This is Democracy – Episode 157: Cuba and Democracy in the Caribbean

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[0:00:20 Speaker 1] have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week we’re going to talk about democracy in CUBA and other caribbean neighbors and the challenges the historical challenges. Many of them are related to american foreign policy. Many of them are related to local factors, but nonetheless CUBA and that region have a long difficult history of democratic efforts. And we’re going to talk today about why that’s the case and what we can learn from that history. As we see the people of CUBA. Today, many of them demanding democratic reforms in their society. What can we learn from this history to understand this contemporary effort at transformation in CUBA and other societies. Today we’re fortunate to be joined by an old friend and really wonderful scholar and teacher. Uh Professor Alan Mcpherson. Alan is a professor of history and director of the center for the study of force and diplomacy at Temple University, which is a fantastic center. They produce a lot of interesting scholarship. I’ve had the good fortune of going out there to speak a few times. Allen is a prolific and very thoughtful writer. He’s written and edited 11 books. The most recent is a book that we featured on our podcast actually just before Covid uh, in that uh prehistoric period, it seems like so long ago. Alan doesn’t, It’s a wonderful book, the ghosts of Sheridan circle, how Washington assassination brought pinochet’s terror state to justice. Really an extraordinary book about an important moment In the 1970s that really transformed us Latin American relations. Alan, thank you for joining us again today.

[0:02:06 Speaker 0] Oh, it’s my great pleasure.

[0:02:09 Speaker 1] Before we turn to our discussion with Allen, we have Zachary’s poem for the week. What is your poem titled today? Zachary? Certainly probable. Certainly probable. Let’s see where this one takes us. Let’s hear it. I see that moment clearly coming like a

[0:02:28 Speaker 0] hurricane of malaise

[0:02:29 Speaker 1] to the island of paradox here where columbus beached here, the soundtracks on bay of pigs. I see that moment, clearly now that moment when we might all crawl back to our indifference and erase the memory of said floating contradiction here. The tiki bar, the lazy river here, the poor man’s hut. But really it is not inevitable though certainly probable that the government shall dissolve the people and elect another. A little irony at the end. There exactly what is your poem about? Well, my poem really takes this breast quote that this idea that the government shall dissolve the people and elect another and sort of takes us beyond the moment of now. When we see this this moment of reckoning in CUba and asks what will happen afterwards, Right? And asks really, can we sustain this? Can this be something that succeeds? And what does that take? Right? Right. And of course, you know, we assume that the people make the government. But the point here is that sometimes the government makes the people unfortunately. Yes. So alan, I think that’s probably a good place to turn to you cuba Like many societies in the caribbean and in Central America, the region, you know better than almost anyone. Um CUBA has gone through many waves of efforts at democratizing itself. Why, why historically has this been so difficult?

[0:03:52 Speaker 0] Right. Well, of course, you know CUBA is its own case apart. Let me start with how CUba besides that is is actually similar to a lot of places in the caribbean and Central America. I mean these are relatively small places, they are poor. Uh they’ve been uh you know historically colonized at the mercy of large european powers. And then the United States, their economies were there to service the needs of larger economies. And so they were export economies, they were exploited uh millions of african slaves, uh save people’s were sent to the caribbean. And so the economy were never really supposed to prosper, right? You weren’t supposed to create middle classes that could sort of sustain a democratic movement in those uh those islands and those small places. And so the entire caribbean area has always struggled with democracy For those reasons. Now, partly because of its poverty inequality and and the presence of the United States and Cuba it underwent essentially what became a communist revolution in 1959. I’m sure your listeners essentially no this. And so for Cuba there’s the added difficulty that communism formally does not does not allow democracy. And so you have a one party regime. And if it strays from government, control of the economy and this sort of one party elections, it’s going to be going against its whole reason for being. And so it’s very difficult to install any kind of democracy now in CUBA and has been for decades.

[0:05:35 Speaker 1] And alan, why did CUBA become the focus of a communist revolution in the way it did? And and how did the government of Fidel Castro who passed away, I think, just 10 years ago, and was really ruled the country is a dictator virtually from 1959 to 2000 and 16, I think it was right. Um so not 10 years ago, I guess he passed away five years ago. How did that happen? How did, how did Castro’s regime, how did this communist regime come to power? And how did they stay in power?

[0:06:04 Speaker 0] Right. I mean, that’s a that’s a complicated question. CuBA was not necessarily sort of the poorest country in uh in that part of the world, but it’s a combination of factors. One is that it had a very disliked dictator, that dictator was perceived and you know, to a great extent was close to the United States. And so there is this perception that the United States was encouraging dictatorship and not democracy in CUBA.

