This is Democracy – Episode 197: Real Reform

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Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy. Today. We’re going to discuss, uh, political reform in democracy. Uh, many people talk about reform. They talk about change, uh, but we know from history that reform requires fundamental shifts in the way we set up our institutions. In the way we created incentives and in the way we allocate our resources.

So reform is often much more than just the personalities of those in power, but the ways in which they change the structure of power, the allocation of power, and this is a fundamental element of a historical change in democracy. It’s one of the most difficult elements. We’re joined today by someone who has spent, I think the last decade, decade and a half, thinking about exactly it is that these issues, uh, he’s he represents a younger generation of political thinkers well-educated, uh, deeply experienced and, uh, willing to think big about how to change our society, change our society out of a love of our society.

Uh, this is Steve Ola. Carra uh,

welcome Steve.

Steven Olikara: Thank you, Jeremy. It’s great to be back on the

podcast.

Jeremi: It’s always great to

have you on Steve. Uh, Steve was a student of mine years ago at the university of Wisconsin. And even then I feel like I was his student. He was mine. Uh, Steve went on from the university of Wisconsin to become a Truman school.

And then after that distinguished fellowship, uh, he founded the millennial action project in Washington, DC, which for a decade has been, I think the leading institution bringing millennials in elected office and in various other public roles together across party, uh, to work on issues, uh, such as, uh, gun control, which has been a serious issue in our world.

Um, every day recently, uh, Steve has worked on that issue and many others with. Political figures across the aisle and those who are especially coming into politics from a younger experience and a new perspective, uh, he’s now running for Senate in Wisconsin. And, uh, we hope he’ll do very well there as well.

And his whole campaign is built around political reform. So it’s really great to have Steve with us today. Before we turn to our discussion with Steve, we have of course, Mr. Zachary series’ scene setting poem. What’s the title of your poem? Today’s.

Zachary: I’d like to tell you the world will be fine.

Jeremi: Okay. Let’s hear it.

Zachary: I’d like to tell you the world will be fine. If you could see us playing with your own eyes, change comes slowly. Yes, but it comes on top. We milk cows here, your ice cream down the line, wake up in cold city blocks at sunrise. I’d like to tell you the world will be fine. I know you’d figure we’re not so resigned to fate.

If you’d seen our unceasing skies change comes slowly. Yes, but it comes on time and up there you are looking down to find, we have noticed that your riches are lies. I’d like to tell you the world will be fine. You think perhaps we’ve forgotten the size of your wallet. It sits there. Some grand prize change comes slowly.

Yes, but it comes on time. We have not forgotten how to align principles with the truth of our own cries. I’d like to tell you the world will be fine. Change comes slowly. Yes, but it comes on time.

Jeremi: I love that refrain. Zachary change comes slowly, but it comes on time. Well, what are you saying?

Zachary: I think my poem is really about, uh, the ways in which, uh, I think there is a great majority in our country who want change, who realized that our systems of government aren’t working as they should, and, and realize that we need something different.

We need something new. We need some sort of change. Uh, and I think that makes this change in some sense, inevitable, but that doesn’t mean we can’t, we can stop working for it. We, we can. Pushing for it.

Jeremi: And B, before we turn to Steve quickly, uh, Zachary D do you find this reinforced by the, um, terrible recent shootings in our society?

Zachary: I mean, I think it’s very difficult, um, to see anything hopeful in that. And I don’t want to pretend that it’s possible, but I do think that, uh, that, that, that if anything, that the horrors of the past few months, the horrors of the past few years have made it even more clear that we need something different.

Jeremi: Steve, what do you think?

Steven Olikara: Well, I’m sitting here and first of all of your poetic genius, Zachary. One of my favorite quotes from president Kennedy is when power corrupts, poetry cleanses and your poems, Zachary, not only in this episode, but across this podcast have been, uh, I think cleansing, uh, to the soul of our democracy.

And when you talk about the majority is ready for change, I think about what we’ve been talking about in Wisconsin. The exhausted majority, the exhausted majority of, uh, people who are disillusioned by politics who cut across party lines and want their elected leaders to work together and get things done.

And this population often is not engaged in political campaigns by believers, the transformation we’re seeking in our politics. Is one in which we do involve the exhausted majority to be at the forefront and make sure government is working for, for everyone and not just a very narrow segment of.

Jeremi: And Steve, how do we do that?

