This is Democracy – Episode 205: Attorneys General

[00:00:00] Intro: This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the united States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:24] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy. We are going to discuss today, the role of state attorneys, general, uh, those individuals elected in every state in the union, uh, to play the role as the highest law enforcement officer in each respective state. These are races that often do not get nearly as much attention as governor races or Senate races.

[00:00:50] Jeremi: Uh, but as we’ve learned in recent months and years, Uh, attorneys general, uh, not just at the federal level, but at the state level play an absolutely crucial role around elections, around enforcement of the law, uh, around environmental issues and, and a whole range of things that are essential to our democracy issues.

[00:01:08] Jeremi: We discuss every week issues. We know our listeners always want to hear more about, uh, so this week we’re going to talk to, uh, someone who is running to be the, uh, state attorney general in. This is Chris Mays. Chris is the democratic candidate for attorney general in Arizona. As I said, she has served on the Arizona corporation commission from 2003 to 2010. O’Connors college of law at Arizona state university. Uh, Chris, thank you for joining us.

[00:01:37] Kris: Thanks jeremy. It’s great to be.

[00:01:40] Jeremi: Before we get into our discussion with Chris, we have, of course our poem from Mr. Zachary, Siri, Zachary. What’s the title of your poem?

[00:01:47] Zachary: Prayer at the sick bed of truth.

[00:01:51] Jeremi: Wow. I’m a little concerned to hear this, but let let’s go

[00:01:56] Zachary: before a dozen empty seats. Talk and talk. They find us snapping and build a city of lies it chips away into powder, like talk like talk. It’s not like it matters who lives and who dies in the windows as our forests burn. Great. U on the street in the schools, it bakes boils and fries.

[00:02:18] Zachary: The earth will, yes. Continue to turn. Don’t learn. There isn’t anything, but what your money buy? Please ask me again if this is real, it’s real. Ask me again. If you should just do what you please ask me again. I beg is this real it’s real or the sky can’t be blue. The dog has no fleas before a dozen empty seats.

[00:02:42] Zachary: Talk and talk. Look, do you see it? Tell me, do you hear the cries? We are hurt. We are hurting. They squawk. They Squaw. Yes, there is still truth. Do you hear how it.

[00:02:54] Jeremi: Hmm, I love it. Zachary, what is your poem about?

[00:02:57] Zachary: My poem is about, uh, the fact that our, our society really no longer has as prominent a, a two-sided political discourse.

[00:03:06] Zachary: Instead, we have one side that is trying to simply do the minimum to, uh, to continue the rule of law and, uh, truth in our society. And another side that is trying, uh, that, that has built a sort of political. Campaign a political platform, uh, in, in fantasy and, uh, and, and the way in which, uh, we simply need to call that out and, and not stand for it.

[00:03:29] Jeremi: Hmm. Uh, Chris, do you agree?

[00:03:33] Kris: Well, there certainly, uh, thank you, Zachary. There certainly is a, a lot of, uh, of that, uh, in Arizona right now, unfortunately in the Republican party. And, uh, we have an. Three, uh, candidates for statewide office here, the top statewide offices who are, uh, engaged in a lot of that kind of behavior.

[00:03:52] Kris: So yeah, that there are echoes of your poem, unfortunately, in our political system right now.

[00:03:59] Jeremi: And, and why Chris is the role of attorney general that you’re clearly devoting your career to. And there are many other things you could do. You’re devoting yourself to this. Why is that position so important for protecting truth and law?

[00:04:14] Kris: Well, I mean, the, the attorney General’s office in almost any state is the top law enforcement officer in the state and the, the top legal officer in the state, you are responsible. The ag is responsible for, uh, representing state agencies representing. State before the United States Supreme court, uh, for upholding the rule of law for upholding and enforcing the constitution, um, and enforcing laws and, um, also for, uh, you know, making sure we have, uh, free and fair elections enforcing election law.

