This is Democracy – Episode 217: Anti-Semitism

[00:00:00] Intro: This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice

[00:00:21] Intro: in what happens next.

[00:00:29] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy. This week we are going to discuss, uh, the rise of antisemitism in the United States in recent months and years. This is not a new story. Antisemitism has a long, long history in the United States and in many other societies. Uh, but there’s a lot of evidence of rising antisemitic. Violence and related, uh, behavior in the United States just in the recent months and years.

[00:00:54] Jeremi: And we are gonna discuss today why this is the case, where it comes from, how we understand it, and [00:01:00] what we can do about it. We’re joined by an old friend and really I think the person who is writing the most. Interesting work on a day to day basis, as well as in a broader, scholarly perspective on these issues.

[00:01:13] Jeremi: This is Peter Beinart. He’s a professor of journalism and political science, uh, at the Newmark School of Journalism at the City University of New York. He’s the editor at large of Jewish currents and. MSNBC political commentator. He’s also a frequent contributor to the New York Times. He’s a non-resident fellow at the Foundation for Middle East Peace, and he’s involved in so many other groups.

[00:01:37] Jeremi: Most important, what I wanna highlight and encourage everyone to read is the Binar Notebook Newsletter. It’s, uh, and his last name is spelled b e i n a r t and we’ll have this linked on the website as well. It’s the Biard Notebook, which is a newsletter available through Sub Stack, and it’s filled, uh, almost every day with really interesting insights [00:02:00] on questions related to antisemitism, but also broader issues on US policy toward Israel and various other related issues.

[00:02:07] Jeremi: Uh, when he has free time. I don’t know when that is. Uh, Peter is also an active writer of. He published The Good Fight in 2006, his second book, uh, which I know well, the IOUs Syndrome, uh, was published in 2010, which is on the hubris of Foreign Policy at times. And then his third book, uh, really a very important book published in 2012, The Crisis of Zionism.

[00:02:33] Jeremi: Peter writes frequently, as I said, for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and every other major publication. Peter, thank you so much for joining us today. My

[00:02:43] Peter: pleasure. Thanks for having me. Before

[00:02:45] Jeremi: we get to our discussion, uh, with Peter Biard, we have of course, uh, Mr. Zachary’s scene setting poem.

[00:02:51] Jeremi: What’s the title of your poem today? Zachary Mazua Addendum. . Mazu Addendums. And before you start, maybe just so all of our listeners [00:03:00] understand what is a mazua?

[00:03:01] Zachary: Uh, so mazua is, uh, little, I think piece of metal or ceramic or wood. The, the Shama in it, uh, uh, which is, uh, one of the central prayers of Judaism that we, uh, put slanted, uh, at the threshold of our homes or on the gate.

[00:03:15] Zachary: Right. And why do we do that as Jews? Uh, I think I, I don’t know the theological basis, but I think it’s sort of a symbol of our commitment to, uh, the principles, uh, in the shima and, uh, the values of Judaism.

[00:03:28] Jeremi: I think that’s right. Okay. Let’s hear the poem. Thank you, Zachary. Okay.

[00:03:31] Zachary: I walk down the sidewalk along the creek.

[00:03:34] Zachary: The sun is obscured, defaced by the gray clouds. Across on the other side of the street is the synagogue where they tried to make us afraid. I can still remember the sirens in the neighborhood on that October night as if in a year of violence we would never have silence. I write because I want to forget that moment I write because I never want to think again like this [00:04:00] split second, that has been a year that I am not at home, that I am in exile in a foreign city.

[00:04:07] Zachary: An unpleasant reminder. That memory refuses to be rewritten as if the words written out again will finally convince me of their. I am home. I write because maybe if the 18 year old who drove 30 miles from San Marcos with kerosene and a lighter in a car he borrowed from his mother, if he had heard one of my poems, if he had sung one of our prayers, maybe he wouldn’t think I was a monster.

