This is Democracy – Episode 216: Iran Protests

This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy. Today’s episode is going to focus on the democratic protests in Iran, the efforts by, uh, so many Iranian citizens, particularly women, to regain control over their lives and to try to change their society and the protests, the violence around the protests, and.

The changes that are happening and the resistance to change in Iran today, we are very fortunate to have with us an expert colleague and really a very insightful writer and observer of these issues. Nahid Siamdoust, uh, welcome Nahid.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Nahid is an assistant professor at the University of Texas at Austin, so she’s one of my colleagues.

I’m very fortunate to have her as a colleague. She’s written a book called The Soundtrack of the Revolution, The Politics of Music in Iran, and I’m sure that will come up uh, in today’s discussion. She’s a very act. Writer on cultural, political, social changes in Iran and elsewhere. She’s published really thoughtful pieces that I encourage everyone to look at.

In addition to her book, uh, pieces in the New York Times Foreign Policy, their Spiegel, which I think is Zachary’s favorite publication. That’s the German News magazine. And, uh, Jadaliyya. What is Jadaliyya?

So generally is a collective of Middle East studies scholars, and, uh, you will find all kinds of articles, in depth articles, interviews, podcasts, um, but it’s really a Middle East Studies collective with a public facing ethos.

Fantastic. Jadaliyya, I mispronounced it and I hope that’s okay. I will certainly have to take a look at it. I hope our listeners will. Nahid is multilingual. She appears in English, German, and, and Iranian media, so we’re very fortunate to have her with us today. Thank you. Before we turn to our discussion, uh, of Iran, we have of course Mr.

Uh, scene setting poem. What’s the title of your poem today, Zachary?

Worth Waiting.

Let’s hear it.

Resistance is the art of knowing how much you should give, of recognizing what is worth waiting for. It is putting on the mask of courage at the right time and coming triumphantly into the center of it all.

Unwilling to say anything except what is true, but the stage is life and the character is unpredictable. So we walk along in steps beating forward to the front of the line at the rationed shelves, requesting butter till the end of time. And the choice is truly far more significant. I picked up a bottle cap this morning as I crossed a field of weeds.

You walked right past it. Only minutes before we would pass each other again later under search lights, you walked away and I laid motionless in the street where they had met me with sticks you wanted. I wanted freedom.

What is your poem about Zachary?

My poem is really about the courage it takes, uh, to resist and to fight for freedom, uh, in the face of state power, but also in the, uh, face of the temptation to be apathetic, uh, to ignore the injustices around one, as we see in Iran today.

Nahid, your thoughts?

Well, I’ve got goosebumps. Um, that is just, that just really hits, uh, hits to. Core of the issue because, you know, people have risen up and it’s true. People are teenagers, high school students, they’re risking their lives on the streets asking for a different present and hoping for a different future.

And, um, and yet there are people still who are tied up in. You know, the normal, everyday mundane chores of life and perhaps haven’t opened their eyes yet to the struggle that is happening on the streets and the butter really just, um, yeah, cuts, cuts through to that. Thank you, Zach. That was really beautiful.

Thank you.

And, and the heat. I think you, like Zachary, hit on such a key point. Right? Most of the time, even though people are mistreated in various societies, and even though, uh, they resent their treatment, they don’t rise up because the the power of conformity. The power of survival, the pressure to survive.

Mm-hmm. , uh, usually dissuades people from protesting. Mm-hmm. , what changed in Iran recently? Why are we seeing these protests?

You know, um, these protests are really a culmination of many years of resistance and opposition in different areas of, uh, life. Um, and so what changed this time was really. You know, people expressing that they finally have had enough that the humiliation, the indignation, you know, with the imposed reality of the Islamic Republic, this, you know, divide that they kept between the ideology and the life that they’re imposing, which is so at odds with, with the inner lives that Iranians are living and or have been living openly on social media for at least a decade.

And I think what changed this time was the fact that. You know, these two realities are at such odds with each other and that the generation that’s come to the fore this time around, you know, the high school students who are on the students, they’re on the streets, the university students who are on the streets, um, they have lived a life that has been completely dual, right?

