This is Democracy – Episode 196: Buffalo Shooting

This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the United states, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens. 

Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy today.

We’re going to talk about yet another mass shooting in the United States yet another hate crime, uh, against, um, citizens of the United States, uh, and many others. Um, the shooting on May 14th of, uh, 13 people at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York, 10 of whom have died. The victims were targeted, uh, by a, uh, 18 year old, uh, individual who, uh, believed that, uh, people of color were replacing a white people in our society and he killed, uh, 10 African-Americans, uh, and intended to kill many, many.

Uh, this is, uh, now, um, not just one more shooting in our society. This has become almost a normal part of our, uh, politics today. Um, and it seems as if it’s only getting worse and we’re here today to talk, uh, about why this is happening. Well, what we can do about it and what the future of our democracy is in light of this recurring racialized violence in our society.

We’re fortunate to be joined by a good friend and colleague, uh, who. It’s really a thought leader around these issues. Someone who’s been writing as a historian, a public intellectual, a scholar, and an observer of these issues for years. And some someone who I think is really trying to bring history forward and helping us think through these tragedies and what we can do to make change in our society.

This. Uh, my colleague, uh, Dr. Peniel, Joseph he’s, the Barbara Jordan chair and ethics and political values at the university of Texas at Austin. He’s the founding director of the center for the study of race and democracy at the LBJ school of public affairs and the university as a whole. He’s a professor history professor of public affairs, associate Dean for justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion.

And the author of numerous books, a leading scholar of African-American history, the history of black power and the history of racial politics in the United States. He has a forthcoming book, which is really going to be a terrific contribution to our thinking around these issues that will be out this fall.

The third reconstruction America’s struggle for racial justice. In the 21st century, Peniel has also written the biography of Stokely Carmichael, a fantastic book on Malcolm X and Martin Luther king Jr. The sword and the shield and his earlier work where he and I first became friends studying black power in the United States.

And he writes frequently for CNN and many other outlets. Peniel thank you for joining us this week. 

Dr. Peniel Joseph: Hey, Jeremy. It’s my pleasure. 

Jeremi: Before we turn to our discussion with Peniel of this difficult and important issue we have, of course, our poem for Mr. Zachary Siri, uh, Zachary, what’s the title of your poem today?

Zachary: Summer moon,

Jeremi: summer moon. Well, let’s, let’s hear this. Week’s installment. 

Zachary: I haven’t followed the news for days. Every time I see your headlines, I am somehow drawn back to the image of my own foot in a tennis shoe, stepping over the edges of a parking lot on the edge of Buffalo inches from the end of America.

But I would like to say that somehow I was in Buffalo. Driving from Syracuse to the sea. And we stopped at a gas station. I imagine the supermarket only yards away. I think it was in the same place, the same neighborhood. I used a urinal at a gas station and bought a road Atlas at the counter. There are 230 miles between tree of life, synagogue in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and tops supermarket in Buffalo, New York.

There are 230 miles between you and me. And tonight there is a red summer moon, a red summer moon for you. The moon is now in the depths of the Umbra and we stop our automobiles on the side of the road, and everybody turns their lights off and the city is dark and the world is dark. And we stare up at the white moon turning red in front of our eyes.

Tonight, there was a red summer moon for you, red summer moon. Too. They shot up a synagogue in Pittsburgh. They gun you down in a supermarket in Buffalo. You were too young. You were too young. I was in Pittsburgh once the sun reflected off the steel of the buildings and puddled in little pools along the old interstate bridges, there were three rivers I rode in the backseat between three rivers, the child dreams of rivers, sings of rivers, speaks of rivers.

In the chaotic city scene for the first time from the bridge nameless. Now in my memory is always the city scene for the first time, peering up through the clouds, to the tops of the buildings, rising crudely over the Hills, like bayonets. They protrude in three different directions. So, you know, the world can never be sewn back up.

Now they will have to see. And between Pittsburgh and Buffalo, there are perhaps 230 more miles of this. Either direction. We are lying, always face flat on the floor, pressing our face to the floor as the blood pours out, piles up surges in and out like a hurricane three. We are in the eye of a hurricane.

