This is Democracy – Episode 160: Mental Health and COVID

This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Yeah, welcome to our new episode of this is Democracy. Today we’re going to discuss I think, what is the most important issue of our time, the mental health of citizens of all kinds After more than a year and a half of covid and recent evidence of bad news of a new variant of covid that’s leading to an increase in infections and even in debts for the unvaccinated. Um and uh the effect this has had over a year and a half on the mental health of Children of citizens, of people of all different backgrounds. We’re joined by a good friend and highly regarded scholar and teacher who I think has done more to work on these issues and has the best background to address them if anyone I know. He was on our podcast at the beginning of the covid quarantine and he’s now joining us again to give us his insights on what we’ve seen over the last year and a half and where we’re going, This is Stephen Sonnenberg steve. Sonnenberg is a psychiatrist and medical, humanities and ethics scholar. He serves as professor and associate chair for education and the department of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at our Dell Medical School. He also holds the paul Woodruff professorship for excellence and undergraduate studies in the school of undergraduate studies and and bearing that share is a testament to steve’s uh incredible achievements as a teacher, he chairs the faculty panel of the bridging disciplines program. Title patients, practitioners and cultures of care. The program is designed to prepare pre healthcare undergraduates with the tools they will later need as providers to create a health care system where health is a human right and structural disparities and care are eliminated. So you get a sense of steve’s ambition, his achievement and his idealism. Steve. Thank you for joining us today. My pleasure Before we turn to our discussion uh with steve Sonnenberg. We have of course, Zachary series, thought provoking poem, What is your poem title today? Zachary? In the Park with the Wide Fountain. Let’s hear it. We are walking in the park with the wide fountain at dusk or dawn when miraculously the light lifts itself over the pavement stones. We are walking in the park with the wide fountain in circles around the base as if propelled centrifugal in our baroness frail and emaciated at dawn or dusk when the trees hug the grass like a blanket long into the dark. We are walking in the park with the wide fountain, the water glistening in the dying or the rebirth of the sun. It to aches nostalgically screams fourth in a heartache so wonderfully beautiful, so un escaping the familiar. We are walking in the park with the wide fountain and the light is ambiguous. We have just woken up or we are so close to sleep. We circle the fountain with the rusting coins flashing red beneath the water in unspeakable violation. We are walking in the park with the wide fountain, something pulling us around and around and we look inwards at the water, flies jumping around on the surface, at the blood red coins beneath, at the sun sinking or rising at ourselves from the right angle side view of an oak tree. I love the imagery and the repetition in that Zachary. What is your poem about? My poem is really about the confusion of living through a time when we don’t know if this is the beginning of something great of of a reopening or the beginning of something terrible of even more tragedy and also this sense that we’re viewing all this in third person that we sort of lost our sense of self and personal agency. It’s it’s a very interesting point that that in a sense we we become disembodied viewers of our own suffering steve. How do we understand as you see it, the collective psychology of our society. I know that’s a problematic term, but nonetheless, I think it’s it’s important. Right, What do you see as some of the main strands of mental health or lack of mental health today? Okay, well, I want to pause for a second and say something about Zachary and his poetry Zachary. I first heard you recite a poem almost three years ago and I I’m awed by the maturity of your poetry in in uh 2018. It was it was wonderful. But there really is evidence of maturation of growth, of the depth and breath of your thinking. And I would say that the metaphors of the poem, I would also apply as appropriate ways of describing your growth at least as a poet. I mean, I’m not I’m not I obviously don’t have standing to make more comments than that. And as I think I’ve done in the past, I’m going to begin my discussion by uh relating uh what I what I think is happening in our world to what I think is happening to you as a poet. Because the poem does reflect both hope and despair, um optimism and pessimism and um and I do think that that is where we are uh in our world. Um I think when we spoke previously on this podcast about the pandemic, I was very concerned that when it ended and I wasn’t as explicit as I should have been because I should have said while it was going on and when it ended as as a world, we would be psychologically traumatized that there would be a pandemic, not just of the physical effects of the virus but of the traumatic effect of the pandemic itself, of the vier of the effect of the virus on all of us on the death that we would encounter. And and and that that trauma would really create a widespread post traumatic stress and in numbers that were that had never been encountered before because this was a trauma that was going to affect the world. I also said that I was hopeful that I thought that there was the possibility that experiencing that trauma would lead us to recognize that as human