The public life that’s been imposed on them and their, their lives on, you know, with their friends in the private spaces, on their social media sites, and that kind of living on social media platforms has finally, Full on spillover effect to the point where, you know, a young woman being killed simply for not being dressed, uh, according to the ideals of the state, becomes absolutely outrageous and can no longer be, um, tolerated.

And who is participating?

Um, it’s very much cross, uh, generational. It’s, uh, cross-sectional, it’s cross, uh, you know, uh, minorities, uh, in your, it’s, it’s, it’s intersectional in many, many ways. So, as you know, mass, as you know, I mean, Was a Kurdish woman. And so, um, the Kurds were the first to rise up. Um, and immediately, um, people in Tehran, in the capital rose up to unite and, uh, show their solidarity with them.

And people all over Iran rose up. So we have the bauch. You know, Iran is a real patchwork of different ethnicities and, um, Iranians are, are very much proud of. Being a very diverse culture and having all these different languages and cultures as, as part of this great nation. And so the different ethnic minorities in Iran, the AZA is in the North Bauch, the Arabs in the Southwest, and of course the, you know, the Persians and, and others as well.

They’ve all risen up to say this is no longer about just one segment of society. This is not about the workers who rose up a couple years ago because of terrible working conditions. This is not just about. This is not just about the middle class of 10 years ago who was still, you know, trying to achieve reforms from within.

This has now, the conditions affect everybody equally because they are living conditions economically, socially, ideologically, intellectually, whether it’s political, social, cultural, on all these fronts. Um, people have been faced with, the state, has been imposed conditions on them that. Um, not worth living for and that our, uh, you know, for which it completely evades impunity.

So, um, you know, when somebody is killed by security forces, by the sepa such as Mahsa Amini, for example, under, you know, under the arrest of the, of the morality police, there’s just complete impunity for the state. And, um, people have just had.

They’re fed up with it, is what I’m hearing you say. And, and it’s worth just taking a step back for a second, I think, uh, it, it, it’s always struck me as someone who’s a non-expert, a very strange situation, right?

You have an Iranian population, which in some ways is so cosmopolitan. So, um, focused on, uh, rigorous and exciting and artistic activities in their private lives. Mm-hmm. , but yet you have this public morality, police, Islamic police, I guess, right? That are mm-hmm. trying to force people in public to cover themselves and, and various other limits on freedom.

Mm-hmm. , and it was the, as I understand it, it was the arrest mistreatment. Death of a young woman that’s triggered a lot of what we’ve seen now is that, is that accurate?

That is accurate. And you know, Iranians have a very cosmopolitan conception of themselves, and truly they are. They have, you know, they’re engaged with what’s happening in the world.

They’re often very knowledgeable about what’s happening in the rest of the world, culturally, politically. Um, and yet they, they are living. Uh, government that is trying to impose a very narrow definition of what it means to live, um, you know, an an Islamic life or a certain kind of Islamic life that they’re, they’re trying to impose on them.

And not only that, you know, over the last few, um, years, over the last decade or so, uh, people have seen increasingly sort of the hypocrisy that comes with this kind of imposition because they’ve seen that the children. Of the people leading this government of high government officials, they themselves, uh, send their children to study in the west abroad, living very westernized lifestyles, which are then displayed with quite sort of a lot of PO on some social media sites.

You know, the rich kids of, you know, these, um, these officials. And so the hypocrisy of imposing a certain kind of, Under the banner of Islam, right under this sort of hypocritical banner of Islam on the rest of the population, a kind of life that their own children don’t have to live. I think this, um, has been the, uh, recognition over the last few years that’s, um, boiled things over.

And, and how has the state itself responded? Has this been perceived as a sort of existential threat, or have there been attempts to sort of swiftly quell any, any form of resistance?

I think the state very much understands that this is an existential threat because like, as you know, there have been. You know, we had the biggest, uh, uprising after the revolution in 2009, uh, 30 years after the revolution.

That was completely repressed and quashed. Then over the last five years, they have been sporadically very strong, uh, demonstrations and protests all over the place. Um, but much more sort of, you know, spotty. So not the entire country hasn’t risen up the way it has this time. Um, but this time around it is very much it.