Around us, the walls of water. They below unceasingly constantly shaking the Hills with their echoing shouts of who, why? And in the 230 miles between Pittsburgh and Buffalo, somewhere in some little town, even as we can see the edge of the storm coming towards us, we are in a little tin box diner. Eating sunny side up eggs and hash Browns with black coffee, you are looking in my eyes and saying how very sorry you are.

And I am looking in your eyes and saying the same, and we keep mumbling to each other. Sweet nothings. They are sweet nothings as the wind rips off the windows and the glass shatters, nothing out of the ordinary. As the floor comes flying up to meet our faces. Nothing out of the ordinary is the walls of the diner crumble at the feet of a world on the March, nothing out of the ordinary.

You look me in the eyes flying up in the sky on a violent cloud, and we say, goodbye, you hovering 230 miles above me, nothing out of the ordinary, nothing out of the ordinary. 

Jeremi: You’re refrained, nothing out of the ordinary is accurate. It’s haunting, isn’t it? 

Zachary: Yes,

it 

really is. And that’s, that’s sort of what my poem is about is the sort of recurring nature of this violence and the ways in which even in two cities, only 200 miles apart, there can be these two tragedies.

That, that seemed not only to symbolize our, our pathologies as a society today, but also unfortunately seem to signal where we’re going. 

Jeremi: Right. Right. And you’re referring of course, uh, in addition to the, uh, shooting in Buffalo on May 14th of this year, the, uh, killing of 11, uh, Jewish members of the tree of life congregation in Pittsburgh and October of 2018.

Zachary: Yes. 

Jeremi: And how recurring, um, and repeated these terrible events are Panille you you’ve been studying this, uh, more deeply than anyone else. I know. Uh, why is this happening? Why, why are we seeing these recurring attacks on, uh, African-Americans Jews and others in our society, uh, by, by young men, often with.

Dr. Peniel Joseph: Well, I think we need to go back to, um, the period of reconstruction. I know both of our new books really deal with that. And I think that when we look at the great replacement theory and the New York times just did brilliant, essential to. Uh, by Nicholas con confess story on Tucker Carlson and looked at 1100 hours over 1100 hours of his Fox news show.

And to really in a very objective way, just, just sort of just the facts, distilling the kind of hatred and misinformation and racism and antisemitism and xenophobia. Islamophobia, uh, queer phobia that, that, uh, Fox news spreads, but also specifically Tucker Carlson. That’s the number one rated cable nightly news show in the nation.

Um, so it’s immediate routes are yes. That kind of ecosystem that is sort of normally. Replacement theory. We think about 2017 in Charlottesville. And they’re saying that the Jews will not replace us. And so much of this is connected to a toxic stew of nativism and white supremacy. That is anti-Semitic.

That is anti-black. Uh, that is anti. Uh, uh, multicultural and multiracial democracy. But I think where we need to go back to is, is what, you know, both, both Abraham Lincoln, Frederick Douglas, but Eric Foner has called the second American founding, which is the aftermath of the civil war from 1861 to 1865.

And the reconstruction amendments that come out of that civil war, the end of racial slavery, birthrights citizens. And, and voting rights for black men, which eventually become voting rights really for, for all people, all citizens. W during that. And I, you know, I argue in the third reconstruction that that reconstruction period is actually a little more than three decades.

So I go beyond the presidential reconstruction configuration of 1865 to 1877 and go from 1865 all the way to the November 8th, ninth, 10th, uh, white riot in Wilmington, North Carolina. That’s the first successful. Uh, racist coup in the United States that displaces a biracial interracial government with white supremacists, including some who are mentored by Benjamin Pitchfork Tillman, the South Carolina, ultra racist, ultra white nationalist.

And so when we think about that period, that’s where we see the. Real, um, replacement theory, uh, in, in a modern form because we’re the United States is much similar to the way it was in 1865, then 16, 19 16, 19. It’s a. Um, sort of theoretical framework. And we’re thinking about the New York times Pulitzer prize winning project 16, 19 project, but we are institutions, even our landscapes, some of which has had to be rebuilt as you know, Jeremy in the aftermath of the civil war.

We’re thinking about Richmond. We’re thinking by Atlanta, we’re thinking about parts of Gettysburg, right. That, that are, that are destroyed during the civil war. And so when we think about. That period. That’s where we get the first period in the aftermath of racial slavery. This fear, not just of labor competition, interracial labor competition, but this fear that black people would replace, um, white people as the, sort of the dominant group, economically, politically, and culturally, and connected to that fear as we’ll see in the 19th century.