How do we counteract? What I think is reinforced every day, unfortunately, which is a sense of cynicism and almost a desire. I hear this from many people just to turn away from politics. It’s so ugly. And then with shootings in our society, it seems so dangerous to how do we get people to stay engaged?

Steven Olikara: Well, I think first of all, I think. Uh, in Wisconsin recently, there was a study that showed 80% of Wisconsinites majorities of Democrats, Republicans, and independence, uh, believe the federal government is fundamentally broken right now. So that’s where we’re starting from. That type of statistic is cannot be the result of just one person.

It really is a system level breakdown. And so when you have a system level breakdown, you see the lack of progress on gun violence on climate change on student debt reform on broad economic opportunities for people. And so I think we, as, as citizens, as participants in this democracy need to look at the deeper.

Issues that are causing a lot of the political dysfunction right now. And I think the way that we inspire hope in people is by highlighting these reforms, highlighting concrete reforms that are going to make our government work for the vast majority of people and having worked in the political reform space for the last decade, there was a.

Common assumption that talking about political reform, whether it’s money in politics, gerrymandering reform among other issues, voting innovations, like rain choice. Is C a process issue. And therefore you cannot stir people’s excitement around those issues. And therefore you shouldn’t even really lead with it on cam on the campaign trail.

Uh, I think that is wrong. I think that people, whether it’s young people who are disillusioned anyone, who’s part of the exhausted majority. Is wondering why things are so broken and these reform issues speak directly to that brokenness, but then also offer a concrete pathway to make things work better.

And I think when you’re. Look at the aftermath of, of COVID you realize that, you know, the issue that should have been the most human, the most unifying issue became one of the most polarizing and divisive issues in America. And that should be just the latest piece of evidence that clearly there’s a system level breakdown, and we got to fix it.

And the good news is people are ready for that. Uh, we need to provide the spaces for people to organize around those reforms. And I think that, um, our state of Wisconsin, uh, and our country, uh, is on the cusp of a major democratic renewal.

Zachary: But if that democratic reform is so difficult, as you hinted at how do we stop this dissatisfaction with government?

This, this that’s very deeply felt dissatisfaction with government, from becoming mistrust.

Steven Olikara: Well, I think the mistrust is real and, and frankly well founded, you know, when, you know, the vast majority of Americans, uh, don’t trust their government, uh, to do good and productive things in their lives. And so, um, I think it’s totally well-founded and I think the way that we change that dynamic is by electing public leaders who, uh, Drawn to a cause that’s larger than themselves, actually care about public service and believe that restoring character and integrity, uh, to our political system, um, is important.

Uh, one of the best pieces of advice I got from a mentor when I was getting involved in politics was everyone you’ll meet will fit into one of two categories. People who want to be something and people who want to do something. And unfortunately, the number of people in the latter category as much fewer than the former.

But if we elect people to office who want to do something, that’s going to inspire public confidence in our public institutions, because not only are people gonna do what they said they were going to do, but also you’ll see. Results coming from government that has a positive impact in people’s lives.

Jeremi: So,

so let’s talk about some of those concrete reforms.

One of the things I respect so much about you, Steve, as you’ve spent the last decade, really working through these problems, working with people, especially young people on both sides of the aisle to try to think about how we can make real reform in our institutions and our processes. So where would you start?

What are your, what are your top issues for

reform?

Steven Olikara: The place I would start and the place where I’ve committed, my first piece of legislation would be directed at is I think an issue that touches on all the issues that are of concern to people right now, whether everything from gun violence to, to human rights, um, it’s an issue that.

Gets at the root of why politics has become so corrupted, why divisive leadership is the norm right now and why members of Congress are incentivized not to do their job. And that is the issue of money and politics. And I’ve committed. My first piece of legislation will be getting big money out of politics.

And I’ll share a quick story that really illustrates this point. As you referenced during my days with millennial action project, I worked with a lot of members of Congress. And one time I was getting coffee with the member of Congress at one o’clock in the afternoon, we finished the meeting and I looked back at the us Capitol and I say, well, I assume you’ll be going back to your office now.

And she looks at me sheepishly, and she goes, no, sorry. I actually have to go across the street to my party headquarters, to fundraise for my reelection. Now I’m thinking to myself, It’s only one o’clock in the afternoon that we still have a whole second half of the Workday here, and you’re leaving your job to fundraise for a reelection and the dirty truth that party leaders don’t want people to know about is that most members of Congress are spending most of their time fundraising for their reelection.

