This is Democracy – Episode 153: Democracy Activism

[0:00:04 Speaker 0] Mhm. Mhm. This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week is a real special treat. We’re joined by someone who I’ve gotten to know a little bit in the last few weeks and she is I think one of the most exciting, interesting and unique democracy activists in our society today. This is Alison Gill. Welcome Allison,

[0:00:46 Speaker 1] thank you so much, jeremy. It’s nice to be here.

[0:00:49 Speaker 0] Alison is a veteran, she’s a PhD, she’s a former government executive. We’ll talk about that, a comedian and author and as she says on her website, she is a staunch advocate for Democratic resistance. We’re going to talk about what that means, her mission uh to expose. And I think in form a wider audience about what’s really happening in our democracy. She she’s the executive producer and host of a number of podcasts. My favorite because of the title and the subject matter Mueller. She wrote as in robert Mueller she wrote. And it’s a podcast that employs expertise, insights and absurdity to expose trump republican corruption and particularly connections between trump trump supporters and the Russian government. And there’s more and more evidence of that every day. In addition to evidence of other authoritarian abuses of power by trump and his supporters, Alison is dedicated to really exposing the misuse of information and informing the public about facts in theory, rather than michigan’s and disinformation and propaganda. Truth is her goal and facts are her tools and I really encourage listeners to go to her podcast, Mueller she wrote is my favorite. The daily beans is fantastic, and I think she has like 6000 other podcasts she’s doing, I don’t know how you doing. Alison were so really uh happy that you’re able to spend a few minutes with us today.

[0:02:22 Speaker 1] Yeah, no, I’m really glad to be here. I’m glad to talk to your audience.

[0:02:26 Speaker 0] So before we turn to our discussion with Alison, uh we have, of course, mr Zachary’s scene setting poem for our episode this week, as always. What’s the title of your episodes of your of your poems?

[0:02:37 Speaker 2] AKI,

[0:02:39 Speaker 0] uh Mika mocha. We’re doing a little hebrew. I love it. Go ahead.

[0:02:44 Speaker 2] Where were we? That time when we were walking by the sea, It was bright and a Siegel came swooping low between our heads. Like it wanted to snatch the love from inside or uneven hearts, our hands within each others were broken, Our elbows cut and cracked with salt. We walked down on a boardwalk and turned our backs to the sea, watching the plane’s descend towards the city 40 years across the land. Where was it then, My Love. Do you remember quite some time has passed since you held my hand on that bench in front of the sea and a butterfly almost hit the railing of the promenade wings. Weary of following our ill fated stars. You held my hand and we stare up sweetly at the sunset. For by then it was

[0:03:29 Speaker 0] almost dark

[0:03:30 Speaker 2] until you began to laugh. And I laughed too. And that night we drank honey and wine and left our suitcases empty for the next 430 years of bitterness.

[0:03:43 Speaker 0] Your poem Zachary evokes so many different images of society and struggle. What is your poem really

[0:03:51 Speaker 2] about my poem is about those moments after a great

[0:03:54 Speaker 0] trial, after

[0:03:55 Speaker 2] a harrowing experience,

[0:03:56 Speaker 0] after

[0:03:57 Speaker 2] a metaphorical parting of the sea when it really feels like the world might and possibly could be right again. But but also this realization that there’s so much work to be done, so many more tears to be shed and and so much so much more that has to be done before we can finally reach freedom.

[0:04:15 Speaker 0] And and are you hopeful about that?

[0:04:17 Speaker 1] I think I

[0:04:18 Speaker 2] am. But I think it’s always a bitter

[0:04:19 Speaker 0] journey. Well, uh in that context, as we think about the long journey to justice and democracy, whatever that is. Allison your your life has has in many ways been about this. It seems to me whether you wanted that or

[0:04:34 Speaker 1] not. Yeah, I had about 12 different images in my head that flash over there was the pandemic insurrection. Uh some of the things that I’ve been through that was that was really incredible.

[0:04:48 Speaker 0] Uh so, so Alison, just to get our audience a better sense of what you’ve been through and how it’s shaped you and shaped the work you do. Uh, maybe we go back to your experience in the Navy and, um, if you can talk about that a bit and why you left the Navy?