Are going to be waves of new immigration. Uh, the Irish, uh, Jewish Italians, um, Catholicism is going to be a fear too. So the first time we had this before you had social media, what you have is cartoonists. You have a minstrel shows even after racial slavery, you have newspapers who are, who are making.

Lies about voter fraud. They’re making up lies about, um, sexual assault against white women, committed by black men. Uh, they’re making up lies about corruption and all that is to provide justification for the violence that’s coming. The policy violence to legal violence, legislative violence, but, but first and foremost, the physical violence.

So we’ve, we’ve been here before and I would argue the period of time we’re in is much closer to. To that first reconstruction, then the civil rights period that we, we usually think of as analogous, 

Jeremi: that’s very compelling. And I think it provides an important historical context for, as you said so well, Peniel some of the institutional and attitudinal, um, experiences that have not gone away that are still layered into our society, but, but why has it gotten worse?

In the last decade or so w why, why after the election of an African-American president and the, the development of a high-tech economy and, um, the wealth creation of the last, uh, two decades, why is it that we’ve gone back in a sense to this old history? 

Dr. Peniel Joseph: Well, some of it has to do with the declining.

Validity of just sort of a national story that we can tell ourselves in a way, um, the Obama election. Uh, quite ironically concludes, um, a 50 year racial justice consensus in American history. So we can start it June 11th, 1963, with John F Kennedy’s, uh, race speech on national television supporting civil rights all the way up to the June 25th, 2013.

Shelby V holder decision. Which really destroys the voting rights act by ending section five pre-clearance and you see in the last nine years of spate of really successful voter suppression, I would argue that the main reason Hillary rotten. Uh, is not president of the United States and did not become the first female president was because of Shelby V holder.

It wasn’t, uh, I think that Russian collusion, I think that, um, um, what was going on with the emails and comi all that impacted sexism, but I would argue that Hillary became the first Democrat to run. In the post voting rights era and the post racial consensus era, and she lost, she lost part of the reason why her black vote diminished in comparison to Obama’s vote was not something as simple as she wasn’t a good candidate or she wasn’t quite charismatic, or even the super predator comment of decades before there were new institutional barriers that prevented Hillary Clinton from winning.

From winning Pennsylvania from winning Michigan, from winning a Wisconsin in the manner that Barack Obama had won those states in 2008, quite convincingly, but in 2012 required real organizing and the Obama running in 2012 for real life. That’s the only national election where African-American voter turnout exceeds white vulnerable voter turnout in American history, 66% to 64%.

Right. So part of what’s happened in the last decade I would argue is that we’re living in a post racial justice consensus, uh, period. And so we’ve seen social media and the amplification of hate speech fill in a new story. About America and a new civic discourse. That’s really a divisive. That’s really driven by fear, anxiety, misinformation, and yes, racism and antisemitism and this great replacement theory.

And so part of this. Economic inequality since the great recession has exacerbated. So the rich and the wealthy and the powerful have become even more rich, have become more wealthy and more powerful within that paradigm though, we’ve seen certain elites were thinking about JD Vance, mimic odds who are running for office as, as Trumpers who tell.

Poor whites, the white working class, but really whites from all strata that the enemy is a fifth column within, uh, which is, uh, blacks and really Jews. And, um, at times Muslims, at times, queer people, um, and that kind of misinformation and disinformation spread on such a wide level and amplified again by Fox news.

But also it’s not just Fox news. It’s Fox. It’s the American legislation, legislative exchange council. Um, it’s it’s different political action committees. It’s the entire, at this point, Republican party, there’s a feedback loop that’s been created the top down. Does the anti CRT legislation of Rick dissent.

And what’s happened with the new Virginia governor. The bottom up though, are these hate groups and we’ve seen them, the Boogaloo boys. We’ve seen these different hate groups. Um, Kyle Rittenhouse, uh, now this young shooter here, but we saw Dylan roof in Charlotte. And one thing we can’t forget, Jeremy is the hate crime in Orlando.

Uh, that killed 49 people, mostly LGBTQ, uh, the hate crime in El Paso, um, that killed, uh, over 23 people. Um, and also the hate crime in Atlanta that targeted Asian-Americans that killed eight people, six of Asian descent and the rise in AAPI. So part of what we’re seeing. Is this? Yes, it’s this anti-black racist narrative, but the great replacement theory is about white supremacy.