beings occupying a very very small space in the universe, a very small planet in the universe where where there was so much diversity but we really had to define commonality, similarity and mutual concern and I was hopeful that that would occur. So I would I would actually urge listeners to locate that that previous podcast and uh and and listen to what I said because I was both pessimistic and optimistic. I thought we were going to suffer a lot but the potential was there for us to grow as as a as as as human beings occupying a planet together as brothers and sisters. Um well I think now um and I still am optimistic, I still am hopeful but I don’t think we have gotten to that place yet. And in fact I think we are experiencing as human beings occupying this very small planet all connected to each other with 99% of our DNA. The same and with with 99% of our capabilities uh to think to feel to create, to be innovative, to be collaborative and to be destructive, 99% the same. So I think we are experiencing worldwide post traumatic stress disorder. But I would add to that, that I think we’re in a very particular phase of that disorder and it’s a phase that I don’t think we have ever seen before in the way it is really worldwide and devastating. So I would like to suggest to listeners, uh the book the denial of death by Ernest Becker, wonderful, wonderful book. Becker was really an amazing intellect, an anthropologist, but an interdisciplinary thinker. And the book was written and was finished in 1973. Becker died and it got the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1974 posthumously. And and what what Becker observed was that all human beings considered death, the catastrophe. The thing that terrified everybody. Uh and and really, uh I would add to that despite the comfort of certain faith systems, still, death is the is the ultimate uh terror. And I believe that we uh as as a world society, um we have really experienced that terror uh in a form that that we never have before. Um and uh I believe that what we have experienced basically creates for all of us a sense of the apocalypse that it hasn’t quite occurred yet, but it’s as if it had occurred. We envision it, we see it, we see the four horsemen galloping toward us. We we are not really fully alive, we are in a certain sense and and it’s it’s elusive, but we are living in a post apocalyptic world and steve. This is not something unique to our moment as a historian. It seems to me we’ve had these other post apocalyptic moments in our past, uh, in memoirs and oral histories that I’ve read. You. You have that description often from people who lived through the Great Depression, World War Two. Um, other societies have gone through this in different moments as well. Um, what do we know about? I’m sure this is where you were going into discussion. Anyway, what do we know about how people react and post apocalyptic settings as you’ve described this one? Well, I actually would want to focus on what I’m observing right now. Um, and I’m gonna I’m going to defer to you, uh, to fill in some of the blanks, but one uh, description of the apocalyptic experience would be starts the plague. Um, uh, and obviously there are others. Um, but I’m trying to understand the decisions that are being made. Bye people in power and the decisions that are being made by everyday people who have perhaps very limited power, but some power over their own decision making. And I think steve, I think steve you meant camus is the play just just no, I’m sorry, I didn’t. I didn’t mean continues to plague. No, excuse me. Albert camus to it’s a wonderful discussion of the plague and it uses the plague as a metaphor for the rise of fascism also in France. Yeah, sorry, steve no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I I I apologize. I don’t know why I was confused about that. Um, what I’m observing is that people don’t want to mask, people don’t want to get vaccinated. People in positions of power are mandating that school systems can’t ask people or insist that students and teachers mask that municipalities can’t mandate masking that. We can’t more than encourage, but mandate vaccinations. Except of course, there would always be appropriate medical exceptions to that. But, but in a world I believe that was not denying denying the very experience we’re having, which is being in effect, scared out of our lives and not really feeling fully alive in the sense that when you feel alive, you look forward, you’re optimistic. You have hope, you have dreams, you have plans. It’s as if, okay, all of that is gone. And all we can do is pretend that it’s not gone and that everything is fine and that in fact, uh, we don’t have to worry about vaccinations. We don’t have to worry about masks. We don’t have to worry about death. Um, and in in como’s the plague. Um, at a certain point, the culture that is described actually becomes, uh, uh, it enters this phase of, of a kind of casual acceptance and denial. And I think that we have to get past this because if we don’t, if we don’t get past this, we can’t really properly grieve what has happened and then begin to work together in a way to um heal the wounds of the trauma. I mean one of the one of the one of the things that we need to be able to do is acknowledge how traumatized we are and go about a process of grieving and healing rather than denial and steve uh is the denial that you’re describing which is so frustrating and so inexplicable. Too many of us is that a reaction to a feeling of helplessness. Uh there’s nothing we can do anyway to keep ourselves safe. So we might as well just eliminate all of the barriers to behavior. Is that is that really what you’re describing? I think that’s a good question. I