This is Democracy – Episode 182: Teaching During COVID

This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy.

Today, We’re going to talk about an issue that has animated, uh, many discussions across the country for the last two years. How are teachers coping with all of the challenges of COVID of course, how students are coping is an important issue as well, but we all know that teachers have a particularly important role to play, uh, with children of all ages.

Who are dealing with difficulties that are social and emotional, as well as intellectual and academic, uh, during this period of, uh, repeated challenges in school, closings and concerns about health and various other issues. And we’re fortunate today to have a really extraordinary teacher here in Austin.

Uh, one of Zachary’s teacher. Uh, who’s going to talk to us, uh, about his experiences. The last two years experiences that I’m sure many other teachers around the country, many of you listening have, have shared yourselves. Uh, this is Jason Flowers. Uh, he is entering his 17th year teaching AP us history.

Jason, you’re only 18. So you’ve been doing this since you were like a year of age. Sure exactly. He teaches at the liberal arts and science academy, often known as LASA here in Austin. Uh, and it’s a fantastic school. It’s a public school that public magnet school, uh, like those that exist in many, many cities.

Uh, in addition to teaching AP us history, what they affectionately call a push, uh, Mr. Flowers teaches American film. He coaches Quizbowl and history. He’s originally from south Louisiana has a BA in history from LSU, which has a wonderful history department, uh, along with a master’s degree in social studies education from north Texas.

And, uh, Jason Flowers is a man of many talents, uh, Zachary, and particularly wanted me to mention that, uh, Mr. Flowers likes to ride his road bike around Austin. And he has two cats, Moxie and muffin whom he and his partner, Megan dote upon and apparently have calendars and photos of, uh, throughout the classroom.

Is that, is that correct? Zachary Jason Flowers. Thank you for joining us today. Absolutely. I really appreciate you having me on, and I hope that, uh, you know, I I’m able to share some of these experiences that we’ve gone through since the pandemic started. It’s been, it’s been quite a ride. Uh, you know, I’m sure it has, and I’m so, so happy that you’ve been willing to join us and thank you for all that you do.

And thank you to all the teachers out there who are listening to us and all the work you put in for students every single day, before we turn to our conversation, uh, with, uh, We have, of course Zachary’s scene setting poem, uh, Zachary, what’s the title of your poem for this very special podcast nowadays, nowadays, now, you know, one of your teachers is listening, so you need to do a good job here.

Okay. All right. Let’s see. We have become accustomed nowadays to looking anywhere, but the obvious holes, the months, weeks, days, they were once mere minutes that disappeared between that Halloween and this Valentine’s day between this birthday and that funeral. Yes, they have become years now. I sit down and write about the little rose that I see out of my window.

As it sings alone, I will not write her story. I cannot describe it. How this long year is dying. It never stays dead. We live now in a world that goes around a little rose and as we fly, the neighborhood of heaven stands, but the stars, they are finished with our mistakes and loves long gone the moon, but it’s emptiness still visible in the sky.

We have become accustomed nowadays to looking each other in the eyes from far away to the bitter water that comes out of ancient pipes to the ice, that melts inches from the fragile heart, the memories stuck somewhere in the aortic valve before. And there, if one can see it, the stars and another land when sees surely the myriad pains of 2000 years of hearts there, the memories play with the head of time.

And nevertheless, the little rose thinks about the past there as they scratch and scratch until the clocks bleed, our little roads forgets what the world does with. I love it. Zachary, I can feel the emotion in that. What is your poem about? Well, my poem was really about, uh, well, it comes from me revisiting some words that I wrote actually originally for German class, like a year and a half ago in the middle of when the pandemic was just getting started and trying to frame that with, um, some of the, I think more far reaching, uh, conclusions that, that we might be able to draw at this moment about.

The ways in which the pandemic has changed our sense of time or sense of self or our memories of the past few years, uh, Jason, uh, Zachary is put into words, some of his feelings, what has it been for you? What, how has it felt and how have you experienced this pandemic as, as a veteran teacher? You know, it’s interesting because that, that illusion to our sense of time, it’s crazy to think that.