Now, of course, this doesn’t pass the common sense test anywhere you can’t go to your boss and say, can you pay me a salary? To work a different job. And of course the boss of this case is us and we’re as taxpayers are the ones who are paying that salary. So to do a good job at anything, you got to put in time to it.

And frankly, members of Congress, uh don’t in terms of their day job. Uh, now in terms of the corruption, you see so much manipulation of the tax code happening for the, the special interests right now. But one of the ways that. Is most egregious is what I would call actual legal bribes going on. And this is where you have a member of Congress.

Let’s say you want to be the chairman of the financial services committee. Well, they have a price to pay for that. It’s about a million dollars or more. And where are you going to get the money for that? It’s going to come from. The financial services industry. And so you have these different industries who are literally sponsoring members to, to, uh, to, to join committees.

Now, what can we do about that? What does getting big money out of politics? Actually look like we’ve released a comprehensive agenda, uh, to do that. And it’s more comprehensive than I think I’ve seen from any other candidate this cycle. And, uh, the root of it is a model. Currently in place in Connecticut, it’s called the citizen election program.

And what it says basically is if you’re a candidate running for office, you need to crowdfund support from the community. And when you reach a threshold of viability, you’ll get a grant from the government to run a competitive campaign. Now, if you’re opting into that program, you need to swear off a PAC money, any kind of lobbyists and corporate money.

And there is a cap on. Self-funding, this is one of the big loopholes in our politics right now, where you can be a billionaire or a son of a billionaire or a spouse of a billionaire and put a. Tens of millions of dollars into your own campaign, um, while other candidates are restricted, uh, in terms of their fundraising.

So it creates a huge imbalance and this reform would help to, uh, alleviate that issue. The final thing I just want to mention on getting big money out of politics is it’s not just about the corruption. It’s not just about how members of Congress spend their time. It’s also who’s even allowed to run for office in the first.

W I think it’s so hypocritical. We hear from party leaders when they say we care about the working class. Well, what about enabling the working class to run for office and allowing them to be decision makers in Congress. And right now, if you want to run for a federal office, uh, you’re often neglecting your job and your income for over a year to do.

That’s not realistic for a lot of working people. So, uh, one of our reforms is actually directly aimed at helping working class people afford, uh, to be able to run for office. So to me, money is at the root of it. And we were getting people fired up across the board on this issue.

Jeremi: This all makes a

lot of sense.

And, and in fact it makes so much sense. You’re not the first to see these things, right? This is, this is an old argument in a sense, um, Can one make it happen now because the problem of course, is those who benefit from this system are the ones in office. And we need those in office to actually pass this kind of legislation.

That’s always been the roadblock. So how do you get people in. Uh, even if you’re one of them to actually follow through on this.

Steven Olikara: Well, I’ll share

a parallel example to this in the state of Connecticut, which was, which has been our model. They, the citizens elections program, uh, was passed in 2016 and it’s not surprisingly allowed young people, women, minorities, people from all different backgrounds, run for office and actually.

Because so many new people were coming into office. The state’s establishment leadership sought to suspend, uh, an end that program. And what happened was. Young legislators United across party lines to say, we want to keep this program on the books. A lot of members who we have worked directly with millennia through a millennial action project and they succeeded in that fight.

So I think we need something similar to that in Congress. Uh, there’s no doubt that the, uh, the establishment in probably both parties would be against these types of reforms. Uh, but I do think for the new members and the young members, there’s a huge constituency for change. And I think if you can unite that group across party lines, uh, that’s going to send a powerful statement to leadership.

And the other thing I’d point to is any member of Congress has spoken to about this. They hate it too. They don’t want to spend all their time selling their soul to donors. They don’t want to spend all their time dialing for dollars from donors. You know, the vast majority of people who ran for office.

To serve in Congress, wanted to be a member of Congress, not a, what I call a corporate telemarketer. You know, they want it to actually legislate and they’re not able to do their job. So behind the scenes, there’s a lot of support for this. So the missing piece here is the permission story. If we can give people the permission to support this, then we’re going to have, I think, a lot of support and probably majority of members who support something like this.

