This is Democracy – Episode 220: German Right-Wing Extremism

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy.

[00:00:29] Jeremi Suri: This week we are speaking with Isabel Ka Matri. She’s an elected member of the Bundestag, the German legislature from Monheim. Uh, she was elected to this office in 2021. Before that she served as a city counselor in Monheim, and she’s a member of the German Social Democratic Party of Germany, which leads the current coalition government in Germany.

[00:00:53] Jeremi Suri: Uh, Isabella is involved in a number of policy issues. The issue we are going to discuss today is the [00:01:00] rise of right wing extremism. In particular, a group known to its, uh, followers as the Reich. In, uh, in Germany, and we’re gonna talk to Isabel, uh, about this group, about the right wing threat in Germany and what, uh, German leaders, uh, like her are doing to protect democracy.

[00:01:19] Jeremi Suri: Um, Isabel, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:23] Isabel Cademartori: Thanks so much for inviting me.

[00:01:25] Jeremi Suri: It’s, it’s our, uh, honor to have you on before we go to our discussion, uh, with our distinguished member of the German government, we have of course, uh, Mr. Zachary scene setting poem. What’s the title of your poem this week? Zachary?

[00:01:38] Jeremi Suri: Chickens

[00:01:39] Zachary Suri: That Won’t Die.

[00:01:41] Jeremi Suri: Chickens That Won’t Die. Okay, let’s hear it.

[00:01:44] Zachary Suri: Like you, I have counted bottles as they line up on the wall. I too have sent telegrams seconds before the fall. I watched as they burn the rice tug to the ground. I was there. I wrote my name on a pillar that I found [00:02:00] like you. I remember history, but I try not to forget.

[00:02:04] Zachary Suri: I too have counted memories, dear friends who lost a bet with Destiny. I have spent too much, but I have paid my. I was there when Berlin fell watching from a bike, the pen once more mightier than any sharpened pike. So still believe in the old farce. Still breathe the old lie. We will be on your step someday with handcuffs and along sigh, and one day you’ll wake up in a land that seems a light, but it will not be your fire for, we’ve already won the.

[00:02:38] Zachary Suri: Oh, release me. Release us from these chains. We have erected right and wrong. Run through us, all of us bisected. Oh, release us. Release me. From the ghosts of memory. Coming home again to roost like chickens that won’t die. Release me. Release us once and for all. Goodbye. Eventually, you must [00:03:00] remember how terrible the

[00:03:01] Jeremi Suri: lie

[00:03:02] Jeremi Suri: Wow. What is the, that’s amazing. Gave me chills. Me too. Isabel. Me too. Uh, Zachary. What, what’s the metaphor of chickens that won’t die? Well,

[00:03:12] Zachary Suri: I think it’s, for me, what I find so, uh, hard to understand about the rice burger is, and, and, and the far right in Germany is, is how, how someone could so blatantly ignore the lessons of history.

[00:03:24] Zachary Suri: Um, and, and how someone could completely disregard, um, memories that are still so recent. Um, and also how one can somehow find the motivation to, or not the motivation, but the, the, the hatred in themselves to to, to keep fighting for a cause that seems so obviously to have lost already.

[00:03:42] Jeremi Suri: Right, right. Well, I think Isabel, that’s a perfect.

[00:03:45] Jeremi Suri: To turn to you and your expertise, uh, on this matter. Uh, this group that I, I think, uh, earlier this month, um, more than 25 people were arrested in a raid that occurred in multiple cities. What, where does this group, this [00:04:00] right wing group, call the Reich Berger and other affiliates? Where do they come from?

[00:04:03] Jeremi Suri: Who are they?

[00:04:05] Isabel Cademartori: Yes, it’s a very interesting group because it’s very heterogeneous and not all of them are right wing. But a important part is, and a very dangerous part of this group is, but what constitutes this group is they’re actually anticon, anti-constitutional or revisionist, and they reject the just legitimacy of.

[00:04:26] Isabel Cademartori: Modern German state. So they basically believe that this Bundes Republic Doland, as it exists now doesn’t really exist. And um, they believe that the the German of 1937 is actually. Um, the legitimate state that we live in right now and they reject the peace treaty. They say it’s not, there was re not really a peace treaty and they have like a lot of interesting legal arguments why they believe that our, uh, gunks, our constitution is actually not a real [00:05:00] constitution.

