This is Democracy – Episode 228: Turkey Earthquake

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United states, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy.

[00:00:28] Jeremi Suri: This week we have the somber duty of focusing upon yet another, uh, recent tragedy in our world. Uh, and this is the tragedy of the, um, earthquake in Turkey and in Syria that, uh, recently occurred. It was a seven point. , uh, earthquake followed by 7.5 and many other aftershocks. And as I’m sure all of our listeners know, this has led to, uh, really inhuman devastation of so many parts of Turkey and Syria that we have all seen images of, but I don’t think we can fully grasp.

[00:01:04] Um, we are fortunate today to be joined by an expert on the region who has also been in the region, who can help us to underst. both the implications of this earthquake, but also the history and politics around it. As always, on our podcast, we wanna understand how history influences our moment and how history can offer us some pathways forward as well.

[00:01:27] We’re fortunate to be joined by Dr. Gnu Toll. Uh, she is the founding direct. Of the Turkey program at the Middle East Institute, a prominent thing tank in Washington, dc. She’s the author of a brand new book, Erdogan’s War, A Strong Man’s Struggle at Home and in Syria. Uh, the book was just published in January, so her timing is very good and, uh, she is taught at both George Washington University and the National Defense University.

[00:01:53] I should say that, uh, Dr. Toll is, uh, her family is from the, the city of sson, which is near the city of Anta, uh, which is one of the large cities that was devastated by this earthquake. And she was in, uh, SSON and traveled to Anta, uh, as soon as the earthquake occurred before returning to Washington, dc Her family, among many others, sustained losses, uh, of loved ones, uh, during this earthquake.

[00:02:21] Um, Ul, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:02:24] Dr. Gönül Tol: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:26] Jeremi Suri: Before we turn to our discussion, uh, with Dr. Ul Toll, we have of course, uh, Zachary series, um, scene setting poem. What is your poem about today, Zachary?

[00:02:36] Zachary Suri: Uh, well, my poem is about, uh, trying to imagine this, uh, earthquake and, and, and how devastating it must be to, to, uh, to.

[00:02:45] Zachary Suri: Shaken out of bed in the middle of the night, um, to the news that your city is destroyed or, or to see one’s, one’s family members and, and one’s neighborhood in complete collapse. And just trying to grasp how devastating that must be.

[00:02:59] Jeremi Suri: Right, right. Well, let’s hear your, your thoughts

[00:03:02] Zachary Suri: for . I awoke at two and walked the dark streets, finding the port in the dim light, opening its gaping mouth to the sea.

[00:03:14] Zachary Suri: I felt each cobblestone as if a solid, eternal presence. This one saw the first man kiss, the first woman, this one, the first automobile. I must have fallen asleep somewhere around four before I awoke with a cobblestone on my head and a hunger. I feel still to this. The world is eating itself, but we have nothing to eat.

[00:03:37] Zachary Suri: The earth is eating us and eating our children. I can no longer hear them scream. Hmm.

[00:03:44] Dr. Gönül Tol: That’s beautiful.

[00:03:46] Jeremi Suri: Um, Ola, if, if you are comfortable, can you share your experience and, and reaction as with us?

[00:03:54] Dr. Gönül Tol: Sure. Um, Jeremy, we were at the time in Maren, um, if Maren is a southern Turkish city, which is only a fewer drive from Uck, which was hit really badly, um, in the earth.

[00:04:10] Dr. Gönül Tol: I was with my sister and her four year old daughter. Uh, we woke up, um, around four, 4:15 AM I thought I was in a dream. I quickly realized that it was an earthquake. Uh, people say that it lasted, um, 30 seconds, but it felt like eternity. So I grabbed my, my sister, who was in shock and her four year old daughter.

[00:04:35] Dr. Gönül Tol: Then we ran. And, uh, ran a few blocks to reach my, my parents’ home. Then we received a phone call from my sister’s husband who said that Uck had, uh, been leveled to the ground and that his family members, uh, were trapped under the rubble. And then we drove, we took my father’s truck and we drove tota. And it was, um, it was like a war zone.

[00:05:09] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, there were, um, dead bodies on the streets, people screaming, people trying to pull out, uh, their loved ones. Um, uh, it was, uh, it was a tragedy.

[00:05:23] Jeremi Suri: And I, I understand that you had loved ones who were trapped in, in the rubble. Is that correct?

[00:05:28] Dr. Gönül Tol: That’s right. My, my sister’s husband’s entire family, his parents, Were there.