[00:04:35] Zachary: I write because I wear my emotions on my sleeve, not because it helps or feels good or seems truthful, like crying on a rainy day, but because this is my never forget, my never forgiven my, I will never be forgotten. I wrap the words in a floral ceramic. I hold myself a little slanted at the threshold. I nail my thoughts into the wood like a [00:05:00] mazua.

[00:05:00] Zachary: I am home. I can say. Even when I’m a thousand miles away,

[00:05:06] Peter: and

[00:05:07] Jeremi: there’s so many references layered into that lovely poem. Zachary, what, what is your poem about? My poem is really

[00:05:12] Zachary: about, uh, reflecting on the last year, uh, in my Jewish community. Um, a year after someone my age, uh, tried to, uh, or successfully set our synagogue on fire and, uh, destroyed our sanctuary or prevented us from praying in it for at least another.

[00:05:28] Zachary: Year or two. Um, and it’s, it’s about, uh, the sense of, um, loss, um, but also, uh, potentially despair that I think many of us in the community felt after that.

[00:05:39] Jeremi: Thank you Zachary. And thank you for reflecting on that. Uh, uh, Peter, uh, how do we know that we’re seeing more antisemitism, more of the kinds of incidents that Zachary.

[00:05:51] Peter: The truth is we actually don’t. Um, uh, I mean we do know that, of course, that there have been some terrifying high profile violent incidents [00:06:00] in Power California, in Pittsburgh, in in Texas. Um, and I do think we can say that, that it’s hard to find recent precedence like that. But, but one of the challenging things about saying that antisemitism is rising in general though, people say it all the time, is first of all, that the data collect.

[00:06:18] Peter: Systems are not very good for various reasons. Um, uh, and secondly that there is not actually a consensus definition of antisemitism. So there’s a very, uh, quite fierce debate about whether certain kinds of things like. Opposing the existence of Israel as a Jewish state or wanting to boycott Israel, um, uh, are antisemitic.

[00:06:39] Peter: And depending on how one comes down on those questions, that of course will influence how much antisemitism one sees. So it’s not actually as simple a question as one might think to say that antisemitism is rising.

[00:06:52] Jeremi: And, and what’s your perception, Peter, as someone who follows this closely and I think is very fair minded about it?

[00:06:57] Jeremi: What’s, what’s your perspective? [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Peter: I think that. Donald Trump certainly trafficked in more antisemitic tropes. The idea that Jews only care about money. The I Jews, that Jews are loyal to Israel than any president in recent decades. You have to go back quite a while to find presidents who spoke that way, and I think that is significant.

[00:07:23] Peter: And I think that Trump also created a culture on the American right parts of the American. That kind of glory in transgressing certain norms of decency and, and one way of, um, transgressing those norms is to, to flirt with antisemitism. I also think that the backlash. Against globalization and against immigration and a desire for a kind of white kind of ethnonationalism that would main, main, make sure that white Christian Americans [00:08:00] remain on top.

[00:08:01] Peter: That can often, that often also blurs into antisemitism. So I think those things are significant cultural development. So I’m not saying I don’t think antisemitism is rising. If I had to bet, I would say it is. I just think it’s actually difficult to prove empiric.

[00:08:17] Jeremi: Right, Right. And I guess, I guess for me, Peter, as someone who has, you know, spent so many years teaching about the horrors of, uh, antisemitism in Germany in our own country and teaching to what appears to be a very receptive audience of students and writing for what appears to be a very receptive reading audience, how is it possible.

[00:08:40] Jeremi: That antisemitism remains so prevalent in our society. Why has it not gone away? Why are you not saying, Wow, I, I see a reduction in antisemitism because of all the work we’ve done as educators. Why have we failed?

[00:08:52] Peter: Well, but I actually think you’re, you’re, you’re getting something which is really important for us not to forget, which is there is an enormous amount of femm [00:09:00] in the United States.