Really our last normal day of school was March 12th, 2020. So it’s been almost two years. Exactly. And, you know, really on the one hand it seems forever. And on the other hand it seems like it was just yesterday that, you know, we were doing normal things and not wearing masks at school. Uh, so it’s, it’s been crazy.

It’s been a crazy experience. Um, the transition from. Normal school to this really weirdly extended spring break in 2022 virtual teaching for, you know, for almost a year and a half. Uh, it, it was really, it, it was really a lot. Um, and, and I have to admit that I, I don’t know if my experience as a teacher, during the pandemic can stand for a proxy for.

A lot of teachers or most teachers or anything like that, because, you know, and you mentioned in the intro that the liberal arts and science academy LASA, where I teach and have taught for the bulk of my career, it’s a very special school. Um, you know, we’re a, we’re a public magnet school. We draw on students from the entire district here in Austin and we bring in.

Brilliant, wonderful kids. And so our student population is, is not, you know, sort of typical. And so our experience teaching during the pandemic, it’s been, you know, on the one hand of, you know, our students. In a lot of ways stay engaged and, and they did school in a way that was, was meaningful. But at the same time, we experienced a lot of the, a lot of the problems and a lot of the issues that, that other schools and other teachers and students did where, you know, the disconnection from each other, from the teachers, from the classroom, Uh, and the, the really huge pressures of being isolated from their peers and from there, their schools, it, it was, it was a huge challenge and it continues to be, I think, I mean, I, I, I think that, you know, we’re not really approaching anything normal quite yet, and I don’t know that we will for a while.

So I don’t, I don’t know. I, I, I don’t know exactly how much detail you want me to get into about what the experience was like, but, uh, but it’s, it’s been, it’s been quite, quite the ride. So how did, how did the, the pandemic in particular, in those first few, few months of virtual learning change, the way that you approach your teaching and how did it affect the sort of teacher, student relationship?

All right. And so that’s, that’s really. How it affected our teaching. I think for, for me and for my teaching partner, Kim pedigree, who I, I I’ve taught with for years, uh, at loss, uh, and we, we both teach us history. We really had to think a lot about what were the essential things that we had to do in our class.

And. Transition all of those things into a virtual environment. And it really was, was very bad timing for us when the pandemic started, because we were really close to the end of the year, really close to AP exams. And so we were in that final push to get our kids ready. And it was, it was crazy to try to get all of our curriculum into a place where we could, you know, get it to the kids in some sort of efficient manner and also to try to get the kids, those last sort of skills and review things that we needed in order to get them ready for the AP exam.

And then of course we didn’t know what the AP exam would look like, or if it would even exist. And so it was a, it was a huge transition, but we were, we were. Pretty well-prepared. We had already started a lot of the process and, and it was just a matter of getting it all finished and the time that we had so that we could, we could do what we needed to at the end of that year, but how it changed student relationships.

It’s really crazy because. The kids that we taught in that first pandemic year where, you know, we made that transition in March. We knew those kids really well. We, you know, we had been in a classroom with those kids and so it wasn’t as hard because those relations relationships were already built.

Whereas last school year, Where we didn’t know if we were going to be in person or not. And then we, you know, sort of firmly made the decision that we were going to be virtual in the first semester. And then we sort of started coming back to campus, but then really none of our students did, or not very many in the first semester.

And then a few in the second semester with those students, we never were able to build those relationships. In a way that, you know, we would be able to, if we were in person. So I almost feel like an and I hate to say this, that the students that I taught last year, I mean, I barely knew them. So many of the classes.

So many of the, the zoom sessions that we had were just, you know, a whole screen of black boxes with names because we didn’t require the kids to turn cameras on. And so very few of them did. And so I, there are some students I taught last year that I barely know what. And that’s just crazy for me to think about, I think the, the subject matter, the, the history that you teach is, is probably particularly relevant to a student learning virtually or learning in the midst of a pandemic when society seems to be, uh, so, so much in, in ruins in many ways.

Uh, did, did you notice greater student engagement or, or a renewed interest in these issues? Change the way that you felt the topic should be presented or so it’s interesting because I think that student engagement went into very distinct directions. Right? You had a certain subset of kids that, you know, certainly in my class and I think in a lot of their other classes, Just sort of disengaged, right?

