This is Democracy – Episode 189: Reforming American Democracy

This is Democracy – Episode 189: Reforming American Democracy
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This is democracy, a podcast about the

people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship,

about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

[00:00:24] Jeremi: Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy.

This week is a real treat for us. Uh, we’ve had many, uh, fantastically interesting and influential people on our podcast. And today we have one of the most interesting people I think in our world today. Uh, this is a former Congressman will Hurd will as a former CIA. Cybersecurity executive and an elected member of Congress from the 23rd congressional district in Texas, a region that stretches, uh, believe it or not all the way from San Antonio to El Paso along the us Mexican border.

He represented that district for six years from 2015 to 2021. And in addition to all of those achievements, uh, Congressman Hurd has written a brand new book, uh, that I highly recommend to everyone, uh, American reboot and idealist’s guide to getting big. Done Congressman Hurd. Thank you for joining

[00:01:17] Will: us.

It’s a pleasure to be on. I appreciate you having me. We’re delighted

[00:01:21] Jeremi: to have you. Um, before we turn to our discussion, uh, with Congressman heard about his book and his insights into our democracy today, we have, of course, as always our scene setting poem for Mr. Zachary Siri, what’s the title of your poem?

Today’s. Aren’t

[00:01:36] Zachary: we hollow enough.

[00:01:39] Jeremi: Let’s hear it.

[00:01:41] Zachary: You sat there on a heap of dust to you. It was a pile of your greatest treasures. The words you had found Hollywood us to be taught. And imposing you sat there facing north by Northwest chased down by a crop duster in Iowa. I held your hand because at the very least it matters how we choose to treat our enemies.

You sat there on a heap of your own dust. It wants to blow away. It is blowing away because even the highest words are light and blow away. You sat there waiting for an answer. I think you expected it to come from me, but I just held you in my arms. Like an infant. You were discovering your own hands and eyes and ears.

You sat there on that heap of dust for you. It was a mark of all the things you held against me, all the knives you held carelessly to my throat. And yet you sat at last above. On top of it all you asked me to tell you what you had missed, what you had lost, whom you had left behind. And I asked you haven’t you forgotten to be human?

[00:03:01] Jeremi: I love, I love that poem. Zachary, what is your poem about? My poem is about the

[00:03:06] Zachary: dehumanization of politics in our country. The ways in which technology and, and new forms of entertainment and news are, are separating us from what we perceive as our political enemies, people who on the surface seem to disagree with us and be opposed to us on everything, but really have so much more in common.

[00:03:26] Will: Amen. Amen brother. Um, I agree with that. That was awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you.

[00:03:33] Jeremi: Uh, Congressman Hurd. I think that’s a perfect segue into your book. W why did you write this book and tell us about the, the idealism that shines through in your analysis in this

[00:03:43] Will: book? I appreciate it. And please call me, call me we’ll.

Um, it was. My dad always taught me to have a PMA, a positive mental attitude and what was, what was great. You know, my parents met in California, moved to south Texas to San Antonio in 19 70, 19 70. Um, and I moved in 1971. They had gotten married in 1970. And, uh, even at that time in south Texas, um, you know, my parents couldn’t buy any house they wanted to because they didn’t want to sell to.

To a, a interracial couple. My dad’s black, my mom’s white. They, my dad couldn’t, you know, stay at every hotel in some of the places that he crisscrossed, some of those places in the district that I ultimately represented. And it, and it’s fascinating that, you know, a couple of decades later that area is represented by their son.

Right. And so, so look, we we’ve had historically a lot of problems in America, uh, but it’s also provided an opportunity for, for so many people to. Um, to, to have an impact, not just on our communities, but, but the world and, and, and I’ve, I’ve benefited from that. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve enjoyed and been excited to serve my country.

I’ve seen the role America plays in the rest of the world. And, um, you know, like, like in, in, in, in Zachary’s poem, the reality is, is what I saw when I crisscross these 29. You know, my district was 29 counties, two times. My gosh, you’ve been 25 miles of the border. Um, took 10 and a half hours. A driver crossed it right at 80 miles an hour, which was literally the speed limit in most of the districts.

