This is Democracy – Episode 156: The Olympics

This is democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next.

Welcome to our new episode of this is democracy.
This week. We’re going to discuss the Olympics. Uh, we’re coming up on the summer Olympics in Tokyo in 2021. And the Olympics of course, have a long history as does internet. What’s competition. And, uh, as anyone who is a sports fan as I am, and as many of you are, I know, um, recognizes sports, have a lot of politics attached to them, particularly international sports competition.
And today we’re going to explore the history of the Olympic movement, the history of international sports competition, at least in the us. Century or so, and how that history helps us to understand the politics around the current Olympics and the intersection between international sports competition and the politics around democracy and international affairs in our world today, we’re joined by two of the most interesting, thoughtful and distinguished people, uh, writing and thinking about these issues, uh, professors, uh, Robert Edelman and David MacDonald, um, Robert Edelman.
Is a professor of Russian history and the history of sport at the university of California, San Diego. And he’s written four books, uh, on a variety of topics in Russian history, in sports history, the ones related to sports history, which are well worth looking at or serious. A history of spectator sports in the USSR and spartek Moscow, a history of the people’s team.
He’s been a consultant for HBO, PBS, ESPN, and CBS on sports history. And he’s co editor of a series on sports and world history. And most recently has co-edited a forthcoming volume. On the history of sport in the cold war, I had the chance to read part of this volume in preparation for our discussion today.
And it’s filled with fascinating articles on people like east German, a skater, a Catarina VIT, uh, and, um, the politics surrounding, uh, the Olympics throughout the cold war. Uh, Bob, thank you for joining us today. That’s great to be here. Uh, our second guest, uh, is an old friend and a distinguished scholar and teacher and university leader.
Uh, David McDonald. He’s the Alice D Mortenson Petrovich distinguished chair in Russian history at the university of Wisconsin. Madison. Um, he’s the author of numerous books and articles on Russian history. My favorite, uh, divided government and Russian foreign policy, 1900 to 1914 a book. I still very vividly remember reading when I was a graduate student, trying to understand, uh, Russian foreign policy, uh, relevant for our discussion today, David’s written a word.
Well, an insightful article on sport history and the historical profession, uh, actually published by, uh, in a volume edited by Bob Adelman, uh, published I just a few years ago. David, thank you for joining us today. Good to hear you, Jeremy, and always glad to help. It’s nice to have you on David. Uh, before we turn to our discussion with, uh, Bob and David, uh, of course we have a Zachary series scene setting poem, uh, Zachary, what’s the title of your poem?
They say that sports unites the world? Well, uh, let’s, let’s hear about it. They say that sport unites the world. And so it was, we’ve watched it twirl. We’ve met the world in all its warts through its weirdest, strangest sports, 1904 absent cheap transatlantic transportation, uh, Cuban mailman’s routes where his qualification and nearly indeed would he have been forgotten if his new Orleans dice game had gone.
Right. Back in 36, the champions of peace, true diversity held their competition to prove Hitler’s superiority and beneath the black, white, red, supposedly of peace. We saw our violence demagogues all decked out in there. In 1980, we weren’t there nor Soviets in 84, I guess it could be said about those sportsmen of lore that the world had gone and conquered their sport.
No one retrieves the football from the enemy. Fourth 2016 saw us in Rio de Janeiro, the lavish games and the people’s dinero and Ryan Locke. These scary scrape who could forget such a narrow list. But they say that sport unites the world. And so it was, we’ve watched a twirl, the centuries drama in truth.
It’s greatest. Oh, sportsmanship, passivity. My R’s.
Okay, let’s go home. I love the humor. Zachary. What is your poem about? My poem is really about, uh, some of the more absurd and, uh, or, or particularly dangerous moments in Olympic history and the way in which we seem to idolize the Olympics, but also how, how, how. How ridiculous and terrible. Some of these events can be right, right.
