This is Democracy – Episode 223: Infrastructure and Indigenous Communities

2023-01-12_This-is-Democracy_Episode-223
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[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United

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[00:00:29] Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week we’re going to talk about, uh, infrastructure and indigenous peoples, the ways in which the constant building and rebuilding of our landscape and the role that, uh, infrastructure plays in it, how that affects the lives of, uh, indigenous communities of various kinds. How over time, Uh, the experience of different communities has been changed by the building on our landscape and, uh, how that continues to be an issue for us to deal with today As we think [00:01:00] about, uh, a massive new investment in infrastructure that’s going to be coming from the federal government.

[00:01:04] In some ways we’re long overdue to reinvest in our bridges and our water infrastructure and our energy infrastructure, particularly in a state like Texas. Uh, but what we often don’t. Are the effects that those investments in that building has on peoples who have lived in different areas for many, many, many years.

[00:01:24] Uh, we’re joined by a colleague, friend, and, uh, someone who has written extensively on these issues and various other issues related to the history of the west, the environment, and indigenous peoples. Uh, this is my colleague, professor Erica Baum. Uh, Erica, thank you for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me.

[00:01:44] Uh, Erica is an associate professor of history at the University of Texas here in Austin. Uh, she’s the author of two really fascinating, wonderful books. Uh, two very different books. Uh, Indian Made, Navajo Culture in the Marketplace On, on the consumer [00:02:00] Consumerization, I guess, of, of Indian culture and Indian, uh, artwork and crafts in the United States and her most recent book, the book we’ll talk about today, the foundations of Glen Canyon.

[00:02:11] Infrastructures of dispossession on the Colorado Plateau. It’s a beautiful book, uh, that I really encourage, uh, all of our listeners to, to read it. It has such insights, um, on not just, um, history on engineering and water issues that are of course so important, uh, to all parts of our democracy. Erica has received numerous teaching awards.

[00:02:33] I think she’s received every possible teaching award from the university. Um, most, uh, especially. The UT Region’s outstanding teaching award, and, and Erica is, is also just a, a wonderful colleague. Um, so we’re very delighted to have her with us today. Before we turn to our discussion of infrastructure and indigenous peoples, we have of course, Mr.

[00:02:54] Zachary scene setting poem. Uh, what’s the title of your poem today? Zachary

[00:02:57] Zachary: Sonnet on the Shores of Lake Powell.

[00:02:59] Jeremi: Wow. Let’s hear it.

[00:03:03] Zachary: Beneath the water. Can you hear the voice that begs you all to stop and meet her eyes? No sir. There are no tears. They are not moist, but cold and steely. Echoes of her size hark.

[00:03:17] How perverse the land has disappeared. The footprints all were left to wash away the ghosts. Repeat each dream. Each fever feared in each drop. I drink. I taste what they say. How to remember the drowned and the sunk, the damned, the dried. They have lived and they live, but with no roots. A tree is just a trunk that stands straight, upright, but must sometime give in the depths of the lake.

[00:03:47] I see a dark hope. Me the mouths of forgetters. Fill up with soap, , .

[00:03:54] Erika: That’s great. Zachary,

[00:03:57] Jeremi: you have a little surprise there at the end for us, huh? ? Mm-hmm. , [00:04:00] what’s your poem about Zachary? My poem is

[00:04:01] Zachary: about, uh, how big infrastructure projects in particular the damning of rivers and the damning of the Colorado River, um, erases, uh, so many, uh, long-standing communities and makes it very difficult for those communities to, uh, maintain their history.

[00:04:18] And they’re all important, uh, memory. Mm

[00:04:20] Jeremi: mm Erica, that seems to be one of the main points of your new book. Yes.

[00:04:24] Erika: Yes. Um, yes. Certainly erasure, um, indigenous erasure in the region is a big theme. Um, and Zach really hit on something about, you know, what happens when, um, not just communities or drown, but a kind of culture is submerged.

[00:04:42] Um, and. You know, people failed to recognize that it was there, and that’s a very conscious effort. That kind of erasure is something that happens through this process called settler colonialism. That is a main theme of the book.

[00:04:55] Jeremi: And, and we’ll talk a lot about that, that big phrase, settler colonialism.

[00:04:59] Yeah. Uh, but, [00:05:00] but I was really struck, Erica, early in the book. You talk about your own family and the ways in which some of your, uh, um, grandparents and parents experiences are part of this story, but were also erased in certain ways. Can you, can you share that with

[00:05:13] Erika: us? Sure. Um, well, I became interested in the topic of Glen Canyon Dam.