And so for a lot of kids, again, that sense of isolation and that sense of not being connected to their peers meant that they really just sort of disengaged with school. Entirely or, or mostly, whereas on the other hand, there was this sort of core set of kids, especially last year that really wanted to engage.

And again, especially with history. And so we had a lot of kids that wanted to stay after class was over, wanted to talk to us, you know, for, for hours in some cases. Right. And so we started last year, especially because the election was coming around and we, we would always spend a lot of time on an election cycle if we were in person.

We started having Friday sessions where, you know, we just invited all of the U S history students to come to these Friday sessions and Kim and I would get together. And, you know, we would let the kids talk about whatever current events they wanted to. We would talk about politics or the election or whatever was happening.

And the engagement with those, those sessions was, it was incredible. And it was, it was one of the best things about teaching last year. Do you feel Jason that, uh, the kids on the other side of that spectrum, those who were disengaged for all kinds of reasons, um, did they really just miss out in some sense?

Yes. In some sense, no. It just, it sort of depends on the kid. I think that a lot of the students were able to sort of do a minimum level of work and just sort of get by last year. But of course this year, I think a lot of those students, you know, at our school, at, at schools across the country are really started sort of figuring out that they really did lose quite a bit of, of learning.

And, um, I think they’re going to feel that I think that this generation of students is going to feel that for the rest of their academic career, however long that may be. Yeah, I was going to ask you exactly that. I mean, are you seeing already some of the lingering effects just from the last year to two in the different, um, activities and achievements of different groups of kids in the classroom?

Oh, sure. Because, you know, and you think about it just from Zachary’s perspective, right? So, you know, for, for students his age that are juniors in high school right now, they really only went to school for, you know, a semester and a couple of months as freshmen lost their entire sophomore year to code.

And now we’re coming back into the classroom as juniors having missed, you know, what is at our school, a pretty pivotal year for a developing, you know, writing skills, math sort of, you know, all across the board. And so now coming in as junior. It’s a struggle for some kids. Uh, and that’s the case for, for kids of any grade level.

Right. But it certainly, uh, it’s certainly something that, and there’s a lot of, there’s been a lot of research, right. Uh, you know, at the end of last school year, McKinsey, you know, like published this big report about, about learning loss for, for students. And there’s, there’s been a lot of attempts to, to study.

And to try to quantify it in some meaningful way, but, uh, but certainly you see it just in the classroom on a daily basis, you see the gaps that have been created by, by COVID and, and what are our schools like yours doing about that? I mean, certainly we are trying to focus more on skills, work, study skills, even, you know, trying at least in the humanities, right.

To, to make sure that the kids. Get the analytical skills, the writing skills, the reasoning skills that they’re going to need to be successful once they get to college and, and on their AP exams or whatever else they’re doing as they’re finishing up high school. Um, and it it’s, it’s a lot more. Um, you know, sort of individual instruction, it’s, it’s more office hours, it’s more tutoring.

It’s just trying to respond to whatever it is that the kids need. I mean, that’s the only thing you can do at this point. Yeah, I want to pivot a little bit and talk about that moment when, uh, I think it was my sophomore year, so it would’ve been, uh, late 2020 when schools were coming back into session after summer break.

And at least in here in Austin, there was a real debate about whether students should be back in person or not. And I know there was a lot of controversy at the district level, particularly with conflicting policy from the state. Um, what was that like as a teacher with your lives in many ways on the line, uh, when those decisions were being.

That was a really weird time because we were certainly in quite a bit of limbo because we didn’t know. Um, you know, would we be back on campus in person? Would we have students in the classroom or would we simply be teaching from campus, uh, to, uh, you know, students who were elsewhere? And it was really concerning because of course, you know, at that point, at the beginning of the 20, 20 school year, we didn’t have axions yet.

We didn’t know when vaccines were going to be available. We didn’t know whether or not kids would be coming to campus with COVID. And so it was, it was pretty scary. And then also in a lot of school districts, including in Austin, There were shortages of teachers when we did finally go back in person because teachers were out on medical exemptions.

And so at the district level, you know, they were sending central office employees, district employees out to campuses to, you know, to, to be in classrooms with students. And they still are today. Yes. Well, sure. And but now it’s, it’s for substitutes where, you know, we just have a shortage of substitutes in the district, but back then it was to be a physical presence in the classroom where teachers were, were not on campus for whatever reason.