[0:06:34 Speaker 1] This is Fulgencio Batista,

[0:06:35 Speaker 0] Yes, potential Batista. So he leaves on the first of january 1959. And you know, the other sort of big factor is that you had a very charismatic and to a certain extent sort of, you know, very strategic and lucky Guerilla movement that took him out of power for several months, Fidel Castro when he comes to power, he’s not he’s not even the prime minister, he’s just sort of the head of this guerilla movement, but he’s allied with several other Cubans and many of these Cubans, uh you know, they’re only alliance with Castro is that they were anti Batista right anti dictatorship. Many of them are democrats and they wanted democracy. And Castro essentially says, we don’t think we’re ready for this, and he quickly takes the reins of power and says, okay, well, I guess there won’t be any elections or there will be in two years or four years whenever cuBA is ready. Uh And eventually um that kind of, you know, halfway communist dictatorship turns the United States against Castro, the CIA starts organizing against Castro, the Dwight Eisenhower government also starts cutting off Castro from its economy. And so Castro essentially turns to the Soviets as the only alternative that he sees of a sort of a great power that can buy what he has to offer, which is sugar. Um And so of course, in return, the Soviets want, you know, a communist economy, a communist politics. And so I think it’s not necessarily the Castro always wanted to be a communist, although he later said that he did always want to, but I think it’s the way it evolves that, you know, he wants complete independence from the United States. Uh He is strongly nationalistic and he wants personal power and the way to get those things is to have a communist government. Um And so that’s the way you sort of, you know, maintain the strong nationalism and independence of CUBA and that’s that’s mostly what the Cuban revolution has been about.

[0:08:32 Speaker 1] It’s striking that a society that is so small in islands, it’s such a small island and so close to the United States that it could survive for so long as an adversary of the United States. Is that simply because of external support from the soviet union? Or how do we explain that?

[0:08:52 Speaker 0] Oh, I think the external support was crucial, but it wasn’t the only thing. I mean, you certainly needed to have this trade relationship with the Soviets where the Soviets would purchase sugar at a high price was higher than what Cubans would have, you know, been able to sell it for in the market. And of course, the Soviets gave in return cheap petroleum. And so this really sustained CUBA as, you know, as as a society and as a government and economy For up until the end of the Cold War. And if you talk to people who lived in Cuba in the 60s and 70s, they said it was really, you know, quite quite sort of an easy, well run, you know, economy and society. And in many ways, if you were a leftist, this was utopia, right? This was heaven on earth. There really was equality after a couple of the first couple of months or years where the enemies of the revolution are either being thrown in jail or leaving the island, Cuba is essentially all communists. And there’s almost unanimous support for castro. And so when you do have an external threats such as the failed invasion of the Bay of Pigs in 1961, it’s just what it does actually is really rally the population around castro and around the idea that communism is the only way forward, right? And, you know, add to that, that the economy is able to sustain a decent, you know, standard living for most Cubans. And you know, then the revolution just keeps going Right. And so castro has sort of put into the minds of Cubans for four or five decades that the revolution is always ongoing, right? It’s not something that happens at 59 and then you start a new society, it’s always ongoing, which is why he’s always in fatigues, right? For for decades, because he wants to show that this sort of war is always going to continue.

[0:10:46 Speaker 1] So how does Cuba survive the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s? And and and more recently, the exit of the castros from the political arena?

[0:11:00 Speaker 0] Yeah, I mean, I think survives is the operative word here, right? It barely does. And the conditions that we’re seeing now that explained the recent protests in the last week or, so we’re actually quite similar to the conditions of the 1990s for different reasons, but essentially, the economy almost collapses. The Gorbachev government essentially takes away all its support for the Cuban economy, right? Soviet soldiers leave, there’s no more cheap oil, they’re not buying the sugar anymore. And so, you know, the Castros and the revolution survive in two ways. One is that they turned to tourism, They do what just about everybody else in the caribbean does, who doesn’t have petroleum and they developed their tourism industry. And so that is the source of their their foreign currency. And if you go to cuba there’s, you know, there’s long been lots of, lots of tourists. They’re not just americans, but mostly Europeans, Canadians and so on. Uh so that’s highly developed and it really starts in the 1990s or intensifies in the 1990s. The second thing that it does is that allows some Some limited forms of sort of free market reforms, right? So in the 1990s you start seeing these very small, very highly regulated businesses. So if you have a house and you have, you know, a large kitchen, you can put four tables in your living room and you can operate a restaurant out of your out of your house. And so you see these tens of thousands of businesses also catering essentially to uh to foreigners. Um and so cuba becomes this sort of dual economy and there’s actually sort of two rates of exchange is right. Uh So there’s a lot of foreign currency and just about everybody tries to get their hands on it and then there’s almost worthless pesos that people who aren’t fortunate enough to work for foreigners have to live on. So most people are trying to, you know, sort of scavenge and do and do both of those things.