That really represents an existential threat to our entire system. And right now we don’t have any. We’re on the defensive Jeremy, we don’t have, we don’t have institutions that are able to say, we think about Joe McCarthy in the 1950s. And the idea of have you no shame, sir. And getting McCarthy out of the picture, we don’t have that right now because we were living in a post consensus American society, and we need a new consensus, um, in our.

Zachary: You mentioned 

Kyle Rittenhouse and the two terrorists at Buffalo and char and, uh, Charleston. Uh, why do you think so many of these shooters, these white supremacists are, are 18 year old, young men. Why do you think so many of them are so young if this is really drawing from a historical narrative of white suburban.

Dr. Peniel Joseph: Well, I think that white supremacy always refreshes itself. Zack. And I think that, uh, one of the things we see is that this idea of male culture and masculinity, and sometimes we have, uh, different right wing commentators who say, well, the problem is that, you know, because of queer people, because of feminism, men don’t know what it means to be men, but their vision of men.

Is toxic, it’s sexist, it’s often racist. Uh, it promotes rape culture and sexual assault. And so you have these young men who are really utterly lost and mystified over what their place in society is going to be. Um, these are young men who, who not necessarily received a great critical, uh, public school education.

Uh, these are young men who are looking for validation. And they become part of these silos, these communities, online communities, gaming communities, chat communities, four Chan communities that tell them that, um, you know, black people and brown people and Jews are the problem. And if we could just get rid of those folks violently, um, things would be better, right?

That tells people that the, the shooter in the tree of life and the shooter, uh, in Charleston, our heroes. Right. And these different white supremacists. Put down these manifestos and this latest shooter, uh, has a manifesto of his own as well. So part of this is there’s a crisis of masculinity in the country and a crisis of identity, but that crisis of masculinity is not a crisis that somehow men have gotten too soft.

It’s a crisis that, uh, we think about de-industrialization we think about rampant, any quality, and there’s no way for. Uh, these young men to express their feelings and their vulnerability, uh, to seek at times. Uh, for physical wellness and mental health as well. Right? Uh, these are folks who need counseling, who need help, who need a lot of love, frankly, need a lot of, um, empathy, uh, before they go out on these, these murder sprees.

Uh, and there are signs, there were signs for this young man. When people look at the threats he made at his school threats, he different behavior that he exhibited. So I do think that. Sometimes we thought to ourselves after 2008, that because of Barack Obama, that was the only lesson a whole new generation of young whites were going to receive.

Part of that was true. There, there is a group of young whites, um, young, young people all across the country who imbibed Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, the first family. And. Uh, real advocates of multiracial democracy. And we shouldn’t forget that some of that we could see during the 2020 election when Biden gets 81 million votes to 74 million, but we still have to focus as well on the 74 million.

So the 81 million, that’s a great story, but the 74 million Trump gets 11 more million votes running as an overt white supremacist. You know, that’s got to give us all pause that’s to give us all pause, because even if we say we’re never going to depict. Uh, racism, uh, defeat antisemitism, defeat hate, uh, 100%.

We can’t have it be such a powerful and muscular and robust part of our demand.

Zachary: Right. It’s interesting also that many of the same technologies that have radicalized. So many of these young men have also connected people across the country who share an interest in multiracial democracy and share, uh, a dream of a more inclusive future.

To what extent do you think that these new technologies are fueling this, uh, this outburst of white supremacy, this, this recurring recurring. 

Dr. Peniel Joseph: Well, I think the new technologies are, and Zach, you said it very well. I mean, they’re, they’re fueling both proponents of multiracial democracy and reconstruction, and they’re fueling these advocates of redemption, redemption, ism, and white supremacy.

Um, on some levels, I think that they are amplifying what is already. But I would say that simultaneously now, because social media and technology has become all encompassing. It’s become an extension of ourselves in very, very dangerous ways. I would say that they’re also creating new white supremacists and they’re creating hate.

Now they’re connected to a feedback loop of, again, one major political party. In this case, the Republican party, they’re connected to feedback loop of think tanks. They’re connected to feedback. Of podcasters who are, who are, uh, who promote racist ideas and misinformation. I’m thinking of Joe Rogan as one of the most popular.