[00:05:19] I mean, I grew up in Utah, and if you are from Utah, Glen Canyon Dam and Lake Powell were very controversial pro. There were people who were really for the dam and people who were, um, Aggressively against the construction of Glen Canyon Dam, so it kind of looms large, um, in the landscape. And, um, I finished my first book, um, on Navajo material culture and how, uh, a whole kind of consumer market around Navajo culture.

[00:05:50] Uh, was created by these traders, and I had been interviewing some traders in Page Arizona, and I called my dad on a research trip and he said, oh, go look at the [00:06:00] dam and when you get to the dam, call me. So I drove from page across the bridge, you know, so I was facing the dam and called my dad, and he said, that is the first project that your fa, your grandfather worked on.

[00:06:14] engineering project your grandfather worked on as a refugee from Germany, and that was the first time I had heard that particular family story and I had been already thinking about. Um, material culture writ large, so from kind of small scale jewelry, rugs, et cetera, to how a material like concrete had transformed the landscape and then the pieces just kind of began to fall together.

[00:06:40] That maybe I wanted to write a history of the dam and its impact on indigenous people. because there are probably 2000 books on Glen Canyon Dam, and very few of them even mentioned that the dam was built on indigenous land and then suddenly it was connected to my own family’s history and experience in the region.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] And so that’s kind of where. , I, that was one of the starting places for this new research

[00:07:05] Jeremi: project. Fantastic. Um, it’s always very powerful when a story like this connects to us personally. Uh, and people tend to think that historians were supposed to be completely dispassionate and objective. And of course, that’s very far from the truth.

[00:07:18] We, we focus on evidence. We don’t get to make things up , but we often have a very strong connection to the topics. We write about, just to situate our listeners who probably like me, were, were not and are not experts on Glen Canyon Dam. Where is it? And, and, and what role does it play in our water and energy infrastructure?

[00:07:39] Erika: Sure. Um, so Glen Canyon Dam, there are two. major dams on the Colorado River Hoover Dam and Glen Canyon Dam. And Glen Canyon Dam is up river from, uh, Hoover Dam. It’s on the Utah, Arizona border. Um, right at Page Arizona. So Page was a city that was built to actually support [00:08:00] the construction of the dam.

[00:08:01] About 40 million. People rely on the water and energy from those two dams, from Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the reservoirs of those two dams. Um, it’s, it was meant to serve so Lake. Mead and Hoover Dam were meant to serve what are called the lower basin states, um, Nevada, California, um, and Glen Canyon Dam was meant to see serve the water irrigation and energy needs of the upper basin states, um, you know, Utah, um, uh, Wyoming, Colorado, uh, et cetera.

[00:08:35] So those seven states divided essentially the waters of the Colorado River. In 1922, uh, they ga there was a, something called the Colorado River Compact and divided up the waters, how much you know, each state would get. Then those B dams were built. The Hoover Hoover Dam was built in the thirties. Glen Canyon Dam was built in the fifties, um, to meet those water needs.

[00:08:59] And the one [00:09:00] population that was left out of that 1922. Compact and subsequent water debates, although now it’s becoming more important, are the 31 federally recognized tribes who have treaty rights actually to the Colorado, uh, river and the waters of the tributaries in the basin. .

[00:09:18] Jeremi: And, and one of the points you make quite eloquently in your book is that, uh, these indigenous, uh, peoples, they, they are part of the foundation, uh, for the dam.

[00:09:29] You’re right that the engineering foundation has received attention, but that there’s below the Navajo sandstone, you say there’s much more of a social and political story that needs to be told. Why and how were these groups who lived on this land, how were they dispossessed in your. . Right.

[00:09:48] Erika: That’s a excellent question.

[00:09:49] And that’s really the big theme of the book. Um, so I use settler colonialism, which is the idea that settlers, um, are moving [00:10:00] onto the landscape with the express intent of removing and displacing the people who are already there. So they are not just coming in to use resources and leave. They’re there to stay.

[00:10:13] Um, and. intentionally, they displace indigenous people and take their resources. So one of the things that settlers do is they look for indigenous infrastructure. Infrastructure that indigenous people had built, utilized very sophisticated infrastructure, irrigation, ditches, et cetera, as key indicators that they could settle there.