It includes, uh, people. Everywhere and artists have entered the fray in creating, um, music to accompany the, the protest movement, creating poster art, creating videos. Um, they have the diaspora, which is a very large diaspora in part because of the kinds of living conditions that the Islamic Republic has imposed on Iranians.

A lot of Iranian families are completely split. Um, many of them have immigrated abroad to Europe, to Asia, to America, to Australia. And so the diaspora, which is a fairly new diaspora that’s still very much connected to what’s happening in Iran, has also joined in. And you know, last week you had the biggest demonstration, um, ever of Iranians in the diaspora.

Something like 80,000 people marching in Berlin. And so this is the biggest challenge. State has faced since the 1979 revolution and, um, they have now, they are now attacking, I mean, the security forces are attacking anybody who, um, chance the slogan, uh, Zan Zandig Azadi, uh, woman life freedom in the streets.

They’re, they’re being quite, uh, you know, they’re being very violent in killing, um, indiscriminately in, in some protests, shooting, um, you know, very young people and already something like 350 people that we know of have been killed, and many of them very.

That’s horrible. That’s absolutely, I didn’t, I did not realize that many people had been killed already.

Um, are there supporters of the regime? Are there pe, is there like a counter protest of any kind?

Not at all. There are no counter protests, but we are saying, seeing groups of security, uh, you know, personnel as well as bas, which is this paramilitary force, um, you know, marching in the streets, um, in groups, beating protestors up, and then trying to sort of chant certain things back, which.

Uh, but they are no match for the millions of people who have poured out into the streets to call for the very removal of these, of the people who are enforcing or who are being the, you know, the, uh, what’s it called? The hand maidens of, of this, uh, regime. . ,

Yes. That’s a very good way of describing it. I love that.

Um, so is this a, um, is this a revolution against the regime? Is it an effort to reform the regime? Can a response be accepted that involves simp. Producing the role of the morality police? Or is this really an effort to overthrow? No, this is what is the longstanding government? Sorry.

Yeah, no, this is an effort, uh, uh, this is definitely an effort to overthrow because I, Iranians really have tried and, you know, you asked what is different this time, What’s different this time is that they really did try to reform things from within, right?

The 2009 green movement. Yes. Uh, was a, uh, and the reformist movement with hot tummy and I mean, 40 years. Iranians really did try to reform things from within, uh, which is why they were from, uh, you know, outside and inside. There were great calls against, uh, you know, the sanctions and all these measures that they thought really hindered any kind of reforms from within that quashed the, the space for civil society and discussion from within.

Um, but I think people have reached this point where they’ve realized no. How, um, you know, strong, their protests are, no matter how, uh, consistent their demands are, there is simply no response from the leadership that accepts any kind of, uh, culpability that is willing to take a step toward them. And so these protests very much just call for the downfall of the regime.

We hear this in the slogans. The slogans are no longer. Um, you know, about 10 years ago during the green movement, for example, people still sort of, uh, you know, relied on Islamic, uh, discourse. Um, so to co-op some of the language of the state itself to say, you know, we still want to reform things within this framework.

All of those slogans are gone. There’s no Islamic discourse whatsoever in the slogans. And, uh, some of the slogans, some of the Chans are very forthright and, um, I mean, sort of all walls, uh, all sort of pretense of, uh, you know, Persian etiquette or you know, is, is completely gone. They’re big cuss words against the leaders of the regime in the slogans.

I mean, they’re quite sort of astounding in, in their tone and in their, um, defiance and.

So, just to be clear, this is, this is going well beyond what we saw with the Green Revolution and with other reform efforts since 1979.

Yes. Yes. This is no longer the, you know, the protests have exited that paradigm.

They have exited that discourse. Um, this is just calling for the downfall of the regime and, um, you know, saying things like, We will continue until we get our country back. Your day, your final days have come. Aban, which is the month currently in the Persian calendar in Iran. Aban is the, you know, month of blood.

And this is the end of your system. I mean, this is no longer saying things such as, um, you know, God is greater and let’s try to still achieve something good together. Um, let’s, uh, you know, have more rights for journalists. Let’s have more rights for women. It’s, we, it’s well,

And you mentioned the response of the Iranian diaspora overseas.