And the ways they can be misused. Right. Exactly. So, Bob, let’s, let’s turn to you on that humorous note, but serious one as well. Uh, w w what, what is the Olympic movement about where does it start? And, uh, how, how do we get to this moment where the Olympics have become this, this huge commercialized enterprise?
Where does this all begin? It begins on the 19th century. Uh, needless to say, when Baron Cooper is conceiving this, uh, Possibility of what he calls, reviving me Olympic games, but in truth, this is a bit of what we call in prison ideology. And, uh, one doesn’t see much of this when one goes through or listens to an opening ceremony, the link is always to ancient Greece in the so-called cradle of democracy, which of course itself is as you know, Contested concept.
Uh, but what happens is that, uh, Cuba tans, a French aristocrat, his country loses the Franco-Prussian war. He becomes convinced that that’s because young people are not at physically fit and they don’t do sports. And so here’s the, the real Genesis of it. He travels around the world and one of the first places he goes to his grave.
And so really the Genesis of the Olympic movement is not really ancient Greece. He doesn’t take a trip one day and sit there in Olympia and have this idea flashed into his mind. He goes to the rugby school and towards the other so-called public schools of, uh, of great Britain where the young, uh, British elites go through it as these are the secondary institutions of high.
These are institutions of secondary education. And it’s there that we see sport emerging beginning to go from wild kind of violent activities to things that are rule-bound and also are competitive and are seen as a way of producing young men who will lead the nation and also lead the empire. So that’s where public schools, the subdural public schools emerge and that’s the real basis.
Uh, for a Cooper cons inspiration, although it doesn’t get mentioned in opening ceremony, at least it didn’t until 2012. When of course the games were written and it wasn’t mentioned quite specifically. So what happens then, then is that all of these young gentlemen are amateurs, right? They don’t do this for them.
Over time. And of course of the 19th century, we see, especially in the last decades as an influx of working people, working men primarily, uh, and I should say that when these sports are created in the public schools, these are all male institutions that these institutions are then challenged by massive numbers in the millions of working men who were primarily interested in soccer and seek to in golf or wind up in golfing, uh, the young men from the elite school.
So the response to them is a series of federations that emerge in the latter part of the 19th century in various specific sports rowing. Uh, what we call track and field, uh, football, w what the world calls football and, uh, Cooper. Intervention is a response to the fact that all of these proletarians are mucking about.
And the beautiful thing that he sees, the British elite having been created. Okay. Soviet Olympic movement emerges from Wally’s international federations. What he does is tries to organize them and, uh, Establish a set of institutions, at least the beginning of a set of institutions, which will evolve into the mat, the international Olympic committee.
And of course that’s what we see dealing with it. That this is a really helpful background, especially understanding in a sense, the grassroots origin. And the ways in which this is a movement that transcends different countries. Uh, David you’ve written a lot about the, the rise of nation states and, um, the sort of mobilization of societies, uh, for nation centered power in the early 20th century.
How does that overlap with this? Um, Japanese very quickly before I answer that more directly, add to what Bob said that, uh, uh, seminal work that is long since disappeared from, uh, uh, the young person’s bookshelf is Tom brown school. Which is the a really, it’s a novel, uh, based on the rugby experience. And it’s, uh, it’s a really essential expression of the ennobling.
What role of sports for, uh, for young middle class and upper middle-class men. Um, but very a nation, uh, the national element of the Olympics emerges very early on and, uh, uh, really to the consternation of the, of the IOC. Uh, national controversies one that, that I was just looking around, that I seen mentioned in the memoirs of a Russian diplomat who was stationed to Sweden in the, uh, in the early 1980s.
Uh, is the Olympics in stock when we’re, uh, Bob correct me, but it’d be that’s problem. Normies, big Deb debut. And there’s a normie is a fin and, and a grand don’t. You have Finland, Finland as a unit in the Russian empire is a constituent element, the Russian empire and the fins won’t have to fly a Finnish flag.
