This is Democracy – Episode 225: Brazil

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[00:00:29] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy. This week we’re going to discuss, uh, recent and historical events in Brazil, which is, uh, many of our listeners know the largest country in, uh, south America. But a country that is largely unknown to many Americans, uh, yet a country that’s been in the news quite a lot recently with a recent election, a very close election and recent violence that in some ways seems to mirror, at least it seems to mirror the violence of January 6th, uh, in the United States, where a candidate who lost the election, uh, his supporters in this case, uh, former President Saros supporters, um, attempted.

[00:01:07] Jeremi: It’s, it appears to, um, Stop, uh, the new government from functioning, uh, in Brazil, or at least appear to try to express their anger through violence in ways that did seem to echo January 6th of the United States. Uh, we’re not gonna just focus on the present today, however, we’re going to look as we do every week.

[00:01:26] Jeremi: But how the history of Brazil, uh, helps us to better understand and make sense of what we’re seeing today, we’re joined by my colleague and friend, uh, Seth Garfield, who is one of the foremost historians of Brazil in the United States today. Seth is a professor of history, uh, here at the University of Texas at Austin, and he’s the author of three major books among many articles and various other things.

[00:01:52] Jeremi: Uh, his first. Indigenous struggle at the heart of Brazil, state policy, frontier expansion, and the Havant Indians. I hope I pronounce that right. Uh, 1937 to 1988. His second book, uh, with a wonderful title in search of the Amazon, Brazil, the United States, and the Nature of a Region. And then his third book, which I think picks up on some of, uh, Seth’s writing on commodity issues is, uh, most recently published, uh, hot Off the Presses, uh, Guana, how Brazil embraced the World’s Most Caffeine.

[00:02:27] Jeremi: Plant and the idea of a caffeine rich plant at five o’clock sounds actually quite enticing right now. I have to say.

[00:02:37] Jeremi: Seth, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:02:40] Seth: Thank you for having me on the podcast. Uh, Jeremy, it’s really a pleasure.

[00:02:44] Jeremi: Uh, before we turn to our discussion, uh, with Professor Garfield, of course, we have, um, Zachary Ciz scene setting poem. What is the title of your poem this week? Zachary Brazilia Lament.

[00:02:56] Jeremi: Let’s hear it.

[00:02:58] Zachary: Uh, As I sat with a coffee in the public square, I basked in the memory of somewhere, a place where grass was shining green. At dawn, we watched the stars float by on the cool lawn. I believe it was then that you said to me that all our words are buzzes from a single bee. It stings. It stings to think the world has never changed, and the ghostly myth of violence forever remain.

[00:03:27] Zachary: As I woke up this morning, I wanted pictures on the wall that would make me remember our world before it all. Where in my child dreams, the Giants prd, the fortune tellers whispered, and the quiet soldiers danced. Wake up. Wake up. I think I hear them say, you will see this history again someday. Why we didn’t listen, why we didn’t care.

[00:03:52] Zachary: I do not care to think it was either here or there. We watched it and we gasped. We watched the world collapse. How mightily intrusive. How principally unfair. Sir, may I have an orange juice or perhaps a dare beware. Our words are what only beggars seem to find. A vengeance on the cruel anic for the kind.

[00:04:16] Zachary: Pens have moved mountains. They have swallowed swords and again, erected reasoning for their ghastly wars. And yet though we can see the world is rotten. We so clearly have forgotten despite our thousand different popes that filled, again with garbage hopes, our minds become but empty. Chs we go storming presidential palaces,

[00:04:43] Jeremi: I I love the crescendo there at the end, Zachary. And, uh, the references, which are all over the place. What is your poem about? My poem is about

[00:04:52] Zachary: the. The ways in which lies, uh, like we saw in the, uh, aftermath of the Brazilian elections, uh, how lies unchallenged, uh, confessor and cause violence very quickly actually.

[00:05:05] Zachary: And, and, and also how important it is, uh, actually to, to, to speak about democracy in a way that’s meaningful, approachable, and accessible. To people. I a theme that I think is very relevant when we’re talking about one of the largest, uh, democracies on

[00:05:23] Jeremi: earth. Excellent. Zachary, uh, Seth, as, as a historian, someone who’s devoted much of your life to studying this country, how, how have you reacted to many of the issues Zachary references in his poem, the Recent Disorder of Violence, uh, uncertainty in Brazil?