[00:05:35] Dr. Gönül Tol: His, uh, his cousins, uh, his, um, uncles, sons, his entire family were trapped.

[00:05:43] Jeremi Suri: And, and were you able to get them out? Well,

[00:05:45] Dr. Gönül Tol: we pulled out the father first and he was alive. Uh, we couldn’t reach the mother. She did not hear heroes. Um, so we pulled him out. Um, and we waited. We waited for 48 hours for rescue workers to arrive.

[00:06:05] Dr. Gönül Tol: And when they finally did, they told us that they couldn’t help us, uh, because they had received instructions, uh, that they had to focus their rescue effort, rescue efforts, so, uh, elsewhere. Um, and as a result, um, the father died. Is that. Thousands of others.

[00:06:27] Jeremi Suri: I’m so sorry to, to hear of, of, of your loss. Um, you, you were also involved in rescue efforts in 1999, which I think was the last big earthquake to, um, hit this region.

[00:06:41] Jeremi Suri: It was not as large an earthquake as this one, uh, did not cause as much death, but it was also quite a devastating earthquake. How would you compare this experience to what you witnessed firsthand in 1999?

[00:06:54] Dr. Gönül Tol: That’s right. I was a college student at the time in nearby Ankara, the Capital. And we quickly organized, we mobilized a network of college students and we went there, uh, during Earthquake Zone, which was in Northwestern Turkey.

[00:07:12] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, we, uh, were there as part of a large, uh, network of NGOs, uh, distributing aid. Food to the victims. Uh, and at that time, uh, the government was also law to respond. Um, but by the time we arrived, which was shortly after the earthquake hit, uh, there were Turkish troops on the ground, um, taking part in search and rescue efforts.

[00:07:41] Dr. Gönül Tol: There were civil society organizations, um, like, like us volunteer groups. Distributing aid, uh, to the victims. And there were government rescue agencies. Um, and yet at the time, the government, the coalition government came under, under criticism for its, uh, slow response. They came late, but they were there.

[00:08:08] Dr. Gönül Tol: Um, and this time around in Uck for 48 hours. And I’ve heard from, from survivors in other cities that. Then we were longer, seven to two hours for state rescue agency to arrive. Uh, Turkish troops, uh, were not deployed. Uh, and there were no civil society organizations, uh, working on the ground. So for almost three days, there was no one to.

[00:08:42] Dr. Gönül Tol: Which was significantly different from what I had seen, uh, in 1999. And to me, I think that was the most striking picture of. WANs New Turkey. You mentioned

[00:08:55] Zachary Suri: the political moment, uh, surrounding the 1999 earthquake. W could you explain for some of our listeners who might not know this, this history very closely, uh, how that moment and that disaster, that tragedy changed the politics of Turkey?

[00:09:11] Dr. Gönül Tol: The 1990s, uh, were considered a lost decade. Um, many of us, uh, thought that the 1990s were like a curses. Um, there were coalition governments, uh, dysfunctional institutions and economic crisis. Uh, there were bombs exploiting everywhere. So 1990s were pure chaos. and the 1999 earthquake came against that background.

[00:09:47] Dr. Gönül Tol: So the government’s slow response were seen by many, uh, living in Turkey. And the final proof that institutions in the country were not working, the state was not responsive to the needs of its, its people. And then you had. Cobbling among coalition partners that made decision making very difficult. Um, so the country, many of us thought that was not really being governed.

[00:10:25] Dr. Gönül Tol: That was the perception. And then came the 1999 earthquake and everyone thought, this is it, this. The whole system is bankrupt and we need a way out of this. Uh, Dan came, Alan and he promised exactly that.

[00:10:46] Jeremi Suri: And, uh, I think it’s fair to say from your description, you don’t think he’s delivered.

[00:10:52] Dr. Gönül Tol: Well, it was clear to me and to millions of others last week that, that he did not, uh, he promised after the 1999 earthquake that.

[00:11:03] Dr. Gönül Tol: That things were going to change radically. And in many ways they have, but in some ways they haven’t. Uh, in the 20 years he’s been in power, uh, we don’t have coalition governments anymore. We don’t have any other person other than AAN who makes decisions. So he calls the shots, and that is radically different from the 1990.

[00:11:32] Dr. Gönül Tol: and yet there’s still corruption in the country. Uh, there is bad governance. And on top of that, we don’t have institutions that we had in the 1990s. So he came on that promise. He made that promise, and many of us believed him. So when he came to power in 2000, He, the promises that he made, I think, struck a nerve.