[0:05:06 Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah, sure. I joined the Navy and it was 1994. I had run out of college money, you know, first time college, uh, and my, my father who had passed away due to exposure to Agent Orange, eventual um, illnesses connected with his exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam. Uh, and he left me a little bit of money, A little bit of modest amount of money to go to college, blew through that. Uh, Then I tried to be an actress for about six minutes and said, this isn’t working. So I joined the Navy. And, um, you know, my dad was in the Air Force, my grandpa was in the Navy, his brother was in the Navy. We, you know, we have a long history and uh, and it’s not an option to not go to college in my family. So I joined, joined the Navy and I was one of the first women back into the nuclear program. Uh, you know, women were allowed in in for one year in 1979. And then they stopped it and then brought them back in 94 to be able to enroll at Naval Nuclear Power Training Command, which is one of the more difficult, if not the most difficult schools. It’s got the highest attrition rate in the military, at least, very difficult school to get through. But I made it in and arrived on base. It was me and a couple of other women in about 600 men and they were not happy to see us. So, um, they had to start taking sexual harassment training, sensitivity training. They had to change their parlance. You know, a lot of engineering parlance is mm sexual and dirty nature. And um, a lot of the names that they had for women and things like that. So they already didn’t like us, but I was only there for a few short months when I was out at a, after we graduated or close to being graduated from a school, I was a machinist, mate went to machinist mate, a school before power school in Orlando and npt see enable nuclear power training command. I went to a party first when I was invited to, I was like, oh cool. They like me. You really like me. I felt like, how old were you at the time? I was 19, no, I was 20 at the time. And uh well I had actually a little bit of a delay getting into school after boot camp. I was in the transient personnel unit for about five months. Uh And so I think I actually turned 21 right before I got there. So I arrived at the barracks, were at a party, we’re having drinks, and there was a guy there who was flirting with me and uh you know, we’re all wearing our dungarees, which are the high waisted bell bottom jeans and denim button up shirts with your name stenciled on the front. And uh things started to get very hazy for me. I didn’t I didn’t, I sort of lost track of time, woke up at about four in the morning and I was in considerable pain. I was not dressed, I couldn’t find my clothes and there was another sailor, one of my uh actually no I think it was an army guy next to me because we shared the base with the army and I sat up and I said I noticed I was bleeding and I said I don’t think I wanted to do that. And he looked at me and said oh are you are you going to cry rape now? And so I looked for my clothes and he I asked where they were, he laughed at me, I just grabbed a blanket, one of those wool blankets from the navy made in terra haute indiana. I remember wrapped it around myself and left and between the barracks where I was at and my barracks was the police station which were called um Mps and Master at Arms in the military. And I stopped in there and I went up to the window, they were behind plexiglass, you know, and it’s typical military building, painted brick walls, waxed, probably asbestos flooring. And I said to the person, I think that I was raped. And they led me down the hallway to a room where they sat me down and it was, it was an interrogation room, one of those metal pendant lights. Uh, and it was sort of flickering. And then there was this metal desk and someone came and started asking me questions. They asked me what I was wearing, if I was drinking, if I was married or if I had a boyfriend and if we were in a fight, they asked me if I was flirting with this person who I’m alleging raped me. Uh, and mind you, I’m not dressed, I’m bleeding and I’m in a lot of pain. And after that interrogation was over, somebody else came in and started asking who started, They started telling me the the dangers of filing a false rape report. They said, you know, if you file a false rape report, you could be, um, you can get a lot of trouble. You could be for lying. You could be court martialed. And and I said, well, what what what on what charge? And they said, well this person you’re accusing of raping you is married. So you would be charged with adultery because he was married and I would then be dishonorably discharged. I would lose my signing bonus, my rate, my rank, I could be struck down. I could lose all my benefits, healthcare, etcetera. And so then they looked at me and said, so you know, why don’t we just chalk this up to what it is? This was a bad decision on your part.

[0:11:00 Speaker 0] You’re kidding me. They, this is just hours after the occurrence. They’re pressuring you just to drop it all.