[00:05:41] Seth: Well, first I wanted to congratulate Zachary on that beautiful poem. I reacted the way many did with just shock and sadness. Um, you know, to see a country, uh, whose democratic institutions are under sie, to see a recourse to violence, a remediation of a fair election and is, is heartbreaking and it’s frightening.

[00:06:04] Seth: Um, and I think for those of us who study Brazil and who have a special as we say, Tenderness for the country because of its culture and the warmth of its people for the most part. You know, to see this discord and to see this acrimonious in tearing a society apart is just been, has really been devastating.

[00:06:25] Jeremi: And is this something you expected, Seth, or have you been surprised?

[00:06:30] Seth: So this is a good question. Um, now in retrospect, um, when I think about the dramatic transformations that Brazil, I think has undergone over the last several decades, uh, since the return to democracy, which for those of us heralding or hoping.

[00:06:48] Seth: A more democratic and progressive Brazil. Were very heartened by these changes because Brazil made I think great strides in terms of creating a more progressive society, a more, um, democratic society, um, challenging, very deeply entrenched, um, structures of patriarchy, of homophobia, of racism, of anti indigenous.

[00:07:10] Seth: Um, this all seemed very heartening. Of course there were those in Brazil who thought otherwise and very much challenged, I believe, by these changes, by these transformations. And so this backlash, um, in some ways is, uh, comprehensible in terms of their fear and their anger, um, towards, uh, change in society.

[00:07:31] Seth: It threatened the status quo, um, and upset the way, uh, the, the, the order or the hierarchy is that long characterize the society.

[00:07:41] Jeremi: You know, it’s something that’s always fascinated me, Seth, and, and I come at this with, with so much ignorance. I’ve never actually visited Brazil and, and hope to some, some point, you should organize this.

[00:07:50] Jeremi: It’s time to do so. Jeremy, you have to get there. . I, I have every reason to want to, from everything I can tell, as you say, it’s a warm party atmosphere and I definitely wanna be there. Um, but for my ignorance, Seth, I mean. It strikes me that there’s a contradiction, right? It’s such a, Brazil is such a diverse, multi-layered society, uh, multiracial, uh, filled with so much diversity of opinion and perspective that you can see even from the outside, but yet for so long, um, it, it’s had a right wing repressive government.

[00:08:24] Jeremi: Um, h how do we, how do we make sense of that contradiction? I’m sure it’s probably central to your scholarship in many. ,

[00:08:31] Seth: um, are you asking about the legacies of authoritarianism or the root, the deeper roots of authoritarianism in Brazil? Yes. Um, yes. Yes. So this is an interesting question too, because, um, I think that can be answered on various levels.

[00:08:44] Seth: I think in terms of its formal politics, Brazil’s democratic traditions are quite, um, Young, I mean, in the longer history of Brazil, you have a period from 1946 to 64 prior to the military coup where you did have a multi-party democracy. Um, that, uh, with competitive electric fair, free and fair elections, et cetera.

[00:09:08] Seth: But as we know, which. Culminated in the military crew in part in, in no small part, in response to some of the progressive policies that the leftist center governments in the 1960s were trying to enact. Then after the return to democracy in 1985 and the Constitution of 1988, you’ve had a a long spell almost.

[00:09:27] Seth: 40 years basically, of a strengthening of civil society of, you know, free and fair elections of, um, progressive policies that, as I said before, that challenge many of the traditional hierarchies. So that’s sort of the formal, like, uh, macro political, I would say overview, but it on a broader level, I, on a broader cultural level, I guess you could.

[00:09:50] Seth: Um, in Brazil, like in most countries, I think there’ve always been different factions. Some more progressive, many, some more reactionary. And in some ways, um, uh, looking back over Brazil’s the long over, uh, many centuries of Brazilian history, there were always sectors in society that advocated for, uh, better treatment for indigenous peoples during the colonial period, or for the abolition of slavery in the 19th century or for women’s suffrage in the 20th century.

[00:10:19] Seth: Um, who were up against more conservative groups, um, and faced, um, you know, backlash for, for these attempts at democratizing Brazilian society. So that maybe can answer the, can give a, a broader overview, uh, in which we can place, I think this more recent swing. Um, To the right, uh, under the presidency of Bolsa.