And this is something that comes to the diplomats and eventually quashed, but apparently creates a lot of bad feeling. But, uh, uh, of course after world war II, Uh, the national element despite, uh, people’s, uh, wish to, uh, to try and overcome it. In some ways in the peace conferences, but obviously national self-determination becomes a really important consideration.
And if your war politics and, uh, and it becomes a, it becomes a really vibrant course, but it’s something that goes back to the middle of the 19th century, uh, as with Bob’s public school, boys is, uh, in the aspiring nations of, uh, of the hatchery empire, especially, but even before German unification, The idea of athletics and its association with the expression of a distinctive national spirit is very widespread.
Whether it’s the fatter, yarns and gymnastics movements or the young, the young Falcons and their various offshoots in the, in the various. Uh, nationalities of Hasbro empire, uh, the boy Scouts and Robert Baden-Powell are supposed to instill certain, uh, national virtues in their, uh, in their accolades. So, uh, what happens after world war one is simply an exacerbation and the, uh, in, uh, uh, uh, concentration of this, uh, uh, the sense of national distinctiveness and national achievement that of course, uh, receives much stronger expression because it stayed in place in inform of competence.
And, uh, uh, Zach’s Zachary’s Palm referred to the 36 Olympics. That was, uh, that was designed from the outset to, uh, to be that type of festival. Uh, uh, we could point to the world cup, which is emerging at this time as well. And, uh, it. Uh, I’m going to put it sort of a parallel form for the expression of this type of, uh, uh, national distinction.
And, and that is, uh, for all the participants for all the participants societies, as a way of trying to, uh, as a way of, uh, expressing some sort of unity that transcends. Is it w if we put aside the roots of amateurism that people see as transcending, the other divisions in society. So, uh, it’s been a strong element throughout and as we know, continues to be so, and Bob, just following on David’s really insightful comments, um, to, to what extent does this, um, international element.
Survive the, the experiences of 36, um, and, and other moments when the Olympics are so, so clearly tied up with international competition. I mean, we’ve all seen the images of Jesse Owens, uh, in 36 and the, the, the Hitler I audience. Um, and then, you know, as you’ve written about so well during the cold war, um, these issues are clearly attached to competition between the United States and the Soviet union and different worlds systems.
So to what extent does the international angle, uh, an element survive or is that more the veneer over there? Uh, well, let’s backtrack a tiny bit. I was about to Bhutan was really passed very nicely by, uh, from not so much from me to David, with David picking up on it goes to the next, uh, One of the two, in fact, the really two fundamental aspects to the international Olympic committee when it forms is one that this is an amateur competition.
So this is a way to keep people who can not afford to do the sporting activity on their own, uh, out of sport. And secondly, the question of nature. Uh, so nation obviously implies politics at some level. And so there is this intention that somehow sport and politics did not mix. And so over time, not it’s great.
The Olympics take on the nation as being their fundamental organizing unit. Once you. The cat is out of the bag of whatever metaphor you want to use and, uh, it becomes politicized. And so that’s where we get to the kinds of things that David was talking about today. One distinction, I think it’s important to make is that the thinking was made like Uber, tan, others between German.
Mass exercise in so-called corporate and competitive sports, usually ball games, which were what the British it kind of as the Arabic competition, not competition contribution to the emergence of sport. And the Olympics are a kind of a combination of the two and a process, which we see. Uh, certification and things that were in fact aesthetic activities, like the figure skating and gymnastics and things like that, which becomes sport of defied.
And. So there’s an interesting tension, I think in Cooper test straddling of the English model and the German model, the German model goes back again to the late 19th century where you have in Germany, this obsession with Helen. You know, uh, phylo, Hellenism expeditions all over the world and Arctic illogical gigs, bringing back things from the so-called then third world to the so-called first world.
And that has its roots in the German part of the story. Uh, and basically what, uh, Quba tank comes to focus on ancient Greece is to bring the Germans into what he sees as a way of contributing to world peace by having the English and the Germans who are in an arms race at this point, find a basis for cooperation.