Jeremi: So let’s,

let’s move on to another structural issue. And again, it’s on all of our minds now because of the recent incidents of gun violence and the death of so many innocent people. It seems almost every day in our society. Uh, that seems to be a structural problem that, uh, the number of guns in our society by most measures has more than doubled.

In the last decade. And, uh, there are more people using guns to kill more people. It seems on a day-to-day basis. So what can we do

about that?

Steven Olikara: Yeah, well, I think with some of the reason mass shootings we’ve seen in Texas and Wisconsin and across the country first, we w we need to make a moral call that this cannot be normalized in the United States.

Uh, and we need structural reform as, as you’re mentioning Jeremy. And, uh, I believe that. This ties to the issues we’ve been discussing earlier with the money, because it is so profitable, right? Not only for a number of members to directly accept contributions from the NRA, but it’s even deeper than that.

There’s a huge incentive not to get something done on gun violence, even though some of the reforms like universal background checks, uh, are supported by the vast majority of Americans. Now, what we’re doing in our campaign is transformative on this issue. It draws on what we did with the millennial action project, where we passed gun violence legislation specifically to allow the centers for disease control, to study and fund a gun violence prevention.

But the idea here is that there are a lot of people. Who are gun owners, uh, who use guns for recreational purposes, who live in red parts of Wisconsin and ride parts of America, um, who actually do want safe regulations. Um, and, and one of the proposals that I’ve seen, that’s gotten a lot of traction across party lines, um, is the idea of gun licensing, uh, to make sure that we have universal gun licensing, that there are no loopholes.

And we essentially make the same argument we make for driving. If you want to drive one of the most dangerous things you can do in America today is drive a car. Uh, and, and especially with certain drivers, certain drivers. Absolutely. And, uh, not looking at anyone in particular here. Because of that, there is a whole process you have to go through, you have to go to driver’s ed, you have to pass a driver’s test.

You have to get a driver’s license. You need to renew that license over time. And I think the same thing has to be true, uh, for guns. And to me, this is not a left or right thing. This is a post-partisan solution, uh, to hopefully transform the politics on gun by.

Zachary: But

how do you make that a reality in a world where it’s not unfortunately, a sort of post-partisan issue, at least in the reality in the, in the legislature, in Washington, right?

How do you move past those partisan, those big money roadblocks, uh, in the legislature without alienating potential?

Steven Olikara: Well, I think we have to change the incentives of how members of Congress not only run for office, but also, you know, govern. So I would point to another really impactful reform that I think is about to gain a lot of traction and visibility.

I considered this issue to be aware gerrymandering reform was, uh, about 10 years ago. Uh, and that. The issue of opening up the primary system and enacting rank choice voting, um, what that means in practices. Uh, you have, you know, candidates from a lot of different backgrounds, different political parties, um, you know, who are all on one nonpartisan primary ballot, and then the top five move on to the general election.

And then you rank those. Uh, and so what that does is first of all, shifts the. At tension really to the general election, when you have a lot more people voting, as opposed to the primary election where sometimes only the most extreme voices do and the way that connects to your questions, Zachary, on, on how we actually pass some of these reforms around gun violence is members of Congress who are blocking gun violence.

Right now they’re thinking about their primary election. And again, most people in Congress. Putting their fingers to the wind and saying, how can I stay in office? And so if we change the incentive of how you stay in office, that’s going to change their calculus. And allow more members to cross the aisle and support gun violence, reforms.

Jeremi: It’s so interesting. You made

that point and it’s, it’s a point we’ve talked about before on the podcast. The primary system is we have, it is of course not in the constitution. It’s something that was created in part in the early 20th century, and then really came to modern fruition in the 1970s and 1980s.

Um, and, and one. Very well, think of designing a different kind of system that didn’t have the bias of the current system has to the most extreme members of each party. Those are the people who show up in primaries. And most recently in Georgia, Texas primary runoffs in the middle, in the middle of the late spring, early summer, right?

If we had a system that actually had was a more open primary with more participation in ranked choice, voting where all the candidates were together, it would allow moderate figures actually to draw more support. So the point here being that the system. Now reflects a history that might not be the history we want to use right now.

Wow.

Steven Olikara: Well said, Jeremy, and I think when you look at examples where this is happening right now, take Alaska. For example, they have essentially what’s called a final four voting system where we have a, um, open primary. Uh, and then the top four move on. This is. Impactful for someone like a Senator Lisa Murkowski, who is the one Republican to impeach Trump.