[00:10:43] Seth: And these, the lingering kind of resentment that, um, culminated in that, uh, violent insurrection in the beginning of January, uh, in Brazil. Could you maybe

[00:10:53] Zachary: for our American listeners, uh, which I think make up a large portion of our, of our listenership, though not, not exclusively American, uh, could you explain maybe the relationship historically, not just between the government of the United States, the government of Brazil, but between the political movements, uh, and the political trends, social trends as well between Brazil and the United States?

[00:11:15] Zachary: You’d think just looking at a map that they’d probably be quite closely.

[00:11:20] Seth: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. There’s been a lot of his, uh, historical scholarship that’s been done recently that’s focused on connections between Brazilian United States, um, during the 19th century. And there you see, um, right wing influence and more progressive influence.

[00:11:37] Seth: You have, um, efforts on the part of. Um, slaveholders in the United States, um, the southern states as we know to expand their influence, or in Latin America and in Brazil because Brazil, um, you know, after the abolition of, um, uh, slavery in the English colonies, um, Brazil, Cuba and the United States are the sole slave holding, um, Uh, places since you have an empire, you have a, a republic Yeah.

[00:12:03] Seth: Republican. You have a colony of Spain. So there were connections there, but there were also connections among abolitionists, um, in the United States or between abolitionist United States, uh, and Brazil. And I think these connections and these ties persist of course into the 20th and the 21st century. We know from some interesting scholarships, scholarship that’s been done on the far right.

[00:12:26] Seth: Um, And conservative, uh, religious movements in the United States and in Brazil, that there were close connections between these groups, um, in terms of sharing ideas, publications, um, um, strategies, basically to influence, uh, the political realm. So the two countries are often compared, Zachary correctly, because they’re the, not only cause they.

[00:12:51] Seth: The two largest countries of the Americas and are both, um, bear the legacy of slavery and, um, racism and racial hierarchies and, uh, our continental nations that whose frontier expansion came at the great expense of indigenous peoples. But because you, you have shared, um, connected movements that link the two countries in terms of their politics, uh, and their political orient.

[00:13:17] Jeremi: And, and it’s worth reminding our listeners that Brazil is one of the few countries that maintains slavery. If I’m, if I’m not mistaken, Seth, three decades after the end of the US Civil War. Is that correct?

[00:13:29] Seth: Uh, it’s 1888. So it would be two, a little more than two. Yes. A little more than two. Certainly it was, it was, it was the last country in Americas to abolish slavery and,

[00:13:39] Jeremi: and that was also a violent process as it was in the United States.

[00:13:46] Seth: Uh, no, actually it wasn’t so much. Um, okay. And that’s one of the diff Yes, that’s one of the differences in terms of the way abolition was achieved, uh, towards the end of slavery. You did have, um, enslaved peoples running away from the plantations and their resistance certainly contributed to undermining.

[00:14:03] Seth: Um, slavery, which was already a sort of moron institution in Brazil because of the way in which it was being gradually phased out through free womb laws and through other types of laws that were restricting, um, uh, slavery. And of course the transatlantic slave trade, which was critical to the reproduction of the, uh, of slavery in Brazil had been.

[00:14:22] Seth: Cutoff since 1850 basically. But in the case of Brazil, um, the process was not as violent, certainly not as the United States. We had a civil war, and in some ways, um, this reaffirmed in the minds of elites and conservatives. This idea, um, Of a peaceful nation, a nation in which, you know, racial harmony and democracy was, um, unique and exceptional, certainly from the United States, which is has, which has had its liabilities, of course, for Afro descendant populations in Brazil because they’ve come up against this idea that there is no racism in Brazil or there is no racial discrimination.

[00:15:01] Seth: And in fact, um, just connecting this to more contemporary trends in Brazil, what I would say, Since the early two thousands, you have affirmative action policies that are enacted by the left of Center Workers Party. And these did bring more Afro Brazilians into universities. And this is one of the changes that I mentioned earlier on in the podcast in ways in which transformations in Brazil’s society of the last decades did, were noteworthy in empowering historically, um, disempowered groups, but also produced a type of backlash.

[00:15:34] Seth: Um, as those in Brazil who felt disadvantaged by these changes or cheated, um, that, uh, uh, and, and, and, um, in turn, um, supported more right-wing governments that were critical, uh, of these progressive policies.