think that’s that’s putting it very well. Yes, I think I think we are denying how help. I think we’ve we are feeling helpless and and that is a part of the effect of the trauma. And it deprives us of the opportunity to recognize, first of all that we’re feeling helpless and that we we uh are able to process that because I think if we do process that if we do grieve, if we do acknowledge the sense of helplessness, we can actually get past that and begin as as a world wide collectivity of people. We can begin to employ not not, not not only introspection, which is very important, but also intellect in more explicit ways uh to recognize that there is a great deal that we can do. Uh there is there is no question but that to be very explicit, The simple act of masking. uh, I’m asking is not uh 25th century science. Uh, it’s it’s it’s it’s uh, probably uh, there are some archaeologists who could tell me when the first mask was observed, but I’m sure it was thousands of years ago. I mean, intuitively, I think it’s if people recognize that if they can mask, I apologize on on my computer, uh, certain times it rings. I just uh, I did want to know, I’m just gonna say. I think, I think if if if we recognize that we actually had tools and we weren’t totally helpless, we would leave this post apocalyptic state of mind and and think in more modern scientific ways. And also a part of that would be modern psychological ways and recognize the importance of grieving the importance of introspection and the importance of recognizing what we can do uh to help ourselves. And and and a lot of that would include empathetic behavior and thinking on the part of many people to embrace others in a way that would be healing. And that was what I had. That is what I had hoped for in the first time. We discussed this early in the pandemic. I didn’t want to touch on this phrase you used world collective because I think part of what you’re saying is that, in a sense, we’ve become more insular as individuals yet, at the same time, I do think, and I’ve noticed this with my peers, at least that we’ve become more connected as a world, that we’ve sort of lost the sense of uh of of national fervor if you will, that we’ve become that the suffering has in some ways brought us together. Do you think we’ve become more insular or have we become more international? Well, I’m what you just said, Zachary uh is a cause for optimism. Uh I’m delighted to hear you say that um it is not what um I have encountered um in let’s say, uh recent months. And you know, actually, uh you know, I haven’t been teaching since May and my interaction with younger people is relatively limited. Um I’m not a child psychiatrist, uh not in the I haven’t been in the classroom for three months. That’s that’s that’s a long time. And uh I actually I’m encouraged to hear you say what you say. It leads me to believe that the optimism that I expressed when we spoke about this in the at the beginning of the pandemic um was was was not unrealistic uh that there was cause for optimism. I’m delighted to hear that you say that about young people about your peers steve do you see among medical professionals, Do you see the despair that you’re describing, You know, I think I think there are very committed people who maintain optimism and I have to say I’m I’m one of them. I mean I’m not totally pessimistic. Um I do I do imagine that if people here the message that I’m offering in right now in this conversation, that it could lead people to take certain kinds of steps to practice introspection, to practice empathy, to be empathic for themselves uh and eventually to engage in what grieving might be necessary and repair a sense of profound pessimism, a post apocalyptic outlook. I also think that that we uh if people in power listen to what I and others are saying that there could be shifts as well. Um I I think the best example of optimism is dr Tony Fauci who has really been on the receiving end of a barrage of of MS of abuse and mistreatment uh and and and still keeps uh preaching the gospel of healing. Um and and I I I think that uh there I have not done a focused study of my peers. I I suspect that there is a range of of uh feeling about uh optimism versus pessimism, a sense of despair versus a sense of optimism um I also think as a group health care providers have risen to this occasion and and in that sense, I would infer a certain a certain hopefulness, remember health care providers in the course of their training encounter aging deterioration and death all the time. I mean that is very much a part of the life of the healer. Um, we we we heal, but we also help people at the end of life. We practice palliative care. We engage in hospice care. Um, I I don’t feel that I can speak definitively. I certainly think that many, many people in healthcare are optimistic. Uh, I also think, uh, probably many, many are pessimistic. But but I do think that that as health care providers, we have a special place in society that empowers us to be more optimistic. So yes, I think that I think there are segments of the culture where people are more optimistic. This might be a question for both of you. But the one thing that I think might be might have a very significant psychological effect on our society in particular is that we’ve spent really the last 20 years since nine-11 uh worried about the threat from without. And we’ve become in many ways a very militarized society. And then to see, to see in many ways our entire lives crumble from within from a disease. And and and and and from I guess you could say an aspect that we wouldn’t that didn’t seem threatening to us. That seems to me like that must have had a deeply psychological effect. And, and I think that might