[0:11:06 Speaker 1] Yeah, 100%. And I believed them. I said, yeah, you know what? I just made a bad choice. I shouldn’t have been, there shouldn’t have been drinking, shouldn’t have flirted with anyone. And I believed it in the core of my soul and then then I was scared to tell anybody about it because I thought I would lose, my school is very prestigious school. I thought I could lose being in the navy. I thought, you know, if I didn’t get dishonorably discharged, I could be, I could have my rate taken away. I would be an undesignated strike around a boat somewhere swabbing decks. So I didn’t tell anybody. I did go to sick call that morning. Um, I got some Motrin, I told them I fell down and got some Motrin. And I also had heard a rumor that if you took like an entire month’s worth of birth control at one time, you could prevent pregnancy from happening. Uh, and I just kept my mouth shut about it and put my head down and went on with my schoolwork, graduated from uh, power school with a, with a four point out, which is really hard to do. Um, but that’s, you know, I later learned in life, that’s how I cope with trauma. Uh, I, I just focus. And so the way I got out of the Navy, was that something terrible happened to my feet? And they said they gave me the option of having surgery or getting out of the Navy. And, and you know, and I played it cool. I said, you know, I’m going to have to think about that. I’m really gonna I’m gonna need some time to think about that. But of course I didn’t need any time to think about that. But I came back to them a day or two later and opted to exit the military. Mhm.

[0:12:45 Speaker 0] And and then you spent some time I guess getting your PhD and out of government obviously jaded on the experience. But then you came back into government, which is extraordinary.

[0:12:57 Speaker 1] Yeah, that was I got out, got my bachelor’s, got my masters was working in hotel and restaurant management, putting together phone centers for for boutique shrinky hotels. And then Obama hit the scene and he started to campaign for president and he pulled the old JFK. If you remember, he said, you know, be a service to your country, ask not what your country can do for you, We need to be of service. And I was very motivated by that. But I couldn’t join the military again. I had already been considered a disabled veteran and I was also old. Uh, well for navy standards in the, you know, in the early two thousands. Uh, and so I said, well I’m gonna try to get a job with the V. A. So I applied uh, and it took six months to get a GS five clerk job within with an M. B. A. And once I, once I got that job I started my PhD, I decided that’s the career I wanted to have until I retired.

[0:14:01 Speaker 0] And um, as I understand it, I mean you moved into doing something incredibly important work uh in California for the V. A. Correct?

[0:14:10 Speaker 1] Yeah. Yeah. I created I worked my way up from A GS 52 Gs nine. They put me in charge of the call center. We did a telecommunications redesign that that went so well and did so well that they adopted that in other visions, veteran integrated service networks across the country. So I traveled a bit too to teach that to other health health administration services to to deploy. Then we created a medical support assistant university and that is now used in most of the integrated networks across the country. Um, then I got a call up to L. A. They said, hey you did so good with the call center come and work up here for us. And I did. And then I wanted to move back to SAN Diego and I noticed there was a job available in SAN Diego to work to be embedded with the department of Defense to work for tricare because the V. A. Is a tri care network provided and move back down. And by that time I was a GS 14 which was the same as. I don’t know if you remember lisa page of peter struck and lisa page fame. Sure. But that’s that’s where I ended up. And it was while I was there that that donald trump was elected if you want to put elected in quotes and Mueller was appointed. And I started I started a podcast about it.

[0:15:39 Speaker 0] So so why did you start this podcast? Why why were you so um committed to while working for government uh exposing and reflecting on what you saw as the misdeeds of those who are ostensibly your bosses.

[0:15:55 Speaker 1] I was so fascinated by the Mueller appointment and the parallels between the Mueller appointment and Watergate. And I remember you know the historical relevance of it I thought was just massive. And I remember watching there’s an old 2013 I think documentary from MSNBC about Watergate called All the President’s Men revisited, right. And uh they were showing that in october of 2017 on on MSNBC. And I think they were showing that because they just kind of wanted to illustrate the parallels between Watergate and the trump Russia investigation, which we now know as crossfire hurricane. And I I sat there and I thought, you know, I bet in 20 years, 30 years they’re going to be doing documentaries on the Mueller investigation. And I want to be a part of that. I think the historical significance of this is massive. But I’m not a journalist. I don’t have a television show. I’m, you know, I’m not on the radio and it seemed like the uh the way to break in was was with a podcast. So that’s that’s what I did.