[00:05:01] Isabel Cademartori: So they reject the state and all the parts of it, the democracy and all its institu. , and some of them are a bit cuckoo. I mean, they’re all a bit cuckoo, but in the, in the sense that they basically, um, don’t pay for fines. They reject all type of, you know, official government. Um, letters they get, or taxes they have to pay, they reject that and they even, you know, go to court against, uh, local government, against federal government because they say that the state basically doesn’t exist, doesn’t have a legitimate.

[00:05:41] Isabel Cademartori: ground to stand on and to expect to, for them to pay taxes, for example, a

[00:05:46] Jeremi Suri: and, and before we spend more time, uh, understanding what you explained so well about their belief structure, who are they?

[00:05:55] Isabel Cademartori: Well, they, they’re people all over Germany who are caught up in [00:06:00] disbelief and, um, , interestingly, uh, I, I, I think it’s really hard to pinpoint, you know, a certain demographic.

[00:06:08] Isabel Cademartori: They are really in the midst of the society. So the people who were now arrested for this attempted coup, most notably was, uh, a German prince, so to say. So a member of the, um, long gone German aristocracy, but there were also people who were, uh, lawyers, doctors. Uh, members of, um, armed services and, uh, police members even.

[00:06:36] Jeremi Suri: And, and what draws them to this? I mean, maybe the German prince, it makes sense. He wants to regain his aristocratic standing, it seems so, uh, anachronistic. Uh, but in general, what is it that draws people to, what does sound like? I don’t know. Um, Al almost a ridiculous position.

[00:06:54] Isabel Cademartori: Well, we think that a lot of them have been radicalized, you know, by.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Isabel Cademartori: All type of conspiracy theories, especially these past years with Corona and, um, people spending too much time maybe online, um, they start to find this theories that for them explain a lot of things that maybe they don’t understand and they reject. But this group, in particularly in a lot of Rice Berg have a, a right wing, um, belief system.

[00:07:26] Isabel Cademartori: So they’re not just, you know, anti. , but they’re also right wing extremists. And um, so they have uh, uh, an affinity to fascism and some of them to the Nazi period. And I idealize this, this kind of thought. So they are partly of that scene, but there are also other parts that are esoteric. Uh, scenes that have maybe Belize into the magic world and, um, believe in [00:08:00] symbols and astrology and it, it’s, it’s, so, it’s a very, uh, like I said, heterogeneous group, but what unites them is really the rejection of our state and our institutions.

[00:08:13] Zachary Suri: And why now? Why do you think we’re seeing this kind of, uh, organized or at least semi-organized violence or, or plotting, uh, in Germany today, in this moment?

[00:08:25] Isabel Cademartori: Well, I think, um, it’s not only that we are seeing it today. I think that especially this government and our interior minister, that is a social de.

[00:08:36] Isabel Cademartori: Has maybe also put a bigger focus on this group. So that’s why, um, this raid also happened because in the past we’ve seen that, especially right wing terrorists and extremists have been a bit under the radar or maybe underestimated because I, like I explained earlier, a lot of this iceberg people are really kind of cuckoo and kind of [00:09:00] fighting with a local mayor about, You know, parking fines and stuff like that.

[00:09:05] Isabel Cademartori: So it lends to not being taken seriously as much as they should be taken seriously, because there is a part of this group that is, you know, hoarding weapons and training for armed combat. And, um, yeah, we had a, a conservative government the past 16 years with, uh, almost exclusively, I believe, a conservative interior minister who were always a bit reluctant to really.

[00:09:30] Isabel Cademartori: And say clearly that the biggest threat to our democracy comes from right wing extremism and they are part of that threat. And now we have different politics in place, um, that I think, um, just has shed a light on something that was already there.

[00:09:47] Jeremi Suri: It seems to me Isabelle as well, that the, having a, a government that’s not a conservative government has inspired some of these actors to perhaps plan for more violence.