And she, um, you know, she or approval rating in the Republican party is 9% and Alaska. And I think she’s got a really good shot of being reelected because she’s not thinking about her primary election. She’s thinking about the general election. Cause she’ll surely move on, um, as one of the top four, uh, and the primary.

And so it’s going to. Enable more senators and members of Congress to find their inner political courage and vote on what’s. Right. And not just what’s politically expedient.

Jeremi: Right. And, and

Senator Murkowski is a great example, as you said, uh, she was one of the few Republicans to vote for Trump’s conviction after he

was impeached.

Steven Olikara: Right. That’s what I meant

to say,

Jeremi: but it’s a

very important point. Many members of the Senate. I said afterwards that they might’ve voted, uh, on his conviction, but they were afraid about what would have happened in Republican primaries, where Trump had a lot of support that they would lose their primary, even though what they were doing might be popular with 50% plus in their

states.

Steven Olikara: Yeah.

And I think this dynamic is becoming even more extreme right now because of social media. Uh, when you have members of Congress who were only responding to that tiny slice of the primary electorate, And just to put that in context to context, the numbers are something like 9% of, uh, the American population is essentially electing 90% of members of Congress because the 9% are essentially deciding who’s on the primary ballot.

And the vast majority of seats are already safe. And so, uh, you have a relatively small number of people who are deciding a lie here. And when you add social media to the equation, you have. Some extremely loud and extreme voices who are living in a social media echo chamber. That’s then pushing these members of Congress to go so far to the extreme and, and resist any kind of cooperation on issues.

And that’s just not sustainable for our democracy. Uh longer-term

Jeremi: uh, and

so some would say that these are structural issues in the way we’ve set up our primaries in the last 50 years, uh, how we conduct voting, but at some level it’s also still a turnout issue. Isn’t it? Uh, certain, especially young people tend not to vote.

Very large numbers. Certain groups don’t vote in large numbers. How do we fix that,

Steve?

Steven Olikara: Well, I th I’ve just put a finer point on your question, Jeremy. Uh, we’re seeing this right now in Wisconsin. Now the primary election is August 9th, August 9th is not only when school is out and students are not on campus, but it’s one week before student leases start, uh, uh, on, uh, at least in the states, the largest university campus that UWA Madison.

You wonder, why is that? Well, I mean, the system is designed to suppress young people from voting. And so I think certainly we need to reform the primary system and make election day a national holiday and do a lot of things to encourage participation and make it easier to vote. Um, I also think that we need to give people a reason to vote.

I think that we need to show young people that politics can make a positive difference in your lives. You know? Say a member of my generation, the millennial generation. And you know, you’ve seen these endless wars occupied most of our lives, and you’ve seen mass, uh, gun violence, uh, a common occurrence in the headlines.

Do you see Congress completely stuck on issues like climate change? You’re wondering. Is this even worth my time. And of course it is, it absolutely is. Um, but we need to give people a reason to vote and that’s partly why. I was moved to run for office, even though I knew the odds are certainly stacked against us.

And we’re challenging a Balti billion dollar, uh, political industry here, uh, because I, I, I strongly believe as Zachary referenced in his poem that people are ready. I think that people are ready, uh, that if there is a different option made available, um, more. Um, people are going to gravitate towards that.

It kind of, it reminds me when I was in high school, I was leading this a crusade for healthy foods. And the basic line from the administration was, well, you know, students don’t like healthy. And I said, well, you don’t even have the food available on the shelves. And we started introducing that healthier granola bars and healthier drinks.

And those almost w within a few weeks became the most popular items at the school. And so we just got to, I think we got to make that alternative option made aware to a lot more.

Jeremi: So one more quick question on political reform that comes up all the time, a term limits, are you for them against them? What,

what are your

thoughts?

Steven Olikara: I’m for them? And I’m proud to be the only candidate in this race who is in favor of them. And it stems from my experience with millennial action project, uh, working with members of Congress and understanding the dynamics here. First of all, Who’s elected to leadership and who’s elected to Congress has, um, let me actually put it this way.

The average member of Congress today is about 20 years older than the average American. And part of the reason for that is the huge advantage of incumbency and anyone who saw those . Facebook hearings with mark Zuckerberg, uh, where you had these 80 year old Senate. Asking, how does the Facebook work, uh, is, uh, just a stark visual reminder that, uh, we need people in Congress who are actually adept on some of these issues, but also are going to see the real effects of some of these issues like climate change, for example.