[00:10:36] The first part of that story is one about engineering. It’s one about thinking about indigenous engineering and using that for the settlers’ benefit. But the second part is the cultural significance of that landscape to indigenous people as homelands. So indigenous people had lived in, uh, on the Colorado Plateau [00:11:00] for millennia.

[00:11:01] They had a. Relationship. It is the place of their emergence. The, you know, it’s religiously significant, it’s culturally significant, it’s politically significant. It was economically significant. So one of the, the key points of the book is settlers not only had to remove indigenous people, they had to attempt to erase the ways in which people made meaning of that landscape.

[00:11:28] and you know, they don’t do it for the indigenous people. Indigenous people still maintain that meaning of the landscape, but they have to essentially ignore. , that that landscape belonged to somebody else, that those lands, those waters, the resources, et cetera, were meaningful to other people. Um, and so that’s really one of the kind of key points that the book

[00:11:48] Jeremi: makes.

[00:11:49] A and you show at times, especially in your early chapters, that, um, oftentimes, um, members of different indigenous groups welcome some of this development. [00:12:00] Uh, but then of course the story changes over time. Can, can you fill in some of that for us? Sure. Well,

[00:12:06] Erika: settler colonialism. So the settlement of the American West is, you get lots of people, uh, Anglo, white settlers moving into the American West.

[00:12:15] They pit indigenous people kind of against each other. And some people are more vulnerable than others. And so some, you know, indigenous people, they’re not, you know, they’re indigenous people are used to newcomers, they’re used to trading. Um, , you know, people moving across their landscape. So there’s essentially a kind of misunderstanding about what people want.

[00:12:39] They don’t necessarily understand that these people who are coming in, in the, in the case of the book, the Latter Day Saints, with the express intent to stay and displace them and take their resources. So the first interactions, say between l d s, settlers and Utes and Paiutes, , um, in northern Utah and southern [00:13:00] Utah.

[00:13:00] The two places that I talk a little bit about in the book, more about southern Utah, in the book, they sort of are like, okay, who are these people? Do we wanna trade with them? They’re bringing in resources, um, at a time of they’re bringing in cattle, um, they’re planting, et cetera. Maybe we want to work with them.

[00:13:20] They believe essentially that. . What the, um, l d s settlers will do is kind of share those resources with them. The l d s settlers have a completely different viewpoint, which is they are there to permanently settle on those lands and take the land and water from the indigenous people. And once indigenous people sort of realize that there’s conflict there, uh, armed conflict sometimes, um, violence, uh, Attempts to expel the settlers, uh, from the landscape.

[00:13:54] That certainly happens with the Utes. Uh, the Southern Utes and the l d s settlers, they push them back, [00:14:00] um, to Northern Utah. Um, so there’s a kind of tension that changes over time once people realize what’s happening. But the big thing to consider also is, you know, it doesn’t occur. The tensions between indigenous people and non-indigenous people does not occur in a kind of vacuum.

[00:14:19] you know, there’s been Spanish settlement. There’s been, um, American settlement in the regions surrounding Utah for quite some time, especially with, you know, once gold is discovered in California. So there’s a lot of pressure being put on indigenous people. They’re being pushed as gold is discovered in Colorado to the, uh, southwestern Utes are being pushed to the southwestern part of the state of Colorado.

[00:14:45] They’re losing their resources. They’re kind of being. Attacked on all sides, for lack of a better word. And so there’s a, there are kind of different layers of pressure that indigenous people are feeling that make the idea of potentially [00:15:00] negotiating with different populations, um, seem like a smart thing to do for them.

[00:15:06] Zachary: How critical was this particular dis dispossession, uh, the dispossession of indigenous peoples around, uh, Glen Canyon Dam and Present Day Lake Powell. How critical was this particular dispo, uh, dis dispossession for the eventual settlement of the region? .

[00:15:22] Erika: Um, so it happens in la That’s an excellent question, Zachary.

[00:15:26] It happens in layers, and that’s one of the key things that I make in one of the key points I make in the book, that the foundations of Glen Canyon Dam are not just an engineering foundation where they poured a bunch of concrete, so it was the religious settlement of that region. So the l d s colonization is kind of a key foundation, and then there’s a foundation of.

[00:15:46] um, scientific exploration, government, explorers, surveyors, et cetera, who are attempting to kind of catalog all the resources in that land. Then the engineers come in and they figure out how the, the water could be [00:16:00] utilized for the region. So with each successive layer of that foundation, as each successive layer of that foundation gets embedded into the landscape, we begin to see the growth of the white population.