And so that was, that was really a very interesting time. And it was. Pretty scary at first, but now that vaccines have rolled out and of course, you know, I mean, for myself, you know, I’m a fairly healthy, I just turned 50. Right. Um, you know, so I don’t have a lot of underlying risk factors for COVID, but certainly I got vaccinated right away.

I got boosted right away and. On a personal level that makes me feel much safer and much more responsible because it means that I’m much less likely to get really sick or bring COVID home to my partner, to her family or whatever, or my family. And so, you know, that makes me feel a lot safer, but the beginning of 2020 was, was pretty scary.

And Jason you’ve described so well, the uncertainty, the fear, the disruption, uh, how have you and other teachers stayed sane? I mean, because it seems like your, your lives were being appended week after week and you weren’t in control. Often decisions were being made as you implied about who was coming back to school and who wasn’t, that, that you had no control over.

How have you maintained your mental. It’s been a challenge and it’s not just teachers, it’s students, it’s everyone. Right? Because you know, one of the biggest concerns that’s grown out of the pandemic has to do not simply with learning loss for students or stress for teachers, but it’s just sort of across the board, everyone.

Mental health and wellbeing has taken a hit. And, you know, for me, thankfully, my partner, my partner is a mental health professional, right. She was, uh, you know, she’s a licensed therapist. She was the head of, of, of middle school counselors for Austin ISD. But she’s transitioning out of that role now. And so, you know, just having her around is a huge help and certainly just.

Exercise and trying to, you know, to be active and just do whatever I needed to, to, to keep my sanity. Um, you know, that that’s certainly helped me a lot, but it really it’s been such a strain on, on everyone. Just again, it’s that, that, that feeling of isolation, of being disconnected from, from everyone that you’re used to being around from students, from colleagues and it, it, it takes a toll.

And, uh, I I’ve seen, uh, some of the reports that you have lived in seen on, um, many teachers now saying they don’t want to return their concerns about retention, especially if you know, some of the high performing teachers like, like you, uh, is that a result of these conditions and how should we understand that?

Sure. I mean, in part it is a result of, and this goes across professions, right? It’s not just teaching, it’s all of these different professions where COVID has really caused a lot of Americans to reconsider what they find meaningful and, and how they make their living. And, and, and. Is tolerable in, in a workplace.

Right. And so, you know, with teaching it’s the, the stress of the uncertainty of COVID and how we were going to deliver instruction and, and all of these different things, but also for teachers. And of course, this is a perpetual problem in the United States, and it’s not unique to Austin or Texas or, or anywhere.

But it’s that schools are underfunded, that teachers are, are not generally very well paid. And so you add the stress of COVID. And you add, you know, budget shortfalls in, in states and local school districts. And you know, that pressure, it falls on teachers pretty heavily. And so that certainly has caused many, many teachers to reconsider being in the profession.

Are there some concrete ways you think that, that students, parents, administrators can contribute to making that, that teaching environment more tenable and at the least comfortable for teachers? I mean, I have to say from my perspective that the parents, the students at Lhasa. The administration at loss, uh, they’ve been incredibly supportive.

They’ve been wonderful over the course of the pandemic. They’ve really done as much as they could to make this easy on us. And I know that’s not universal across the country. I know that other teachers’ experience in that regard has not been that way. It’s, it’s hard because school district. Because of COVID, we’re left in this, this really sort of untenable position, right?

Because on the one hand you have the demands of the parents and students, you have the demands of the state, which may be, you know, completely opposite. Right. And then, you know, teachers are sort of stuck in the middle of that. Right. And so I really don’t know. What it is that, that, um, you know, that, that could be done to make this any better.

I will say that the federal government, right. Um, you know, the cares act, the Sr funds that were put at the disposal of school districts. Some school districts use those to, you know, to, to mitigate the effects of the pandemic on, on teacher, you know, sort of mental health and mental wellness, the same for students.

Whereas other districts chose not to use those funds in that way. So I don’t know. I’m not sure exactly what the, what the answer is. Uh, it’s interesting though, that, that you brought that up. I mean, one of the recurring questions on our podcast is what role should the federal government play in our democracy?