[00:04:54] Kris: And unfortunately, uh, in, in our state we have a Republican party or. The leadership of the Republican party that it would appear no longer actually believes in the rule of law no longer believes in democracy and is willing to go to great lengths to undermine democracy. And I think you see that in, uh, uh, the, a lot of the actions, uh, around the fraud that happened AF out here.

[00:05:24] Kris: The efforts, uh, to, um, send fake electors to Congress, uh, in the 2020 elections and the, um, and ultimately in the candidates that have just been nominated by the party for governor, for attorney general and for secretary of state.

[00:05:43] Jeremi: Why is it Chris that people can run for attorney general, um, and not believe in the rule of law, it would seem that that’s a requirement for that, that position, right?

[00:05:54] Kris: Yeah. I mean, it is a, it is a bare minimum at bottom. You’ve got to believe in the rule of law. You’ve got to believe in, um, upholding. Uh, uh, law and, um, protecting the constitution, uh, enforcing the constitution. And so, yeah, I, it’s hard to believe. I mean, really it’s surreal in a lot of ways, uh, that we have gotten to this point in Arizona and, and in other states, um, but that’s, but that’s where we’re at.

[00:06:25] Kris: It’s a very dangerous place to be. And I, I do not think it’s hyper. To say that in many ways, American democracy runs through the state of Arizona in 2022. Um, because if we elect an attorney general or a secretary of state or a governor who refuses for instance, to certify the 20, 24 election, then we will.

[00:06:53] Kris: Essentially have lost our democracy. Um, and attorney general races are in particular, in particularly important in this regard because not only are they usually a part of the certification process for. Presidential elections for, for elections. They, they also are responsible for making sure that, um, you know, our election laws are followed.

[00:07:20] Kris: And if we have an ag in any of these states who refuses to do that, it’s a, it, it puts our country. A democracy are Republican grave peril.

[00:07:32] Zachary: Taking a, a quick step back. I think many of our listeners are aware of the importance of attorneys, of attorneys general and maybe vaguely aware of the role that they play in their states.

[00:07:42] Zachary: But could you maybe for, for, for others, describe, um, uh, what the specific responsibilities and powers of an attorney general are maybe with Arizona as an example?

[00:07:52] Kris: Yeah. I mean, the, the powers are very broad actually in, in, in most states. And so, like I said, the attorney general usually represe. State agencies is the lawyer on behalf of state agencies.

[00:08:05] Kris: So that’s sort of, sort of the basic duty of the, of the ag, but attorney generals often in, in my case, would be responsible for prosecuting white collar, uh, crime for going after, uh, you know, uh, drug smuggling and, and, uh, Drug smuggling offenses. Uh, for instance, we have a fentanyl crisis in our state there’s, um, public corruption.

[00:08:32] Kris: So I would be responsible for prosecuting public corruption, wherever it is, uh, whether it’s in government or, uh, or elsewhere. Um, that one of the huge responsibilities of most AGS office is to prosecute consumer fraud. And, um, you know, for instance, last year alone in Arizona, 15,000 complaints of consumer fraud.

[00:08:57] Kris: Those were just the complaints that were filed with the AGS office, you know, and we’re seeing so many more, uh, efforts to scam our senior citizens and to scam consumers. And we have to have AGS who really are. Focused on, on prosecuting that consumer fraud, the attorney general, uh, in most states also is responsible for, uh, for instance, entering into class action lawsuits on behalf of the states and for settling those kinds of cases.

[00:09:27] Kris: So the, the opioid, um, settlement was done by AGS across the country. The Volkswagen case was done by attorney generals across the country. Um, and, uh, and then of course there’s other issues like in our state water, you know, one of the things we’re dealing with today is, uh, a water crisis in Arizona and the ag needs to be involved in the settlement, uh, negotiations around the Colorado river.

[00:09:54] Kris: I just finished a press conference where I said, you know, we are going to go after instances where, uh, you know, we had just had a situation out here where, where our state land department allowed, uh, a Saudi, uh, uh, Arabian company, a Saudi company. To, um, use Arizona water for free, um, to grow alfalfa, to send back to feed cows in, in Saudi Arabia, these kinds of things, um, you know, really need to be investigated by an active and vigilant attorney general.