And the thing that I learned. Whether I was in the colonias outside of El Paso or in the dominion of San Antonio, which is one of the more wealthier areas of town. Um, people talked about the same things, right? And, and I learned, I learned that actually way more unites us than divides us. And for me, we’ve gotten away from that.

We’ve gotten away from our values and I thought I could. And I wanted to write a book about some of these major challenges that we’re having to deal with. I call them generational defining challenges and, you know, help the reader learn, you know, why did I come to some of the conclusions? And, and, and I, and I do that by telling stories, right?

Uh, that, that led to me coming to my, my conclusions. And so that was the point. And, and for me, It’s, you know, it’s, this is a part memoir part guide. And, you know, I, I it’s called an idealist guide to getting big things done because we’re at a moment in time, a political moment, a international moment, a cultural moment where it’s impossible to get big things done and doesn’t have to be that way.

And so, um, I wanted, I was fortunate to be able to put this out.

[00:06:42] Zachary: W, what would you say to those who would say that, that, that it really is impossible to get big things done in our political world today. What are some big things that you think, uh, idealists and, and people like yourself have been able to accomplish?

[00:06:57] Will: Sure look, it’s it’s. That’s a great question, Zachary. And when you look at, when you, when you look at some of the major, let’s start with legislation. When we think in the major piece of legislation that’s ever been passed, it’s always been in a divided government, meaning, um, there was one party in control of, of the, of the legislative branch or part of the legislative branch and a different party in Congress.

So that’s everything from the civil rights act to the clean water act to. The every student succeeds act to the first step act. You know, you go through all these and, and that’s been the case. There’s this notion that the only way to get things done is if one party controls everything and that’s just not, that’s just not, that’s not, it’s actually not a way to be, to be successful in our history.

Um, doesn’t, doesn’t show that. And so for, for me, You know, the, the big things that we need to get done is we need to be prepared to address technology. That’s moving at a pace that is unprecedented. Um, we have to deal with a interconnected world. You asked my man, George Washington said, you know, watch out for, for, for, in entangling alliances.

Right. Uh, but the world’s changed a lot since, since, since George Washington was, that was at the, at the helm. And, and we’re seeing that now. In places like Ukraine and it shows that, uh, when we work together, we can actually, um, uh, protect ourselves against, against, you know, evil people, unlike vitamins, like vitamin Putin.

And so, so they’ll look. Um, I, uh, you know, when I look at slayings that we were able to be successful of like my last piece of legislation, I got signed in the law. It was a national strategy to deal with artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is a complicated issue. It had in, in, in government speak multi-age jurisdictional issues.

So like seven committees had to look at that that meant seven, um, committed shares that had an opinion. And the fact that we were able to get something. Um, like that done, the, every student succeeds act, you know, was delivered, uh, under president Obama, uh, by a Republican house. Right. You know, nobody would, would have, have expected that.

And so, so for me, I, I think there are some examples, um, nobody ever clicks. An article that says Congress worked right. And, and so there’s more examples than, than folks would probably realize.

[00:09:29] Jeremi: I think that’s really instructive. Uh, and I do think that during the cold war period, you know, well from your training and your, uh, activities that you described, to some extent in the book with the central intelligence agency, during the cold war, we had a lot of bipartisanship on many foreign policy issues, as well as domestic policy issues, investments in financial aid for students.

And they helped put me through college. Probably I’ll put you through college will as well. So we can do this. What stands in the way right now? Why do, why do our politics seem so unidealistic so ugly. Quite frankly,

[00:10:02] Will: it’s driven, it’s a structural issue and, and the structural issue. It goes down to our primary system right now.

Look, I, I am fine with having two parties. I think a competition of ideas matters and, and for me, I wrote the. Aliyah, I’m a Republican. Um, but I didn’t write the report, the book for just Republicans. I wrote it for Democrats. I wrote it for independence. I wrote it for people that don’t vote. Um, because these things matter in, in, at the end of the day, both the, the political spectrum is no longer align.

It’s a horrible. And the edges of that horseshoe are closer to one another then to the center and in what happens is in our primaries. Um, you, you have in the house. This is a hard number. 92% of the seats in the house were decided in the primary, only 33 seats last election we’re in essence tossups um, where any party could have won.