[00:09:01] Peter: We shouldn’t lose track of that. In fact, there was some tolling, I think done by Pew recently that showed that American Jews are the most highly esteemed religious group in the United States. One of the interesting things about American Jews is they’re actually quite highly esteemed, essentially on both sides of America’s partisan and ideological divide, although perhaps for different reasons.

[00:09:21] Peter: Whereas if you look at evangelical Christians, they’re much less white, evangelical conservative Christians, less esteemed by progressives, and, and sadly, if you look at more, uh, Muslims for instance, they’re much less esteemed among conservative Americans. So there is, and, and j and American. Have, are very firmly embedded in both American political parties from the really, the bottom to the, to the top.

[00:09:43] Peter: So I think it’s important for us not to lose sight of that. Um, but I, I do think that antisemitism, although it’s different than other, it has its own particular contours and features. Also tends to rise and fall often with, [00:10:00] um, uh, kind of a general hostility to, um, to outsiders. Um, whether it’s immigrants, um, Muslims, uh, uh, black Americans.

[00:10:11] Peter: And so you see that in a lot of these cases where you have these terrible, violent attacks. These people also had animus against other groups as well. And you see in some of the other cases, for instance, the terrible massacre in in Buffalo recently where a Black Americans were killed, that that Shooter’s manifesto had an enormous amount of antisemitism in it.

[00:10:32] Peter: So there is a kind of ideological stew here, which tends to often tell a story. And the story is often something along the lines of, it’s a hideous story. The story is basically that America is being invaded and taken over by non. People by, By, by Latinos, by, by blacks, by Muslims. And the Jews are secretly aiding that because they are the kind of sinister evil geniuses, the kind of George Soros figure looms large in this, who are essentially [00:11:00] organizing these hordes of black and brown people to come and and destroy the United States.

[00:11:06] Peter: I think what

[00:11:06] Zachary: you’re talking about is in many ways an old story and certainly one that seems, uh, very familiar to anyone who is a serious student of history. But is there a way in which this is also a story of, of new technology and perhaps a social media or internet landscape that is not regulated or, uh, or s or truthful

[00:11:27] Peter: as it should be?

[00:11:29] Peter: Yeah, I mean, I think that the technology allows people. Find one another and create online communities, um, that then can then reinforce their own pathology. So if we think about, you know, uh, Henry Ford’s newspaper, what was it called? The Dear the Dearborn. Something I think, uh, you know, where he was basically publishing the protocols of the elders of Zion.

[00:11:50] Peter: They already. Contributing it for dealerships. Right. Um, so obviously the technology allow nows you be much more global and move much more quickly. And I think [00:12:00] especially in an era where people are often isolated from their neighbors and certainly cuz of Covid people then find these online communities.

[00:12:07] Peter: And then you sometimes have these algorithms which essentially take whatever you’re looking for online and give you even. Pure and, and kind of more dramatic, uh, versions of that. And so you can then see how people go down this rabbit hole. I’ve seen some interesting, you know, some suggestions that this process of radicalization when it comes to, let’s say white nationalist antisemites, has a lot in common with the process of, of radicalization that we see with people who end up in isis.

[00:12:35] Peter: Hmm.

[00:12:35] Jeremi: And, and I want to connect this Peter to something else. You’ve written a lot about, uh, US views, American views of Israel. One of the things I find paradoxical is that in the last 10 to 20 years, it appears to me, and I know you’ve written about this, uh, that um, Americans feel more. More support, they express more support for Israel.

[00:12:55] Jeremi: Whether they feel more connected or not, I guess, is more complicated, but they express support for Israel across a [00:13:00] political spectrum, especially non-Jews, than they did before. But yet we also see these lingering antisemitic attitudes, uh, sometimes in the same communities. How is that possible? How do we understand?