[00:09:57] Jeremi Suri: As I understand it, they had a plan to even [00:10:00] try to assassinate the Bundes consulate, the leader of, of your government. Is that correct?

[00:10:04] Isabel Cademartori: That probably played into it, although I will say that in the past, these types of groups have also. Assassinated conservative politicians who, um, there’s a one famous one Vi Luka, who was a local politician who helped a lot, you know, in the refugee crisis, uh, to, he was very, you know, uh, engaged in helping refugees and managing the whole thing.

[00:10:30] Isabel Cademartori: Um, and he was murdered by right wing extremist because of that. So, I will say that I think it does tackle. , all of democracy. And they had, they found lists of politicians that they wanted to, to kill. And there were also conservative politicians on that list. So maybe it did, you know, inspire or help them gain new members.

[00:10:54] Isabel Cademartori: But they are so extremists that even, you know, for them, the conservative party is also [00:11:00] part of the, the problem.

[00:11:02] Jeremi Suri: And, and how many people are we talking about? Um, here?

[00:11:06] Isabel Cademartori: The security services services estimate that there are like 20,000 people who belong to this, uh, to this scene. And about 2000 of them are, uh, you know, dangerous and more violent prone.

[00:11:23] Isabel Cademartori: However, uh, there’s also. , uh, probably a large number under the radar as a, we, we also believe that it could be much more

[00:11:32] Jeremi Suri: than that. Sure. Many sympathizers maybe also, right? Yes.

[00:11:35] Isabel Cademartori: And also in the past few years, this group has gained a lot of traction and also, you know, fame actually, um, because, uh, Corona was.

[00:11:45] Isabel Cademartori: Kind of help them spread their ideas. A lot of people, like I said earlier, online, uh, you know, reading upon, uh, conspiracy theories and all the measures that were taken to combat the, the pandemic [00:12:00] were sometimes very restrictive measures would feed into this idea of that there is a deep state, that there is a conspiracy that a lot of people who were rallying and protesting against Corona.

[00:12:15] Isabel Cademartori: kind of found their way into this group, and these groups were always also present in this anti Corona measure rally.

[00:12:25] Zachary Suri: Um, there seem to be, uh, a lot of connections, uh, between the more extreme and esoteric, uh, beliefs of the w Weisberg and, uh, some of the bigger conspiracy theories in the United States and in American politics.

[00:12:40] Zachary Suri: Do you see a sort of international, uh, element to this? Maybe a, a, a big, uh, connection, at least in terms of ideology between the far right in Germany and in the United? .

[00:12:52] Isabel Cademartori: That’s a very interesting question because I, I do see that, but that’s a new development. So this rice Berg, as it [00:13:00] started, is a very German thing because it’s very much rooted in our history and how the territories, after the second World War were divided between the allies and the, the.

[00:13:12] Isabel Cademartori: The process to write the constitution, which they think was flawed, and it doesn’t hold up in court. And so it’s very rooted in German history, very specific to our history and also the division of Germany. that, um, they kind of draw for their ideology from that to explain why the, why the German state isn’t legitimate.

[00:13:35] Isabel Cademartori: However, in recent years you see that there have been connections to an international scene and they also kind of latch onto this QAN on and deep state conspiracy theories and are, um, Uh, federal public persecutor who led the rally, uh, the raid to this, uh, group, in his statement very explicitly assessed that, uh, they [00:14:00] have ties to Qan and Deep State, and he says deep state in English, uh, in the, in the press release, a conspiracy theories.

[00:14:08] Isabel Cademartori: So we do see an internal internationalization of, uh, Kind of thinking and, uh, yeah, this right wing extremism.

[00:14:19] Jeremi Suri: And, and just to, uh, go into a little more detail on that, if you can. Uh, do you also see active cooperation between members of, let’s say, the proud boys or other groups that have been now convicted in the United States of.

[00:14:33] Jeremi Suri: Conspiracy and treason. Do you see similar, uh, direct connections with the German group?