Uh, David, uh, just, uh, building on these comments on, on how the Germans and others, uh, adopt the Olympics as a, as a way of showcasing, uh, their, their comp competitive urge and their ability to compete with other societies. Uh, why do the communist countries in particular, the Soviet union in east Germany, why do they seem to put such inordinate emphasis?
Uh, upon the Olympics to the point of, uh, and of course this happens in the United States as well, but it seems more extreme, especially in the east German case, uh, the use of doping, uh, and, and the commitment of resources in a very strained, uh, budget environment to competition. What relationship, if any, is there between that and the, the communist regimes themselves.
Uh, again, before I’ll build on a point that Bob made is, uh, if, uh, your listeners might have to understand how they can, uh, see inaction the blending of the German and the British, uh, attitudes in the sport, uh, Bob’s rate you look at figure skating, gymnastics, especially random rhythmic gymnast. But the mass gatherings of the athletes before and after the opening and closing ceremonies and in a lot of countries, most recently, Beijing in 1908, those big flashcard displays.
Right. And, uh, uh, the, uh, the mass choreography sort of Busby Berkeley meets a God knows what, but. Um, in terms of, uh, in terms of the use of sport to acclimatize the system, I think, uh, we see that first with, uh, Nazi Germany and, uh, triumph of the will and it’s, uh, and, and again, the Italian sides in the, in the world cup that, that these are supposed to embody a certain national principle.
They’re supposed to represent a system, an entirely, uh, integrated way of producing the eternity. And, uh, and it’s supposed to be held to be as helpful. Uh, demonstrably superior by its competitive, uh, ag. Competitive success in the new arena, but also the general physical fitness and the physical superiority of their specimen.
This is all tied up with eugenics and miss America, pageants and, and, uh, movements like this as well. But it’s a very powerful and widespread phenomenon, but on the actual, uh, its role in, in, in Soviet and the Soviet style socialist states, Bob is really your expert and I’ll yield the floor. I accept that and go add nuance in order to a perhaps slightly query with you.
Hitler was not a big sports fan. No, I know he was interested only in boxing and he, in fact, Uh, very much uncomfortable with the Olympic movement because it was internationalist these photos similar to the league of nations. And of course we know what we did with that. Uh, and so he had to be convinced by gerbils and others, that this was a useful thing.
And really, uh, the complexity here is that gerbils used it as a way to normalize and, and kind of downplay the racial aspects of this. And this was of course a very, uh, Tricky moment because here they come to, to power, they do all these awful things in the three-year period where they haven’t done the final solution yet.
So we have to be careful and not conflating all these things together. Uh, but then what happens is the Olympics. Take place. Uh, I would argue that Jesse Owens was a kind of an exception to the larger rule as, as you described it of, of German superiority in German fitness, but also they downplayed the antisemitism.
And you remember there was an attempt to boycott the Olympics in 1930. And so in response to that, uh, and let it be said to be, yeah. Uh, committee was very much in favor of defending the Nazis about their approach to the Olympics, but nevertheless, they try to come off as appearing normal. And the reason that’s important is because if you’re looking at what happens during the Spanish civil war, where there’s this, uh, Intervention on the part of the book, the Nazis and the fascists on the part of the Franco side, but also more importantly at Munich.
Uh, there’s this nice in that you can make peace with, uh, Mr. Hitler that he’s normal. And he had these normal Olympic games as part of that. And so you could argue, and I think. One would have to be careful about it more carefully than I’m being here. Uh, this, uh, link between a kind of ambivalent attitude, uh, tour, uh, international sport.
And what was in fact passing for international politics at the time. And so I guess the question Bob, I want to come to you to you on first is, you know, to what extent does this history, and it’s a very complex, but also in some ways a history where the ideals don’t match the reality and that’s not unique of course, to international sports.
Uh, but to what extent does that legacy, uh, poison or at least. The Olympic movement, uh, coming into the end of the cold war and our current world. Uh, I think I know you’ve written about this as has David, uh, the 1980 us boycott of the Olympics after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and Knights 84 retaliatory boycott by the Soviet union and the controversies today, uh, over, uh, who should participate in and who should, how does this history matter for the way we think about the contemporary Olympics and contemporary matters?