And so the rest of them were decided in the primary and the average number of people. So, so the most, the clearest numbers are back in the last non-presidential election, 2018, we’re only 54,000 people on average. Voted in a contested primary. Well, that’s not a lot of people when you take into the general election in that in 2018, it was about 267,000 people.

Very big difference. And so when you’re only, when you only, when you’re the only election that matters is the primary. You only talk to the people that are most likely to vote. And those are the most partisan people in a district. And sometimes it comes out to only 2% of that population. Ma are the people that decide an election.

So. Uh, officials and elected officials only talk to them. So this, this trend is true in the house of representatives. It’s true in state rep races. It’s true in state Senate races. It’s true in city council races, right? And now there’s a whole whole, uh, and I, I go deep into some of this, some of the maps in the book and, and for, for me now, the way you fix, if I had a magic wand, The way you fix it is that you don’t have any district more than plus six and either direction, meaning you don’t have a district that’s more than 56% Republican or 56% Democrat.

Plus six means that it, in my opinion, it’s a jump ball and anybody can win in that seat. And so the, that would force, um, you would, you have to appeal. To a broader group of people rather than the most partisan folks. Right? So that, that would be, if I had a magic wand now I don’t have a magic wand and trying to get off it these days to do that, you know, anytime soon it’s going to be difficult.

So what’s the other option. The other option is get more people to vote in primaries is, is, is the simple, is a simple fact. And so, so that’s something that voting is not the pinnacle. As civic engagement, it’s the floor and more people need to be doing that in primary school. So

[00:13:13] Jeremi: this gets at two really important issues that you discuss and that I encourage people to, to read in your book, uh, the issues surrounding gerrymandering and voting rights.

Um, so just to be clear, then you’re advocating for limits on gerrymandering and you’re advocating for more voting rights, not fewer voting rights.

[00:13:32] Will: For sure. The more people to vote the better, right? Like, why are we, why can I, not someone not register online to, to, to vote, you know, if we’re able to pay your property taxes or register your car, you know, there, there’s so many things you can do now, um, online, you should be able to do that.

Heck I, I would even be supportive of voting online. Um, if Astonia can do it right when a Stonier is worried about not only are they worried about. Physical threat of the Russians, trying to invade them. They’re also constantly being bombarded by the Russian that’s, their neighbors and the Russians, basically in, in 2004, um, brought the entire country to its knees for, for a number of days.

And so if they can do that under that level of threat, um, the most sophisticated country in the world should be, should be able, should be able to do that. And so, yeah, so increase, make it easier, more people. Uh, the better off we’re going to be and look at at some point, right. You know, the, the, the phrase gerrymandering, I, we, we have to agree on what principle should be designed to.

It should be the overarching principle design, these districts. Right. And right now, you know, the, the logic is. It’s neighborhoods or geographic score, you know, uh, some kind of, you know, uh, a geo geometric object that we can identify. Well, you know, I think it should be based on making the seeds more.

[00:15:01] Jeremi: That sounds so, uh, powerful to me.

And I have to say one of the things I admire about your book is you speak very frankly about issues like this immigration, many other issues and, and your positions don’t line up, certainly with the Republican party in all cases. No. Do they line up with the democratic party? I mean, you’re making you’re, you’re, you’re making what seemed to me to be very sensible.

If we might even say this. Centrist arguments. Uh, why is it so hard to convince let’s start with your party. Why is it so hard to convince Republicans in Texas, for example, to adopt what you just suggested, which seems so overwhelmingly.

[00:15:36] Will: So, so I would say when it comes to redistricting and voting rights, and those are things, those issues, it’s more about incumbent protection because I can make the same arguments about the problems in Texas.

I can make those same arguments in a place like Illinois, um, by the same place, like New York state. Right. Um, and, and you might have better perspective on some of the changes that happened in California. Has that allowed, um, has that made. Um, districts, you know, they, they have the, you know, um, open primaries and the top to go, go to the primary.

I don’t know. Uh, you know, what the analysis of has that made things better? Um, I, I would say the, the one thing that I think continues to allow Texas to grow have great economic strength and having people from all over the country still move here is, is we it’s it’s we have one party rule. At the state level, but there is still, most of the major cities are run by the, by by Democrats.