[00:15:51] Jeremi: So Seth, is that how you primarily see Bolsonaro and his movement as a backlash against what in some ways were successful progressive changes?

[00:16:01] Seth: I think there are a number of factors here. Um, Bolson Nado had support for, for, for various reasons. I would say the most immediate or most sensationalist reason was, um, as you might know, this tremendous corruption scandal known as Operation Carwash, um, which involved billions of dollars in graft and kickbacks and brought down, um, the.

[00:16:24] Seth: Brought down large segments of Brazil’s political class, of its business class, and it, uh, discredited completely, um, uh, key aspects of the political system because the corruption was so rampant and so egregious and moto in many ways. Char, uh, excuse me, he, um, cashed in on. Um, popular discussed that Brazilians felt to see this corruption running so rampant when basic public services were not being tended to.

[00:16:56] Seth: And, um, you know, poverty still afflic, large SWA of the population. So that was, you know, a, a significant factor. He also played a great deal on the rise in crime and violence. Particularly in Brazil’s cities, Brazil’s murder rate is three times as high as the United States. So it’s a factor that primarily affects poor people in Brazil.

[00:17:15] Seth: But for the middle class, this is a significant concern and he could play to a get tough on crime sort of, um, approach. Um, but. I do think that these other changes that I mentioned earlier in terms of more progressive policies that have been put into place regarding affirmative action, environmental protections that angered, you know, large landowners, those very on paper in terms of.

[00:17:43] Seth: Um, creation of indigenous reserves and protective indigenous lands, um, special protections that were extended to the descendants of, uh, runaway enslaved peoples. Um, the legalization of, uh, same sex marriage, all of this had happened or had been intensified, we could say, in the decade, in the several decade.

[00:18:02] Seth: In the two decades, um, prior to. Election. And I do think that, um, there were, that was another source of his support. And of course, one thing I didn’t touch on was the, the, the importance of the evangelical, um, Christian vote in Brazil, which is also a product of transformation that has occurred in Brazil over the last half to, uh, half century, in which Brazil’s, um, Protestant and largely evangelical Protestant population or Pentecostal population is.

[00:18:34] Seth: To almost 30% of Brazil’s overall population. And some say it will ultimately surpass the Catholic population of Brazil. And many of these voters tend to be conservative in their, um, cultural politics, in their traditional values, and also in embracing more individualistic, um, beliefs about, um, hard work and capitalist work ethic and these types of.

[00:19:01] Seth: I, I have to

[00:19:01] Jeremi: ask Seth, because it does seem, at least at the surface, to have a certain parallel with the United States, why the growth of this evangelical movement over the last half century?

[00:19:12] Seth: So this, um, is connected. There’s a number of answers for that question as well. Um, part of it, , I would say a lot of it has to do with the changes that were unleashed, um, during the military government.

[00:19:25] Seth: So first of all, because the military government had a very, um, conservative political and, and cultural agenda, um, and was certainly threatened by the progressive Catholic church and liberation theology. Um, they turned to, um, Evangelical leaders, uh, and right wing Catholic leaders actually to support and legitimize their regime.

[00:19:48] Seth: And they rewarded these, um, leaders and these communities, I guess you could say, by um, extending, uh, TV and radio licenses that gave evangelical leaders a greater. Um, ability to disseminate their message. Um, far flung across Brazil. So that’s one factor. Also under military rule, Brazil, uh, uh, switches from being a predominantly rural nation to a predominantly urban nation.

[00:20:18] Seth: So more than 80%, it might even be more than 90% of Brazil’s population at this point is urban. So you had a very. Infusion of population from the countryside as people are coming to the cities looking for work in industry or in, um, government, many end up in, um, service and informal economy. But, uh, you have an uprooted community in many ways.

[00:20:43] Seth: And this is also concomitant to this. You have a large migration to the Amazon region. Um, Uh, those who are seeking, you know, a better life on the frontier. But I think what these two large streams of migration have in common is you have a sort of uprooted communities or, or populations that are seeking to form new communities in urban areas.

[00:21:03] Seth: They’re often terribly underserved by both the government as well as the Catholic church in terms, in terms of social services. And you have evangelical churches moving in, uh, providing these services, but also, you know, giving people. New, new, new ways to look at life, to look at, um, theology, to look at, um, uh, questions of, of justice and, and to make sense of the sort of wrenching changes that they’ve been through.