And, um, and so in states right now, where there are term limits, we’ve got millennial majority leaders, we’ve got millennials speakers of the house. Uh, and so you see that refreshing of leadership. So I do support term limits in Congress, uh, both to allow, uh, younger people and more non-traditional candidates, uh, to have a real shot, um, in these offices, uh, but also to help move the agenda forward a little bit more.

And then here’s the final reason. It changes the calculus when members of Congress are making decisions because the calculus, when under term limits, Becomes less about self-preservation and it becomes more about how can I make a difference within the limited amount of time. Uh, now we got to give them enough time, uh, to make a difference.

So I think, you know, in the Senate, uh, certainly no more than 18 years, I think if you haven’t made a difference in 18 years, uh, it’s probably time to step aside and allows the new leaders to step forward. Um, but it allows members to have a set period of time when they think, all right, this is. Brief stage in my life when I can go and make a difference.

Uh, and then I go back into private life and live under those laws. That was what the founding fathers intended to have a citizen legislature.

Jeremi: Right.

It

took a constitutional amendment to create term limits on the presidency. And generally, no one complains about that. And so maybe that’s indicative of something we could think about for the.

And there are of course constitutional issues doing that for federal office, but certainly states could start doing that for state offices, as, as you say, Steve, some states

have.

Steven Olikara: Yeah. I, the most vivid example that comes to mind is Colorado. You know, seeing a lot of young people in leadership there and millennial action project works directly with them.

And we saw just a lot of innovative pieces of legislation coming through on everything from, you know, the sharing economy to, you know, Marijuana legislation. Um, it was really led by young people there. So like you said, this is happening at the state level. And, um, I believe the latest polling showed about.

Um, it was over 75% of Americans agree that we need term limits on members of Congress.

Jeremi: So

as you know, Steve, we always like to close our episodes on a positive forward-looking note that builds upon the historical knowledge and the issues we’ve discussed. To find a pathways forward. We don’t need any more discussion of what we can’t do.

We need discussion of what we can do and history should help us see what we can do. What are you most optimistic about in the area of reform right

now?

Steven Olikara: Well, just as, as you say that Jeremy I’m reminded of one of my favorite lines that you’ve shared over the years, which is, uh, um, to be a great leader.

You need to be a historian and you have to look back before you can look forward. And just, as you were mentioning that I think about the progressive era in the early 20th century, uh, w w the state of Wisconsin was a huge hub of pro democracy activity. People like fighting Bob Follett and the movement around the Wisconsin idea, creating the direct election of us senators among other reforms.

And I think we’re at one of those inflection points again, what gives me the most hope, right. Is after having done 150 events plus across Wisconsin, just how unifying and electrifying this agenda is. And I think for some reason, I’m probably not so curious these reasons, but you know, the, the political establishment really suppresses these ideas from gaining traction.

And I see it firsthand now being a candidate, you know, going out on the campaign trail. But I’ll say, when I talk about these issues, this gets the biggest applause, and I’ll just maybe, uh, close with this short story. So. One of my favorite days on the campaign trail started in Madison, big progressive area.

And it was a group of leaders who are, who are sort of direct descendants of, um, of, of the fighting Bible of fall at legacy. Uh, they were co-creators of the. Uh, fighting Bob festival, which is one of the big, uh, I think you went to those

Jeremi: absolutely. I’ve

spoken there myself so much fun, so much

fun.

Steven Olikara: You

know, people, uh, you know, ed Garvey has since passed, uh, but you know, people who are contemporaries of, of people like ed Garvey and others, many of the, exactly, exactly.

And, uh, so it was a group of people who are true believers in the progressive movement and pro democracy reform. So naturally our message lit up this room and people were ready to organize. People were ready to get behind what we’re doing, because they’ve been looking for a candidate who prioritizes this, but speaks from the heart about this too.

But the data didn’t stop there. After Madison, we went north to a small town called Neillsville. Uh, we did an event at a veterans Memorial and there was a group of people, probably about 50, 60 people there. And we’re approaching this group and we quickly realized there are no Democrats in this audience.