[00:14:41] Isabel Cademartori: I, I can’t really say whether this particular group who was uh, uh, rated now if there is no known. Direct corporation. We know from the right wing, uh, extremists in Germany in general, uh, in their political arm, which is the afd.[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] Isabel Cademartori: We haven’t talked about that yet, but one of the people who was rated was actually, uh, in the past a legislature, uh, a member of Parliament who was. Basically a colleague, uh, I wasn’t a member of Parliament then, but she was, and she was for the A f D and she’s still an a FT member and she was part of this conspiracy.

[00:15:17] Isabel Cademartori: So, um, I would say that the AFD is the political arm of this group and they, we know that they have a very, uh, intense, um, , you know, exchange with right wing extremist group in the US but also in Latin America and Eastern Europe and other parts of the world. And they have workshops together and they meet for, um, you know, um, exchange and learning cooperation of all sorts.

[00:15:47] Jeremi Suri: Isabelle, that was a very strong statement you made that, that, uh, one of the parties in the Bundestag in your Parliament alternative, uh, for Deutschland off day that they. C they are actually a partner with, with these [00:16:00] groups. What does that mean? I mean, doesn’t your constitution prohibit those from serving in public office who have terrorist connections?

[00:16:08] Isabel Cademartori: Well, that’s what we are discussing right now. I mean, to prohibit a party in Germany, it’s very, very difficult. . That’s kind of something, a learning from our history that political parties are very much protected. Uh, because in the past it happened so easily that political parties like mine were, uh, prohibited by the Nazis.

[00:16:30] Isabel Cademartori: However, we now have like a very, an active member of this party who was a parliamentarian, who participated in a cool. Um, obviously this is an individual person. You c you would have to show that this, uh, seeps into the party as a whole and there were plans in the party to support this, and then maybe you would have grounds to prohibit them.

[00:16:53] Isabel Cademartori: However, we do feel as social democrats that. Uh, there is insufficient grounds to, [00:17:00] uh, put them on the watch list of the security services, which in some regions of Germany is already being done because the af f d is in some parts more extreme than in others. And they are already being watched by our , which is our, you know, uh, office that.

[00:17:19] Isabel Cademartori: Kind of protects our democracy against extremism. And, but we call for them to be observed by the FFAs, uh, nationwide.

[00:17:28] Jeremi Suri: Uh, of course that only contributes to more of their conspiracy theories. Right.

[00:17:32] Isabel Cademartori: Obviously that’s always kind of the tricky part about it. Uh, why in the beginning, maybe we were even too lenient with the FD because.

[00:17:43] Isabel Cademartori: Every action you took against them. Even simple things as, uh, not renting out, you know, public spaces to them for have to, for them to have their meetings and things like that. Always by them could be interpreted of, oh, there is a conspiracy against [00:18:00] us and there’s no free thinking and no freedom in Germany.

[00:18:03] Isabel Cademartori: However, I think this raid again showed us that they are really dangerous threat to our democracy and our history tells us that a democracy. Uh, has to be, uh, defended, actively defended.

[00:18:20] Zachary Suri: But, uh, in, in Germany, at least in parts of Germany, there seems to be in, in certain populations, a strong base for the R F D.

[00:18:29] Zachary Suri: Uh, where do you think that comes from? Why are there so many Germans who we would hope, uh, have learned? Their history, uh, who are willing to support a party like this? Where, where do you think that comes from?

[00:18:41] Isabel Cademartori: Oh, you’re asking like the the ultimate question. You know, why, why do people support this kind of thinking?

[00:18:48] Isabel Cademartori: And, um, there is not an easy answer. I mean, what is clear that in areas in East Germany, they are much stronger than West Germany, which there’s a number. [00:19:00] Explanations for this. Uh, obviously East Germany still, uh, lacks behind in terms of economic development and, uh, they suffered a lot, you know, first as being part of, you know, the East German state, but also then in the reunification, some areas did not profit.

[00:19:18] Isabel Cademartori: They, uh, young people left the area. They’re just basical. Older people left, uh, who stayed there, or the people who feel kind of, they were left behind and did not participate in this, you know, pros, prosperity of the unification. Um, there’s maybe also, you know, a lack of democratic. Awareness, having lived in an undemocratic state for so many decades themselves, also the these institutions that we have built up in the Federal Republic of Germany, who to defend democracy, to promote democracy, you know, with help.