[00:21:32] Seth: And I, so I think all of these factors and probably many more, um, you know, contribute to this, um, Rapid spread. This is a process we know that’s going on, you know, globally in Africa as well. And this is also a process. Getting back to your question, Zachary, in which, um, evangelical groups in the United States work have worked closely with, um, uh, those in, in Brazil in terms of sharing publications, leader, uh, conferences, leadership, the sort of global movement that has been very important I think in shifting.

[00:22:03] Seth: Um, Geopolitical scene internationally as you have more conservative groups that are, um, manifesting themselves in, uh, through political, uh, power and through political movements.

[00:22:16] Zachary: Speaking of, of of big geopolitical problems that need to be solved, uh, how, what role does environmentalism play in this? I think many Americans, uh, probably hear about Brazil in the context of the Amazon rainforest, uh, and particularly, In the Bolsonaro administration’s decision to allow more deforestation, uh, where does the protection of the Amazon in particular, but also the sort of nascent conservationist movement of the past two decades, uh, take place in this sort of political timeline you’ve lined out for?

[00:22:49] Seth: That’s a great question as well. Thank you. That also has its roots, I would say. Um, In the military period because, uh, under the military government in 19 64, 19 85, the regime made a very concerted push to develop the Amazon as a geopolitical project. There are many factors. Um, there was a sense that, um, The wealth of the Amazon mineral or other types of, um, agricultural ranching, et cetera, could certainly contribute to, um, the development of Brazil.

[00:23:21] Seth: But there was also this sort of paranoia that if the region were left un quote unquote undeveloped, less populated, um, that it could be seized by other countries or invaded. This had been a longstanding fear among, uh, Brazilian, um, military officials and, and national. There was also an effort to relocate, uh, poorer populations from, um, the more settled region.

[00:23:47] Seth: The more historically longer, uh, settled regions of Brazil, at least by Europe, Europe, European and African descendant peoples to move them to, uh, the Amazon and thereby, thereby diffuse land conflicts that have been festering. So with that comes deforestation because the, the military builds. One of the leading sources of deforestation, roads, allowing for greater penetration by cattle ranchers, by loggers, et cetera, uh, by settlers.

[00:24:18] Seth: So, With that came a backlash and sort of a, um, uproar over the accelerated rate of deforestation, which now reaches about 17% of the Amazon region, which is quite alarming. Um, many climate scientists speak of the Amazon reaching a so-called tipping point. Uh, uh, if this type of transformation, um, of the ecosystems.

[00:24:44] Seth: but that, um, environmental story, if we wanna see some of the positive things that came out in the last decades. You know, in many ways during the two thousands you had, um, a reduction, especially under the presidency of Lula, um, of deforestation in the Amazon, you had more effective government agencies, environmental agencies.

[00:25:06] Seth: That were, um, overseeing or monitoring deforestation, you had greater reservation of indigenous areas. So there was a, a very concerted effort to, um, set aside, uh, land for environmental purposes for indigenous peoples, for the descendants of, um, Afro. Under bol son, you had this odd and very eerie, certainly from a historian’s perspective, you know, resurrection of that 1960s, 1970s jingoistic, um, rhetoric regarding the Amazon, it’s not really a surprise because BOL son was a open and very.

[00:25:45] Seth: Enthusiastic admirer of the military regime and often called for return of the military, uh, a military takeover or, and spoke very glowingly about the repression and the, uh, you know, the order that the military instituted under, its during its two decades, uh, in ruling the country. But that, um, That language that the Amazon belongs to Brazil, that we have to, um, you know, we’re not gonna let foreign environmentalists or anthropologists or Leonard DiCaprio don’t tell us how we should, how we should, you know, This is our, this is our land.

[00:26:25] Seth: This is a question of national sovereignty, et cetera. This really got, um, ramped up under Bolson and Bolson did do a great deal of damage because it was not just the rhetoric. And the rhetoric is certainly contributes to violence as we know. But it also, um, what also characterizes government was the fact that, uh, these protections were rolled back.

[00:26:49] Seth: Most critically, the funding for many of these agencies that were instrumental in, um, slowing deforestation was slashed. So there was a very conscious and concerted effort to, um, eviscerate the agencies that, uh, had been and, and the agencies that had been empowered to. Reduced deforestation and to look after the most, the traditional and the most vulnerable populations of the Amazon region.