[00:13:13] Peter: I would say a couple of things. First of all, what’s happened to American support for Israel is that like so much else in, in American politics, it’s become bifurcated along partisan lines. So what you see is that while overall US support for Israel hasn’t really changed that much, what’s happened is that Republican support has grown and democratic support, particularly among younger people.

[00:13:33] Peter: On the among self-described liberals has gone down and so on in, in very progressive spaces. You now have a very live debate over. The whole question of the legitimacy of, uh, not just Israeli policy, but of, of a Jewish state of a state, that by law and by its own self-identification, um, privileges, Jews over Palestinians and.

[00:13:57] Peter: That move and also a move towards [00:14:00] boycotting Israel. Given that that, that there seems no for for people, some for people who are upset about the denial of Palestinian freedom, there seems no other way, but to put pressure on Israel to try to change a human rights situation that I think they see and I would agree is intolerable.

[00:14:16] Peter: Now this gets interpreted. As antisemitism by many American politicians and also many American Jewish organizations. I actually don’t think it’s antisemitism. Um, I don’t think calling for equality under the law between Israelis and uh, Israeli Jews and Palestinians is antisemitic. But what does happen is that sometimes people take out their hostility towards Israel on j.

[00:14:43] Peter: That, um, that they tragically, um, kind of blur the line between Israel as a. Who has policies and even who has an entire constitutional system that one might oppose. And Jews who then become stand-ins and representatives for Israel. [00:15:00] Whether it means that a Jewish student on campus is asked to, you know, kind of justify or ex defend a position on Israel when they should not have to do that, or is held responsible even worse for a position or even worse, in which Jews are actually.

[00:15:14] Peter: And you see this perhaps more in Europe than in the United States, but it happens here because people are, and this particularly, there’s some studies that show that this rise in antisemitic violence tends to increase when in proportion to the number of Palestinians killed by the idf. And so it is a terribly misguided, uh, and indeed antisemitic way to take out your frustrations with the Israeli.

[00:15:37] Peter: And, and

[00:15:37] Jeremi: what about on the right? Uh, my, my grandmother always warned that, uh, certain Christians, she thought who wanted to see Jews back in, in Israel, and it wasn’t really to help the Jews. And that there was actually at the core of that something that was, was dangerous for Jews. Do, do you see some of that in this sort of religious dispensationalism?

[00:15:57] Jeremi: The evangelical, uh, [00:16:00] desire to sometimes flagrantly support the state of Israel and it’s, it’s more belligerent

[00:16:04] Peter: policies. I do, but I think we should admit that Jews are not of one opinion about this, right? They are. They’re a significant number of Jews, particularly in the Orthodox community in the United States and in Israel, who, um, are, are quite happy to have the support of, of kind of people on the political right in the United States, Evangelical Christians, and around the world.

[00:16:25] Peter: Victor Orban, for instance, although he’s expressed antisemitic tropes against George Soros in Hungary, is a big fan of Israel the way I would put it. I think that people on the right, whether they’re in the United States or in Europe, uh, or even other places, really like the idea that states should be owned by a particular dominant, ethno religious racial group.

[00:16:50] Peter: That’s what they want for their own countries. That often makes them very admiring of Israel because Israel is such a state. It has democratic [00:17:00] features, particularly for. But it is an cracy. It is a country that is built around the eth racial religious identity of one particular group. It has a very extreme immigration policy to maintain its demographic character, which is exactly what conservatives in Europe and the United States want.

[00:17:17] Peter: So this deep admiration and even seeing Israel as a kind of model. On the other hand, often when those people look at the Jews in their own countries, they feel like the Jews in their own countries are part of the opposition to the political project they’re trying to create. Because those people re oppose the idea of, of defining these countries in Christian terms and often allow themselves with.

[00:17:40] Peter: Other marginalized groups, whether they’re L G B T folks or black folk folks are immigrants in pushing for a civic nationalism, which is based on the idea that no ethnic or racial or religious group should be able to claim ownership of the state. And this is what produces the dichotomy often in which you see.

