This is Democracy – Episode 200 Special

This is Democracy – Episode 200

[00:00:00] This is democracy, a podcast

[00:00:08] about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship,

[00:00:13] about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy.

[00:00:28] Jeremi: This is a very, very special episode. I think it’s as special as anyone we’ve done, perhaps since the first one. This is our 200th episode. Isn’t that amazing? Exactly. It

[00:00:40] Zachary: definitely is. It’s been a long time.

[00:00:42] Jeremi: It’s

[00:00:43] been, uh, less than four years, almost four years since we started in July, I think it was of 2018.

[00:00:50] Zachary: That’s correct.

[00:00:51] Jeremi: And here we are in June of 2022, so not quite four years and we’ve done 200 episodes. So we’ve average more than 50 episodes a year, almost one a week. Um, and my gosh, the world has changed so much when we started this episode. Uh, oh, wish I say when we started this podcast, um, you know, we were in the midst of the Trump presidency and here we are, we’re reaching the midterm of the Joe Biden presidency.

[00:01:18] Uh, when we started this podcast, um, the idea of war in Ukraine, Uh, unlikely and all of a sudden farfetched that’s right. We, we had no worries about sitting next to people and coughing on people and riding on airplanes without masks. Uh, so much, so much has changed. It’s uh, it’s extraordinary. Uh, What stands out for you as equity before we get to your poem?

[00:01:43] What stands out for you?

[00:01:44] Zachary: I think what stands out for me is just the incredible guests that we’ve talked to. I mean, we’ve had, uh, such an opportunity to, to cover the history and the policy that the deep thinking behind many of the current events of our day stretching all the way back to summer of 2018.

[00:02:05] Uh, and we’ve, we’ve gotten to do it with. Very special people. Um, and, and I think that’s been, for me, at least, uh, the most rewarding part has been to meet all of these interesting scholars, but also to interact with that content, to interact with this material, as the events being described are unfolding around us.

[00:02:27] Um, and also in these past four years or so, getting to see how each of those events, each of those analyses builds on each other. Right. We’ve actually found ourselves coming back to the same topics, but it seems completely different in 2022 than it did in 2018.

[00:02:44] Jeremi: That’s right. The same topic from 2018 and 2022 doesn’t seem repetitive at all because the issues have changed.

[00:02:50] The context has changed. Uh, we’ve done multiple episodes for example, on race and multiple episodes on, uh, issues of gender equality, multiple episodes on war and peace and, and, uh, the topics change. And as you say, build on one another from one time to another, I’ve particularly enjoyed Zachary. Um, also, uh, connecting your poems with the topics, because I think you were poems bring, uh, first of all, a young person’s voice to the.

[00:03:18] Uh, we often have older guests and you were, uh, you’re bringing a young person’s voice. You’re bringing a new perspective. And I think your poems often, um, encourage and inspire our guests and maybe our listeners to think about the topics in new ways. And so the connection between your poem and then the expert who we have on each week, I think that’s really exciting to watch that, that mixture and that change occurred before our eyes.

[00:03:42] Uh, on that note, I think you have a poem for our 200 episode. Yes. Uh, D this, was this a special poem for you to write to?

[00:03:49] Zachary: Uh, it wasn’t some ways because it’s been about, uh, not just our time here on this is democracy, but also, uh, my relationship with you and, and our, our sort of wonderful experience of growth and, and, and fun that we’ve had these past four years.

[00:04:05] But I think it’s also how I’m trying to understand what the world is today and how for years. We set out with this podcast to change the world. Uh, the world’s, the world’s still seems to not quite have listened to what we, to what we’ve said. And I think, I think maybe the world would, would do well to, to listen to more of what we say.

[00:04:27] Uh, but I say, I also think this poem is about me trying to come to terms with the fact that

[00:04:32] maybe they never will.

[00:04:33] Jeremi: Well, I think, um, the world has changed, but, uh, the curse of a time of change times of change is that, uh, that things don’t change as you wish in all cases. Um, before you read your poems, Zachary one or a few words on.

[00:04:46] How you write your poems, people often ask how, how do you work?

[00:04:49] Zachary: Well, it’s definitely

[00:04:50] been a process. Um, I like to say that this is my least favorite and favorite way to read a poem because it is very painful to have to write to a specific topic, uh, every week to have to conform my words to a topic that often seems.