[00:27:16] Seth: So under Lula, there’s, you know, he’s vowed to stop this. He’s created a new ministry for indigenous affairs. He’s appointed Marin Silva, who’s a very, uh, renowned and, um, Respected, uh, environmentalist and a former minister of the environment for Brazil as his minister of the environment. So there’s certainly a, an effort on, on the new government to try to reverse course, but many wonder, um, with all the damage that’s been done, um, how effective the new regime will be in a sense.

[00:27:50] Seth: Uh,

[00:27:50] Jeremi: and, and Seth, I’m so glad you brought up, uh, president Luna. I wanted to spend a little time talking a about him as well. Um, as I understand it, um, he’s someone who comes out of the workers movement, right? And, and, Labor activism and progressive politics in, in Brazil, he was president, as I’m sure most of our listeners know, and some might even, uh, remember he was president from 2003 until 2010, and now he’s come back to office in a sense to try to rescue, I guess the, the left in Brazil.

[00:28:24] Jeremi: Um, first of all, h h what, what is your reaction to that as a historian, and then where do you see this going?

[00:28:30] Seth: Oh, it’s a stunning reversal of fortune for Lula. Correct. Um, one could argue that the story of Lula, um, his sort of triumphant return, um, it’s uh, it’s quite remarkable, but in many ways, one could argue that he should not have been, um, blocked from running for office to begin with.

[00:28:54] Seth: Um, back, what would it have been? 2000, um, and. 18. Um, you know, as part of that investigation to that massive corruption scandal, um, he lula himself was thrown into jail, but the conviction was, was, uh, ultimately thrown out because of the irregularities in which the, um, the presiding judge was, uh, communicating with the prosecutor, the way in which the case was tried.

[00:29:21] Seth: The evidence was seemingly very, So there’s that. I guess I would like to put, you know, into the historical record and, and many, you know, those of those who are sympathetic or, or critical to what happened to Lula would, would point out. But I think, um, his, um, return also shows that BOLs. Government was so disastrous.

[00:29:46] Seth: I didn’t talk about the 700,000 resilience, who lost their lives to covid cause he was a covid, denialist and significantly hampered the, um, public health measures that could have, uh, mitigated the impact of this, this pandemic. I think it’s a, it’s a testament that although Lula did score a very narrow victory, uh, and Bolson did obtain a frightening large.

[00:30:10] Seth: Of votes in Brazil, it still was a victory. And it counted on, um, the alliances that, um, Lulo was able to strike with other parties, including the, the center right party, which during the um, During the 13 years that the broker’s party was, uh, in office or held presidential office, you know, was a fierce opponent, uh, of the worker’s party, but now recognizing that they both had, you know, the bolson, um, far right, um, prospect as, as a greater enemy, came together to, to de defeat Bolson.

[00:30:53] Jeremi: And do you see this return of Lula to the presidency? Is, is it a return to the period he was in office before? Have we stepped back into that period? Or do you see a different, a different kind of Lula presidency emerging?

[00:31:09] Seth: That’s an excellent question. Um, that’s a tough question. Uh, you know, Lula’s presidency, um, was one of.

[00:31:19] Seth: Prosperity for Brazil, you know, um, for Brazil in general, you had millions of people who were lifted out of poverty. You had, um, a commodity boom in which, uh, largely driven by imports or exports to China, in which, um, you know, Brazil’s agribusiness really was, uh, thriving and the country was in very good shape.

[00:31:41] Seth: This is when Brazil wins the, um, option to host the Olympics, and everything’s looking wonderful. Under his successor, Jill Mae. Uh, you know, those conditions would already change. Um, China’s economy is not too doing too great now. So it’s not clear. It’s, I think it’s fair to say that the global conditions don’t favor, um, the, the current presidency of Luu as much as they did during his first two mandates.

[00:32:11] Seth: There’s also the Bolson NATO factor, which of course during his, during his presidency, you didn’t have the eruption of this. Uh, violent and, uh, vir, uh, right wing movement. And so it’s unclear how that will play out. Um, over the course of his presidency, uh, we saw the, you know, some of the recourses to which the far right.