So you have a Republican statewide, you have democratic local officials. And so there is a, a competition, right? There is a multi-party system at play here. Um, it’s just at different levels. Um, I don’t think you necessarily have that in a place like California. And so, you know, one of the questions is why are so many people leaving California?

Um, and again, I, I don’t know. I don’t know the answers to that. So your question was why is it hard to get some people in Texas who agree with this because they want to keep their jobs. Well, they, you know, you know, people in power want to stay in power and they don’t want to make it easier for someone to, to, to get, to get thrown out.

Right. And I used to always tell, I used to always tell my colleagues or people run in or new folks in Congress and be like, don’t be afraid of your constituents. Right. And oftentimes that is it’s, it’s always wild. You know, I, I set records for the number of town hall. That were, that were held. It was funny one year, um, Democrats were hounding Republicans for not doing town halls and there was.

Uh, a democratic political group that was keeping track and they always got so pissed because I was at the top of their list, the most of the most towels by like a mile. Right. And, and so don’t be afraid of your constituents. And, and I was lucky that I’m glad I represented a 50 50 district because no matter what I did, half the district was upset with me, but that caused me to explain to people what I’m doing and why I’m.

And, and so I think it’s really comes down to something that basic at, at the, at the, at the end of the day, a lot of these folks are lazy and they don’t want to put the level of work and effort in that’s required, um, to, um, to have that connection with the district.

[00:18:23] Zachary: Congressman, if I may, I’d like to respectfully, uh, challenge you a little bit on this issue, just because, uh, as someone who will be voting in 2022, I find it a little hard to understand how our state can just be one of many.

Protecting incumbents. When, for example, my sister who goes to college at the state of Wisconsin, uh, has to register months in advance to vote by mail. Doesn’t never got her ballot for the primary. And if she lived in Wisconsin, she could register day of, and I’m not allowed to vote in the primary for the election that I’m going to be voting in in November.

So I’m just wondering, uh, how those reflect those same trends. You’ve talked about. When to me, the fact that I live currently in a district that stretches all the way from Austin to Houston. And it’s represented by a Republican, despite my community being almost entirely Democrat. I find that hard to stomach if, if that’s okay.

[00:19:23] Will: It’s okay. Look, I appreciate, I appreciate the, the, the, the, the sentiment, right? But you don’t live in an area that has 700,000 people that are just like. Right. Like at the end of the day, you have to, you know, you, you, the, the, the way our system is designed is to have 435 people representing the entire country.

And so the first organizing principle is based on, um, divide the population. That’s why we have, uh, a census every 10 years and divide that by 435. And that’s how many people, uh, somebody represents. And so it was, you know, in the house, the people’s house, It was designed to be the entity, most responsive to the people.

And so that’s why you reset it every, every decade. And so, so yeah, Y your community, your neighborhood, your street, all that may be more aligned, but, um, you know, where are, you know, look so, so should one person. Uh, represents Austin. Okay. Like that that’s one way to do it, but I still don’t. If that were to happen, I would still say I would rather have a district that wasn’t overwhelming in one way or another, because guess what?

If that, if all of Austin and let’s say, I don’t know the numbers of what Austin is, let me use, let me use an even better example that. Here in San Antonio, there’s five members that represent San Antonio. One district is heavily Republican one D another district is heavily Democrat. The Republican never has to talk to Democrats and the Democrat never has talked to Republican.

So guess what you think those folks are working towards trying to solve real problems for everybody, even when they may not agree with each other 100% of the time. Absolutely not. But when you had the two other districts that were more competitive, we were the ones that were constantly trying to work together to solve real problems.

So. Um, so, so for me, um, that’s the, that’s the overriding overriding principle. And, and look, if you don’t like the person that’s representing you, right. Um, you know, that’s where, uh, if only if only 60,000 people are going to likely vote. And in that primary there’s a lot you can do to try to overthrow that person.

And I certainly

[00:21:37] Jeremi: think you’re right. Uh, will that, uh, competitive districts, like the one you represented do tend to produce, uh, representatives like yourself who have to work across party lines because you you’re always concerned about appealing to people on the other side, you have to, uh, when they, when they go out to vote on that issue, I wanted to, to move us to another topic that you speak a very thoughtfully and compellingly about in the book.