[00:10:30] Jeremi: Why is it, um, that in the past few years it seems Chris people have perceived, and perhaps it has been the case that these offices have become more politicized. Attorneys general have always run as Democrats or Republicans or in the 19th century as wigs and, and various other party affiliations. Um, but for much of our history and particularly from let’s say world war II forward, There was the presumption that even though there was some partisan affiliation that an attorney general was a professional and that the, the basic job would be done the same way, whether it was a Republican or a Democrat.

[00:11:11] Jeremi: Why do you perceive that has changed in places like Arizona?

[00:11:15] Kris: Well, that is a great question. And I, I think there is some truth to it. Um, I don’t actually think that, I think that most of the politicization is coming out of one political party and that’s the Republican party. Um, the, uh, the attorney general, for instance, in Arizona.

[00:11:34] Kris: And one of the things that I’m most critical of him for mark BEOV is how deeply he has politicized the AGS office. You know, he has. Turned it into his own sort of launching pad for his ultimately unsuccessful bid to unseat Mark Kelly here for the United States Senate. He, for instance, Took millions of dollars out of that consumer fraud fund.

[00:11:58] Kris: I was just talking about and put it in something he called his federalism unit, which was basically designed to go after highly politically charged lawsuits that I really looked more designed to get, get him on Fox news than anything else. And they were lawsuits that were mostly doomed to fail. Um, but that were clearly sort.

[00:12:22] Kris: Coming out of one political ideology and, and, and that’s really unfortunate because you’re right, Jeremy, these, this office should be as nonpartisan and apolitical as any statewide elected office. Is, um, except for perhaps the last one that I, that I held the Arizona corporation commission, which is Arizona’s public utilities commission.

[00:12:49] Kris: So, you know, you have in the AGS office, what is supposed to be the top law enforcement officer that is not a political job in, in the case of a public utilities commission. You regulate utilities, you set energy policy. That really shouldn’t be a political job, but you know, in just too many cases, I think, uh, you see.

[00:13:11] Kris: In many. And again, I hate to say this in many cases, it’s Republicans who are seeing these jobs as good sort of stepping stones to be, to getting, making it to the governor’s office or making it to the United States Senate. That’s really too bad. What I have told Arizonans is that I am going to leave politics at the doorstep.

[00:13:32] Kris: Um, and my job is gonna be to be the lawyer for the people of Arizona. My opponent, for instance, talks like he wants to be Donald Trump’s lawyer. I wanna be the people’s lawyer period, full. so

[00:13:47] Jeremi: I, I think that’s, that’s traditionally how people had talked about the office. So I think you’re, you’re resonating with the, the real course of our history until recently mm-hmm um, and resonating with what democracy needs.

[00:14:00] Jeremi: Democracy needs, the rule of law. How would that look in practice? Let’s say, uh, with one of the most controversial issues that I think every state attorney general faces, um, the question of, um, abortion, right? I mean, how, how will you try to depoliticize that, that issue

[00:14:21] Kris: yeah. And you’re right. It is, it is an extremely difficult issue and that’s one of the.

[00:14:26] Kris: One of the, I mean, there’s so many things that are, that are unfortunate about what the United States Supreme court did with the Dobbs decision, but it’s certainly instantaneously, uh, through this very highly charged issue back to, to AGS and to the states. Um, and, and has. Created a, a nightmare scenario really, where you’re going to see ongoing litigation, both within states and probably between states.

[00:14:56] Kris: Um, as you ha, as you see really egregious and terrible situations in like, uh, you know, in which, you know, Uh, states that have banned abortion attempt to extradite women from another state back to their state. You know, one of the things I’ve promised to do as attorney general, we’re not gonna extradite any woman, uh, for an abortion prosecution.

[00:15:20] Kris: To another state, or we won’t allow any woman to be extra extradited out of Arizona. These are the kinds of crazy situations that we are facing now that, uh, the Supreme court has, uh, has issued the Dobbs decision and, uh, overruled and overturned row. How would I handle it? Look, um, my job as attorney general will be to uphold the Arizona cons.