[00:32:36] Seth: Um, would resort in terms of that attack in on January 8th in Brazilia. So, hope one hopes that that kind of will discredit, um, sectors of the movement, but it probably will be a bit bumpy for Brazil as it’s, as it will be for the United States over the next. Years,

[00:32:54] Jeremi: what was striking to me, Seth, uh, as someone watching the events in Brazil through the American media, of course, or I’m getting a, a filtered view, but what was striking to me were two things, uh, that I think have some historical precedent, right?

[00:33:08] Jeremi: One was what appeared to be the, um, clash, not just between the Bolsonaro and. Lula supporters, but also between different levels of government. If I’m not mistaken, the local official in charge of the region around Brazilia is accused of not having responded quickly, and was was, I think, uh, forced out of office by, by the Supreme Court Justice, uh, if I’m, if, if I have that right.

[00:33:32] Jeremi: Uh, yes. I believe that’s correct.

[00:33:34] Seth: Mm-hmm. .

[00:33:34] Jeremi: So, so the, so the, the different levels of government fighting one another. And, and I think we often forget that Brazil, like the United States is a federalist system. Uh, the other thing that was striking to me was how in contrast to the past, uh, in Brazil and other countries in Latin America did seem in this case, and I’m thinking of the contrast with Chile in particular, which is a case I know a little bit about.

[00:33:57] Jeremi: That the military was firmly on the side of the democratically elected government. That that seems to be a little different from some of the history we’ve seen before. I’d wonder if you, if you would comment on, on those two observations.

[00:34:08] Seth: Yes. Well, under BOLs, you certainly had, um, in particular the judicial system, the, the judiciary, excuse me, that did, um, speak out, that did attempt to reign in, um, uh, policies, uh, of bolson, uh, power grabs, um, some of the authoritarian initiatives, um, that he either encouraged or embraced or.

[00:34:36] Seth: Uh, conspiracy theories that he hoped to advance in order to de-legitimize, um, Brazilian democracy and the electoral system in particular. You had pushback from the press too, as well, um, against this idea of fake news. So, um, which of course, as another. Transformation that occurs in Brazil over the last, you know, several decades, the explosion of social media and how that’s affected or corrupted, you know, public discourse and civil discourse, et cetera.

[00:35:03] Seth: Um, so that was the first question. Um, the second question, um, ref, refresh my memory. I’m sorry, Terry, what was the second question about? Sure, sure. So,

[00:35:11] Jeremi: yeah, sorry to throw so much at you, Seth, but you’re, you’re so brilliant at making sense of this for us, . Um, The second question was, was about the military, right?

[00:35:20] Jeremi: Traditionally, those of us who are non-experts are always concerned, particularly I have to say in South America about the military often being on the side of the coup plotters, not unending democracy.

[00:35:32] Seth: Yes. Yes. Thank you. I’m sorry, but that I didn’t remember that. Right. So the military did show restraint, which is very, Heartening, um, the coup plotters, you know, one of their strategies prior to, um, storming the, the, uh, Congress and the Supreme Court and the Presidential Palace in Brazil, uh, was to camp out as you, as you, I think referred to when you were talking about the, uh, governor of Brazilia allowing, um, or not providing enough security, um, uh, that might.

[00:36:05] Seth: Precluded that terrible attack. But these coop, you know, these, these right wing supporters of Bolson, um, you know, camped out in front of the military, um, barracks, basically encouraging or calling upon the military intervene. So that was something that we know took place in 1964 there, uh, prior to the, and leading up to the military crew that would last.

[00:36:26] Seth: Um, 21 years in that, um, you know, right wing civilians, um, business people, the press housewives, et cetera, were clamoring for the military to intervene, which they did. And that, that hasn’t happened now. But, you know, as you know and could tell us much more about Jeremy, the, the ways in which democracy is under siege, under threat now globally, many have argued is not so much from.

[00:36:52] Seth: Hardcore military intervention, but the gradual but steady erosion of, um, democratic processes and procedures and institutions. And I think Bolson, uh, uh, you know, certainly did his damage and tried to re, you know, tremendous havoc on Brazil, on those Brazil institutions, um, through his conspiracy theories, through his, um, fake news and through his, um, allegations and accusations and through his policies and his, um, budgetary decisions.

[00:37:21] Jeremi: right? And so we’re not, we’re not in the sense out of the woods yet. In fact, uh, we might face a different kind of threat from what we faced in 1964, for example, right? So, Seth, you, you’ve elucidated so many complex issues, uh, for us. You’ve given us I think, a, a whole course here in a few minutes, which is really phenomenal.