[00:12:06] Dr. Gönül Tol: This was a country that was tired of coalition governments, a country that was sick of all the established political parties, uh, sick of the establishment. They thought a small, corrupt elite was running the country and they had no idea, um, what people. Were how people, how much they were suffering. So Ardon said that, you know, I represent the people.

[00:12:37] Dr. Gönül Tol: I am the people. We are going to get rid of the small, corrupt elite, uh, and I’m gonna fix things. I’m gonna fix institutions. I, I promise you, a more democratic, more prosperous country. State institutions are the servants of the people, not the other way around. So we, we believed him. Uh, and yet, uh, last week, um, once again I saw that he took the 1990s and all the problems associated with the 1990s and took them to a.

[00:13:18] Dr. Gönül Tol: You

[00:13:18] Zachary Suri: mentioned the small corrupt elite. There have been many reports in the American press, and you’ve written about the corrupt elite around Erdogan, which in some cases, in many cases was responsible for the poor condition of buildings. Uh, do you see Erdogan and, and that sort of corruption, uh, as, as one of the central causes of this disaster?

[00:13:42] Dr. Gönül Tol: That’s certainly right. I know. I think that’s the bigger story here to tell. The Turkish economy under Arwan wrote high on, on the back of the construction boom. So he enriched a small circle of close, uh, associates from the construction sector by awarding them. All infrastructure projects without competitive tenders or, uh, proper, uh, regulatory oversight.

[00:14:07] Dr. Gönül Tol: And these companies, uh, uh, embarked on a massive building spree, constructing infrastructure and homes in earthquake hotspots without following proper building co codes in hot tie, for instance. That’s where my, my sister and her. Um, uh, live one of, and it’s also one of the hardest hit areas in the country, residential buildings, hospitals, and even the local branch of the Turkish disaster and emergency management presidency, which is called in Turkish, all built by Ardans, uh, cronies were either leveled to the ground or suffered massive.

[00:14:48] Dr. Gönül Tol: And the Townson Airport, uh, built on top of a fault line by a company, again, closely tied to Ardon, was split into by the earthquake. Um, another problem is he oversaw a sweeping amnesty program that forgave faults in millions of buildings across Turkey. So he now wants us to believe that this was a natural disaster that no go.

[00:15:16] Dr. Gönül Tol: In the world could have responded to it in, in, in any different way, and that we should just accept it as faith. But what I see and what I have been seeing, both as a, a, a person from Turkey and also a scholar, uh, studying Turkey, uh, that this was largely a manmade disaster. The things that Artan did and the things that he hasn’t.

[00:15:45] Dr. Gönül Tol: I think paved the way for last week’s tragedy.

[00:15:49] Jeremi Suri: A And now more than a week since the earthquake hit. Have you seen a change in the government’s response? Has the Turkish government been better at, at getting to help people and also providing shelter and food for those who have lost their homes?

[00:16:05] Dr. Gönül Tol: It’s better than the first few days, but it’s still not enough.

[00:16:10] Dr. Gönül Tol: There are now, uh, a thought is, is there on the ground. , but in many cases it’s making things worse. There are now volunteer organizations, thousands of people poured into these earthquake zones to help the victims. You have international agencies, you have foreign country delegations, uh, taking part in search and rescue efforts.

[00:16:34] Dr. Gönül Tol: You have, uh, opposition around municipalities. Uh, they mobilized all their resources. So there are a lot of people, right. On the ground, but the government’s actions, even now at this very moment, are making things harder for all those people who are there to help the victims. So AFA is, uh, wants to be the sole coordinator of everything because Awan does not want anyone else to take credit.

[00:17:04] Dr. Gönül Tol: So, um, our thought is obstruct. Uh, this, these other agencies, uh, efforts to the point, some of them, uh, have already left the country. Uh, so, uh, there is now a, a government agency on the ground, but they’re not, they’re not doing, uh, lot to help the victims. So they were not only too slow to respond, but they’re disorganized.

[00:17:31] Dr. Gönül Tol: And also add to that, the fact that a. Sees this in a critical turning point and wants to take, uh, all the credit. That’s why now Afad is, I think, obstructing, uh, the efforts of, of other agencies who are trying to help the,

[00:17:51] Jeremi Suri: and just to remind our listeners, AFAD is the government relief agency, correct?

[00:17:56] Jeremi Suri: That’s right.