have an influence on how we conduct foreign policy and military policy in the future. We’ll I think Zachary, it’s certainly shatters the invincibility myths that we carry around of ourselves, right, that we tell ourselves, um, you know, because we’re well educated or because we’re um tall and strong or whatever it is, right? Because we’re men, right? We think that um somehow we’re invincible. And I think what you’re describing is how that’s been shattered uh, steve, I’m sure you have some reflections on this. Well, I’m thinking about nuclear deterrence, um, and mutually assured destruction when when Zachary uh brings up our history or military history. Um, obviously there was a time when um, And I think this goes back to my own childhood. I was born in 1940. Um I remember atomic bomb drills in school When I was in, I don’t maybe uh the third grade and the 4th grade and perhaps even even on into high school, um, we would we would we were taught to crouch under our desks, uh, because of the threat of a nuclear weapon, right, Duck and cover as it was called. I did, I did remember the phrase, but well, you know, uh in a way, and I got very interested in studying nuclear deterrence. Um uh uh, and actually worked with people at the Carnegie endowment for international peace. And I I always felt that the policy of deterrence and uh was very fragile. Um, I I understood the the protagonists, but I I always felt that it relied on a certain view of human rationality. Fortunately, so far my concerns have have not been proven right? I mean, we have not had a nuclear disaster, but in a lot of ways, uh, and I’m going to speculate here and I want, I want any every listener to know that this is, this is just a speculation. It may be that the kind of post apocalyptic thinking that I think is at work today um, is um, is related to an ongoing underlying fear of world destruction that goes back to the second World War and the dropping of the atomic bomb bombs on Japan. Uh, now this is an idea that I’m just speculating now, it’s something I want to think a lot more about. I think anybody who’s listening to this would have to think a lot more about it, but but I’m not, but but Zachary, your question um suggests that, um and it suggests that your generation feels a certain kind of comfort that the threat from without was under control and now we have this threat from within this, this virus that attacks our bodies inside and that that threat from within is different and is overwhelming. And I’m not sure if the nuclear threat and the viral threat aren’t part of the the same terror that people have of death. Right? I agree with you steve, I think there is something similar in the sense of helplessness and the sense of um doom that can lead people into all different kinds of, I think psychosis of one form or another. What should people do? What should listeners do steve if if if they’re feeling some of this themselves, if they’re feeling a loss of control, if they’re feeling a sense a personal peril, um and of course some of that is rooted in reality, um but it can also produce a lot of self damaging behaviors. Right? So what should people do, How should they confront this in their own lives? Well, one of the things that I said again, the first time we discussed this uh was that uh we really needed to uh practice empathy with each others. And in a sense, we needed to all try to become a indigenous mental health workers. That we needed to turn to clergy, that we needed to turn to the thoughtful wise people we know to discuss these issues to grieve, to mourn uh and and to try to develop a more realistic sense of hope in the face of very, very challenging situations. And also as part of that hope to practice ways of living that actually could help us deal with these terrible, terrible threats. And um and I really believe that all of us have a potential capacity to heal each other and heal ourselves in community. And if we really put our minds to being members of a healing community, I think we would we would move forward. Now, I also think that we have the potential here to benefit to get benefit from counseling from professionals. I mean we have a large professional community of mental health counselors, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers counselors and I sir, and I think very importantly clergy most of whom have had some training in counselling and many of whom are very interested in performing that function. So I I do think we need to yeah, try to discuss these issues with with thoughtful wise people who can really help us. And and again, I think if we add to that practicing measures that really will protect us, I think we can develop at least some sense, some real sense of agency. We are not totally helpless. So just as a final question to to push on that a little bit, because I think it’s such helpful advice you’re giving. Can you tell us or give us an example of what a healing community looks like in this case or when you’ve been a part of our scene in a in a different context. But nonetheless, I I feel steve sometimes that because our society is so um partisan now. And so in such an attack mode that some people really don’t know what a healing community looks like they haven’t seen it or if they have, they forget. And and so how can we as humanists describe that help people to imagine that in their lives? Well, I what comes to mind are the classes I taught last academic year? Um and of course what I was teaching was medical humanities and medical ethics mostly to college freshman. And I changed my course which which had been prior to the pandemic, a general course in uh medical humanities and ethics, where I tried to convey the importance of studying the humanities for