[00:05:07] Uh, either taken too closely out of the headlines to be something that can be made literary or something that is, that is so personal, that it’s difficult to put on, on paper, if that makes any sense. Um, but it’s also a wonderful writing exercise and it forces me every week to sit down and write, even when I am extremely busy or, or thinking of something completely different.

[00:05:30] And it forces me to not just think about what I’m writing about, but how.

[00:05:35] Jeremi: Right.

[00:05:35] Zachary: Um, and I’ve definitely experimented with, uh, a wonderful array of, of different forms and, and, and different styles. And, and hopefully, I, I, I I’ve shown some consistency, some consistency throughout, but it’s also given me the chance to try so many different things at the same time.

[00:05:53] Jeremi: Well, and I enjoy our conversations though. Sometimes we have disagreements about this, but in general, I enjoy our conversations. Even when we have our disagreements. It’s interesting to talk through. The purpose of the podcast as we’re planning it and a poetic perspective on that. Um, all right, well, let’s hear your poem.

[00:06:10] What’s the title

[00:06:11] Zachary: I’d

[00:06:11] like to think you’ve seen the world with me.

[00:06:14] Well, I’d like to think that too. Let’s hear it.

[00:06:17] I’d like to think you’ve seen the world with me in little snippets from across the globe. We’ve seen what weighs us down. Oh. To be free. We talk still when the world’s a burning tree burning.

[00:06:31] So lovely on the ocean robe. I’d like to think you’ve seen the world with me. Dream which calls the immigrant from the key dream, which nibbles ever at our ear lobe we’ve seen what weighs us down. Oh. To be free. It lives. It’s memory, a desperate plea. It lives flashing at us like a bright strobe. I’d like to think you’ve seen the world with me.

[00:06:58] We live one carrot at a time. One P we gather our sorrows, scrub them with soap. We’ve seen what weighs us down. Oh. To be free. Whisper hopeful things in times without peace, keep moving, keep going, pulling the rope. I’d like to think you’ve seen the world with me. We’ve seen what weighs us down. Oh. To be free.

[00:07:26] Jeremi: Oh, to be free. Oh, to be free of so many of the troubles of our world. What’s your poem about

[00:07:33] Zachary: my poem

[00:07:34] is really about, uh, I, as I said earlier, I think it’s, it’s me trying to come to terms with the fact that our world is not as it should be. And sometimes we have to buckle down and live one carrot at a time when P and I think that at the same time, we have to recognize that that dream, that dream of, of, of a democratic society is still alive.

[00:07:58] Um, and it’s, it’s still somewhere out there, uh, in the mist, uh, for us to try and obtain. And I think that at the end of the day, uh, we have to recognize that maybe we’re never going to. Uh, but then it’s still like a goal worth reaching for, and at the very least it’s it’s as cliche as it sounds. It’s, it’s the journey that

[00:08:18] counts.

[00:08:19] Jeremi: Right. And as with any, um, high minded and worthwhile aspiration, it’s the striving, it matters not necessarily just the outcome. Right,

[00:08:28] right. Is at least in our history. What has redeemed us is that there is a as, as complex, as conflicted as our society is, there is always this striving for something better.

[00:08:41] And it’s not always universal and it’s not always in every part of our society. Uh, but I think we are still striving for that, uh, at any point. So,

[00:08:50] so what have we learned, do you think over 200 episodes now, uh, from. Uh, our different guests and poems and discussions, uh, and the reactions that we get from people by email and, and other forms, uh, what have we learned about our country and our demand?

[00:09:06] Zachary: That’s a good question. I mean, I think personally, I I’ve learned how broken our country is. Right. I mean, there have been so many episodes where you come back almost in tears at the kind of horrors or, or violence or, or mistakes that we hear described. But at the same time, I think we’ve also begun to recognize, um, that the.

[00:09:28] And our country, uh, are more powerful than the institutions around them. Right? I think this is a conclusion that you and I both came to when we were discussing yesterday, what we wanted to talk about in this episode. And that is that perhaps, uh, well, we need to listen more to in this country is not the talking heads.

[00:09:46] Uh, or the people who represent institutions, but the ordinary people. And I think what we’ve learned throughout this podcast is that the power of listening to others, of hearing expertise, but also of, of, of, of coming to terms with our own experiences. Has real value in a democracy. And that is the basis of our democracy.

[00:10:07] And I think the current events of the past four years have shown us that even when institutions fail, even when leaders fail, uh, the part of our democracy that isn’t. Is that part, which is the individual listening to another right. As

[00:10:22] cliche as it sounds.