[00:17:58] Peter: A deep admiration and even love [00:18:00] for the state of Israel. But, um, uh, a not very, but often a kind of adversarial view towards the Jews in one’s own country.

[00:18:07] Jeremi: That’s very well explained. I mean, it’s in essence that, that the proper place for Jews in this, in this vision is in Israel, not necessarily in wherever this other group lives in the United States.

[00:18:20] Peter: That is exactly right. And in fact, even if you look at some of these horrific manifestos by some of these killers, you see that they’re filled with antisemitic material and then they will, they, they say, you know, it would be okay if the Jews would just stay in their place. It’s just that they are now in our place.

[00:18:39] Peter: And, and, and I, you see that in, you see that in kind of various different ways expressed to various degrees on the political. And,

[00:18:47] Jeremi: And I guess Peter, this really compelling explanation you’ve given turns us to, I think the natural place we have to go in the discussion. What have we done about this? What can we do about this?

[00:18:58] Jeremi: So let’s start with the former, [00:19:00] the history, which is always at the core of our analysis on the podcast. You know, what in the past has worked to address some of these tropes

[00:19:09] Peter: as you. Well, I mean, I think, you know, you probably know this history better than me, but I, I do think that one of the things that led to a dramatic decline in antisemitism in the United States, um, that happened between the early 20th century and the kind of mid 20th century is that World War II made antisemitism associated with America’s enemy.

[00:19:31] Peter: That was the German, that was what the Germans did. Um, and so in a, in a, in a sense it made it almost kind of unAmerican to be antisemitic. And I think that contributed to a dramatic decline in antisemitism in the post-war decades. I also think that the success of the civil Rights movement, Was critically important in allowing Jews to attain full equality.

[00:19:52] Peter: Before the civil Rights movement, there were still, you know, certain kind of industries where Jews were limited. Universities where there were quotas. I think [00:20:00] American Jews leader, Jewish leadership wisely understood. The success of the civil rights movement would create an environment in which that Jews could very much benefit from.

[00:20:09] Peter: And I think that’s been true. And so I guess, um, uh, that my overall taker would, would be that I think at the end of the day, that the levels of antisemitism United States are gonna have a lot to do with the strength of liberal democracy in the United States. That to the degree America, Um, be remains and becomes a country that as it becomes more diverse, racially, religiously, in other.

[00:20:36] Peter: Um, that the more we can successfully manage that and create a country that, that is, that more and more sees everybody as deserving equality, regardless of their differences, um, that Jews will flourish in such an environment, but that if that, Fails and we move essentially into some kind of period, which is more like, you know, the period after the failed effort at reconstruction.

[00:20:59] Peter: [00:21:00] Um, then I think that, um, Jews will be in a very, very awkward position because right now what we see with in, in certain many elements of the kind of white. Christian Right, is a willingness to essentially allow Jews to be on the side of the victors to some degree, right? You see this in the word Judeo-Christian, right?

[00:21:20] Peter: That we are a Judeo-Christian nation, which means essentially not, not the Muslims, That it means that the Muslims are not real Americans, but the Jews will be considered real Americans. But I think it’s Condit. Right. That, that this, this, this, this invitation to be with the winners is conditional with Jews actually accepting and being willing to side with white Christians in a country in which they are dominant.

[00:21:44] Peter: And if American Jews don’t, and I, and and I, and I think that our best traditions. Would suggest we should not then I think we potentially are in an adversarial relationship with people who may hold power, um, in a less democratic, less liberal [00:22:00] country, and that could be dangerous.

[00:22:02] Jeremi: Peter, do you think that that dynamic you just, uh, unpacked so well?

[00:22:06] Jeremi: Do you think that’s what puts a lot of pressure on certain Jews to sometimes, uh, apologize or turn away from behavior that they themselves would in other circumstances be uncomfortable with?