[0:13:06 Speaker 1] Yeah. And are the protests that we’re seeing now, alan do you think these rise to the level of a serious challenge to the regime or or how should we understand what we’re seeing right now?

[0:13:20 Speaker 0] Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s kind of hard to tell what’s going to happen. But I do see them as a serious grievance against the regime. Now, whether the regime will, you know, fall or respond to these or transform itself, uh that I’m seriously doubtful about. If there’s one thing we know about the Cuban regime is there are Cuban leaders I should say is that they’re very good at withstanding any kind of sort of popular uprising? Uh They’re very good at that sort of pretending that they identify with the people and they’re going to resolve the people’s problems. We just saw this week, right, the sort of younger president of of CUBA essentially telling the people well we’ve probably made some mistakes, we can make some adjustments, we’ll do what we can, but at the same time he’s shutting down the movements, he’s arresting hundreds of people, He’s shutting down much of social media. And so to me, one of the big questions is, you know, is this sort of an arab spring in cuba is this something where the people on mas through social media will rise up and will actually obtain the ousting and transformation of this regime? And I would bet not

[0:14:43 Speaker 1] and why not?

[0:14:45 Speaker 0] Uh huh. I mean I think, you know the Cuban government is so good at uh right sort of like I said, they’re so good at sort of pretending that they’re going to respond to the people and they might make some changes, right? They’ve always been able to make some changes, You know, since the 1990s. And you know, this has been 30 years now. They’re good at sort of making some changes. And then when Cubans are taking advantage too much of those changes and maybe asking for too much or asking for political changes along with economic changes, then they start scaling them back. Right. There’s also a very unique dynamic in cuba where if you are, you know, as a citizen or a sort of civil society group, putting yourself in opposition to the Cuban regime, it’s very very easy for the Cuban government to say you are in cahoots with the ultimate enemy, which is the United States. And within that the Cubans from florida and therefore you’re not authentic Cubans, you’re not really nationalistic and therefore you’re, you know, you have no legitimacy. And in fact, that’s what we saw the president cuBA also do this week to sort of accuse these movements of being funded by the United States.

[0:16:02 Speaker 1] So you mentioned the Cubans in florida. What role does the Cuban immigrant community in florida play in this whole discussion.

[0:16:11 Speaker 0] Right. I mean they play all sorts of roles. I mean one is that there are an important source of funding for all Cubans, right? I mean, almost everybody in CUBA knows someone in the United States, not necessarily in cuBA. Um And so their remittances, right? The money that they send to families and friends in cuba have always been very important. And that has been a source that has dried up during Covid. It’s right up partly because of Covid, it’s dried up partly because of the trump organization, which cut off a lot of the ways in which that money was funneled Cubans because essentially trump said the Cuban military and the Cuban government controls um the ways in which money goes from, you know, an american and Cuban in florida to cuba and cuBA and therefore we’re helping to fund the Cuban military. That’s the last thing we want. So we’re shutting it down. So that’s why I think it was today, Joe biden has said, we’re going to take another look at this and possibly open up those channels again, because even though money goes to the army, it also of course goes to regular Cubans. So now we are very important for the economy of cuBA.

[0:17:24 Speaker 1] At such an interesting insight Allen. Um one of the eternal debates of course, and you’ve written about this is the debate between whether one should try to cut off a regime um that’s acting in in repressive ways or whether one should engage that regime. Um What’s your point of view on this?

[0:17:46 Speaker 0] I mean, I think that the United States needs to engage cuba as much as possible because what we’re seeing really is the result of it’s partly the result. It’s probably just Covid which United States right, couldn’t really control. Um but it’s partly the result of the pullback from the trump organization, um and then pull back after the opening by Obama. So the opening by Obama allowed a lot more dollars to flow to the to cuba allow a lot more americans to go there, allowed a lot more businesses to flourish. And so Cubans quite suddenly got a lot more of a taste of sort of freedom uh than they had before. A lot of that is is financial freedom. Um And so now it’s been taken away from them. And so they are realizing what they could have been having right for decades. Um, and it’s now being taken away from them and they’re very frustrated by this. You know, there’s this fascinating uh, music video that has been, has gone viral in CUBA. And uh, it’s title is Our Fatherland and Life, right? Patrick Vida. And I watched it yesterday. It’s quite good. And its title essentially as a play on, on the old sort of calling card of Fidel Castro, which is Fatherland or death, right? We’ll do anything to sort of sustain the independence of CUBA. And what these young people are saying. And they say this in the song right there all young folks and they mostly men. And they essentially say that was your 59, this is our 2020, Right? So you’re 59 was with fatherland or death. But you know, the battery is fine. Now the independence is secured. Why we’re not going to lose our independence. What we want is our own country. Yes. But we also want life, right? You need to give us more sort of possibilities for improving our lives here in CUBA. And so we’re patriots, but we’re patriots who want more. And that has also been therefore the chance of a lot of these protesters in the streets are chanting Patria vida and that’s going to be a slogan. That’s very hard for the Cuban regime to just deny.