Uh, that’s the protection of our democracy and you, and you, I think very courageously, um, separate yourself from some of the Trump movement. Uh, and you talk very, I think forthrightly about the, the horrible events of January 6th, 2021, the insurrection at the Capitol and president Trump’s role, at least in, uh, encouraging some of that behavior.

Um, what do you think we should do now as a democracy to respond? Many, many of our listeners are concerned about the future, um, security of our democracy at home, not just abroad with regard to flat Amir Putin, but also at home. Uh, what, what do you think we should be doing as a society that we’re not doing right now?

[00:22:44] Will: Well, it starts with look. Uh, so, so I’ve been clear about my opinions on what happened at January six and, and, and what is, what is shocking to me is I think about. All the 22, 23 year old kids that were on their third or fourth day at work. And they were hiding in the closet or under their desk worried that someone’s going to drag them and beat them and beat them to a bloody pole.

Some of my students,

[00:23:06] Jeremi: somewhere, my students. Yeah,

[00:23:08] Will: look, I, I, I get it. I had some staffers that are still having to deal with that right now. Now the, the problem with all of this is that, you know, you cannot legitimize the use of political violence. Right. And, and what, what, what undergirded all of this and what undergrad old ultimately was a number of elected officials lying to the electorate over time to foments, um, to, to, to foment fees.

Right. In order to, to, to gain gain clicks, to get more views of their new segments, all of that. And

[00:23:46] Jeremi: you included, you include former president Trump

[00:23:48] Will: in that cat. Of course. Yeah. Look, he, he insighted, he incited of the crowd and, and, and there was lies, there was lies, you know, for, for a number of years. Right.

Um, but th th the, the other problem is there has been a lack of trust. In all of our institutions to be a, and when I say institutions, I’m talking, not just federal government, it’s state governments, local government, it’s academia. It’s the media, it’s the scientific community. Um, one of the few into one of the few industries that still have any kind of trust from the electorate is some businesses.

And part of it is because they have to deliver a good or service. And if not, Right. And, and so, so for me, it’s this, this erosion of trust in these institutions, and it starts with people in all these institutions lacking ideological consistency. And so when, when the media is being perceived as bias and either direction, right.

When, um, they, they talk about one thing versus the other, when look, one of the things I always like, look, I’m critical of my own party because it’s. It’s my party, right? Like I’m going to, I’m going to be critical with the people that I know the best. Right. Um, and so, so th this is one of those things that we, that, that this, this lack of trust and institutions up and down, and the only way you re repair.

All right, is to, is to improve people’s faith in what you’re doing. And you improve people’s face faith by showing up and by being consistent, when, when a situation benefits you or potentially won’t benefit you. And so, so, and the only way you can, you can repair that is over time, but we’ve also had forgotten about some of these underlying issues that make democracy work.

Everybody assumed. Of course democracy is going to stay around, right? Democracy is a fait accompli. Why is it called in American experiment? You know, this probably better than most, and probably teach this. We recalled an experiment because when we were started, normally there was no other democracy around there had been examples in history, but at the time it was in the research for this book.

I found out that the next democracy wasn’t until 60 years later and it was. And there’s only 14 democracies that are over a hundred. Most people assume that this is, of course, this is what the case, right? Most people assume America is going to be a superpower because through all of this, there’s, nobody is living today who has seen us a world where America wasn’t the superpower.

And, and, and, and that is why we got to articulate why these things matter. And we got to bring it home to people. We got to bring home. Majority rules with minority rights, right? The majority is not supposed to be allowed to have a authoritarian government. You have separation of powers. If you truly believe about a federated system that has local control, then you can’t try to use cert powers.

At at the local level. Right. And so, so, and, and, and I’m going on a little long and I apologize, oh no, no, this is helpful. But, but, but to me, I, you know, I remember having, I, I tell this, I tell some CIA stories in the book and I, I go into a story of how I ended up in the CIA and it started because I added international studies as a minor.

And the first class I took in international studies, the first lesson was on the rule of law. And I might like 18 year old me is like the rule of law. Of course, there’s rule of law. This is a dumb class. Like, this is what I’m learning. You know, I was an engineering major and I’m like, this is, this is what liberal arts majors are talking about.