[00:22:20] Peter: Yes. But I also think it’s important to remember that there are quite a significant number of Jews, not a majority by any means, but let’s say roughly 25% and and including many in very influential positions who generally have decided that.

[00:22:35] Peter: That they believe that Jewish welfare, by which they mean the security of the state of Israel and the welfare of American Jews will be better off tying ourselves to figures like Donald Trump and then Ron DeSantis, et cetera, because they actually, they, they worry that a country that is more diverse, that expresses the political opinions of, of people of color will become less hostile.

[00:22:58] Peter: Sorry, more hostile to the [00:23:00] state of Israel. And, um, and it’s also, this is not a, a happy side of, of Jewish history, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that this has happened before. You know, um, my family is South African. So South African Jews now like to celebrate the many influential Jews who were in the African National Congress.

[00:23:17] Peter: And there were many of them. Um, what they often like to forget is that in the very trial, The famous Rivonia trial where all of the white defendants were Jews, along with Mandela, Um, uh, um, um, under the Apartheid regime, the prosecutor was a. He was actually the president of an orthodox synagogue in Johannesburg and he had made a decision that he genuinely believed that what was best for South African Jews was to show their loyalty to a partake.

[00:23:45] Peter: So this division, uh, is not new. And um, and there are people who genuinely hold this position on either side. I just happen to believe that. I don’t think it’s in our self-interest, nor do I think it’s in our ethical, best ethical [00:24:00] tradition to essentially say we’re gonna look after ourselves and, and, and not fight for the rights of other people.

[00:24:08] Zachary: In in that, in that context, then how should we interpret? Um, what I think has been a rather surprising, at least for me, trend of, of people in positions of power or, or influence like Kanye West, uh, and the sort of spouting of, of these conspiracy theories in a very nonchalant way. And then the very, uh, sort of subsequent response to that seems to.

[00:24:32] Zachary: all of these trends of, of either femm or antisemitism mixed together in a very sort of strange concoction. How, how do you think we understand that in this

[00:24:41] Peter: context? Well, I think to try to understand Kanye West, I think , first of all, who could understand Kanye West, right? He’s a crazy person, but, but the, the tropes that he’s playing into, I think one needs to kind of acknowledge, have a particular history in the black Jewish [00:25:00] relationship that, that go, You can read this, you know, going back to James Baldwin’s famous essay.

[00:25:04] Peter: Blacks are anti-Jewish because they’re anti-white, or in the 19. The way fig figures like Louis Farhan or Leonard Jeffries, there has been for many decades in the United States, you, you could say a certain class conflict that sometimes exists between black and Jewish Americans. Um, because of the way in which black Americans have.

[00:25:24] Peter: Been economically marginalized and dispossessed and the way Jews in certain industries, historically, often as they did traditionally in Europe too, ended up being in a kind of a middle position in which they were often interacting in black communities, whether it was Jewish landlords or shop keepers, um, uh, um, and it, or in some, in the music industry, now agents or whatever, and tragically, sometimes that class conflict has been expressed.

[00:25:51] Peter: In antisemitic terms, not in focusing on the economic structural realities that might need to be responded to, but in suggesting that somehow [00:26:00] Jew, it is Jewish malevolence that has led blacks to not have the kind of, the, the economic power that they, they should have in the United States. And I think Kanye West was giving a, a kind of certain twist on that.

[00:26:13] Peter: And I think that, It’s something that, that, you know, needs to be acknowledged and needs to be challenged and fought against. And I, but I think what’s was so worrying about the Kanye West situation was that because of what’s happened with Donald Trump, Kanye West’s version of anti sem was now able to kind of jump the ideological shark and where, where it used to be con, confined to a certain kind of black.

[00:26:37] Peter: Radical, you know, uh, position now, it has actually also this support and home on the white Christian nationalist, right? And I think that’s what Donald Trump has done. He’s created that possibility.