[00:19:54] Isabel Cademartori: From the allies. That didn’t happen in East Germany, that [00:20:00] socialization. And so a lot of things come together, which maybe offer some explanations. Uh, some people would argue that, um, the. , you know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a question of feeling kind of left behind and not economically as strong as other parts of the country.

[00:20:18] Isabel Cademartori: I mean, you have similar discussions in the us however, this group shows that, you know, these were not poor people who were planning this. These are, you know, lawyers, Dr. Prince, a, uh, former member of Parliament Policeman. So, As it was with the Nazi time, it comes from the middle of the Zi, uh, the people who promote this kind of idea.

[00:20:43] Jeremi Suri: Right, right. Well, a as always, those who are really poor, uh, don’t have the opportunity to participate in this. It tends to be those who, who we, we say in, in English have downward mobility. Right. People who think they should be doing better than they are and they fear that they’re going the wrong way. Uh, you did, I think, allude to the [00:21:00] issue of immigration, and that’s certainly a big issue in the United States in motivating right wing extremism in France.

[00:21:07] Jeremi Suri: Is that true in Germany as well?

[00:21:09] Isabel Cademartori: Absolutely. So we see that this rice burger exists, uh, since the 1980s, but only since, you know, mid 2000 tens have there been a. Renaissance also in the public, you know, showing of these groups. And that is, I think, very obviously linked to the refugee, uh, groups that came to Germany during that time.

[00:21:35] Isabel Cademartori: And the discussion started about refugees. During that time, and then, you know, there have been other things happening, maybe even before that. There was a financial crisis, then was a refugee crisis. Now there’s Corona crisis. Now we have energy crisis, which, uh, we haven’t talked about that yet. But they also found that this group, uh, were seeking context to Russia and, uh, trying to, you know, start [00:22:00] negotiations with them.

[00:22:01] Isabel Cademartori: Some of these high spoke I have like exile government. So they, um, put people in power that are, uh, the actual government of the actual German Right. As they see it and, and seek, uh, you know, peace treaty with, with Russia, we kind of laugh about it because it’s so ridiculous at some point. And, but it’s, you know, it, it can be very d.

[00:22:26] Jeremi Suri: And, and I did want to ask about Russia, um, because it’s a, obviously an issue we deal with in the US as well, and with the war in Ukraine and Russian aggression in Ukraine, it, it’s only more significant every day. To what extent do you see evidence of the Russian government and per those working for, uh, Vladimir Putin perhaps trying to manipulate this movement?

[00:22:48] Isabel Cademartori: Um, I think there. Connections. Obviously they feel connected to Russia and we know the a f d are the biggest defenders of Russia in the German parliament. In the German political [00:23:00] scene. They’re, uh, they tried, like I said, to, to form ties Now with, with Russia, uh, I don’t know. Uh, the, the federal prosecutor said that they don’t know that Russia responded to this.

[00:23:16] Isabel Cademartori: So I don’t know if there was like an actual cooperation with this specific group. However, we know from the past that in this whole conspiracy scene the Russia plays a very active part. Um, there have been investigations showing that a lot of the anti-vaccination, con conspiracy groups, uh, are fed from Russia and.

[00:23:40] Isabel Cademartori: uh, the channels on Telegram and stuff are, uh, actually managed from Russia. And, um, it’s a gateway. If you start telling people that vaccines are dangerous, and I’m talking about the anti-vaccine groups before Corona vaccine discussion, like even before that, there were people who were just generally anti-vaccine.

[00:23:59] Isabel Cademartori: And it’s [00:24:00] a gateway to open people’s mind to the idea that what they are telling you, those people in the government, it’s not. . And from there they start feeding you other stuff. And we know from even before this happened in, before the war, that Russia plays an active part in this kind of disinformation and conspiracy theory.

[00:24:19] Isabel Cademartori: Uh, , um, spreading

[00:24:22] Jeremi Suri: a Absolutely. And, and they, they’ve made a science, as you say, of, of using the internet as a gateway to, uh, encouraging distrust and, uh, often, um, violence against governments and others. So, so that, that certainly fits with a pattern of Russian behavior. Um, and, and, Everything you’re describing has so many parallels in the United States.