[0:17:03 Speaker 0] And uh what sort of information did you dig up and and circulate through through your podcast? I know you had a large following very quickly also.

[0:17:13 Speaker 1] Yeah, well, I think we cornered the market. I think we were the only all Mueller all the time show. And you know, I recorded the first show when the first indictments dropped against Manafort and Gates. And I said, all right, here we go, this is good, this is big, this is huge. And so we, I grabbed a couple microphones set up on my kitchen table. And basically what I did was I would find all of the Mueller reporting in the world and I would sift through it and then I would present it in a, I would curate it sort of, I guess is the best way to say that I would break it down into digestible bites. I would make it funny. Uh, and I, because I thought that it was it was very important to make it entertaining so that people would listen because the Mueller report isn’t jazzy. You know, there’s not a lot of it’s, you know, it’s not a bumper sticker. It’s not you have, you have to present it in a way that people will listen. And I thought it was just so important that as many people as I could get to follow this information and to know what’s going on as it was happening, you know, in real time is that’s what, that’s what we did,

[0:18:29 Speaker 2] what kind of problems were posed about creating a podcast about the moral corruptness of of in many ways your institutional

[0:18:37 Speaker 0] leaders.

[0:18:37 Speaker 1] Yeah, that was the tough part because I worked for the executive branch of the government and that wasn’t lost on me because I actually got to take the executive oath of office, the same one that Obama took minus the word president on the same day he took it january 20th 2000 and nine which is also my birthday. So you know the the importance there wasn’t lost on me. So I actually the challenges are you know, I mean first of all we have the Hatch Act right which which trump modified multiple times to include social media and then to include his name specifically. You know he said we know the Hatch Act, it says you know you can’t campaign for or against somebody running for political office and we know trump filed the day he was inaugurated to run again in 2020 so he was you know you couldn’t say anything and he went too far as as far as to say you can’t say anything bad about trump which is covered in the Hatch Act, but he wanted his name in there. He just wants his name on everything. And so I I made sure that I only, I hired a lawyer to advise me on how not to run afoul of the Hatch Act. And I went by a pseudonym. I went by my initials A. G. And did everything that I could to make sure it was in my free time and that it didn’t run afoul of any ethics considerations or policies or Hatch Act violations or anything. And I followed, I followed the letter of the law.

[0:20:11 Speaker 0] And how did you for yourself and your friends? How did you conceive of what you were doing as part of public service? I don’t think you saw it as not public service. I think you saw it as essential to your public service. Right. So how did you think about that?

[0:20:24 Speaker 1] Uh, well, I mean, it’s interesting because it wasn’t until after the Mueller, she wrote podcast shuttered, We went dark for a year. Uh, and you know, the last, basically the last year that Bill Barr was in charge of the Justice Department and during that time somebody had asked me, it was right around the time you remember when trump called war dead and veterans suckers and losers? Yes, of

[0:20:53 Speaker 0] course, multiple times, he said that

[0:20:55 Speaker 1] he did. And I put a tweet out that said, you know, my, my my grandpa was shot down World War Two trump, thinks he’s a sucker. My dad succumbed to exposure to Agent Orange, I guess he’s a loser. I I’m a disabled veteran, but I didn’t lose a limb, so I can be in a parade according to trump because I don’t know if you remember, but he said he didn’t want any amputees to be in his veterans parades because it just looks sad. And so, you know, I put that tweet out Washington post grabbed it, it went viral and I got a lot of questions about people asking about my dad’s exposure to Agent Orange. And so I started researching because I didn’t know he was out of the Air Force before I was born and never talked about it, but I found out that he, he wasn’t, I thought he just went to Vietnam like a grunt sort of boots on the ground guy and was exposed to Agent Orange. But as it turns out, he was working at kenya and was trained at NORAD or Cheyenne Mountain. Uh, and he kind of did the war games stuff. He was part of tabletop exercises for preemptive nuclear strikes against Russia. And what he was doing in Vietnam was he was on Monkey Mountain, he was across enemy lines, setting up communications relay station. Then he was intercepting Russian Russian communications, translating them because he spoke Russian and then encrypting them, sending them to clark air force base in the Philippines and then shooting them out to the global communications network for the military for sigint signals intelligence. Uh and he I looked through a bunch of letters he wrote back home to his parents and, you know, he was very again very against communism and autocracy. And he was so uh pure in his conviction about spreading democracy and defending democracy against tyranny. And I thought, wow, I guess it’s I guess it’s in my DNA