[0:19:58 Speaker 1] Yeah, it sounds like a classic case of what Alexis de Toqueville called the revolution of rising expectations, where things get better people get access to a better lifestyle. And then when they’re restrictions, even if the restrictions don’t take them back to the suffering of the past, they still resent it and they expect things that they didn’t expect before and they asked the regime to do things that didn’t do before. Um And it sounds like that’s what you’re describing Allan.

[0:20:25 Speaker 0] That’s exactly right. And you know, it’s interesting because that phrase is one that American policy makers used about Cuba and much of Latin America in the 1950s, right? They were saying that there is increasing numbers of students and universities and middle classes and people who are living in cities. They’re well educated and they want democracy, right? They have more uh they have more economic freedom, prosperity than ever. And they want democracy to go along with it. So they’re taking down dictators one after the other, we need to be on the right side of this. So now we’re seeing this again in CUBA. But let me go back to the issue of florida, right? The big reason why joe biden and the democrats in general hesitate to engage cuBA more is the politics of florida, right? It’s not the money coming out of florida florida. Because if biden sort of caves too quickly and seems to be collaborating with the the Cuban regime, then he might again lose florida in 2022 2024. And so he’s got florida politicians. I will bet you telling him don’t go too fast on this, right? Let’s make sure it benefits, benefits florida. You know, families of Cubans and that they want it and that we’re not helping the Cuban regime. And that’s a very fine line to thread right between helping humans but not helping their government,

[0:21:48 Speaker 1] Right? And your your point is so well, said Alan, there’s a big Senate race, of course, in Florida in 2022 val Demings running against incumbent Marco Rubio. And I’m quite sure that those on the democratic side of probably saying exactly what you just said to biden help the Cubans, but don’t make it look like you’re in any way caving into the regime or doing anything that helps the regime allen. I wanted to just switch back to the regional view if we could for a second. You’ve already covered so much for us here. But Uh throughout this this period that you spent a lot of time uh elucidating for us period from 1959 to the present, CUBA was a remarkably influential country in the region. Um and Fidel was a kind of iconic figure and many have argued that the spread of anti american rhetoric and criticism, as many legitimate criticisms of american policy in the region were fueled by by CUBA’s presence. You yourself have written a lot about this. Does the movement toward democracy or at least the pressure to reform the regime? Does that have a contagious effect of its own in the region?

[0:22:58 Speaker 0] I wouldn’t say too much because Most countries in the Caribbean are really not in the position that Cuba is in. I think, you know, if anything, it’s going to increase the pressure on the United States to abandon the embargo. The United States has had an embargo on Cuba since the early 60s. In fact, I saw several governments in the area around the world are saying to joe biden, now is the time to lift the embargo? I don’t think that’s gonna happen one x one because Joe Biden simply can’t do it by himself. The embargo is now a law. It’s not an executive order anymore. And so it has to go through Congress. No way the republicans are going to collaborate on lifting the embargo. It would hand far too large of a of a victory to the democrats, even though it would actually help undermining the Cuban regime. Uh And so for that reason, you know, it’s it’s going to be hard, but I think also democracy is well settled in most of the Caribbean. The exception really is Haiti. But I think Haiti most, I think people in Caribbeans see it as a case apart from cuba right. It’s certainly not Communistic. Um it’s had its own issues with dictatorship and development. Um but cuBA doesn’t particularly influence a lot of the countries around it.

[0:24:21 Speaker 1] That makes sense. That makes sense. And certainly in the case of Haiti, which which you mentioned, uh the United States probably is partially to blame for the now assassinated leader staying in office too long. We we certainly encouraged him to stay in power in many ways. Yes, alan, as we’ve sort of come to a close here, we always like to think uh forward to look, look to the future a little bit. What do you think of some lessons going forward for the United States? You’ve talked about this sort of history in the region, the ways in which the United States has dealt with conflicting factors and how we’ve often gotten them wrong, the complexities of what’s happening in CUBA and elsewhere. What what have we learned going forward and how should citizens who are listening think about the role that the United States can and should play in coming years in CUBA and in neighbouring countries.