[00:15:49] Kris: And like a number of states or several states. Anyway, Arizona has a very, very robust right to privacy in our constitution. And the Arizona constitution is the highest law of the land. That right to privacy article two, section eight, which guarantees that no person shall be interfered with in their homes or in their private affairs, I believe makes these trigger.

[00:16:17] Kris: That are on the books in Arizona and that date all the way back to the civil war, era unconstitutional. Um, and, uh, unfortunately the current attorney general mark BEOV and my opponent for attorney general wants, they want to. Reimplement, uh, restore, uh, that 1901 law that bans all abortion and would put doctors, nurses, and pharmacists in prison, potentially for up to five years for assisting with an abortion.

[00:16:50] Kris: And I gotta tell you guys, this is, um, Wildly unpopular with Arizonans. Uh, the vast majority of Arizonans, something like 87% of Arizonans, believe that abortions should remain legal and safe in all or most instances. And I would venture to say the number is even higher when it comes to the number of Arizonans who believe that this should remain a private.

[00:17:16] Kris: Issue and that the Arizona constitutional provision, um, protecting the privacy of Arizonans should be the law of the land in our state. So I will enforce the Arizona constitution. And when I’m attorney general, we will never prosecute a woman, a doctor, a pharmacist, a nurse, a, a midwife, or a doula, um, for, um, abortion or abortion, uh, ,

[00:17:44] Zachary: but how do you handle an issue like that?

[00:17:46] Zachary: Um, where the law is so clearly on, on one side or, or the truth is so clearly on one side and, and, and there, there, there, there remains, uh, in an intense opposition, how do you remain a political while enforcing the law? When it seems like the rule of law is itself political.

[00:18:05] Kris: I mean, it’s a, it’s a great question.

[00:18:07] Kris: And I think you can do it by doing what, what I am doing. When I talk about this issue, which is to talk about the law, to talk about the constitution and to stay within the confines of that constitution. I try to stay out of the, the political, uh, elements of, of abortion. Obviously it’s hard to do. It’s a, it’s a highly charged issue.

[00:18:33] Kris: And people of good faith believe different things about this. And I fully recognize that, but I also think the vast majority of Arizonans believe in our constitution and that it, it should be upheld. And I think they’ll support me if they know. And when they know that I have, uh, a solid, legal and constitutional grounding for.

[00:18:57] Kris: The decision that I have made about whether or not in my case, not to prosecute women, doctors and nurses for abortion. Um, and so I think what you do is you just have to continue to talk about it. In term in legal, in terms that that are grounded in, in the constitution and the legal reasoning behind why I’m not going to prosecute, uh, people for, for abortion in Arizona.

[00:19:25] Kris: Ultimately there will have to be a political solution to this question. I mean, the AR the people of Arizona will need to put this issue to rest. And I think they’re going to, I think that in a couple of years, we will have a ballot initiative in 2024. That will say, that will say Arizonans believe in, in the right to choose that Arizonans believe, uh, in privacy and that abortion should be legal.

[00:19:54] Kris: That will be on the ballot. I believe it will pass overwhelmingly based on the polls already in Arizona. And so we will, we will, we will, the constitution will have even more clarity than I think it already does.

[00:20:09] Jeremi: And I really like your point, Chris, about, uh, the way we talk about issues. This is a recurring theme for us each week, and it goes back to the history of our Republic from its very founding.

[00:20:20] Jeremi: Uh, democracy is not simply about power. It’s about justice and about the ways in which we frame our discussions, which is why our founders spent so much time arguing and writing about, about these issues. A hundred percent of the people are never gonna agree on anything, but we have to make valid arguments that are not simply about my side being, uh, right, and your side wrong, but more about a process of justice.

[00:20:45] Jeremi: And I, and I think you did that really very eloquently right now. It’s about the constitution. It’s not really . About what you think.

[00:20:50] Kris: Yeah, it’s about the constitution. It’s about the process of justice. It’s about, about the fact that, you know, we recognize that there will be likely a ballot initiative in the future where all Arizonans will be able to, again, weigh on, be able to weigh in on this issue.