[0:22:51 Speaker 0] it certainly sounds like it. Um Alison, how do you respond to those conspiratorial thinkers on the right? Who, you know, come up with all of these um conspiracies for explaining how, I don’t know antifa is setting up these stories about Russia etcetera Mueller somehow was working for them. Um without yourself recreating those conspiracies on the left on the other side because you’re finding the secret wiring you’re fired. Finding the secret motivations and that can sound like conspiracy to some also.

[0:23:25 Speaker 1] Oh yeah I mean even early on I’ve been dragged multiple times on on social media for for being they call me uh blue and non or you know Russia Russia gate or or you know the Russia hoax and I’m spreading conspiracy theories but you know I guess slow and steady wins the race. We you know we had the Mueller report. Not too many people read it and then we had the S. S. C. I. The sissy Senate Select Committee on Intelligence five volume Review and Counter Intelligence report on the Russia investigation which pretty much reads like a transcript of my podcast from beginning to end. And uh you know those kinds of things sort of trickle in overtime because you know the wheels of justice grind slowly and uh it just sort of I just keep going forward knowing that I was right and what I was doing was correct. Um And I try my best not to respond to those conspiracy theories because then a lot of times all they’re trying to do is get air from my reach. Do you know what I mean? Of course, yeah. And so I I usually just either I’ll debunk it publicly with documentary evidence or I’ll just ignore it completely. Mhm.

[0:24:47 Speaker 0] And what do you hope will come of your expose expose work? I mean, you’re you’re bringing out in the way we do is scholars also right? You’re following the evidentiary trail, You’re following the breadcrumbs and you’re assembling the story tirelessly. You really are tireless about putting it together so we can see how it all adds up um beyond the the importance of simply getting the truth out there and telling the story. What do you hope will come of this for democracy?

[0:25:20 Speaker 1] Well, I mean, I learned a huge lesson during my doctoral dissertation because I spent over a year on it, maybe almost two years and I was triangulating data and one of my data sets was corrupt. And so the best I could say was I don’t know, you know my question that I was trying to answer the answer was and we don’t really know. But I think the lesson there was the significant amount of information I added to the body of knowledge of the subject I was studying. And that is why I do what I do on this side of it as well. Because again, justice is so it’s tantric, right? And I don’t mean in a fun sexy way. I mean in a hot yoga kind of way, it’s uncomfortable and it takes a really long time. But to add significant information to the body of knowledge and to map out the unfolding of the Mueller investigation in the Russia investigation as it was happening in real time, I think is is what I added to the conversation and I’ll continue to do that how that helps democracy in the short term. That’s that’s a tough problem. Although I will say that once my podcast was investigated and I was removed from my job with the federal government, they did the trick, the Mick Mulvaney trick where they move your job across country. Um, but once that happened, they don’t have second level and third level thinking. Um, these autocrats, these republicans and I guess they didn’t realize that that would free me up from the Hatch Act, which would allow me to raise money for their opponents. And we did, um, uh, myself and a group of other podcasts, we raised about half a million dollars for biden Harris and Ausaf and Warnock and um, so, you know, they fired me, but I I fired them. So, so, uh, you know, I think that that is also aside from the body of knowledge contribution, I think that that was another just a financial contribution to get them out of office. Now. We just have to keep them out.

[0:27:30 Speaker 0] Sure. Sure. And do you think you’re winning?