[00:37:40] Jeremi: We, we, we always like to close our discussions, uh, by showing or thinking a little bit about how this history, uh, can help us not to find a silver bullet solution going forward, but at least to be on a better pathway or come up with some better pathways moving forward. And I, and I guess for many of our listeners who are in the United States or somehow connected to US policy making, I guess the question I wanted to close with, with, with you on is, Can and should the United States do to help?

[00:38:12] Jeremi: And what role can American citizens play in that?

[00:38:16] Seth: Well, I think the United States, the Biden administration was very effective in immediately recognizing the results of the election, um, in October and thereby, um, immediately, uh, legitimizing throwing its weight behind, um, Lula’s victory. So this is important.

[00:38:36] Seth: Um, I think. Um, democratic and progressive groups in the United States do, you know, have to and do work with partners in Brazil, whether it’s environmental groups, um, indigenous groups, women’s groups, LGBTQ groups, to ensure that the hard. Fought and hard won, um, advances that these groups have made in Brazil are not eroded.

[00:39:02] Seth: If they have been, um, lessened that they’re restored under the government of Lula. Um, democracy is fragile and, um, those of us who who seek to preserve it need to be very vigilant about the ways in which, and proactive. Uh, we have to be vigilant and proactive in defending it and ensuring that those groups who seek to.

[00:39:26] Seth: A more regressive, a less progressive, a more authoritarian, a more hierarchical type of society do not prevail because there’s certainly great strides that have been made on that front and that continue to be made on that front to roll back the advances that Brazilian Brazilian society I think has achieved over the last few decades.

[00:39:48] Jeremi: That’s super helpful. Uh, Zachary, as, as a young person who cares deeply about democracy, and, uh, it’s something we talk about every week of course, on the podcast here. Um, do you find that this discussion, um, of the events in Brazil, do, do you see it as opening Optimistic Pathways forward, or do you, do you find it.

[00:40:08] Jeremi: Well, I

[00:40:09] Zachary: think that it’s, it’s hard not to look at the past, uh, few years, uh, in the history of the Western Hemisphere and the history of the world and not be a little depressed, uh, by the political leadership we’ve had. But I do think that, uh, this year offers us an opportunity. Here we are in January to, to make a real difference.

[00:40:29] Zachary: I, I think that, that what the elections, uh, in Brazil in the past year and, uh, in the United States, uh, two years ago, show us is that, uh, voting, uh, and, and making our voices heard even as individuals. Can have a big difference, particularly in these close elections that seem to dominate world politics. Uh, and I think it’s also important, uh, as a reminder, uh, that our challenges, the challenges we face at home in the United States are, are not simply challenges that we face, but challenges that our neighbors face, right?

[00:40:59] Zachary: And, and challenges that we have a responsibility to solve. To solve or to help solve, not just at home, but, but abroad.

[00:41:05] Jeremi: Right. And, and I think your comments and, and mm-hmm. and Seth’s insights, uh, really, really connect us to our theme from the very beginning of our podcast four years ago. Right. It’s Franklin Roosevelt talking about the next chapter of Democ in the 1930s.

[00:41:21] Jeremi: Uh, who reminds us that the United States is part of a global mosaic of democracies. Uh, and that means that we’re connected to what happens in places like Brazil. But, but it also means that we can’t. Strong arm our way into fixing these problems at home or abroad, that it’s a more complex relationship.

[00:41:39] Jeremi: And I think Seth has really given us a broad historical understanding of the, the difficult choices and the long-term commitment. I think as you put it, Seth, that’s really, really important here. Um, Seth Garfield, thank you so much for joining us, uh, and sharing so much insight, uh, with us. I think this was a classic case of how basic historical knowledge and what’s probably basic historical knowledge to you, can open up so many ways of thinking for those like myself, I have to admit, who are ignorant of that history.

[00:42:09] Seth: Thank you, Jeremy. This was really a pleasure, um, to have this opportunity. So I thank you for inviting me to be on your program and thank you, Zachary for those, um, lovely and insightful words that you said at the end. Podcast. I certainly agree with all of your, your thoughts. Thank you.

[00:42:26] Jeremi: And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week’s episode of This is Democracy.

[00:42:40] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Kini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:43:00] Outro: See you next time.