[00:16:13] All of that is done with the intention of. Expanding and growing the Anglo or white population in that region. And that becomes the kind of core foundation for dis dispossessing, removing, pushing off, taking resources of indigenous people, um, on that landscape. So each layer become, um, Kind of depth and stability to settler colonialism, a foundation of settler colonialism with the express intent of taking indigenous resources.

[00:16:46] Jeremi: I, I really like that part of your book, Erica, that there isn’t, uh, a sort of one origin moment there, there are many origins. Um, and it’s also really, really interesting to a non-expert reader like me, uh, how [00:17:00] so many very well known figures make cameo or more than cameo appearances , right? I mean, Joseph. Uh, the leader of the Mormons of the Church of Latter Day Saints, uh, or at least of the, the settlers in, in Utah is an important character for you.

[00:17:13] John Wesley Powell, Powell, the, uh, explorer and, and scientist and promoter. Um, it, it’s interesting how many of these different dynamics cross into your story. Um, and, and is that, is that one of the points you’re making? Yeah,

[00:17:28] Erika: I’m, I I think people have a tendency to think about Powell’s exploration of the Colorado River, which.

[00:17:34] Um, I mean, Powell became incredibly famous for his exploration of the Colorado River. He, you know, navigated almost the entire length of the river. He wrote, you know, he had made maps, wrote about it. Um, and he became a kind of iconic explorer figure, um, as a result of this. But few people think, About how Powell interacted with a leader like Brigham Young, who was also in the region.

[00:17:59] And [00:18:00] the two actually met, um, a, a few times on the banks of the Colorado River to discuss, um, it, while Powell didn’t necessarily respect the latter day Saint Religion, he respected the l d s settlers as, um, These kind of civilizes of the region, people who were gonna bring industry to the region, farming, agriculture, et cetera.

[00:18:22] Um, Powell, however, had very different ideas about how water in the region should be used than politicians from the region, including the latter day Saints, um, and even politicians in Congress who had already essentially decided what states should look like. already kind of mapped out the territories, Utah, Arizona, et cetera, and their idea was like, well, we’ll just figure out where the water is and bring it to the settlers.

[00:18:50] And Powell actually had a different idea. He has a fantastic map, which is a map of, there should be basin states. So states should be [00:19:00] drawn around water tributaries like they were in the East as opposed to these big square blocks like they are in the west. And so, you know, there was all sorts. There were all sorts of debates about how water in the West should be used, how people were gonna get it.

[00:19:15] And by the, you know, mid to late 19th century, it all becomes about, we’re just gonna engineer our way out of these. Environmental

[00:19:22] Jeremi: problems. Hmm. Sounds similar to today. , yeah. Yes, very much so. Um, uh, we have a sense, I think, of what this all means for, uh, settler colonialism for, uh, settlers coming into Utah and Arizona.

[00:19:38] Two states where, where your book begins in the, uh, mid to late 19th century, there are not many, uh, white settlers. And of course, by the 20th century there are very, very large communities. What does all this mean for the indigenous.

[00:19:51] Erika: Right, so indigenous communities, so the whole project maps onto essentially the, [00:20:00] the larger arc of Native American or indigenous history, which is, you know, it follows the.

[00:20:07] Settlement of the region, the internment of the Navajo, the release of the Dine Navajo from that internment, those internment camps in the, uh, 1860s. Um, and then the question begins, how are these populations going to co-exist? And the Navajo actually, you know, rebound, they expand, their population expands from about 8,000 to 30,000 within a, a very short period of time, which means they, they’re.

[00:20:36] Excellent sheep hiers. They’re actually using the resources pretty effectively across the plateau, and that creates the sense of white settlers that this population is doing something right that they could potentially learn from. Um, and more settlers move down into that region. You get explorers, um, like Powell, like, um, I talk about Herbert Gregory [00:21:00] and LaRue, who are two.

[00:21:04] scientists who are working for the, essentially the U S G S, um, Gregory’s working for the U S G S and la Ru is working for, um, LA County and Water. So they’re beginning to think about how water in the region is gonna be used, and they, um, they. Look to indigenous people for their knowledge, they mine their knowledge.