[00:24:43] Jeremi Suri: Uh, of course, I, I would, I would point out that your discussion of the dilemmas of how to deal with members of Parliament who might be, uh, collaborating with these extreme groups. Of course, we have the same issue in the United States. We have members of the House of Representatives who, uh, were supportive and in many ways, [00:25:00] uh, collaborated with those who led the insurrection, a violent insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th, 2021.

[00:25:06] Jeremi Suri: Many of. Are, are in par, are in our parliament, in our Congress right now, and it’s a difficult issue. How do you expel people like that? What, what are the appropriate moves? What is the German government and what are you as a member of the German government trying to do? What is your strategy toward dealing with these groups, knowledgeable of the history of them that you, that you bring to the table?

[00:25:29] Isabel Cademartori: Yeah, so I think for one, in one part you have to look obviously at the security service services and that they keep a close eye on close tab on these groups and really, um, see the threat that they post on democracy, because even conservatives in Germany and the c D. even, were pretty, you know, hesitant to react to this raid in the past week.

[00:25:54] Isabel Cademartori: So the leader of the opposition didn’t say anything for a week about it. And just yesterday he [00:26:00] made a statement kind of, yeah, it was good that, you know, they were rated, a lot of conservative commentators were like, downplaying it, saying that, oh, they took, uh, down a group of. , uh, of pension. How do you say it?

[00:26:15] Isabel Cademartori: like old people, you know, with crazy ideas. And, um, so, so one big part of it is take it seriously and really, you know, put your apparatus that we do have to protect our democracy to work, to really deal with this sh threat. And, um, on the other hand, obviously, to try to address the roots, why people even turn.

[00:26:39] Isabel Cademartori: Type of ideology and uh, Corona was a big problem. People were very lonely. So everything you do, I think, to bring people together and strengthen the democracy. Will help you, you know, avoid people drifting away into these kinds of, uh, conspiracy thinking.

[00:26:59] Jeremi Suri: So, so what [00:27:00] I hear you saying is there has to be a deeper approach at, uh, addressing the roots of, uh, alienation.

[00:27:06] Jeremi Suri: The roots of despair. The roots of disconnection that so many

[00:27:10] Isabel Cademartori: people feel. There have been also like very immediate measures that we are discussing. Like, uh, we are discussing now whether we should, um, tighten our weapon. , uh, holding loss. I know in the U us it’s a very, uh, , uh, emotional issue. In Germany, not so much, but we already have pretty strict laws in terms of who is allowed to, uh, to buy and, uh, have weapons, but to make it even more restrictive and also very important part of it because a lot of these people who are active in these groups came from, you know, the police and the army to make it easier to.

[00:27:50] Isabel Cademartori: People from public service who are known to you know, have ideas, follow ideas, there are anti-democratic.

[00:27:58] Jeremi Suri: It, it’s striking to me. I [00:28:00] Isabelle that in both of our societies, despite the differences, very big differences in gun laws. Um, one similarity is in the, uh, events we’ve seen around the, the US Capitol on January 6th and the events you’re describing, you do see a very large number.

[00:28:15] Jeremi Suri: Of police and military, uh, officials or former police, military officials involved, and that’s worrisome. Right? When you’re saying that we have to strengthen the security services, how can we be sure we’re not strengthening the people who are the, the source of this problem?

[00:28:30] Isabel Cademartori: Well, I think part of strengthening the security services services is as.

[00:28:34] Isabel Cademartori: Strengthening the people’s democratic, you know, beliefs and views within those services. And being very, uh, ruthless about removing people from these services that do not share those ideas. And that that doesn’t mean that you distrust the service. It means you actually care about these services and are strengthening them, uh, by removing people who do not belong in these types of.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Jeremi Suri: This has been, uh, so insightful and for our listeners who I think, um, uh, know more about the United States perhaps than Germany, I think the, the parallels and what you’re describing are chillingly similar. They really are. Um, and, and we always like to close Isabel with an optimistic note. Uh, I know you’re an optimist.