Um, but what has been the response you think of the, uh, international community, particularly I’m interested in the response of the United States government. Uh, do you think it’s adequate? Does there need to be more support, uh, for these protestors?

It’s a good question. Rob Malley, the person in charge of Iran at the State Department, he got into real trouble saying that the Iranian protestors were demanding their go.

To give them more respect and to, um, you know, take a step toward them. He got into real trouble because people said, uh, what are you trying to now side with the Islamic Republic? Because we’re not asking anything of the Islamic Republic. We’re asking of it to be gone. Um, so, you know, he was sort of one step behind the protestors in Iran and um, and so he had to come forward.

Apologize for what he said. Um, Wow. The US government, you know, there have been different kinds of calls. Some people have called for, for, for foreign governments to shut down the embassies of the Islamic Republic and to expel their diplomats from their countries. Others have has for greater. , um, targeted sanctions against certain people and groups who are contributing to the, um, you know, murder and, uh, of pro uh, protestors on the streets.

I think at the end of the day, um, you know, people will argue for different things. Some go further, some uh, some don’t take it as far it’s. People are debating it. They’re wondering, you know, what can we do to really help from here? We all know that foreign intervention is not something that goes down well with Iranians.

Not least because, you know, their democratic government in 1953 was overthrown by US UK coup d’etat. And so the issue of foreign involvement is a little, is a touchy subject, but, um, there are debates about what else the, the world can do.

Well, one specific, uh, controversy I’ve seen a lot on, uh, is that the question of whether we should continue to engage in negotiations with the current regime over their nuclear project.

The Biden administration reopened negotiations that had begun with the Bo, with the Obama administration to try to, uh, negotiate a deal that would prevent in the short run the Iranian government from developing, uh, nuclear weapons in return. The United States would offer access to markets money that we have frozen from the government.

What is your thought on that? Should we continue with those negotiations? Should we cut those off? Uh, how should we approach that issue? ?

Yeah. Nobody believes that the US should be continuing those negotiations with Islamic Republic. Okay. Um, at this time, because this is no longer seen as being a legitimate government or representative of the people, I mean, it hasn’t been for a long time, but especially now, when.

Young people, people in general, but also very young people dying on the streets in order to bring about changes. Nobody thinks the US should be. I mean, you know, I’m sure there are pro regime people who very much think that those negotiations should continue. Um, but as far as those who are citing with the protestors, nobody’s, nobody thinks that those negotiations should be continued.

Right. And do you think in general we should, We certainly should not intervene because as you pointed out, uh, there’s a long history of American intervention in Iran that that has actually turned out often to produce undemocratic results. Mm-hmm. , Uh, and of course, any American intervention would also be used by the regime to justify cracking down on their, on the protestors.

But do you think we should be isolating the regime? Should we be, uh, trying to ostracize them and the way we have reacted to Russia? Behavior in Ukraine? Mm-hmm. , would you like to see something similar?

I think that’s already really happened with Iran. As far as the US is concerned. You know, the US has imposed the most extreme sanctions it has imposed on any country on Iran over the last, you know, since the Trump government in 2016.

And so Iran really is marginalized, the government is ostracized. The question is now, Do we, Some people are campaigning, for example, for the team to be kicked off of the, um, you know, football federation, the World Cups coming up in Qatar in November. Uh, a lot of people are against that because they believe that, you know, Iran’s soccer team actually really, um, You know, represents Iranians because the player, there’ve been players on the team who’ve expressed all their, with the protests.

And so they don’t think that the Iranian soccer team, which a lot of Iranians have a lot of pride in, should be penalized for, for the state. Um, and then there’s the question of, you know, expelling the, uh, shutting down the, uh, embassies of the Islamic Republic across the world. A lot of people are talking about.

There was a meeting in Guadalupe right before the revolution happened in 1979 where the heads of European and American, uh, governments met, and a lot, a lot of people sort of interpret that as the meeting where these heads decided that it was fine to let go of Mohamed Zaha and that the revolution in Iran.