[00:21:06] Kris: and I think I also, you know, I also like to talk about our constitution because the Arizona constitution is, is, I mean, it’s a marvelous document. It was fashioned between 1910 and 1912. When we became a state, it’s actually a quite pro progressive constitution. It was crafted during the. Sort of trust busting era of the United States, uh, sort of Teddy Roosevelt times, we had very progressive Republicans and conservative Democrats who gathered at our constitutional convention and they crafted this, this very robust right to privacy because they were concerned.

[00:21:45] Kris: They also crafted a corporation commission that was elected statewide. They were worried in that case about the power of monopoly utilities, the power of big railroads over individuals in the right, in the case of the right to the privacy, they were worried about, uh, an over weaning government’s power to intrude on the privacy of Arizonans in their homes, in their private affairs.

[00:22:10] Kris: And so I think when you really, that is our cons. And that is the Supreme law of Arizona. And I believe it’s my duty to uphold that constitution until it is altered and or changed. It may be changed. I think it will be to actually reinforce the right to choose in Arizona.

[00:22:32] Jeremi: And as you said so well, that’s the core mission of any state attorney general, which is to defend the state’s constitution.

[00:22:38] Jeremi: If I could ask one more question. Um, And I asked this in light of the current politics that we’re in. Um, what is it like to be a, a woman running for this kind of office, an office that’s traditionally been held by men where there is such a sort of forceful argument, almost, um, violent argument often made on the other side, you’re taking this away from us.

[00:23:03] Jeremi: You’re you’re not doing what we want you to do. If you could just reflect on that. I know many of our. Listeners struggle with these issues. Many, many female politicians, my wife deals with this. So I’m curious your, your perspective as, as a, as a woman running for this office.

[00:23:19] Kris: Yeah, it’s interesting. And I, I obviously was a woman also running for, for the Arizona corporation commission, which was also a traditionally a male, um, dominated, um, uh, office.

[00:23:33] Kris: I think I was only. Maybe fourth, a woman ever elected to that office in a hundred years in Arizona, I would only be the second woman ever elected attorney general behind Janet Napolitano. She was ag before she was the governor of Arizona. And I would be the first mom ever elected in Arizona history.

[00:23:55] Jeremi: Wow.

[00:23:55] Kris: Yeah. But long, long past time, probably for that to happen. But, um, you know, it’s interesting and you’re right. There’s um, There’s a lot of aggressive, uh, you know, language used, uh, in, in, in, in even some violent language used on the other side. Um, but I’ll tell you, I’m, I’m pretty tough too. Um, I’m, I’m a pretty aggressive, uh, I’m pretty aggressive in defense of my, my views and in defense of what I think is, is right for Arizona.

[00:24:28] Kris: But, uh, you know, I think here’s the deal. I mean, um, I, I believe that Arizonans are ready for common and really crave, common sense, um, solutions oriented, uh, elected officials and politicians. They’re kind of sick of, uh, the nonsense rhetoric that we’re, we’ve been getting, especially from Republican politicians who wanna keep talking about the 20, 20 election.

[00:25:00] Kris: And, you know, my opponent wants to de-certify the 2020 election, which is not only illegal, there’s really no mechanism to even do it. So it, you know, it’s utter, utter absurdities and they. People who come to the table, whether they’re a woman or a man who, um, they, they, they just want people to come to the table with solutions to the really hard issues that we have in our state.

[00:25:27] Kris: We have a water crisis. We have a fentanyl crisis in Arizona. We have. um, you know, an explosion in the levels of elder abuse in Arizona, we have a consumer fraud crisis in Arizona that has to be tackled. We are one of the FA if not the fastest growing state in America, one of the fastest growing states in America, which, uh, Presents issues, but also great opportunities.

[00:25:56] Kris: And, you know, we have an extraordinary opportunity to, to, to shine, to be a great state, but we’ve gotta do better in so many of the, so many of these areas and metrics, including education funding, uh, Um, and, and, and I wanna be a part of that solution. So, you know, I think that whether you’re a man or a woman, uh, going to the polls, how old, however old you are, however young you are.