[00:17:57] Zachary Suri: Um, and. You mentioned earlier that, that even in the, the response post-disaster, post earthquake, uh, you’ve seen rampant corruption and there’s this been a perception at least, that ahad is not responding to all, all, um, emergencies in the disaster zone equally. Is that correct? That’s

[00:18:16] Dr. Gönül Tol: right.

[00:18:17] Dr. Gönül Tol: And I’ve experienced that firsthand. So my family, um, had to wait for 48 hours, and I remember seeing that. He was wearing a kind of uniform, uh, which made us think that, you know, he, he’s here, here to help us. So we rushed, we went up to him and begged for help, and he asked for a, an address. He said, do you know where this address is?

[00:18:47] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, because I’m here to. The people who are living in that address. And I was sent by a member of Parliament from Istanbul. So that, just that very moment, uh, highlighted the fact that how corrupt the whole country. Has become,

[00:19:09] Jeremi Suri: that’s astonishing to me. I just wanna make sure that, that I understand this right, that you were waiting for help for members of your family.

[00:19:19] Jeremi Suri: Um, I think your, your sister’s, uh, husband’s family who were in the rubble and an aide worker arrived or someone from an aid agency, and they said they would only help someone at a different address who had some connection to someone in parliament and they did not offer you assistance. , am I, am I understanding that correctly?

[00:19:38] Dr. Gönül Tol: That’s right. It’s hard to believe, but it’s Right.

[00:19:41] Jeremi Suri: I, if I might ask, how did you react at the time?

[00:19:45] Dr. Gönül Tol: Um, I started crying and I started, my sister started screaming and, uh, uh, my sister’s husband, uh, he wanted to calm us down because he thought if we protested, then that help would never. , uh, but in the end, uh, his parents and his entire family died.

[00:20:13] Zachary Suri: And that’s been, you mentioned protesting, uh, that there’s been a whole nother story too, uh, of late that the Edwin regime is, is, is spending its time or devoting its time, more to the suppression of, of protest and dissent then to the continued rescue efforts, which today are still unearthing. Uh, , uh, people trapped in the rubble.

[00:20:36] Zachary Suri: Uh, is there, is, is, does the focus of the regime at the moment seem to be that much more on the sort of its own political stability?

[00:20:44] Dr. Gönül Tol: That’s right. They’re trying to spin the narrative. So one of the first things they did was not deploying Turkish troops, not sending about, uh, the, the rescue agency, uh, not doing anything to help the victims, but the first thing they did, Uh, to work on this video, this propaganda video.

[00:21:08] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, they basically said, this is the disaster of the century. Uh, and there was nothing we could have done better. Uh, so a any government in the world would’ve been helpless in the face of such a tragedy. So that was the very first thing. And the presidency’s communications depart. Um, sent this note to, uh, foreign, uh, to Turkish embassies across the world, asking them to control the narrative.

[00:21:40] Dr. Gönül Tol: Telling them you should tell people your contacts and to the public that Turkish state, Turkish government have, they’ve done everything in their power. To respond to this efficiently. So those were the very first things that they did. And, and later, the second thing that they did was they slowed down Twitter because AAN was coming under so much criticism on social media.

[00:22:09] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, and, and remember, Twitter played a critical role in the, in the early hours because Twitter became a platform where people organized help channeled. To the regions affected, they were, Twitter was used as a platform, uh, for people to disseminate info about the whereabouts, uh, of their loved ones. So Twitter, access to Twitter information shared on Twitter was really critical for search and rescue efforts, and yet Arlan decided to fold it.

[00:22:43] Jeremi Suri: It, it sounds like classical authoritarian behavior, which is about holding onto power and as you say, spinning the narrative more than serving the people. And I, I know this is something you’ve also studied as a scholar. Are, are, are you surprised?

[00:22:59] Dr. Gönül Tol: I’m not, uh, this is Wan’s mo. Unfortunately, when a disaster hits the.

[00:23:06] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, the man who loves the camera so much, he disappears from public view for a few days. He lets his cabinet ministers handle the situation so he can blame them if anything goes wrong. Uh, but this time again, he, uh, went to the, uh, earthquake, um, regions, uh, three days after the earthquake hit. Um, usually he takes.

[00:23:35] Dr. Gönül Tol: But I think this time, uh, the, the scale of the tragedy was so big that he, uh, felt that he needed to go. Uh, but so this is, this is how he reacts to, to disasters, to crises, to problems. He, as if he’s not the one who makes all the decisions in the country, uh, he blames it on other people, even the opposition parties.