[00:21:26] So indigenous people become, um, guides for people like Herbert Gregory. They give him language to describe what he’s seeing, and he in turn extracts that knowledge from that population and uses it to. Dis dispossess them. And that’s a process that happens kind of repeatedly over the course of the book all the way up until the 1940s and fifties when the federal government realizes in order to build Glen Kennon Dam, it needs land.

[00:21:55] that belongs to the Navajo nation. And so they have to engage in a land swap and they [00:22:00] make certain promises to the Navajo nation, um, about what it will get in return for, um, exchanging one parcel of land. That parcel it needs to build Glen Canyon Dam for another parcel of land in southern Utah. And the tribe at this point is sort of attempting.

[00:22:19] Um, the tribal leaders are attempting to help their population, water and electricity. , um, getting those things to the reservation would be, are, were important initiatives for tribal leaders. And so they work with the federal government essentially only to be, only to have their concerns glossed over in a kind of replication of the process again and again.

[00:22:42] So this time it, they get the land. , the government gets land, it needs to build the dam, it builds the dam, and the Navajo essentially are shortchanged in that, in that process,

[00:22:54] Jeremi: it, it does seem like, uh, they’re not only silenced, but victimized in many ways [00:23:00] by, uh, decision time. And again. Is that, is that, is that a fair characterization?

[00:23:04] Yeah,

[00:23:05] Erika: I think, I mean one of the kind of key opening episodes in the book is um, Raymond Nakai, who is the tribal chairman of the Navajo Nation, um, is invited to the dedication of Glen Canyon Dam, and he writes a speech for it. He’s told he’s going to get the chance to deliver a speech and then. You know, the government officials, the LDS leaders who give the prayer, uh, Ladybird Johnson is there to dedicate the dam.

[00:23:32] Everybody goes over the, there’s allotted speaking time, and it’s Raymond Nakai who’s cut from the program. And that is kind of a nice allegory, I think, or metaphor for what actually happens to indigenous people where they’re. , they’re gonna get something, the opportunity to have a voice to talk about, um, in Niki’s case, why the dam is potentially meaningful for the Navajo [00:24:00] nation.

[00:24:00] And then, you know, when push comes to shove or when they run out of time and they think the ceremony’s going on too long. He’s just eliminated or silenced from the

[00:24:09] Jeremi: program. Yeah. It is so indicative of what seems to happen at every point in, in your, in your narrative. Um, you, you do Close on an optimistic note, which I appreciated.

[00:24:19] Yeah. , um, uh, you do on this very issue, uh, point to at least one moment. In the early 21st century when, um, the indigenous community or part of it is at least given voice, uh, again, can, can you share that with us and, and, and why that’s a model?

[00:24:35] Erika: Yeah. So I end with the narrative of Bears Ears and Bears Ears.

[00:24:40] I think it represents a new way of. Um, the federal government working with tribes and letting tribes lead. So, bear’s Ears is a national monument in southeastern Utah that, um, five Tribes, a coalition of five tribes, actually [00:25:00] petitioned the federal government to create. And, um, Obama, as he was leaving office, actually signed, uh, bears Ears into existence.

[00:25:09] He, he listened to the five tribes, um, and. That bearers is really important. Um, , uh, you know, for the residents, the indigenous residents of the region, because it was their idea. It’s a recognition, uh, recognition of their presence on the landscape. Uh, they are kind of leading and co-managing the monument with the National Park Service, um, in terms of what people can do, how they can do it, um, whose voices are heard.

[00:25:40] Um, it, it was very controversial. President Trump in almost one of his first actions, signed it out of existence, Biden signed it back into existence. So it’s, um, a, a place on the landscape where indigenous people are leading the conversation and [00:26:00] the federal government is listening to how that landscape should be managed.

[00:26:04] And as a result of that, I think it is a model for. , um, letting indigenous people take the lead and determine what will happen to the lands that are most culturally significant to them and how they could be utilized in terms of management practices. Do you

[00:26:19] Zachary: think there’s maybe an opportunity to have more conversations like that?

[00:26:24] Um, and, and maybe to repair some of the, the immense damage done to these communities, um, and tribes, uh, with climate change and the new crisis of water in the west, uh, and, and the seeming failure of these water systems, uh, built decades ago.

[00:26:42] Erika: Yeah, that’s an excellent question and I’m glad that you brought that up.

[00:26:46] Um, Water in the West is quickly disappearing. Uh, both Glen Canyon and Lake Mead, um, uh, lake Powell and Lake Mead are incredibly low. They might reach what is [00:27:00] called Deadpool, which means there’s not enough water running through the turbines to actually generate electricity. So it’ll be like a stagnant pool of water in those, um, in those lakes.