I hardly know where to begin. Um, It turns out that, um, Olympic sport in the Soviet union was not that popular with the Soviet people’s plural. That, uh, the only sports that I’ve written about that were successful, spectator sports were. Soccer, I sock it to a certain extent and then basketball third. And the other interesting thing about it is that despite the importance of women’s sport in the Olympic competition, uh, Soviet men could have cared less than they did not attend women’s sports.
And then women themselves did not attend women’s sports with a few exceptionable moments. So there is a way in which I would argue that Olympism, uh, can find a comfortable fit. Uh, in its grandiosity and its pretension in its formal apolitical FISM, uh, with, uh, some of the ways that the Soviets went about organizing sport.
And so, uh, I would also say that, uh, one has to be careful about the world cup. And this is true. The Olympics too starts out. The work world cup starts in 1930. Then it’s held in Italy in 1934. It’s complicated by first of all, the fact that it’s not overwhelmingly popular largest arena, uh, for that, uh, event was held 20,000, uh, several of them.
People who are, uh, on the Italian team are actually from south America and have Italian roots, but are in fact citizens of Argentina and Sheila for the most part. So the links that you’re talking about, art, uh, tricky, and I think they worked in different ways. I think what the thing David’s already mentioned, this, that the Soviets come to is that both they and the Olympics share the idea of modernity.
And then the other aspect that they share is social improvement. These are liberal concepts. You’re going to faster, higher, stronger, whatever the order of those are, uh, is something that we can see as part of a liberal democratic, the striving to make the world better. It won’t in terms of the cold war.
Um, uh, and again, Bob’s written about this, but, uh, it’s interesting hearing you, uh, raised the white cards because, uh, and I’ve got to speak up for, uh, mine home and native land. The, uh, the boy card really becomes a weapon in 1976. And, uh, correct. And has, and has a couple of elements to it. First in terms of cold war politics, there was a big kerfuffle over whether or not Taiwan consent its own send its own delegation to Montreal.
And by that time, the PC that mainland China, China, Chinese, uh, kindness, Republic or kindness. Is recognized by all the restaurant powers. And so this becomes one of the first test points of then limits of that recognition. And vis-a-vis Beijing’s claims over Taiwan, but the bigger thing is, um, all the pretty much all the contingents from Africa and, uh, Sophia boycott the Olympics to protest the admission of New Zealand and Australia, which a man at which have continued to maintain sporting relationships with us.
Despite, uh, a Commonwealth ban and other sanctions against South Africa, uh, due to a partake. And, uh, uh, and this really cuts into the, uh, sort of the allure of the Montreal games. And then of course you get Moscow and, uh, and then Los Angeles intern. And it they’re interesting Olympics do a compare in the cold war context because obviously Moscow.
As a response, the Moscow boycotted come as a response to, uh, uh, the Afghan invasion earlier on, uh, and this is one of Carter’s last acts and that doesn’t in joy, the support of all the Western powers as well. The natal powers, there are athletes competing on behalf of great Britain, as I recall, Bob and, uh, uh, other, uh, European other needles.
Yeah, but, and what, from our point of view, um, Moscow is a, is a inappropriate disgrace, uh, of the Soviet camp to make themselves a real player to, to, to live up to their aspirations for parity, cultural and military parody with, uh, especially the United States. But the Los Angeles Olympics are really, uh, they revel in the boycott, uh, and mounted by the Warsaw packs.
This is a nature states, uh, partly because it leaves the field open clear for at least a feel clear for an America overwhelming American dominance and a loudly celebrated American dominance. I should say. Uh, in, in the games and, uh, celebration, given the, uh, financing model that the, uh, Ueberroth brought into play, it’s a celebration of certain type of capitalism.