[00:10:22] Oh, I, I don’t think that’s cliche at all. I think it’s a very important point.

[00:10:25] Jeremi: And I do think, um, you started in a, in a way that I fully agree with. I think we’ve learned about many of them. Seen and unseen problems in our democracy, whether we’re talking about, um, unfairness towards certain groups, uh, problems with the criminal justice system, uh, voting, uh, representation, uh, the way so many of the decisions about the allocations of resources and power in our society are made don’t match, not just with our democratic ideals, but even with, uh, the claims, the basic claims we make about our society, uh, all of that stuff.

[00:11:00] And we’ve explored that deeply. Uh, I’ve also been struck and I think you hinted at this, uh, by the enormous energy and creativity of so many people we’ve brought on and there is a kind of, uh, talk villi and element to this. Alexis de Tocqueville, who came to the United States in the 1830s was, was struck by all the problems, uh, American democracy had, but also all the creative things, different groups of people were doing.

[00:11:26] He called them associations. Uh, the ways in which different kinds of groups of people were coming together to address issues, to represent one another to demand change. And often to make change, even when their elected leaders wouldn’t do it. And he drew a very strong contrast between that form of social and political behavior, the mores as he called them of the United States and those of his own country, France, where associations, uh, free groups, uh, Organizations of individuals at the local level, addressing issues and creative ways.

[00:12:00] Those were largely non-existent and largely illegal, whereas they proliferate it in the U S and I think they proliferate now as much as ever we’ve seen so many of these groups. Now, some of these groups are also doing bad things, right? The proud boys and these other horrible fascist white supremacist groups, which we’ve talked about with some of our guests, they take advantage.

[00:12:20] Of the freedom of association and they take advantage as we’ve talked about on the podcast of technology to mobilize people. But what I think we’ve seen also is there is at least as much, if not more energy, uh, among creative people trying to do good things, trying to address transgender rights, trying to address economic fairness, trying to address religious freedom.

[00:12:40] Safety from excessive gun violence in our society. Uh, there are so many groups doing these things and, uh, it’s almost as if we have a proliferation of the good and the bad in our society today. And I think our podcast to some extent is captured that, which of course is one of the foundations of democratic thinking in the U S the term Madison uses, right.

[00:13:00] Pluralism. Right. I think the pluralism of our society is alive and well. The problem is that pluralism goes in both directions. Good and bad. Uh, inclusive and exclusive. Uh, and I think one of the things we have to think about is how does. Accentuate the positive pluralism and diminish lots of the negative elements of pluralism in our society.

[00:13:23] Do you think podcasting helps with that? Zachary? Do you think this has been a worthwhile project? I mean, we went into this project because we were interested in the topics and we wanted to do this was your idea actually at first, but I think we also hoped that it would have a positive effect that this was a kind of form of activism.

[00:13:37] What do you think? Have we succeeded so far?

[00:13:40] Zachary: I

[00:13:40] think we’ve, I think the, the incredible opportunity of the podcast platform is that it is exactly what I was saying before about conversations. It is about actually sitting down or, or, or running or working out or driving to work while listening to another human being.

[00:14:00] And it’s not confrontational. You’re forced to just listen. Not respond, not provoke, not be provoked. You’re forced to actually listen to what the other person has to say. And I think that is really powerful. I think it helps bring out the things that we agree on. Uh, and, and in some ways I think finding what we agree on.

[00:14:22] Pushing us towards that positive pluralism. But at the same time, I think that the danger of the podcast medium, which we’ve seen in the past few years is that it can also lead to a disregard for the importance of facts and in a shared truth. And at the end of the day, I think that that what our podcast has shown is that.

[00:14:45] Any good, uh, effort to address, uh, democratic issues in our society needs is to start from a basic platform of truth and to start with the history with the facts that matter. And I think when we started this podcast, a lot of our assumptions were that people would, would know some of the facts, right.

[00:15:06] That we were, we were, we were taking the history, that’s taught in the classroom and bringing it into the present. But in some ways we need to bring the history of the class. Into the present. We need people who are thinking about issues today to actually think about the history and the facts that matter.

[00:15:22] And to start at that point,

[00:15:23] Jeremi: I think you hit the nail on the head. I think one of the achievements of our podcast has been to create civil conversations with people from very different points. Some of whom will disagree with us. We’ve had many guests on who you and I have disagreed with, but we don’t yell at each other on this podcast.