[00:29:20] Jeremi Suri: You bring, uh, youthful optimism to the German Bundestag. I wish we had more members like you in our system, in the US also, uh, Do you see as the, the tasks that ordinary citizens, those who are listening to us, uh, that they can do to help, how can they use this history and knowledge that you’ve shared with them of your society and perhaps their society if they’re in the United States?

[00:29:44] Jeremi Suri: How can they use this information to be part of the solution and not part of the problem?

[00:29:50] Isabel Cademartori: I think the most important thing is to engage. With society, with people to have these discussions. If you hear people saying [00:30:00] crazy stuff, spreading conspiracy theories, you have to. Say something and not, you know, teach them not to be arrogant with them, but engage in discussions.

[00:30:12] Isabel Cademartori: Even sometimes we don’t want to feel tired and, uh, feel like, oh, whatever, you know, you can’t change anything. I think it’s important to create, uh, a society where there’s truth and accept the truth and not just, uh, different versions of the truth, uh, around and, um, We can only enforce that by really engaging and having these discussions.

[00:30:35] Isabel Cademartori: And they’re also, you know, looking out for each other. If people are drifting away, are, you know, inside, uh, too much, spend too much time online and you feel like , they’re kind of leaving the, uh, the path of, of enormous society. You know, reach out and, and try, you know, to look out for one.

[00:30:53] Jeremi Suri: It’s so important, right?

[00:30:55] Jeremi Suri: As, as Eli Viel reminded us, silence is a choice and [00:31:00] democracy and truth must be defended. Uh, not simply passively allowed to disintegrate before our eyes. I think that’s what you’re reminding us of, Zachary, uh, as, as a young person who cares deeply about these issues and these issues every day in our society in the United States, both when you go online and when you see people saying, uh, ridiculous conspiracy.

[00:31:21] Jeremi Suri: Things of one kind or another. Uh, h how does this discussion of what’s happening in Germany help you to think through these issues?

[00:31:28] Zachary Suri: Well, I think one of the things that’s so inspiring about this discussion is, uh, I think what what it, what has helped me realize, and I hope it has helped our listeners realize as well, is that our dedication to democracy is mirrored, uh, and, and reflected and enhanced around the world.

[00:31:43] Zachary Suri: And that I would hope. And, and perhaps most strongly symbolized by the people of Ukraine. We are seeing a renewed dedication around the world to democracy and, uh, to, uh, taking all threats to democracy seriously and seriously dedicating [00:32:00] ourselves, uh, to protecting democracy in our daily lives and in our roles as public servants and professionals.

[00:32:06] Jeremi Suri: And it’s why we do this podcast each week isn’t right. And I, I think it’s why our listeners, uh, listen. Final, uh, words, uh, Isabel, are you optimistic? .

[00:32:16] Isabel Cademartori: Absolutely. I think actually this raid was a good day for democracy because we sh we show that we, we will defend our democracy and it is valuable to us and there’s a lot of people, uh, working every day to make it work better and for more people.

[00:32:33] Isabel Cademartori: So I’m absolutely optimistic that things. , you know, get better. I mean, 22 was a rough year, but it can only get better,

[00:32:42] Jeremi Suri: I hope , it can well. I am optimistic, as I’ve told you before, Isabel, because we have people like you, like Isabel Kaori, uh, in, uh, major Democratic legislatures around the world. I think a young generation of people who care about democracy and care about the [00:33:00] truth, uh, and have some historical knowledge, uh, those who listen to our podcast, uh, make our democracy.

[00:33:06] Jeremi Suri: And, and having you, uh, in the German parliament, I think makes, makes a huge difference. Uh, thank you so much for joining us today, Isabel. Kato. Thanks so much Zachary. Thank you as well. Uh, I hope our listeners will follow Isabel, by the way, you can look her up, uh, on Twitter and Facebook and and elsewhere.

[00:33:26] Jeremi Suri: And if you wanna practice your German following her news updates, we’ll, we’ll help you to practice your German. That’s one of the ways Zachary and I use her, use her social media , and, and most of all, I want to thank our loyal listeners for joining us for this episode of this. Democracy.

[00:33:45] Outro: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts I t S Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Kini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. [00:34:00] You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.