[00:26:23] Kris: I think they’re going to be looking for people who are talking about issues or talking about the future. And we’re not talking about the 20, 20 election.

[00:26:32] Jeremi: Makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. And, and it’s good moms common sense also, right?

[00:26:38] Kris: exactly.

[00:26:40] Jeremi: So we always like to close on a positive note on how a historical and political analysis can move us forward.

[00:26:47] Jeremi: It just as you said, uh, because there’s certainly enough pessimism and cynicism out there all around us. So how can our listeners who wanna make a difference? Um, how can they get involved? What do you think would be most helpful for them to do.

[00:27:01] Kris: Boy. I, you know, I, here’s what I, here’s my pitch, uh, wherever you are listening in, in the United States of America, uh, or . Wherever you are, but especially in the us take a look at your . Attorney General’s races.

[00:27:15] Kris: Um, these races are going to be critical in 2022 for the future of our country. Um, and, um, make sure that whoever you’re voting for believes in American democracy. Believes in the, in the rule of law, um, and is, is not focused on, uh, who won the 20, 20 election. Um, and I think, uh, you know, if you do that, if you focus, we’ve got incredible AGS running across the country who are going to be pivotal to defending our country’s democracy in 2024.

[00:27:50] Kris: People like Dana Nestle in Michigan, Josh, Colin, Wisconsin, of course, me and Arizona, Jen, Jordan and Georgia, Daniel Feld in Florida, uh, Garza and in, uh, Roelle Gar and Texas and Aron Ford. And. Nevada among others. These ag races are really critical, um, to the, to, to . Whether or not we can preserve a healthy . Democracy in America.

[00:28:14] Kris: And we absolutely can, and we absolutely must. This country has given us so so much. And whether you are. Uh, you know, the leader of a nonprofit, the leader of a corporation, a, a mom, a dad, a teacher, um, these, um, these races are, are critical to our, to our future and to the future of our kids.

[00:28:38] Jeremi: Zachary are young people paying attention?

[00:28:41] Zachary: I think they are. Um, I certainly am as someone who’s gonna get to vote for the first time in, in 2022. Yay. And I, I think that, uh, really, I think that young people want common . Sense and, and . They want it fast. Um, and, and I think that that hopefully with a new generation of voters, like myself and a new generation of citizens, um, we will have a push towards a more . Common. Problem solving. Dedicated, uh, public

[00:29:09] Zachary: service oriented government.

[00:29:10] Jeremi: Do young people understand though what Chris has explained? So well, how, how valuable and important attorneys . General are?

[00:29:16] Zachary: I think so I do think that that, that the digital age has in some ways made at least, uh, campaigning, more superficial.

[00:29:25] Zachary: Um, not that it ever wasn’t, but I, I do think that, uh, that. That young people, um, have the ability to be much more informed than in the past, they have access to . This kind of information. Uh, and, and the, the important thing to do is to try and try and give them ACC, not, not just give them access to this, but, uh, encourage them.

[00:29:46] Zachary: To learn about these issues and, and to get involved and show them that they have a place in this discussion,

[00:29:50] Jeremi: right. To seek the truth. As you said in your poem. Well, uh, Chris Mays, you have, uh, educated us, uh, as I’m sure you’ve been doing in the classroom for years. And as you’ve done as a, as a really distinguished public servant, uh, on the corporation commission and in, uh, Arizona.

[00:30:06] Jeremi: And, uh, I hope all of our listeners will go to your . Website. It is Chris Mays, K R I S M a Y E S. Com we will put it up with this podcast, Chris, thank you so much. And good luck with your race.

[00:30:19] Kris: Thanks, Jeremy. Great to be with you guys.

[00:30:22] Jeremi: Wonderful. Having you on and Zachary, thank you for your poem as always. And thank you most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this episode of this is democracy.

[00:30:35] Outro: This podcast is produced by the liberal arts its development studio. And the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week you can find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.