And it does sound like there’s a potential role for the federal government to play in providing resources, during moments of, of high stress and difficulty for communities, uh, of teachers and learners to actually have resources. They need to adjust to the circumstances. Yes. I think so. And I, and again, I, I think that.

The Sr funds were a very good move in that direction, but because the funds were so, so subject to the, the desires of, and the priorities of local school districts of, of states or whatever the case may be. Uh, I think that the way that those funds were used was highly variable across the country. Um, and I think that potentially they could have been used in some really.

Constructive ways and maybe weren’t all the time. And just for our listeners, just a little background, the Sr funds were, were money appropriated by Congress, a little more than $13 billion. That actually, uh, that was distributed to various state agencies, including state education agencies. And, and as, as Jason says, of course, state agencies had choices as to how to use that money, but it was, it was money.

Appropriated on a bipartisan basis actually by by Congress. Uh, and it is important that we recognize how important that money could be for, for teachers like, like Jason Flowers, uh, and others. Um, Jason w what about the debates we’re having now about, uh, critical race theory and how we teach history to me as a historian myself, um, these debates.

It seemed like an attack on the integrity of teachers that I don’t trust what you’re doing in the classroom. And I want to surveil what you’re doing, and I want to make sure that you’re not teaching the quote wrong history, whatever that is. Um, correct me if I’m wrong or don’t. And I’d love to hear your reaction to my obviously loaded question there.

So I, I will say this, um, the thought of. Government at any level being involved in my classroom is really scary. Um, because again, you know, there’s a chilling effect, right? It it’s, you know, am I going to say the wrong thing today? Is there a thing that I’m going to talk about in class, that’s going to somehow get me in trouble and that’s, it’s frightening.

And you know, I’ve been in the professional long time, I’m a lifer, right? I’m not going anywhere. I, I want to retire as a teacher and, uh, you know, and so the idea that. The state of Texas or any state is going to be involved in what teachers say in the classroom, in that sort of prohibitive way. Right?

Because obviously we have a state curriculum in Texas and we’re supposed to teach the things that are in the state curriculum and that’s fine. That’s understandable. And, and, and, and that’s been the case since I’ve been in the classroom, but the idea that. Just mentioning something in class that is offensive in some way to a student.

Um, that’s scary because you never know what that’s going to be and critical race theory. I, I have to, I don’t even know what to say about critical race theory because I teach a high school us history class that is, you know, it’s obviously meant to be college level it’s, it’s preparing kids for, uh, an advanced placement exam.

But critical race theory is not in our curriculum. It’s not something that you would teach in an AP us history class. And so on the one hand, when people say, oh, critical race theory, I don’t. Okay. Fine. Whatever. I’m not going to teach that in class, but I do have to teach about slavery. I do have to teach about racism.

I have to teach about discrimination. And all of those things are real and they exist in American history and they continue to exist. And so I don’t know exactly how to approach those. Topics other than how I always have. And I just hope that that doesn’t get me in trouble. Right. And the irony is that that as the state, uh, as the state gets more authoritarian, if you will, and, and, and more conservative and reactionary in their approach to these.

The students that you’re teaching in many ways have become far more open-minded and, and engaged in these debates, uh, that, that, that are happening in classrooms, on university campuses, et cetera. Right. Sure. And I, I don’t know. I, I, I worry that the students are becoming more engaged in these debates.

Certainly. I hope that they’re also opening up. Right. Because I would like to think that that was that, that, that is true. And I would like to think that they are receptive to a variety of ideas. Um, and, and, and again, I hope that that. W, what do you say to those who are distrustful of what goes on in the classroom?

I mean, I think that’s a lot of the issue here, Jason. Right? I hear different people saying they’re worried that their children are being taught to hate America or to hate the fact that they’re white or whatever it is. And I’ve never experienced that from a teacher. Um, Uh, how, how do you respond to that?

How, how do you try to build trust for what you’re doing as a teacher of integrity in the classroom? I, you know, I really don’t know the answer to that question. I, I invite any. Legislator in the state of Texas that wants to come and sit in on my class to do so at any time. Uh, and I, I truly don’t believe that anything that I teach in the classroom teaching.