[00:27:11] Glen Canyon Dam, lake Powell is. Vulnerable to that than Lake Mead right now. Um, in part, the way in which the West has grown with this idea that we can continually engineer our way out of, um, environmental crisis. So we’ll just, Create bigger dams to generate more hydroelectricity so we can grow populations of places like Phoenix and uh, Tucson, and we can export all that.

[00:27:39] That electricity, which cannot be stored, has actually exacerbated and created the conditions. that exacerbate climate change, so that this is a very old way of thinking about how we’re going to use our resources in the American West, and we need maybe an older way of [00:28:00] thinking, which is how indigenous people have thought about and managed their resources.

[00:28:05] Sort of living in balance with the environment, thinking about what is sustainable and what isn’t sustainable. as a, as a, as we’re, as a kind of model that we’re seeing in Bears Ears to potentially help us think about solutions. So there are all sorts of proposals on the board about how we can import, you know, how we can, uh, import more water or desalinization plans, et cetera.

[00:28:32] Just bring more water to the west. And there’s a lack of. , uh, consideration, which is how do we conserve the water that is already there? How do we think about what kind of population can actually be supported? How do we, you know, use our res our electricity a little more sustainably in the region as opposed to just like, how do we generate more?

[00:28:55] And I think indigenous people are really at the forefront in leading those conversations and trying to [00:29:00] push people, um, to rethink. The balance of nature. And these are indigenous scientists, indigenous geographers, uh, indigenous hydrologists who are at the forefront of leading these conversations.

[00:29:14] Jeremi: It that’s really cool.

[00:29:15] I mean, that, that actually, um, being more participatory in the way we plan and build could actually be good for the environment is, is what I hear you saying. Uh, what forums should, should those conversations take place and how should our listeners. Participate. How should they help to initiate these conversations?

[00:29:34] Erika: Um, well, I mean, I think just getting people to think about the E, especially in the American Southwest. Um, That indigenous people need to be part of this conversation. And, you know, pressuring government officials who are meeting to, you know, think about a renegotiation of that Colorado River Compact.

[00:29:57] Essentially the government divided up more water than [00:30:00] existed even in the Colorado River. So now the states are kind of in crisis. Everybody wants their share of water. That doesn’t exist. Those 31 tribes have not been at that table and they, um, by treaty. Uh, actually have, um, a claim to a lot of that water.

[00:30:18] So the first thing that needs to happen, or one of the first thing that needs to happen is tribes need to be. at the table, having conversations about what’s gonna happen with the Colorado River and how that water should be managed. And so people really need to be pr making sure that when these conversations are occurring, uh, there are tribal representatives, um, from tribal governments, uh, from uh, the indigenous scientific community who are there, who can take.

[00:30:47] Jeremi: And, and one final question, Erica, you’ve shared so much with us, uh, from a historical and a policy, uh, and an engineering perspective. Um, what do you take as some lessons, [00:31:00] uh, from this analysis and from this really important story for when you think about, um, more local, um, infrastructure issues such as debates in Austin?

[00:31:11] Development in one part of town or another part of town. What, what do you take from this for, for those discussions?

[00:31:17] Erika: Um, that’s, that’s really interesting. I think, um, we have a tendency to, there’s this idea in, um, I. The history of, of engineering, um, of, of path dependency that we essentially get put on a path by decisions that policy makers made for us 50 or a hundred years ago.

[00:31:40] And it’s really hard to. Tra to, you know, change the direction of that path. But in many ways we need to be thinking about doing that. So we have been put on this path locally about, you know, which is a path of expansion and growth, and, um, we’ll just [00:32:00] figure out how to solve these problems about where we’re gonna get the resources we need at some later date.

[00:32:06] Like, we’ll let the next generation sort of figure that out. , , and, you know, we need. Kind of change the direction of that path and begin thinking about the decisions that we’re making today. How are they gonna impact generations, like five or six generations in the future, or at least two or three generations in the future?

[00:32:25] So instead of, you know, pushing, kicking those decisions down the path that people are making today, we need to actually be thinking about and trying to think about the unintended consequences of the decisions that we’re making today. That’s one thing that people. The policy makers, the engineers, the government officials don’t really seem to have a good grasp on, in, you know, 1900 or 1920 or 1940 or 1960, that the policies they’re putting in place and the engineering projects they’re putting in place are gonna have a whole bunch of [00:33:00] unintended consequences.