So they’re connected to all of these things and in a way, these young white male. Teenagers are sort of the tip of the spear of white supremacy, right? They can be, they can be they’re, they’re sort of both disposable and they can be valorized. Sometimes they get off, like in the case of Kyle Rittenhouse.

Um, but even when they don’t, as in the case of Dylan roof, who’s been sentenced to death. And I suspect as in this case of the Buffalo, They are valorized as sort of these icons of white supremacy and, and, and fighting for this white nationalist, uh, this ethno nationalist. 

Jeremi: So, this is what makes the issue so difficult.

Peniel right. Is that the, the spaces that provide free speech for those who are progressive activists, for those who want to defend a multiracial democracy, those spaces are also highly. As, as they were in the 19th century, uh, by, uh, individuals who want to encourage hate, who wants to spread lies and, and want to undermine, uh, the standing and the, the safety of, of other people in our society.

How do we, how do we address that? How do we address these, these spaces that are being hijacked in these. 

Dr. Peniel Joseph: I think one thing that we need to do, and this is really tough in a Congress that’s so divided is really have safeguards for all social media platforms. Meaning that the reason, one of the reasons why we don’t curb hate speech, whether this is on Facebook.

Twitch or YouTube is because we don’t have real rules of the road. Congress doesn’t understand it. Uh, the tech giants are in quotes, policing themselves, and really the common denominator here is people want viewers and people want advertising and people want to make as much money as possible. So we think about platforms like Twitter, which has.

Uh, countless numbers of, of bots on Twitter masking is real people. Same with Facebook, same with most of these platforms. And what are, what are these bots doing? Some of these bots. Or just advertising bots. Some of them are malicious. Some of these bots are from Russia and overseas, right? So part of this is getting our own house in order.

And yes, technology is always ahead of legislation and public policy and congressional hearings, but we have. So behind we are in the prehistoric ages for the rules of the road, for the internet at the federal level, at the same time, local communities have to act as well. Uh, one of the things we had an event, um, recently about this, uh, at the LBJ school, and we talked about.

Um, coming together as a community, uh, in ways where we go beyond our silos. So we’re talking about, you know, the ADL Anti-Defamation league was there. Um, we had the interfaith interfaith action council of Texas was there. Uh, we had scholars and community organizers. We had Imani there. We had a whole sort of rainbow coalition.

Of of service oriented leaders in Austin. And part of is that we have to go beyond the silos and speak to each other and speak to communities. That at times are not necessarily receptive to the idea of multiracial democracy, but find common ground with those communities. Because really what we’re seeing right now is an existential threat to American democracy in the form of, uh, anti-Semitism, uh, racist, violence, um, economic inequality, but then legislation.

At the UN on one hand exacerbates this voter sipper, uh, voter suppression, anti, uh, critical race theory. Uh, you can’t teach black history in public schools, uh, anymore the criminal justice system needs to be reformed. On the one hand, you’ve got these repressive policies and then through social media, you have disinformation and misinformation where the entire country can’t even agree on what happened January 6th, 2021.

When the capital us Capitol was assaulted with, uh, uh, folks who had racist signs, antisemitic signs, I mean, this is, this is a huge tragedy and travesty, but in the past, we would have had bipartisan support. To weed this out of our democracy. Uh, instead we’ve got misinformation and lies saying that those folks in January six were heroes, that it was BLM who did it and not Magna folks.

Um, so we’re, we’re in real trouble. And until we can come up and sort of get our national stories, Right. Come up with a new consensus. We’re going to be at pains to then have a strategy of how do we deconstruct all this hatred. That’s being weaponized for political gain economic gain, but also in terms of violence and privilege.

Jeremi: So, 

so how do we build a consensus like this? You you’ve studied this in other periods. Um, and so what can we as historians take from the past, for today for building consensus? Because quite frankly, it seems so difficult. Peniel, I mean, you, you, you, you witnessed this as, as all of us do, right? Um, there are people coming to, uh, even a relatively progressive city, like Austin.

To town and, uh, spreading anti-Semitic stickers on playgrounds and, uh, protesting and saying that, uh, Jews have caused COVID. Uh, a young man tried to burn down our synagogue, uh, in our neighborhood motivated by this. And you have people shouting that Asians are responsible for COVID as well. Uh, all the anti-Semitic.