Any of my students to hate America, but I do believe that every student of American history should question America should question things that have happened in our past and should make informed decisions about what should happen in our future. And that’s what I want my students to do. It’s all I’ve ever wanted.

My students. That’s that’s so well said. Uh, and I couldn’t say it better myself. I I’ve long Jason, uh, invited legislators when I taught at the university of Wisconsin and here at the university of Texas, I’ve invited legislators to come to class once in a while. They do. And I’ve long said that we’d be far better off.

If the people criticizing, what they think is happening, happening in our classrooms actually came to see. Before, before saying what they believe, uh, see what we’re doing. And I can tell from what you’ve said, that you’re creating an engaging classroom where many points of view are accessible to students where they’re assessing those points of view and coming to their own, to their own opinions based on factual knowledge, not based on, um, myth.

Right? I certainly hope so. I, I, I really do try to do that and I, I hope, I hope that I’ve succeeded over the. I, I think you have Zachary, um, as, as a student in Mr. Flowers, class and other classes, uh, for, with other teachers at your high school, um, how do you react to seeing your teachers as well as you, as students going through all the difficulties, we talked about, uh, difficulties related to COVID, but also the politicization and the partisanship of our time.

How, how does this affect you seeing all that. I think it’s it, it definitely has had a profound effect on the way that I approach my schoolwork and the way that I, I, I think about my school community. And it’s really made me appreciate to a greater extent, the importance of what I do in the classroom, what my teachers do in the classroom and what we as a school do.

Um, and I think that that, that. Seeing this experience and, and, and experiencing a lot of this myself has taught me is that there is a space and there is a desire among young people, among teachers, among everyone to have these kinds of discussions and, and, and, and think about where we are. Um, there’s definitely widespread dissatisfaction with the status quo, at least, uh, the status quo of COVID.

And, uh, the, the underfunding of our schools. Um, but I think there’s also a lot of joy going on in our schools today. And I think we need to be able to see that. And if anyone doubts that these serious conversations could happen, uh, they should come to Mr. Flowers, Quizbowl practice during lunch, and here are the kind of rockets debates that occurred.

I often hear esoteric questions and esoteric points of history being discussed. Yes, she has. So, so Jason, I want to give you the last word here and I wanted to ask you, you, you, you, one of the things I relish about you as a teacher that I I’ve seen from a distance and. And learned vicariously through Zachary.

You’re an optimist, you’re a man of great energy and hope you convey that every day. What keeps you going? What do people need to know? So they can be hopeful as you are every day in the classroom. I, I will say that the thing that keeps me the most hopeful is that through all the years that I’ve been at Lhasa.

I’ve seen so many of my students do incredible things. Become college professors. Become politically engaged, politically active and just do all sorts of really wonderful things. And I that’s what really keeps me going. These kids are amazing and it’s really been sort of the privilege of my life to teach them.

And I, I really, I really do. It’s been pretty great. It is such a privilege that you and I have as teachers to be able every day to help just a little bit, uh, another generation, uh, correct our mistakes. Right. Uh, in, in the Jewish faith, we talk about repairing the world, right? And I think we repair the world by helping others to be prepared to, to repair it for.

I certainly hope so. Uh, Jason Flowers, we are, we are really so fortunate that you are one of such a large number of teachers in every city and town who every day are, are doing work to, uh, keep our democracy alive and to promote our democracy and help our democracy continue to grow. Uh, as Thomas Jefferson who devoted much of his life to thinking about education said a democracy is really built upon.

Uh, the teachers and the educators of its time. And we’re fortunate that you’re in this profession with so many others at LASA and other schools. Thank you for taking the time tonight when I’m sure you had papers to grade and lesson plans include exactly as paper. Thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate. And Zachary, thank you for your insights. What, what was it like? Have you doing a podcast with your teacher on the brackets? I don’t know. I’m not sure I’ve processed. We’ll be dealing with that afterwards. Okay. Well thank you Zachary for your poem and thank you. Most of all. To our loyal listeners and to all of those out there who, uh, help their teachers to do their jobs, to support their teachers in their communities.

It’s really important. We do that. Thank you for joining us for this week of this is democracy.

This podcast is produced by the liberal arts, its development studio and the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris. Codine stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.

See you next time.