[00:15:40] We ask, uh, open-ended questions and we seek fact-based answers and opinions that build upon facts. Uh, and we do that by looking to the past, understand what’s happened before we advocate for positions today. And I think that emphasis upon fact and civil conversation, but, but fact-based conversation and conversation.

[00:16:00] That’s not. But that’s, uh, authentic and that reflects, uh, the thinking and research and activities and experience of the speaker. I think that’s so crucial. Uh, it’s both the civilizing and I think fact elements of the conversation that may make such a difference. And we’ve also chosen guests who we think really want to talk rather than just pontificate.

[00:16:23] I think. Learned more clearly that there’s a very big difference between having a conversation and simply, uh, pontificating about a position. And we’re not about pontification on this podcast. And I think we’ve succeeded in showing that we can have several conversations with people from the right and the left.

[00:16:40] Uh, we’ve had people like will hurt on. Republican. And we’ve had, uh, people very far to the left, like Samantha power on our podcast. So we’ve gone, you know, in all, in all directions and, and many in between. Um, but what’s been your favorite parts equity?

[00:16:56] Zachary: Well,

[00:16:57] I think my favorite part is I said earlier has been the guests for sure, but I’ve, I’ve also really loved.

[00:17:02] Um, I really loved getting to sort of. Uh, the world, as I sort of mentioned in my poem with you getting to see and speak with and, and comprehend the, the, the scholarship of people around the world. We’ve, we’ve spoken with people in Ecuador, uh, in Germany and Australia. We’ve, we’ve spoken with people around the world.

[00:17:27] We’ve really gotten a world tour, uh, in, in both a geographic sense, but also in terms of, in terms of thought, And, and political adherence. And I think for me, at least it’s, it’s shown me that even in, in some of the parts of our society, the institutions that we are most cynical about, there are still good people, right?

[00:17:48] There are still people who are willing to have that conversation who are willing to start from the basis of fact. And we’ve talking to people who are both inside institutions, uh, working outside of institutions to hold them accountable. And we’ve spoken with people who, uh, actively, uh, search that we need new institutions or that we need fewer institutions.

[00:18:09] And I think what our podcast has shown is that at the end of the day, it’s really those people who have. And not necessarily the institutional or legal structures that are supposed to uphold the principles

[00:18:22] they’re speaking.

[00:18:23] Jeremi: Right. It’s all about people. I think that’s right. Uh, and that’s fundamentally what democracy is.

[00:18:28] It’s not a set of institutions or rules. It’s a set of behaviors back to, to talk Phil that’s what, what he noted. And I think. Uh, challenges for us going forward in our next 200 episodes is not only capturing and showcasing that as you call it positive, conversational energy that, uh, experimental desire to address real problems, that commitment to, uh, Change pragmatic well-informed change.

[00:18:54] I think the challenge is building on that and finding ways to channel that into our politics. So it’s not just in our ears, but actually in our society in wider ways. Uh, turning, I think what we’ve seen so much of the positive energy in our podcast discussions coming from our guests and turning that energy into something more than conversation, but into the actual.

[00:19:16] Day-to-day politics of our society, which are dominated, not by these conversations, but instead by the name calling the hate, the anger, the separation, the dividing, the extremism, somehow bringing these productive conversations, these thoughtful conversations, these pragmatic ideas, bringing them into our politics.

[00:19:36] And I think we have to explore how the podcast can do a better job, our podcasts and others in, in, in helping to leverage. These discussions for change.

[00:19:45] Zachary: And I think on

[00:19:46] that note too, we need to make sure that we’re not just hearing from the same old voices. I think particularly. In, in an age of isolation and, and, uh, really sort of tribalism, we’ve gotten a little too stuck in, uh, some of the same people, the same ideas, the same, the same, uh, politics.

[00:20:08] And I think that part of the responsibility that we’re going to have moving forward is not to just hearing from the voices that are already heard in a longer format. And, and getting to actually ask them real questions, but also hearing from voices that aren’t heard and doing our own sort of, uh, in investigation, if you will, our own sort of fact-finding mission, right?

[00:20:32] Finding people who are really on the ground. And I think we have a real opportunity to do that with this global network we’ve built over the past four years or so. And I think that with that, we need to make sure that we have, uh, not just guests from different institutions, with different backgrounds, uh, but also we needed, we need more diversity.

[00:20:53] Right? I agree if we’re honest with ourselves, we haven’t, we haven’t managed to have as many young people as we liked as many people of color, um, as many women. And I think. At the end of the day, that needs to be at the core of what we do.