[00:26:50] Jeremi: So Trump has come up a lot, Peter, and oftentimes when, when I’ve said, um, similar things about Trump as a catalyst for antisemitism in, [00:27:00] in many domains, um, people will come back and say, Well, but he has a, uh, Orthodox Jewish, um, son-in-law and, and his daughter’s converted.

[00:27:09] Jeremi: And, uh, what I, just to get it on the record, what’s your response to that?

[00:27:14] Peter: Well, you know, It’s, it’s silly, right? I mean, we all know that it’s quite possible to like Jews in as individuals, whether they’re your friends or even your family, but not to like them in the abstract or not to like certain groups of them.

[00:27:32] Peter: This is actually quite common. I think if you looked at. Prominent antisemites across, you know, in modern history, you’d find that very frequently they actually had some Jews, I think even Hitler, you know, I think there was a Jewish doctor who would, you know, who would, you know, yes Met, helped his mother and he tried to, you know, make sure that person didn’t, It really doesn’t matter.

[00:27:52] Peter: What matters is that. Trump is that Trump uses these, um, these tropes partly because I [00:28:00] think he just has a very stereotypical kind of view of all groups, to be honest. Um, but, and, and partly because I think we also need to be honest that some of the things that Trump says about Jews, that Jews don’t love Israel enough are actually things that he.

[00:28:14] Peter: Other Jews say it’s quite common to hear conservative Jews in the Republican party saying about Jews in the Democratic party that they shouldn’t be, that they’re only voting democratic because they don’t like Israel enough. So he partly, I think, hears this from his Jewish friends. Um, but it’s also because I think he is trafficking in this notion that, um, there.

[00:28:36] Peter: Real Americans and there are not real Americans. And that, um, that Jews are, that there is a, that Jewish relation of the United States is somehow is, is somewhat conditional. And it’s partly conditional because he’s such a ethic narcissist on whether Jews support him. And so if he sees Jews as political adversaries, then for him, because he defines himself with the state, with the country [00:29:00] itself, then there’s the danger that he sees Jews as essentially unpatriotic.

[00:29:05] Jeremi: Right. I think that, I think that captures it very well, and I think your point deserves underlining, uh, throughout, um, modern history, many of, uh, foremost anti-Semites, uh, had Jewish friends and people they protected who were Jewish. They just made exceptions for them. Yes. In the way that, in the way that anti-black racists like exception for their, for their friends.

[00:29:27] Jeremi: Christopher Browning’s book, Ordinary Men is. Searing in this, the, the, the, uh, killers of Jews who come from Hamburg and kill Jews in the Eastern front in World War ii. They, many of them had Jewish maids who they saved from the Holocaust. Wow. At the same

[00:29:41] Peter: time.

[00:29:41] Jeremi: Yeah. Uh, Peter, we, we always like to close the podcast by taking the, the wealth of knowledge that our guests have shared with us.

[00:29:48] Jeremi: Uh, and you’ve really shared so much with us that’s so powerful. And really trying to think forward, uh, trying to, to see some optimistic or at least useful pathways forward in this history that we’ve [00:30:00] uncovered. Uh, what do you think we should be doing? What are the hopeful signs or the hopeful possibilities you see out there?

[00:30:07] Peter: One hopeful possibility for me is that I think, um, there have been really remarkable moments in which Jews and other groups of vulnerable Americans have come together in acts of kind of self-protection and solidarity. Um, I think for instance, if you look at the Bernie Sanders campaign, you can agree or disagree.

[00:30:28] Peter: I tend. Like a lot of Bernie Sanders kind of positions, but even if you don’t like him, one of the things that was extraordinary about the Bernie Sanders campaign was the outpouring of support that he got from Muslim Americans. We are so often told, and I think this happens often in the Jewish community, sadly too, that somehow Muslims are.