Uh, it’s a very consonant with the Reagan era so that the, uh, the LA committee manages to mobilize every available message, uh, in the context of the cold war to, uh, to show the superiority of, uh, of a certain type of capitalist system. Now, That’s a denouement that starts to kick in with the Seoul Olympics, where by that time, people are willing to admit that the use of a performance enhancing substances, a scapegoat or not speak of the culprit here being a Canadian athlete, Ben Johnson, uh, who won the a hundred meters, uh, uh, but it also ways mirror, uh, It also brings the forest suspicions and actually the knowledge behind the scenes that Soviet sports clients had been figuring out chemical ways to improve and enhance performance since at least the late 1950s and focused on, on one aspect of the two great, uh, counter-arguments of Western powers against the Eastern European and Soviet athletes as well.
Uh, their willingness to go to any extreme, to win and to play fast and loose with the rules and which is connected with the other shear is, uh, the continuing insistence on a model of amateurism that we generally associate with Avery bun. Right. Uh, the, the Soviet and their allies, uh, floated these by, uh, by really having sham Richers.
Was it phrased at the time that they, uh, they had professional athletes who had the, a veneer of amateurism, both of them. So, uh, by the lady, 1980s, all of these things have come to the fore, Bob, sorry to hog the floor. Well, Bobby, before we get to, I wanted, I wanted to sort of move us, uh, to what I think is the natural question to follow from this.
And the question we, in a sense, always like to close on, uh, which is how, how can our listeners who care about, uh, many of the ideals that you articulated. So well, Bob and David associated with the Olympic movement, uh, international peace and cooperation, amateurism. Physical fitness, uh, how, when we’re watching the Olympics, uh, how can we try to support those values?
And deemphasize all the polluting values that we’ve talked about here, the nation state competition, the doping, the cheating, uh, how can we make sure we’re a part of the positive and not the negative side, is that possible, but, uh, well, to, uh, build on what David said, I think the best way, uh, to. Appreciate it and make sense of it is the famous, uh, line that share has with the Nick cage in that, whatever.
Forget about it, snap out of it. There’s talented people competing with each other for roughly, uh, what is part of a world monoculture of professional athletes of one sort or another to various degrees, depending on the sport. And just enjoy that. And. Understand that Olympism is an ideology that has its roots in some things, including empire that are fairly dicey and, uh, are definitely compromising the concerns that we have in the present world, too.
I think I agree entirely. Bob says, he said it very well plaster for most fans now. Uh, and there’s always going to be that national element. So you want to take pride in your own countries, athletes, but it’s really become a festival for a lot of sports in which athletes work really, really hard thinking of water, sports, and track and field and seldom get attention.
And this is their chance to shine. And like you think you’ve seen bull, do you think of the American. I think the American swimmers, I think of, uh, uh, uh, Jackie Joyner, Kersey and, uh, and the fantastic female athletes we’ve seen from all over the world. Uh, it’s a chance to give them their place in the sun and to appreciate how good they are.
And don’t forget the most important athlete of the entire cold war. Wilma Rudolph. Absolutely. 1960. Yeah. So how does the meaning of this moment then change? Uh, going into 2020, uh, in 2021, actually at the Tokyo, at the Tokyo Olympics. How does this meaning change in a time of coronavirus and really the first time since world war II, that the Olympics have been canceled or postponed.
Bob, why don’t you start us off? You couldn’t ask an easy one. Yeah. I think what you’re seeing here is, uh, I’m learning about this now because I’m reading a book by a Russian author on the 1980 Olympics and just the sheer enormity of putting on in the Olympics and the investment and time and effort, not just by the athletes, but the organizers as well on the sponsors and the security police and the construction.
Yeah. Yeah, you name it, the such a massive investment that it leads to a kind of a carelessness. I would argue a matters of safety that, you know, so much has been put into this effort that the idea of having it company, nothing is so repugnant that they’re willing to take these serious risks. Not only with the athletes, but can be organized.