Uh, and auntie African-American and anti brown people’s statements and supportive often police brutality. Uh, this is within our city, right? Uh, how does one build consensus even in a place like Austin? 

Dr. Peniel Joseph: I think at university of Texas, we have to be at the center of this conversation. Uh, we’re really the most high profile.

Um, entity and we can bring together the synagogues, the mosques, the churches, uh, we can bring together the nonprofits, but we can also bring together the activist and the business community and the entrepreneurs and the venture capitalists, um, as, as, as you. And I both know, um, I think we have to get people to have skin in the game.

Um, and invest in stopping hate and invest in bringing people together, uh, in a way that’s institutionalized. That goes beyond reacting when these things inevitably inevitably happen. So the only way we can sort of build that beloved community in Austin is we have to get our own house in order. And as you know, we have inequality here.

We have racial segregation here. Uh, we’ve got, um, uh, You know, antisemitism here and racism here. So I think we. We can model, um, the, the framework that is needed nationally. Um, but we have to come together, uh, in ways that are innovative and impactful, um, in perpetuity. Right? And so that’s going to require investments.

And I think the reason why university of Texas is so important is that it brings. Texas sports, Texas football, Texas innovation, uh, Texas, the LBJ school, the policy school, the law school, the medical school. It brings people together. So we have to be at the forefront of creating that common identity and that common story about bringing people together.

Here in Austin and the wider state of Texas. And if we can do that, we’re going to be a national model. Because as you know, Texas is really one of the most multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic, multilingual states in the country, you know? So when we say what happens here, changes the world we’re we’re right.

Um, but Texas should be at the lead of this, right. We should be at the lead of building that beloved community and making sure something like this never happened. 

Jeremi: That’s so very well said. Peniel and I know you have to go to your next engagement. We really appreciate your, your sharing, your historical insights and contemporary, uh, perspective, uh, with us and for giving us those inspiring words.

Uh, thank you. 

Dr. Peniel Joseph: Well, thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, Zach. 

Zachary: Thank you,

Jeremi: Zachary. Um, I, I know as a, as a young person, um, who struggles with these issues who looks out at this world, uh, as described so well by Peniel and sees all these challenges, all these existential threats to an inclusive. Democratic society. I know you think a lot about these issues.

How can we, um, build the kind of consensus that penniless talking about? How can we do that better among young people? And I don’t just mean within your school, but I mean, across, uh, different schools and different backgrounds, how can we bring young people together with some kind of consensus that moves us forward toward a multiracial democracy as Panella and Korea?

Zachary: I 

think that’s one thing that we maybe, maybe didn’t emphasize enough in our earlier conversation is that I think there is to a certain extent, at least among a large group of young people, a sort of consensus already on these issues. I don’t think there are very many young people who would challenge the historical facts, the historical truths about January 6th or white supremacy in our society.

I think that the, the diff the more difficult part is to get those people politically engaged. And to not just build a coalition of minds, but a coalition of political and governmental thinkers on this issue. And to make sure that people take those values that hopefully they’re getting from the internet.

Hopefully those are the values that are taking as. And put them into practice, um, and, and not just make them empty words. Uh, so I think we need a new culture of public service and public engagement. And I think we need to encourage young people to, to pursue those kinds of careers, those kinds of positions, uh, from a young, from a young age and, and, and, and view them as something noble and, and.

Jeremi: Right. So it’s not just, um, hearing the ideas. It’s actually beginning to put them in practice at a very young age. Right. 

Zachary: And that itself builds further coalition and changes minds. Right? 

Jeremi: Right. Well, I think this has been a really, um, insightful. Provocative and eye opening conversation. And, um, I want to thank Peniel again for joining us.

Uh, Zachary. I want to thank you for your poem and for your insights and questions. Uh, and thank you most of all to our listeners. Uh, I know so many of us are struggling today to make sense of the whirlwind of change and violence around us and working hard to try to make our democracy more inclusive and, um, more viable.

And a safer place for so many of us. And, uh, I appreciate everyone joining us in this conversation. I think this conversation in many, like it are essential steps forward for our democracy today. Thank you for joining. For this episode of this is democracy

This podcast is produced by the liberal arts its development studio in the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The 

music in 

this episode does written and recorded by stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this as democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

See you next time. .