the development of future health care providers and the importance of uh huh focusing on ethics. But I changed it to focus very specifically on the pandemic and what the pandemic was teaching us. Um so we began for example, the course listening to martin Luther King’s speak. I have a dream speech. Um and um we talked about Black Lives Matter. We talked about Brown lives Matter. We talked about asian american lives matter. Uh we we talked about uh every aspect of Disadvantage that the pandemic was bringing into focus and we talked about that. In the last fall, I had 200 students in the class and it became very, very clear that we came together as a community and we were doing it on zoom. We weren’t, we didn’t have the advantage of being in the same place at the same time and the student response uh because we do have course instructor surveys, I actually have a very good idea of the student response and it was extremely positive. Um We we did some physical exercises, for example, we were on on on the zoom screen where we had 200 little squares of uh of faces. And uh we we engaged in the practice of reaching out through the space through the squares. And of course we were using our imaginations, but we all held hands and we actually sang together Um as a group of 200 people, we actually sang the Beatles all together. Now, we worked in very, very concrete ways to create a sense of togetherness of connection and community. Now. I think this can happen in religious communities. I think it can happen in homeowners associations uh in in in uh for example, in condominiums like where I live. Um I think it can happen in uh in departments. I think it can happen in offices. It takes a certain um willingness to be open and sharing and vulnerable uh and express vulnerability. But I think in the end we come out as stronger communities and you know, ultimately it is my hope that uh as we as we move forward in the world, that we actually will do that. Now. I can give you a specific example from another time after the Vietnam War. Vietnam veterans felt very isolated, very alone, very misunderstood. Well, I was a part, I was I am a Vietnam era veteran. I was a psychiatrist at the time and I became involved in the development of the veterans centers and in the veterans support groups that were being created in those centers and veterans were coming together. Uh and basically, in a sense, metaphorically and sometimes very physically holding hands and sharing their experiences and that was healing. So I think we have models of healing, other models of healing. Um uh support groups like alcoholics, anonymous uh in those groups, people come together, they open themselves up, they share they express their vulnerability and they gain a sense of stability and support. So we do have models that do work. Um and um and I I think we we really need to do that. And I think that when leaders don’t express that kind of vulnerability, but rather how put forth an image of toughness that comes across as in sensitivity, it discourages an expression of vulnerability. It discourages the formation of groups in in our culture where people really can empathize with themselves and with each other. And I by the way, I’ve mentioned empathy with the self and that’s that’s an elusive concept. Empathy. Empathy begins with being able to to look inward and empathize with what one is going through. That can be that is built on when people can empathize with others. And I I understand that this may sound very even very fanciful, but I can tell you as a mental health professional and as a teacher that it isn’t. And and of course by the way, I’m very optimistic when Zachary, when you suggest that your generation is more optimistic. I I do think the students I worked with last year, they gave they really gave me a lot of very positive feedback that they were experiencing a sense of community. So I am hopeful I share that steve, but I can’t help but ask one more question. Um what do we do with the people who in reaction to the sense of vulnerability that you describe so? Well, instead of revealing their vulnerability and holding hands and reaching out as we all know, is healthier. What do we do with those whose reaction is just the opposite? Is to lash out to condemn others. There’s no doubt that much of the trump phenomenon is driven by a sense of vulnerability among those who behave that way. And and so what do we do when when these moments are encouraging not just the healing reaction but the opposite. How do we, how do we connect with those people? How do we bring them into our circle? Well, I have two heroes and uh I’ve already told you basically that one of them is martin Luther King, because we started my courses uh my my medical humanities courses which were focused on the pandemic. Um and we started listening literally listening to the I have a dream speech. Um and I shared with my students that I was in Washington, I was at that speech. I was standing there hearing it and that it really changed my life. Well, martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi are my heroes and I think they have much to say and they have much to say about really reaching out in a loving way and in a kind way and in a patient way and not in an arrogant way. I mean I do know, I think these were two human beings who really mastered the art of eliminating arrogance from their personalities. I I really think they did that now. Now it may be that people who studied them more carefully than I have would disagree, but I think I think they mastered the art of being humble and being caring and loving and giving and I think I think we have to try to do that and that’s not easy, but I think I really think and I don’t I don’t think that