Rule of law courses were like, like I thought I, to me, it was so like, it was, seemed so basic until I lived in a place that didn’t have. And I realized how important rule of law was. Right. And so, so we have to, we have to, uh, articulate why these things matter. Um, and we had to do a better job for those of us that, that care or know about this stuff.

[00:28:03] Jeremi: Well, and it seems to me, and I found this very compelling in your book wheel. It seems to me that we also have to be willing. Talk truth to power. Sometimes we have to act with integrity. We have to be honest, right? People don’t trust many of the organizations you identified because they don’t think the people running them are honest.

I think that people running them are only out for themselves and self-interest has always been there, but it does strike. In in line with rule of law, there has been a sense for a long time that, uh, serving, especially in the public is, is a job of public trust. No one has a right to it. And, um, one should hold oneself and hold one’s colleagues to the.

Levels of honesty. I think Senator Mitt Romney said this, uh, during the discussions about the certification of the election, right? People will trust the election. If you tell them the truth, stop telling them lies. Uh, how can we get officials, uh, elected to office, uh, who will continue to tell the truth?

How can we encourage our parties, your party, and the other party to be more attentive to the.

[00:29:08] Will: Well, it’s it’s, the electric has to demand it. Right? And, and it goes back to this notion that when you look at the people that actually vote in general elections, but don’t vote in primaries. Those are the ones that are looking for those things, right?

That the people that are worried about putting food on their table, a roof over their head and making sure that people they love are healthy, happy, and safe. You know, they’re not following politics, like sporting events. Right. And, and so it also requires for those to that, that, um, care about these things, are they rewarding the behavior they want to see.

And, and I always tell folks is like, okay, Um, have you, yeah. Start with your local area. Right? Do you know some of your local officials and is there somebody that you like and get behind and help that person, whether it’s not doors, right. A check phone bank for them, right. Like there’s so many ways to get involved and that seemed, you know, look, it’s hard.

Right? Winning elections is hard. And so, and, but then you don’t have to just do it in your community. You are you sharing stuff on social media that when people, and it may not be from your tribe, are you sharing that to be like, Hey, that was a good comment. I agree with that. Right. Again, we got to reward the behavior that we want to see.

Um, I always joke and say my social media presence would be 10 X, what it is now, if I said crazy things, Right, but I don’t say, I don’t say crazy. I’m not going to say crazy things. And so, so look, I wish there, I wish I had, you know, an eight point plan to be like, this is how we get people that are a little bit more truthful, but here’s what, here’s what I found when Pete like, uh, elected officials are best from the world.

That one. And that’s following a trend. And so nobody wants to be first. Nobody wants to be second, but people are going to fight each other to be third and fourth. And so if, if, if some people win this way, right, by being honest and get rewarded, then you’re gonna start seeing other people, um, being that same way.

And it starts with people holding their own folks accountable. Right. And it’s easy to cast stones at the other side. But are you willing to hold the people that you like and that wear your same Jersey? Are you willing to hold them accountable? And I think that’s where a lot of this stuff starts.

[00:31:31] Jeremi: I think that’s very well said.

And again, you make this point in the book, which I hope everyone will read. Um, it’s our job as citizens to hold people accountable to the principles and ideals we believe in. Even if they’re doing things that benefit us, if they’re not living to those principles and ideals, they shouldn’t be representing us.

I think that’s your message. We’ll write

[00:31:52] Will: 100% is, and, and, and what’s, what’s fascinating. I remember early on when I first ran in, in 2009 and the election that I lost in a runoff by various. Um, my best friend was my, we called him a deputy campaign manager because he was in essence, the campaign manager, but I couldn’t be a first time candidate.

Nobody thought I had a chance with a campaign manager that had zero experience in politics. So we called him the deputy campaign manager to like, act like, okay, there’s probably another camp. There’s probably a campaign manager as a professional. Right. And, and, and we were, we were debating something. I forget what it is now.

And I was like, what should I say? And he got into, he yelled at me and he goes, well, what do you believe? Start with that. We’ll start with what you believe. And then you can work from there. And so for me, you know, I’ve always tried to be clear on what is the value that I believe in and how does that affect my actions?