[00:21:07] Jeremi: I agree. I think we’ve had, I think around 150 guests on 200 episodes that we’ve covered a wide range of areas.

[00:21:14] We’ve covered people who were studying all kinds of topics and from all kinds of regions of the world. And we have had. A fair amount of gender and racial diversity, but, um, there are still many viewpoints, many important viewpoints fact-based viewpoints that we have not brought in. And there were some viewpoints that have been heard much more than others.

[00:21:34] And I don’t think that’s as much a bias on our part as it is, uh, a tendency to, uh, draw on people who are already part of Wednesday. And so I think we need to think about ways of, uh, widening and further diversifying. I mean, diversity, not just in terms of how people look into those backgrounds. I mean, points of view, uh, everyone that we bring on this show should be authentic.

[00:21:56] They should be talking about what they really believe in rather than pontificating and they should be, um, Doing and talking about what they do based on knowledge, real knowledge. Uh, so we don’t want to just represent points of view for the sake of representing points of view.

[00:22:11] Zachary: Right. And we want your ideas

[00:22:12] too.

[00:22:12] So if you have, if you have ideas, not just for guests, but for topics, if there’s something you feel like we’ve missed, uh, please send those in by all means,

[00:22:21] Jeremi: right?

[00:22:21] You can, uh, from our website, of course you can find our email addresses. The easiest way is just to email me at Siri at U Texas. Uh, Austin to the Surrey at Austin that you Texas that EDU, uh, and, uh, then the website has my email address and other contact information.

[00:22:40] So feel free to send us, uh, your suggestions. Um, Zachary, what do you think? The poetry ads it’s, it’s the signature element of our podcast. In addition to the quality of the conversation, in addition to the quality and range of the guests and the. Democracy focused questions and the historical perspective.

[00:23:00] I think the poetry is what stands out. When I talk to people about the podcast, that’s often the first thing they say, what do you think it

[00:23:06] adds?

[00:23:07] Zachary: I think it adds, as we were saying earlier, that personal element, right? It brings it back to the, the people who are experiencing the topic at hand, the people, the emotions, the, the, the personal, the feelings that the theory, all nature.

[00:23:23] Of the topic and it forces us to look at, um, whatever the topic of the week is, uh, from the perspective of the people who are actually experiencing it. And it takes us outside of the institution. It takes us outside of the scholarship and forces us to really consider seriously what it is like to be in that kind of situation.

[00:23:49] Right. Whether it was talking about death row last year, Um, or, or COVID, or, or economic crises or, or Ukraine or Ukraine, right? It, I think that at least for me what the, what the poetry has done is it’s forced me to try and think about. What it is like to be in that other perspective. And it’s not about it.

[00:24:14] Can’t be just about, uh, the sort of stereotypes. It has to be something that, that feels authentic. And for me, at least the trick is always to try and find something that feels authentic, but still also feels like.

[00:24:26] Jeremi: Right. And I think what your poetry does, uh, for those of us who are listening to it, myself, to guests, our listeners, um, is that the poetry forces us to think about an issue we might have already thought about in perhaps new ways.

[00:24:41] It tests our thinking, and it takes us a little bit outside our comfort zone and too much of what we do in the world today. Either tries to reaffirm what we already think or attack us for what we’re thinking. As any great art form, uh, has the opportunity to do neither of those things. It does not reaffirm and it does not, uh, attack, uh, it actually reforms.

[00:25:05] Zachary: Yeah.

[00:25:06] And I think also, at least for me, it’s, it’s the power of coming into the conversation with, with my poem written and, and our guests with their notes, with their, their evidence prepared and seeing how the two mesh, I mean, there’ve been times when, when, when it’s it’s. Right. And it’s, it’s, it’s hard to reconcile the poem with the conversation, but I think that makes it even more powerful.

[00:25:31] Right. And I think at the end of the day, it’s about, uh, trying to, to find that emotional. Uh, and, uh, it’s very interesting to see how different guests have responded to that. Um, how different poems have fit in, uh, to the experiences that we share here on the podcast. Uh, and, and I think that’s been, at least for me, what’s most valuable about bringing the poetry

[00:25:55] Jeremi: and I think it fits with one of the other really important elements of the podcast, which is that.

[00:26:01] We have planned thoughtful conversations, but they’re open-ended, we don’t begin by saying we want to, and with affirming this position or affirming this candidate and the serendipitous connection between your poem and the guest statements or the non serendipitous non connection. Changes the development of the conversation.