[00:24:01] Dr. Gönül Tol: There was a time I remember where he blamed your position for the country’s economic problems. He’s been in power for 20 years and just today he said, give me one another year. I’m gonna fix this. And your positions response to that was spot on saying we gave you 20 years, uh, and you destroyed the country.

[00:24:23] Dr. Gönül Tol: We are buried under the rubble, so we don’t have one day to give to you, let alone a.

[00:24:32] Jeremi Suri: My understanding is that there’s an election that is supposed to come soon. Uh, I know there’s also talk of Erdogan trying to postpone the election. Do you think, uh, the events of the last few weeks, as you’ve described them to us so vividly, so courageously, do you think this will change things in in Turkey?

[00:24:51] Jeremi Suri: Will citizens who have supported Erdogan in the past not support him? Now what, what, what do you foresee?

[00:24:58] Dr. Gönül Tol: You know, uh, Jeremy, uh, disasters have political implications for leaders, but it depends on the type of regime that you are you live in. If you live in a perfect democracy, uh, maybe I shouldn’t say perfect.

[00:25:15] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, I was going to talk about, uh, uh, hurricane Katrina. Uh, in the US if you live in a democracy, you pay a political price because you rely on, uh, A large, uh, coalition to stay in power and people expect you, uh, to, to protect them from, from, from disasters. And when you fail to do that, you pay a political price for that.

[00:25:42] Dr. Gönül Tol: Uh, but in, in auto autocracies, it’s not quite straightforward. Uh, autocrats can, because they control media, they can spin the narrative, they can postpone the election. Um, they can do all kinds of things to make sure that they don’t pay a political price. So in this context, uh, elections, um, I know scholars call Turkey a competitive authoritarian regime, so it’s, it’s still authoritarian, but it’s competitive, meaning that there are still elections.

[00:26:18] Dr. Gönül Tol: They are not always free and fair, but there are still elections, which means alwan is going to pay a political. The elections are scheduled to take place in May. Um, under these conditions, it’s impossible to hold those elections in may. According to the prosecution, Edwin, um, can only delay for a month, which means he gonna have to hold the elections in June.

[00:26:44] Dr. Gönül Tol: And in that case, I think he will pay a price. And your position’s, uh, strategy, the steps that it has taken so far after the earth. Uh, I think, uh, were the right moves. They changed their narrative. They put the blame on AAN and they mobilized their resources at municipalities. They sent them to, uh, to the disaster zone.

[00:27:07] Dr. Gönül Tol: So the opposition, I think, stands a good chance against AAN if the elections are held soon. But LAN is trying to post, perform the elections for a year, and even in that case, I think he’s gonna have difficulty. But I think I see his chances better if the elections are held in a year from now, because he’s probably going to use financial aid and, and international financial aid too, to rebuild those cities.

[00:27:35] Dr. Gönül Tol: He’s talking about starting the construction immediately. And he might turn things around. Do

[00:27:42] Zachary Suri: you think that Edwin will change as a leader, or at least that his policy will change domestic policy and foreign policy as a result of, of this disaster, but also the extreme political embarrassment that this must be for his party and, and for himself as, as a leader?

[00:28:00] Zachary Suri: Well,

[00:28:00] Dr. Gönül Tol: judging by his initial reactions, uh, I don’t think he’s capable of empathy. As my, um, while my sister and her family were trying to pull the bodies of their loved ones out, uh, out of the rubble to give them a proper burial, he was calling those who complained about the small state response dishonorable or national tv.

[00:28:24] Dr. Gönül Tol: Though this man cannot empathize, all he cares about is staying in power and he’s gonna do everything in his power to do. Uh, and he will use foreign policy as well as he has done in the last 20 years. And that’s the main argument of my, of my book. He’s gonna use foreign policy to consolidate his power, uh, and at all.

[00:28:53] Dr. Gönül Tol: He’s gonna take steps and that includes, again, un constitutionally postponing the elections for a year. He’s gonna do everything in his power to, uh, to keep his. On the

[00:29:05] Jeremi Suri: country. This is such a, um, difficult subject to talk about and we, we so appreciate, uh, your willingness to, to speak. So frankly, with us, we always like to close our, um, Podcast with a, um, discussion of how this knowledge that we’ve shared, how this history and contemporary analysis can, can help us to think about positive things we can do going forward.

[00:29:30] Jeremi Suri: What should the US and the European Union be doing now? And also, what should citizens who are listening and want to help, what should they be doing now,

[00:29:42] Dr. Gönül Tol: I know angry. In the western world, um, with his policies, with his anti-Western narrative. So I understand if Western governments, um, are not too enthusiastic about, uh, extending a helping hand.