that means not being patronizing, not being arrogant, not being condescending and and being willing to put yourself forward and experience suffering if necessary, but not giving up and and not lashing back but really practicing in a very benign way, a willingness to be an example of humility. Uh and and uh an active creator of community and I certainly believe that Gandhi and and King were people who embodied all of that and uh uh I mean I think they should be our models. It’s a great answer and and resonates with one of one of our themes in the podcast each week, which is of course that there are historical inspirations for us and that by studying the lives of others, we can gain a new perspective on our own lives Zachary to close us out here. Does does this description that steve offers? Does is it helpful? I mean, because your generation, one of the great markers of your generation is that you want to call out injustice, Uh more of your generation has been involved in peaceful protests against racism than even the civil rights generation of the 1960s. I mean, these are issues you care deeply about not just you your generation, but by all measures and that’s good. You care about the environment. You want to call out people who are destroying our environment, But at the same time, steve is saying you have to reach out that you have to heal. How do you think about that as someone struggling with these issues? I think it’s tempting often to sort of uh like put it down to the generational divide um between generations. But I think it’s much more than that. I think it’s sort of this again, this sort of feeling of being left behind being left out of these institutions that that that that younger people are benefiting from and some young people feel this as well. And so I think that it’s important for for young people to to to sort of recognize that we have to call out injustice that injustice is often a function of insecurity on the on the part of the oppressor and that for us to address injustice, we have to also be able to recognize the humanity in the oppressor or in those who would not, who would not protect others and can’t empathize with others. So you want to build humanity, this is steve’s point. You think you can across good and bad actors and and and and the way I think about it, I I don’t know if my generation has succeeded in doing this or not, but I the way I think about it is that we need to be able to um to fight for for what we believe is right. But at the same time to be able to see the humanity and everyone and to be able to to see the potential fighter of injustice in every person. Gosh, that’s that’s hard for me to do. I have trouble seeing the humanity in in the donald trumps of the world, but that’s just that’s just who I am steve. I want to give you the last word here. I I don’t have anything more to say. I always appreciate the opportunity to participate in these podcasts. They’re always learning experiences for me. Um and uh I hope what I had to say is uh helpful to people who listen to the podcast, it’s it’s a super helpful steve. I think you’ve offered us, first of all, a way to put into words some of what many of us are feeling and and people are probably feeling what you describe this, poke a post apocalyptic moment uh in in different ways, but I think there’s a little bit of it in many people and being able to name the problem or name the condition is so important, you can’t really address it until you can, can name it. And I think you’ve given us a number of pathways forward, uh not solutions right there. These aren’t issues that get resolved, these are issues that get addressed. And we hope to make progress with in an honest way and and the difficulties of our moment can indeed become opportunities for growth as you said. And that’s I think what makes all of us so optimistic, especially those of us who work with young young people and those who have the opportunity to talk to people as we do on this podcast every week. So, thank you so much for joining us steve. Sonnenberg. Steve referred a few times to the prior podcasts. He joined us for just for those of you who want more of steve Sonnenberg and cant get enough. I’m included in that fan club. He was on our episode 91 In April of 2020, just at the start of the pandemic or what we thought was the start of the pandemic. And then he also joined us in 2018, episode 18 where he talked about health care policy that also is very relevant and many of the things he said then were present, even though he might not have known it at the time. So thank you again, Steve for joining. Well always it really is always a learning experience and uh and a privilege to to work with. One of one of the great father son teams that I’ve ever encountered. The Zachary and Jeremy Suri. Uh Well Zachary thank you for letting me be on your team and for sharing your your your poetry with us today most of all thank you to all of our listeners and we don’t often say this but we should uh we hope you’re all staying safe and we hope that everyone out there is is finding healing and community in this difficult moment. We all we all need it and maybe our podcast can help provide just a little bit of that community as well. And as Frasier Crane would say good day and good mental health. Yes thank you for joining us for this episode of this is democracy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. This podcast is produced by the liberal arts I. T. S. Development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of texas at austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Komotini. Stay tuned for a new episode every week you can find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify and stitcher. See you next