I think about the media there that, you know, they’re in enormous numbers. I mean, there’s 10,000 media there. I was part of it at one point I worked for CBS during that night. Uh, 98, uh, and a winter games. And there’s just some, any reporters broadcast and, you know, uh, print running around, they’re exposing themselves asking questions, opening mouths, being in mixed zones.
It’s all of a piece. Yep. But you put it perfectly. I agree. Thank you. And where, where do you see us going from here? Um, is this, is this a new moment in the, in the Olympic story? Is this a new moment in international sports or are we sort of still stuck in the same? Well, we’re stuck in a really interesting new cycle, right?
Because the, uh, the winter Olympics are scheduled for, uh, for Infor early night, early 20, 22. And they’re scheduled for Beijing. Who’s a selection, uh, elicited a great deal of consternation a because it’s not really winter Tom B because of the environmental. Devastation in which the athletes would have to be competing, but most recently, because the internet mobilization or international opinion about the vision, government’s treatment of the regular population in the syndrome.
And, uh, and, and there’s already talk, I’m seeing talk up in Canada about the possibility of boycotting, uh, as a protest. Um, Beijing’s high handed policy. So, uh, we might be entering sort of fume state going back to the, uh, the cold war in a very new. So, let me make a personal point of self promotion, uh, here, uh, prior to the sec, our cold war project, that we’ve hinted at a bit here.
Our second volume is going to be on the boycott era. Uh, and it starts of course, with 76. Truth be told us boycotts even before then. And then they’re also boycotts that are out of the Olympic context as well. But this has come up of all people. Mitt Romney had a very interesting opinion piece in the New York times about how to approach this question of boycotting.
And he, I thought, uh, quite carefully and in a measured way, but, uh, suggested different ways of protesting without necessarily penalizing the athletes. Yeah. So something that. So Zachary as a young person who watches sports and who’s surrounded by others, who do, do you see the Olympics as a, as a positive opportunity to bring out some of these issues?
Or, or how do you have the young people that, you know, approach these. Well, I think at the very least the Olympics is in many ways, uh, young people’s first experience with the world as a whole. It’s, it’s one of the few areas that young people, uh, in the exciting way, get to see all the countries of the world and all the peoples of the world, uh, lined up and, and competing.
So I think in that sense, it is sort of a positive experience, but I think it’s also important to keep these larger political issues in mind. And it’s important to have that background. Right. And, and you have a kind of absurdist view of it, at least as your poem indicated. Right? It’s very strange. Bob and David, as, as your last words and thoughts, uh, how, how do you personally view the Olympics?
What, what will you be thinking as you’re watching the Olympics this year? Can I quote Zack? You may Watson sports awards since more David. Yeah, I agree. It’s interesting looking at sort of the institutional machinations and the commercial element is going on that actually underwrites the whole operation, but the actual competition is always exciting and, uh, and I can’t help.
I agree, 100%. I, I find myself intellectually uncomfortable, but emotionally caught up in it, nonetheless. And, and I think one of the points of our pockets yes. Weekend and week out is that a democracy, uh, is not about a set of, uh, static principles and static behaviors. It’s about a constant adjustment to a variety of political, social and economic pressures.
And, and in some ways the Olympics are our kaleidoscope. Uh, for that. And we all benefit from watching and thinking rigorously as we’re watching and enjoying and, and David and Bob, you have given us so much background and quite frankly, so much knowledge that we can bring to our watching to enjoy it more and think more critically about what we’re seeing.
So thank you, both. Uh, Bob and David for joining us today. Thank you, Jeremy. It was fun. This was a lot of thank you. And I, I encourage everyone to, uh, find, uh, Bob and David’s work and read it. Uh, we’ll have citations on, on the website as always. And Zachary, thank you for your humor and, uh, ironic disposition today toward the Olympics.
And thank you most of all to our loyal listeners. Thank you for joining us for this week of this is democracy. This podcast is produced by the liberal arts, its development studio and the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris.
Codine stay tuned for a new episode every week. You can find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. See you next time.