As far as they’re concerned, uh, can succeed. Now I’m not sort of backing those interpretations because I think they require more study, whether these are partly conspiracy theories as to sort of the Western governments deciding the fate of Iran, and I’m sure there’s a grain of truth in them. Um, but in analysis abroad, what you hear is, well, Western governments haven’t really reached their Guadalupe moment yet.

They haven’t really, uh, come to the point where they’ve agreed among themselves, um, whether they’re willing to just completely, uh, let go of the idea of the Islamic Republic of Iran as a stable, uh, government, you know, in comparison to the rest of the governments in the Middle East, uh, to also, um, dissolve.

That’s super helpful in understanding the context and always providing a historical framework, uh, for, for this current moment. Uh, and that leads, I think, to the natural question that we as scholars are, are in, in many ways Ill prepared to answer, but yet in a sense we have to take a, an effort to answer right, which is, What do we expect to see next?

Where, where do you see this going? And again, of course you’re not a, a future teller, , . So, so anything you say now, we don’t expect you to, to, to have certainty about it. But, but as a, as a scholar, as someone who understands the culture in the history so deeply and clearly, also someone who feels a strong connection, h how do you see things moving forward?

Do you. To see regime change. Do you expect to see more reform? Uh, I I’m curious for your, your thoughts on this.

Yeah, I mean, there are kind of two ways, uh, that I go sometimes in the very same moment. If I listen to my heart and if I listen to what’s happening and, you know, talk to people back in Iran and.

See the nature of the chance and everything that I’m consuming every day, my heart tells me this is the end. This is this, this cannot, it can’t go back from this point on board, right? Iranian women, Iranian youth, Iranian people, um, they’ve gone on the streets and declared and expressed very clearly that they no longer want to live under an Islamic Republic.

It’s very clear, but then, You know, think about it a little, uh, see other videos and think about it a little more rationally. I can see that they’ve got the might, right? The Islamic Republic is a very strong security state, and they have no qualms about killing. People on the streets and, um, imprisoning many more.

You know, I can’t come out very clear on where this might head, but I do know that what has happened in Iran over the last seven weeks has fundamentally changed, um, people’s relationship to the state and indeed, There is no going back from this point. So what does that mean? Um, if the Islamic Republic stays in power, unfortunately, I think it will become an, uh, even harsher state and even more securitized space for Iranians to live in and even less hopeful place.

Um, and you know, if I go with my heart, hopefully, um, Iranians are able to overcome this system and build, uh, a future. Um, that, uh, and a government that represents, uh,

Well, we certainly hope that’s what happens. And, and I do want to underscore, as a non-expert, I’ve always been, uh, struck in my many travels and meetings with people of the incredible cultural richness and talent of Iranians.

And it does seem, it does seem there’s such a, a disconnection between the government and the people, uh, in this mm-hmm. in this sense, as you’ve articulated so well. Can our listeners do, Obviously our listeners and e even our, if our listeners happen to be hidden government, there are limits on what the government can do.

You’ve made that point very clear. And the experience of 1953 should warn Americans about trying to tell other governments and other societies what to do. Uh, but nonetheless, those of us watching who care, uh, what can we do?

I think what you’re doing, Jeremi, Um, I think we need to amplify the voices of Iranians, uh, on the, on the streets.

If you, uh, any day there are 40, 50, 60 videos of students protesting in their universities, of people protesting in the streets. We don’t see enough of it in the west. Um, and I think there, there hasn’t quite been there. We, we all know there are protests happening in Iran. I’m not sure that the recognition is there, that this is a really monumental movement, um, that has completely broken with the discourse of the Islamic Republic, with the ideology of the Islamic Republic and wants to move beyond.

Um, and I think we need greater international solidarity with I, Iranians and Iran and amplifying their voices. So you’re listeners simply by reposting. Um, certain posts they might see on, on Iran or posting videos they see, uh, partaking in the kind of dis discourses that are happening on Iran. This is, uh, you know, some listeners might be a little hesitant thinking that, um, and I’ve heard this before, they’re not exactly sure how to engage because we don’t wanna be engaging in, let’s say, Islamophobic dis discourses or, but I think just taking the, uh, you know, cue from the people on the streets in Iran, you will know that you.