And, and, and look, I was fortunate to have two. May and think through so many random things. Every look, this is a silly story, but like one of the debates in my office was there was a bill about whether it would to make it illegal, to eat cats or dogs. And I’m like, it’s definitely weird to eat cats and dogs.

But should it be illegal? Right. And what principle is, are you basing that off on? Now? What we found out was it was already illegal to eat cats and dogs, and that this was somebody just stamping their foot to be like, Hey, this is, you know, pandering to, to, to people in their district, but it always goes back to what is the value.

And then are you able to articulate your decision and your behavior off of that? And are you willing to do those. Uh, and when it’s hard, I, I, when I’m in, when I’m at high schools and middle schools, I talk to kids about being a person of character. Yes. I say, being a person, a character. Is it takes practice just like being a musician or, or playing a sport or being a scientist or an engineer.

And the more practice you get, the better you get at it. And the older you get, the consequences of being a person of character are greater, right? Like there are times when you do the right thing and there’s negative consequences, but the more you learn how to do the right thing, the easier it becomes.

Awesome. And so, Um, you know, I’ve been in situations. I was lucky early in my, you know, early in my adult life. To have to make tough decisions that ended up, you know, that were truly life or death. And so to me, that was an experience that made me realize, do the right thing. Um, you know, even if it’s not popular, because you can always hold your head up and I can be proud of.

Uh, when I go home or in my community and say, Hey, I did what I thought was right. Yep.

[00:34:39] Jeremi: Yep. I think that’s such an eloquent statement of a central point for our podcast week after week, which is that democracy does depend upon the content of our character as a people and that our leaders should be in Abraham Lincoln’s words, bringing out the better angels in our nature, not encouraging the worst behaviors.

Uh, Zachary, I know you care deeply about these issues that that will is talked about on the podcast now, and that are in his book. Um, how do you see idealism for your generation coming out? I think that’s a good place for us to close. What, what, how does this speak to you? Because I think Will’s audience is really.

Young people. It’s not people that are his age in my age. We’re about the same age. It’s actually younger people that he’s, that he’s writing for.

[00:35:23] Zachary: So-so I think my generation sort of is definitely dissatisfied with the status quo or politics. And I don’t necessarily think it’s because of the. Extreme nature of our politics.

I think it’s because we can’t seem to get anything done. And so I think the new idealism, I hope that the new idealism of my generation will be a new kind of pragmatism and a new emphasis on actually doing things that impact people’s lives and make a difference. And those could fall anywhere on the political spectrum.

I think we need to focus on our values as Congressman Hurd said, and I think. That we will. I think that the crazy events of the past few years have, if anything, forced us to, to reevaluate what’s important.

[00:36:06] Jeremi: Uh, well, I want to give you the last word.

[00:36:09] Will: Well, it looks at Zachary look at this music to my ears, right?

Cause, cause I call my philosophy pragmatic idealism. Right? How do you help the greatest number of people possible based on the actual situation that you’re currently in, and that is. You know, the, to your point, um, you know, make sure you’re doing things that are actually uplifting humanity, start with that.

And it doesn’t matter what letter you have after your name. If you do that, I think we’re going to be, we’re going to be better off. And, and I think that, um, your generation, the generation younger than you are going to ultimately be demanding that and expecting that from their elected officials. So despite look, things will get worse before they get back.

But I still believe that our best days are still ahead of us and in, and that’s what makes me excited. And that’s why I’m still able to have that PMA, that positive attitude. My dad told me about, uh,

[00:37:09] Jeremi: well, that’s, that’s really a perfect place to close this, this really enlightening discussion and our, uh, discussion of your book, American reboot, which I hope everyone will read.

Uh, you brought together both Ronald Reagan and Franklin rose. There it’s morning in America for you Ronald Reagan. And there’s another chapter in our democracy to be written. Uh, that’s Franklin Roosevelt then, but both of these are embodied in your book and your career. Uh, thank you so much for, for joining us for this discussion.

We’ll I appreciate you and Zachary, thank you for your poem as always. Thank you. Most of all, to our loyal listeners for joining us for this episode of this is democracy.

[00:37:53] Will: This podcast is produced by the liberal arts, its development students and the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris. Codine stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

See you next time.