[00:26:23] And so every conversation is a new adventure. Everyone goes in a new direction. There’s no pre-planned end, except the clock in a sense. And that makes the conversation more real. It makes it more creative. And I think it actually opens it up to more honesty rather than prefigured, uh, performance.

[00:26:44] Zachary: Certainly

[00:26:45] I would definitely agree. Um, and I think also that we’ve also, at least personally, I think that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve really grown as a questioner

[00:26:54] and I think you have to,

[00:26:55] you have to as well, and that I think we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve managed to, to really, I think capture the most important topics in our questions to cover a lot while also keeping that personal.

[00:27:08] That PR that emotional truth at the center of our discussion. And I think in our best moments, uh, we’ve managed to cover the historical, the factual, the depressing, while still keeping that emotional truth there and, and, and still keeping

[00:27:23] Jeremi: and still keeping the hope there. The hope is hope, right? Because our podcast is hopeful.

[00:27:27] Uh, our podcast is, uh, open-eyed about the challenges. As you said, even the depressive elements of our society. We’ve dealt with the ugly. Uh, killings, war, um, injustice, hate prejudice, uh, genocide. We we’ve, you know, we’ve, we’ve dealt with all the big, difficult issues. And unfortunately there are more of them in our world now than what we expected when we started this podcast.

[00:27:55] Um, but as we’ve done that we’ve remained hopeful. I think because we see the energy and the creativity of the people we talk to. And because that historical perspective tells us that human beings have. In imperfect ways in unjust ways and unfair ways, but they have endured and we do have the capacity to learn.

[00:28:12] We don’t always learn what we have the capacity to learn. Um, and I think exactly that might be the hopeful point we should close on. What makes you most hopeful from the podcast?

[00:28:23] Zachary: I think what makes me most hopeful from the podcast is, is, is at least getting to see. As, as I’ve grown up. Um, and, and as our world has, has grown up, if you will, uh, getting to, to see how my opinions change and, and then how I can actually listen.

[00:28:44] I think for me, the most valuable thing, the most hopeful thing is the power of this podcast, medium to make myself, to make others less hostile, more willing to listen. And actually hear other people and think critically. I think that, uh, one of the key messages of our podcast is that we need more critical thinking.

[00:29:05] And I think at, I think at the end of the day, maybe that’s the real purpose of our podcast. It’s not just to inspire hope, but it’s to force people to think.

[00:29:15] Jeremi: Well, I have certainly learned just building on your very wise and eloquent comments that agree I have certainly learned, um, to listen more, to listen to more people and to listen more closely.

[00:29:29] The podcast has really taught me to do that. It’s been an exercise in listening for me as much as questioning and speaking, and I look forward to at least 200 more episodes. Listening to your incredible poetry, listening to our extraordinary guests and even more than both of those things, listening to our society at large and trying to hear how the voices of our podcast can begin.

[00:29:54] Begin to push our society to some better, better ends. I know what’s possible. I see it in our guests. I see it in your eyes and in your poems. And I think our podcast, in that sense, it’s a bellwether of the power of ideas, the power of hope, power of history and the power of, um, To all of that in a time when we’re told to yell, before we listen, we’re saying to slow down and listen.

[00:30:21] Zachary: Yes. So thank you to our listeners.

[00:30:23] Jeremi: Thank you for listening. And back to where we started with Franklin Roosevelt. We are part of the next chapter of our democracy. And that chapter is being written on this podcast and in so many other places, thank you for joining us, uh, for the first 200 episodes, we hope you have time to catch up on any you’ve missed.

[00:30:43] And, uh, we hope to have at least 200 more that are at least as good as the ones that,

[00:30:49] Zachary: and thank you to everyone at the, uh, liberal arts instructional technology services. Uh, UT college of liberal arts who have who’ve made this possible. You you’ll hear their voices at the beginning and the end of this podcast.

[00:31:02] And they’re, they’re the real heroes they, they make this podcast actually work. Uh, so, so,

[00:31:07] Jeremi: and they embody all the ideals of this podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us, not just for this week, but for this podcast, adventure. Thank you for joining us for this is democracy.

[00:31:27] this podcast is produced by the liberal arts, its development studio and the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Codini. stay tuned for a new episode every week.

[00:31:42] You can

[00:31:42] find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

[00:31:47] See you next time.