I had never given a veteran’s Memorial speech before. Um, but I go in front of this audience and I talk about this mission of renewing our politics, bringing integrity to our politics, to deliver concrete things for the veterans community and for people who are suffering from issues like substance abuse and, and unemployment.

And we finished this event and all of a sudden we’re looking around. The, the crowd around us is getting large. And we realized we struck a cord in this room, and I eventually asked a few of the people who are coming up, you know, what, what just happened here? You know, what just connected in this room. And one woman came up and she goes, you know, we’ve been taught to, you know, and for good reason, To distrust all politicians, you know, I don’t really trust any politicians, uh, but you’re talking about something deeper than what I hear from most candidates.

And I feel like I can trust you because you’re speaking from the heart and you’re speaking about the core integrity of our electoral system. And I came away from. Event thinking to myself, this is why I’m running for office, because if we can build this kind of coalition from fighting Bob LA Follette Progressive’s and Madison to Neelsville veterans who are not Democrats, maybe not even necessarily Republicans, they’re just the exhausted majority.

And. Are getting excited by this issue, but more importantly, getting excited about this movement. Uh, that’s going to transform American politics. That’s a coalition we haven’t seen in a long time, um, in, in the U S Capitol. So I, I come away feeling very helpful in optimist.

Jeremi: That

sounds a lot

like a theater Roosevelt and the kinds of crowds you are draw a Zachary.

Do you find this compelling? Do you see. Possibilities for a reform, as you said in your poem, is it time as you see it? And are we, are we there?

Zachary: Yes, I, I do think it is time. I think part of what makes this moment so unique, uh, in its opportunity for change is that we seem to all recognize that the system is broken, even if we can’t agree how.

And I think that this gives us the opportunity. To really push forward for changing and convince people, um, on their own territory, on their own turf and not have to argue in some sort of hypothetical cultural or, or, or, or imaginary political space, but really meet people where they are. And, and, and, and come up with the things that can make a real difference in our lives and in our democracy.

Jeremi: Do you see that happening with other young people like yourself who are just coming into voting age? Do you see that happening for them?

Zachary: I,

I do think so. I think to some extent, the generation slightly older than myself, uh, maybe even just two or three years, uh, had a very acute sense of anger at the system.

A very. Th th that there was no hope, but I think those of, of, of my age, who will be voting for the first time, uh, this November or, or, or the next election have a real sense of possibility, because I think we’ve seen it all fall apart. I mean, in real time. And, and, and we have this sense that for the first time in our lifetimes, maybe there is a.

To actually build something and not simply, uh, try to beat our head against the wall.

Jeremi: You know, I think there, there comes a time in many historical era is when, uh, changing the, the riders of the horse seems less important than actually changing the horse you’re riding. And I think that. Th what, what Steve and Zachary are describing.

So well here, we’re at a moment where there’s still obviously a lot of disagreement and it’s very hard to get people to talk about what they want to do together, but there is a lot of agreement on things that need to change and. The place to start. Steve referred so well to the progressive era and, uh, historians have written volume upon volume.

I’ve contributed to the, these works myself, pointing out all the disagreements between, uh, John Dewey and theater Roosevelt and Jane Adams and various other progressive thinkers, activists, uh, reformers, uh, but what they all agreed upon with some of the things Steve talked about, uh, creating a political system, that’s more representative.

Uh, creating more true participation for citizens and eliminating those, uh, nodes of corruption and distortion, uh, that in fact, every democratic system over time and, uh, we can draw hope and inspiration from that and, and find agreement in those sources of reform for our world today. Steve, I think you’ve articulated this so well.

Uh, thank you for bringing your learning. Your activism and your hope to

these issues.

Steven Olikara: Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you for your continued inspiration on these issues and giving me, uh, when I was from my days as a student, to now as a us Senate candidate, a real historical context, uh, to, to, to, to be able to draw from.

Uh, these issues and I love bringing that out on the campaign trail. So thank you.

Jeremi: I, I,

I’m so

happy to hear you bringing that out. And as I said, you’ve always been my teachers, at least as much as I’ve been yours. Zachary, thank you for your poem again. I think your title set it. All right. I’d like to tell you the world will be fine.

We all. Need to say that to ourselves and we all need to find the reform energy, uh, fundamental reform energy for that. So thank you Sacary for joining us and thank you. Most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this episode of this is democracy

This

podcast is produced by the liberal arts its development studio in the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded

by Harris. Codine stay tuned for a new

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