[00:30:03] Dr. Gönül Tol: But this is not about Lan, this is about the people of Turkey, and I think the people of Turkey, uh, need help from the international c. There are great, uh, NGOs, Turkish NGOs on the ground. One of them is called . It’s run by a, a rock, uh, a rock singer. It’s doing great job on the ground. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

[00:30:29] Dr. Gönül Tol: So please consider donating to, uh, NGOs, not the go. But NGOs and volunteer organizations on the ground to help the victims. And

[00:30:41] Jeremi Suri: can you spell the, uh, the organization you recommended?

[00:30:45] Dr. Gönül Tol: It’s a h. B a p.

[00:30:49] Jeremi Suri: And, and I think as you say, this is certainly a way we hope to get aid directly to people who, who, who need it.

[00:30:56] Jeremi Suri: What about government policies? What, what should we be asking our leaders in Washington and Berlin and London and Paris and elsewhere? What, what should we be asking them to do? Uh, well,

[00:31:06] Dr. Gönül Tol: I know Turkish government is working with, uh, western governments to secure aid. Uh, and I’ve heard World Bank, uh, pledge.

[00:31:16] Dr. Gönül Tol: Financial aid. So I think all these governments working with ADONs regime, they just wanna make sure that the, the, the financial aid that they’re giving or they’re considering to give to Turkey does not empower the very man who cause this destruction.

[00:31:38] Jeremi Suri: I mean, it seems to me we need to also. Encourage him to hold elections soon.

[00:31:44] Jeremi Suri: Yes,

[00:31:45] Dr. Gönül Tol: that’s right. But it’s a tricky topic because in, in Turkey, uh, anti-western sentiment is, is very strong. And, uh, any statement about the elections could be regarded as, uh, international medaling. So that’s, uh, that’s a, uh, I think, uh, risky mold for foreign governments to make. I

[00:32:05] Jeremi Suri: see. I see. So your, your advice would be that that should be pressure behind the scenes, but not in public.

[00:32:11] Jeremi Suri: That’s right. Zachary, you’ve listened to this discussion and I know you’ve been following this story closely, as have many, many of your colleagues and other young people. Um, do you think this is something that can, um, motivate many young people to, to, to try to get involved and to help? I think so

[00:32:29] Zachary Suri: I, I think this is hopefully a moment where even in the midst of this tragedy, young people in the United States in particular, um, can learn about or will be forced to learn about Turkish politics, Turkish policy, and the Turkish people.

[00:32:45] Zachary Suri: And I think that there’s a, a real obligation, uh, for young people who, who care about these issues, to pay attention and, and to, to seek out these personal human stories that we’ve heard. .

[00:32:56] Jeremi Suri: Right. And maybe even to help families that we know in our own communities, right. That, that like, uh, like UL’s family, that, that have relatives who, who are mm-hmm.

[00:33:05] Jeremi Suri: who are there suffering, uh, at, at this moment? Uh, uh, Dr. Gnu told, I, I, I can’t tell you how grateful we are for you. So courageously and, and honestly sharing your experience as well as your enormous scholarship on these topics. I, I think you’ve provided us with a, a, a deep enrich. Understanding of this difficult, uh, political and social moment in, in, in Turkey.

[00:33:31] Jeremi Suri: Thank you. And, and really our best wishes to your family and, and our hearts go out to, to you and, and the thousands, the tens of thousands of other Turkish citizens and Syrian citizens. We have not talked about Syria at all. Uh, those who, who, who suffered in, in this.

[00:33:48] Dr. Gönül Tol: Thank you so much for giving me the platform to tell this

[00:33:51] Jeremi Suri: story.

[00:33:52] Jeremi Suri: Thank you, Zachary, for your moving poem as always. And thank you, most of all. To our loyal listeners, please remember to donate if you can, uh, to, uh, a, ah, Bob, I don’t know if I’m pronouncing it right, a H B A P. And please also, uh, donate to other organizations, provide assistance to those who are suffering.

[00:34:15] Jeremi Suri: And also when you have a chance, please pick up, uh, Dr. Gnu Toll’s book, Erdogan’s War, which clearly will give you the background to understand as she has explained to us the political failures that have made this difficult moment so much more difficult for citizens in Turkey and elsewhere. Thank you for joining us for this week of This is Democracy.

[00:34:40] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its development Studio in the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Kini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this as Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.