail their election.

[00:33:56] Jeffrey Engel: Uh, you know, see Gary Hart, you know, people who commit scandals and crimes o often intertwined. That’s usually the end of their, their presidency. Find me the scandal that that did end Donald Trump. I, I’ve yet to, Right.

[00:34:11] Jeremi Suri: No, that’s very well said. Very well said. Jeff. As you know, we, we always like to close our podcast by doing what, what you and I like to do in the classroom and, and, and strive to do in our historical writing, which is to try to glean some something useful from this historical perspective to help move beyond the headlines and, and see historical paths to the future.

[00:34:33] Jeremi Suri: That we’re missing in our sometimes obsession with the, the details of the moment. Uh, what do you see, uh, particularly positive that might come of this for the presidency moving forward?

[00:34:46] Jeffrey Engel: I think it’s, it’s remarkably simplistic, but important and maybe even a little, uh, corny, but I do think it’s really important that we have a vivid demonstration here, that we are a country of.

[00:35:04] Jeffrey Engel: And that no man or woman is above the law. But the same token, no man or woman should be below it. I know. I, I don’t think that we are setting ourselves up for a precedent that any president in the future will be indicted for the pennies of things cuz look how long it’s taken to gather the evidence in this case.

[00:35:22] Jeffrey Engel: And of course, president Trump has, I think, more troubling cases coming down the line in terms of January 6th and the Georgia election. So it is, Comforting to me that there is still people in this country who are committed to the ideal, that everyone should be held accountable before the law, and that he or she should be judged by a jury of their peers.

[00:35:51] Jeffrey Engel: Um, and by the way, I, I, because I’m pollyannish about this and corny about this, I wanna say one more time. Uh, as you and I are talking on April 4th, president Trump is an innocent man. You know, innocent until proven guilty is really important to remember. In this context. If we wanna hold people to the law, we have to also afford them the constitutional rights that they are due.

[00:36:17] Jeremi Suri: Right. And, and built into what you just said so beautifully, Jeff, is the, uh, corollary, which is also that the presidency is not a monarchical institution, that presidents are, uh, citizens just like all of us. Yep. And, um, that they’re not to be treated. Uh, differently, especially when they’re running for office or out of office.

[00:36:36] Jeremi Suri: Um, it’s, it’s interesting cuz many Americans, including Henry Kissinger, worried that Nixon’s resignation would hurt the presidency and hurt the image of the presidency abroad. Um, many people have have heard, uh, individuals say this, but I think the historical evidence is pretty clear. It actually strengthened the respect people had for the presidency abroad, because many particularly living in authoritarian societies looked and said, wow, in the United States, The people can force a president or encourage him to resign when he is broken the law or appears to have broken the law.

[00:37:06] Jeremi Suri: We can’t do that in our own society. That’s a great point. That’s a great point. And, and, and, and if what you’re saying is right, and I think it is, uh, reaffirming the rule of law, uh, sends a very important message not just to ourselves, but to, to everyone around the world, to, to those living in China and Russia and elsewhere, that, that we care about that more than the power of an individual.

[00:37:26] Jeremi Suri: Right.

[00:37:28] Jeffrey Engel: You know, if you really want to get philosophical about it, if, if we believe that the founders set up a, a system, that would be a constant struggle for. You know, I don’t like it when we talk about balance of power in Washington cuz they were much more competitive in that they really set up a system where each side should be always grasping for power.

[00:37:47] Jeffrey Engel: And if you think that there’s problems with the federal judiciary at this point, it’s Supreme Court becoming more politicized than ever. If you think that the Congress failed in its two attempts to reign in presidential misdeed by failing to impeach the President, I’m, I’m gratified that there are other elements of power in our society that have stepped up to try.

[00:38:08] Jeffrey Engel: Counter, uh,

[00:38:09] Jeremi Suri: malfeasance, right? The fed, the, the states under our federalist system, stepping in where the federal government has failed, perhaps correct. Exactly. Zachary, what do you think? Uh, we need to come to you on this now. I mean, you’re, uh, part of a large number of young people watching all this happen in real time.

[00:38:28] Jeremi Suri: Um, does, does this moment, uh, as Jeffrey and I are been sort of implying, does it sort of encourage a return to an emphasis on the rule of law or does it encourage more cynicism, or how do you think about this? I think

[00:38:43] Zachary Suri: it does encourage cynicism to a certain extent. Uh, but I think hopefully it’s also, uh, in some, in some sense, a nice, helpful dose of disillusionment because I think we often have, have this sense as young people that our political leaders are never held accountable or are never, uh, or never face the music, uh, if you will.

[00:39:06] Zachary Suri: And I think that this moment even, uh, if, um, Even if former President Trump is not convicted of what he is accused, I think this moment, uh, where the allegations are to be held and tried in a court of law, I think this moment will hopefully while also reinforcing our own cism and cynical understanding of our own leaders, hopefully reinforce, uh, the importance of maintaining a system, which at the best of times is able to hold, uh, leaders, uh, who commit acts of misconduct, uh,

[00:39:39] Jeffrey Engel: accountable.

[00:39:40] Jeremi Suri: I love it. I love it. You’re basically saying that it might reinforce our cynicism about the individuals in power, but also reinforce our sense of possibility and hope in the system that the system can be better than the individuals, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, which is, I think exactly, uh, how the, uh, Federalist papers are written, right?

[00:39:56] Jeremi Suri: I mean, I think it’s Madison who says, if we, if men were angels, we wouldn’t need government. I was justing about that quote. Exactly right. We as historians, we come to the same documents all the time.

[00:40:07] Jeffrey Engel: Oh, we only, well, really only. Seven points.

[00:40:13] Jeremi Suri: Oh gosh. This has been a, uh, a really helpful and insightful discussion. Uh, professor Jeffrey Engel. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I want to encourage, uh, all of our listeners to read your works. Uh, thank you so much for being with us. Uh,

[00:40:28] Jeffrey Engel: well thank you guys for doing a, a wonderful podcast and a, and a good service for d.

[00:40:33] Jeremi Suri: We, we are trying, we’re all doing our part. And, uh, we’re fortunate that you have your center and all the great work you do at S M U. Zachary, thank you for your, uh, humorous, insightful, and provocative poem as always. And thank you, most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.

[00:40:59] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.