[00:33:01] But we know that today and we know better. And so I think planning, um, from a design mode that helps us envision. Multiple futures would be really, um, effective.

[00:33:13] Jeremi: It, it’s such a powerful and I think effective point. Um, so many parts of our democracy on a day-to-day basis involve discussions in city council and in, um, different government agencies, state and federal, all across our country, over, you know, whether to put a housing project in one place or another, or build a highway in a particular place.

[00:33:35] And what I hear you saying, Erica, is. Part of our democracy should encourage and we should all be part of discussions that ask the kinds of questions you’re asking in your book about these projects in our backyards, that that’s how our democracy should function.

[00:33:49] Erika: Exactly right.

[00:33:51] Jeremi: Zachary, what do you think?

[00:33:52] I mean, you follow a lot of these issues. Uh, you care about the environment. I think your generation is much more environmentally conscious than, [00:34:00] um, the generation that Erica and I were part of when we were your age. Uh, I guess we’re still part of that generation of our own, um, Does this resonate with you?

[00:34:09] Do you see many, um, useful and persuasive elements to this discussion? I think

[00:34:14] Zachary: so. I think we’re gonna have to have a lot more conversations like this moving forward. Um, not just with the water crisis in the West, but with other climate crises, uh, around the world and particularly in the United States. I think there’s a real opportunity to work with indigenous communities, uh, and also this history.

[00:34:32] Of indigenous dispossession, uh, in the west, uh, to make better policy in the future, and also to make sure that our processes are more democratic and, and more fair.

[00:34:42] Jeremi: Hmm, hmm. So, final question, Erica, building on Zachary’s thoughtful comments, are you optimistic? Um,

[00:34:50] Erika: I, I am optimistic. Um, I am a practical optimist, , where I think, um, you know, Zach.

[00:34:58] Zach is right. You’re right. [00:35:00] We really need to be attentive to. , um, who’s at the table when decisions are being made. And I think I am optimistic. You know, I teach a big class at ut, it’s called Building America. It is essentially history for engineers. And one of the key points that I make is, you know, engineers are not just building stuff, you know, microchips or robots or designing highways.

[00:35:24] Um, they’re also essentially when they’re envisioning those projects becoming policy makers if, if they realize it or not. And so I think we need to have, and I’m really optimistic that young people really seem to get that, that they understand that becoming an engineer, um, does mean participating.

[00:35:45] Forming and influencing our society. So I’m, I optimistic about Zach’s generation for sure, about my son’s generation, about the our UT students and beyond. I just hope that the older generation, and this is where I’m a little more practical, [00:36:00] can begin to listen and open up lines of conversation with groups who.

[00:36:06] Traditionally not had a seat at the policymaking table. And not just engineers, in this case, indigenous people, some of whom are in engineers for sure. Right,

[00:36:15] Jeremi: right. Uh, I think that’s a, a beautiful point to close on. Uh, I encourage, uh, all of our listeners to read Erica’s book. It is a beautiful, fascinating, and really eye-opening story.

[00:36:28] Uh, it also shows the power of focusing upon one. One project in the built environment and seeing so many other historical and political vectors that matter for our democracy through the prism of that project. Uh, the book is the Foundations of Glenn Canyon Dam, infrastructures of Dispossession on the Colorado Plateau.

[00:36:49] And I think today’s discussion has reminded us that at the core of our democracy is a thoughtfulness and a conversation about. How we use our technologies, [00:37:00] how we think about the things we build and how we think about them from multiple points of view, not just from the point of view of the, uh, immediate demand for that particular microchip or dam or bridge.

[00:37:10] At that, at that moment, our democracy is richer. And made more, um, uh, better for more groups, uh, through a discussion of the multiple uses and, and unintended consequences as Erica put it, of the things we build. Um, Erica, thank you so much for joining us today. All right. Thank

[00:37:28] Erika: you so much for having me,

[00:37:29] Jeremi: Zachary.

[00:37:29] Thank you for your poem as always. And thank you, most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.

[00:37:46] Erika: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts I t S Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was

[00:37:55] Jeremi: written and recorded by Harris Kini.

[00:37:57] Erika: Stay tuned for a new episode

[00:37:59] Jeremi: every week. [00:38:00]

[00:38:00] Erika: You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:38:05] See you next time.