Uh, you are doing the right thing and you are not engaging in something that is somehow against the will of the Iranian people. So, uh, just amplifying people’s voices.

Yes. And I think international solidarity matters so much. We know from other democracy movements around the world that often when you ask people who are involved in those movements, they, they often say it gives them confidence and hope when they see that the world cares that they’re not alone.

Right.

That’s right. That’s right. And you know, the Islam, I mean, it’s been, we’ve, we’ve just come off, uh, a few years of really dark times all across the world. If you look at what yes, you know, happened in the us, the middle. Fallen apart, you know, Lebanon’s governments completely d basically disappeared, uh, Ukraine and Russia has happened.

And, you know, this is one of the first hopeful movements, um, that I, uh, you know, that I’ve encountered in, in many years and really sort of shining the light into, um, I think a direction. Speak to not just Iranians and not just Middle Easterners, but people across the world, Right? Um, that, you know, women life freedom, that women need to have liberty in order for all of us to have liberty.

I love the idealism, and I think you, what you’ve said is, is so powerful and moving for me, I’m moved right now. Uh, we need optimism and idealism and we need hope. Mm-hmm. and, uh, these courageous, uh, initially women who, who really. Spearheaded this movement. Um, they give us reason to believe that the world is not cynical.

Mm-hmm. . And that there are opportunities to make change where Nahid should our listeners go if they want to not only learn more, but but see more that they can amplify. What are some good sources that you would recommend to them?

It’s a little difficult, but basically I think looking up hashtag Mahsa Amini on Twitter, you will see a lot of, uh, posts that will be useful doing this.

Can you spell that? Can you spell that? Uh, so that’s, uh, hashtag and then the name of the Kurdish woman who was, uh, who’s, um, you know, killing ignited these protests, M A H S A. Okay. A M I N I, Mahsa Amini. Uh, so hashtag Mahsa Amini. Most Iranians and others who are posting on this are, you know, hashing their posts.

I think it’s become the most, the most tweeted hashtag, if I’m not mistaken, in the history of Twitter. Wow. Something like 340 million tweets by that hashtag. Apparently more even. You know, um, that’s something I read a couple days ago. I hope I’m not wrong on that. Um, and then, you know, on, uh, there’s certain websites that are very good at following the story too.

Um, I would say Iran Wire is one. Uh, Jadaliyya is a, is another good one. And then really just, uh, you know, looking of New Lines magazine is good. Um, there’s certain outlets that are paying Close Middle East Monitor, um, They’re, Yeah. Middle East Today, there’s certain sites that are paying attention to the story and these are just, I’m, I’m trying to really, um, you know, mention English language websites.

Of course, there are many others in Persian. Yeah,

that’s super helpful. Um, Zachary, what we’re hearing here does na, he’s description, First of all, does it inspire hope in you? And do you think this is a topic that young people in the United States, in western Europe and elsewhere that, that they can become interested in and, and a topic where we can see some international solidarity?

What do you think?

I, I think so. I think it’s hard to, uh, listen to what you’ve been, we’ve been talking about and, and not be hopeful, um, and, and not, uh, not. Wish the best for this movement. Um, and I think it’s a reminder, um, a reminder that we need, uh, far more often these days that, uh, everything seems impossible until it happens.

And I think, uh, uh, at this moment, we all need to be reminded that what we decide to do, I think my poem touched on, uh, plays a much larger role than we often imagine.

Yes. I think. Yes. Yes, I think that’s right. Uh, Nahid, thank you so much for joining us. This is Nahid Siamdoust, my colleague and fellow professor here at the University of Texas in Austin.

And, and more important than being a professor Nahid is, obviously, uh, an idealist in someone with great insight in what might turn out to be one of the most important, uh, democratic movements. Uh, Decade and perhaps in the coming decades as well. Uh, Nahid, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us,

Jeremi and Zach, thank you so much for having me.

And Zachary, thank you for your poem as always. Oh, yes. And thank you, most of all to our loyal listeners for joining us for, uh, this episode of This is Democracy.

This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts ITS Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is Democracy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

See you next time.