[00:30:45] Peter: Predisposed antisemitism. In fact, Bernie Sanders was the overwhelming favorite of American Muslims. And I even remember very distinctly, there was a moment during the campaign where Bernie Sanders got sick and I, uh, uh, and [00:31:00] had to leave the campaign trail, and his health was in question for, and I saw online that a group of his Muslim supporters were essentially doing, I don’t know this, the, the, the term in Arabic, but essentially a kind of a prayer vigil for him.

[00:31:12] Peter: And I think it’s because. He, many people identified with him as an I. Um, uh, and, uh, many people, people appreciated the fact that, that as a, that, particularly as a Jew, that he supported Palestinian rights, that he saw Palestinians as deserving of full freedom and full equality. And it showed, I think, the extraordinary possibilities.

[00:31:33] Peter: You know, this elderly Jewish. Man whose family were killed in the Holocaust becoming this symbol for so many young American Muslims of the kind of America they wanted. And that seems to me to suggest the kind of solidarity, the kind of political movements that may be possible to keep us all safe.

[00:31:51] Jeremi: And, and what would you suggest to our, especially our young listeners, what should they be doing to be a part of just this pathway that you’re describing, Peter?[00:32:00]

[00:32:00] Peter: I would say, um, what they should be doing is, Fighting for the principle of equality under the law that all people, regardless of their race, religion, sex, gender, et cetera, deserve to be treated equally. I think if you hold to that principle, And then you look to defend it whenever it is being threatened, whether it’s black people being denied the right to vote, or, um, people, you know, using this, this dehumanizing, degrading language about, about Hispanics or, or about transgender people.

[00:32:37] Peter: That ultimately then you begin to knit together, um, a kind of the, the solidarity that’s necessary. For do you have to have the strength in numbers to protect all groups. And I think ultimately that is where the Jewish people are safest. I love it.

[00:32:53] Jeremi: Um, Zachary, it sounds like Peter is making a very strong case, right?

[00:32:57] Jeremi: For what we would call, uh, [00:33:00] liberal civil rights politics, right? An argument for equality for all under the law, equality for all and equal and equitable treatment in all domains. And that that will help not only deny the tropes of Antis semi. Also help Jews as well as other groups that have been vulnerable to bullying.

[00:33:18] Jeremi: Do you agree with that? And do you see that in action among young people like yourself? I think

[00:33:23] Zachary: so. I think that there’s a really strong opportunity for young people and particularly young Jewish Americans like myself, uh, to be a part of this future coalition. Um, but I do think that there is, in some circles, and I think we touched on this briefly, an unwillingness to.

[00:33:39] Zachary: To see the, uh, American Jewish experience as a part of this story. And I think part of, part of how we get to that point is acknowledging both the history of American Jews and often, uh, their complicity in certain structures that have denied access to others, but also the ways in which American Jews have.

[00:33:57] Zachary: Face discrimination in the United States.

[00:33:59] Jeremi: Right? So we need to [00:34:00] tell both sides at then we need to be able to

[00:34:01] Zachary: acknowledge that complexity.

[00:34:02] Jeremi: I think. And, and Peter, I just wanna close by actually making a plug for your, uh, B art, uh, notebook, because this is a topic you touch on quite often, correct. Yes. And, and I hope, I hope our listeners will continue the conversation.

[00:34:17] Jeremi: As always, our, our conversations each week are designed to open historical knowledge and, uh, stimulate more, more conversation around these issues. Peter, thank you so much for lending us your insights and bringing, uh, I think really a, a, a, a very powerful perspective and also, uh, a strong empirical basis to understanding these issues.

[00:34:39] Peter: Thank you, Peter. It’s my pleasure. Thank you.

[00:34:41] Jeremi: And Zachary, thank you for your moving poem, uh, as always, and your explanation of what a mizu is. I’ve been asked that question myself many times and thank you, most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this week of this is Democracy.[00:35:00]

[00:35:03] Peter: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Its Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Heroes Kini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:35:23] Peter: See you next time.