[0:25:14 Speaker 0] Right. I mean, I guess there’s a couple of good lessons here. One is, you know, don’t don’t start an embargo. Don’t start a long term embargo on a very small country because then you’re sort of stuck with it, right? It’s very difficult to undo that embargo, especially under these sort of political circumstances. But the larger lesson here is don’t try to understand the democracy, it’s sort of an indigenous process, right? It has to happen from within uh that’s what’s occurring in CUBA. Today. It was fine to normalize relations with CUBA in terms of, you know, opening up trade and remittances and travel with CUBA. But don’t do much more than that, right? Do not get involved in forming political parties or having some sort of political influence on which right anti government group might be in power, might not be in power. You want to let democracy and democratic movements take their sort of natural course within a country without influencing from the outside, because that is always a recipe for long term disaster. If a you know, a non communist government comes up and it’s been it’s been a product of external force, especially U. S. Forces. Uh It’s not going to survive in CUBA.

[0:26:35 Speaker 1] Right? So this is really about the limits of american power, which I know is a theme in your in your scholarship and you see that as one of the key lessons going forward. That’s correct. Zachary. What do you think? I mean a lot of young people like yourself who care about our neighbors, care about the region, care about democracy. Uh I sense there is there is a desire to do more rather than just sit back and wait, what do you think about that? Is Allen’s wisdom more practical. And does it make sense? Can it could could his humble approach inspire young people? I think. So it’s important to remember that our generation never really knew the Cold War. And so we don’t we don’t see the Cuban regime as an existential threat to the United States, uh, that we may see it as an existential threat to its own people.

[0:27:27 Speaker 0] But I think it’s important

[0:27:29 Speaker 1] to remember that these things take time. And I think that yes, as as young people, we are quick to jump on easy solutions. But I also think we have a lot of a much greater understanding of how complex these issues do than our parents did say in 2003. And of course, we’ve seen in our own society, how complex and faulty many of our democratic assumptions are. And so maybe that humbling influence carries abroad with us. That the last question I wanted to ask you, Alan is, um do you think that um the debates we’re having in the United States surrounding issues of race and issues of equality? Do you think that these could in some way have a positive influence in moving our policy towards some of the lessons you articulated? Or do you see these as separate issues?

[0:28:22 Speaker 0] Oh, that’s a good question. I hadn’t really thought about that. I mean, I think in a sense, you are issues about race are issues about democracy and we have not yet been able to sort of build a true democracy in the United States. We’ve long been hobbled by race in forming a sort of more egalitarian uh community. If anything, the Cubans, I wouldn’t say have solved this problem, but they’ve advanced it further than we have. They’ve been. You know, I think since the beginning of the revolution, a less racist country than the United States, a less divided country than the United States. If anything, we can learn from CUBA to transform our society. And hopefully, uh the Cubans can, can learn from us as to how to have a freer society, not necessarily a less racist one, but a freer society, a more prosperous one. And uh, one where, you know, the rising tide does in fact lift all boats.

[0:29:29 Speaker 1] Alan, that’s such a thoughtful and inspiring place to close the conversation and it reminds us of something that I think is often lost in policy debates. Even in our scholarship, Right, That change and influence go in two directions. I think you captured that in your discussion of the evolution of CUBA through the Cold War. And, and also I think we can see that today, as you say, uh, the challenges of democratization in CUBA in the region are challenges different but also related to the challenges in the United States. And it’s not simply about our helping them. It’s about our allowing ourselves to be helped by them as well and seeing influence in both directions. And I think that that might be probably another historical lesson right to recognize we have something to learn from them just as they might have something to learn from us.

[0:30:18 Speaker 0] Right? Hopefully

[0:30:20 Speaker 1] we can all hope so. Alan, thank you for sharing your time with us. Uh, I want to encourage our listeners to look up Allen’s work. He’s written on almost all the topics we’ve talked about today on anti Americanism, on revolution in the region, on America’s uh, largely unsuccessful efforts to try to control the regime change in the region. And then of course, as we mentioned, his most recent book on the violence that came to the United States from our support of dictators overseas, particularly in in chile Allen, Thank you again for joining us.

[0:30:55 Speaker 0] Thanks Jeremy and Zachary

[0:30:57 Speaker 1] and Zachary. Thank you for your provocative poem as always. And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners. Thank you for joining us for this episode of This is Democracy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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