[0:27:34 Speaker 1] It’s a it’s a it’s a slog, right? Um, I didn’t expect the insurrection. Um, I mean, I I thought they would attempt it, but I didn’t know that they had disabled the police force at that time and withheld the National Guard. Um And I know they’re still investigating whether that was intentional or not. I didn’t know Mike Flynn’s brother was in the room when the decisions were being made. Um But you know, because we we were also high at that morning of january six because also had one Warnock had one, we got the Senate, we got joe biden and without Camilla Harris. And then I’m just sitting down to watch something that’s never been televised before because it’s always just been this ministerial boring thing that that the vice president does in Congress, which is to certify the Electoral College and I’m watching it like this is different, this is the last thing. Uh And then we saw what we saw and it it was, I have to say and this is strong language, but it was like being raped all over again, wow,

[0:28:48 Speaker 0] why was it why was it so surprising to you and so painful to?

[0:28:54 Speaker 1] Well, I think it’s because democracy is so important uh to me and to all of us and to see it physically attacked at at the seat of democracy was it was just it was so hard to watch. And then of course we didn’t even see the worst of it until later until there’s still videos that are coming out that hadn’t been released because obviously they were part of open and ongoing investigations. And then you know, we watched the impeachment to right uh and and that video that they showed. Um yeah, it was just it was devastating. It was very hard to watch.

[0:29:44 Speaker 0] And it must be particularly hard for you also for what you’ve been through personally, but then also the number of individuals with military backgrounds who were involved in this, right?

[0:29:56 Speaker 1] Yeah, something like 10%. Um, there’s been a lot of interesting studies on those who invaded the capital and as it turns out, 86% men, most of them 35 to 45 years old, and most of them aren’t from rural red areas, there from blue areas. And it seems that the number one concern is what’s something something that scholars called the great replacement, fear of the great replacement, that, that white men are going to very soon in this country be a minority and they’re just extremely uncomfortable with that with that idea.

[0:30:27 Speaker 0] So where, where do you go from here? You’ve achieved? I think so much. Uh, and I have such high regard for the way you’ve helped to elucidate the facts. You, you’re playing the role of a public educator, you’ve been courageous in standing up to direct attacks, uh you know, in all kinds of dimensions in your life. Um and you’ve raised money and articulated a position as an alternative and as a hopeful future for our country, but of course there’s a lot of work to be done. So, so where do you go from here?

[0:31:01 Speaker 1] Um one of my goals here are just to continue to widen the audience and spread the word. I’m working on a book and um it will be going back out on the road now that, you know, things are starting to open up again uh to to basically, and you know, with the daily beans now, Mueller, she wrote his comeback, We’ve brought that podcast back because so much Mueller news is bubbling up to the surface again now that we have somebody reasonable running the Department of Justice. Uh, and so I’ll continue to cover that information. It wasn’t over when the Mueller report came out. And because it takes so long because justice takes so long and sometimes we have to settle. You know, I didn’t get to prosecute my rapist, but when I watch these harvey weinstein hearings, I feel a little justice by proxy and I think we’re going to have to, I want to help people, um, sort of be prepared for not getting to see trump, have cuffs slapped on him and pulled out of, you know, Bedminster or whatever, all that could happen. But you know, I just, I want, I want us all to be there for each other when we don’t quite get the justice that we want, but perhaps we get to justice that we need

[0:32:19 Speaker 0] and you think that’s important for democracy.

[0:32:21 Speaker 1] Yeah. I think one of the most important things is accountability here. And I hope Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice do the right thing, particularly with the obstruction of justice charges that Mueller testified to saying that he could be prosecuted after he leaves office, surprised the heck out of ken buck when he asked that question too and when he testified. But I think that accountability and you know, I’ve talked to some of my other colleagues and people I’ve had on the show like Joyce, Vance and Barb Mcquaid, um, and some former U. S. Attorneys and, and people like that who say number one thing we have to do to restore trust that the department of Justice is doing justice is accountability. That’s step one. We have to shine light on all this. And my whole goal here is to get everyone as many people as I can Just be loud enough to pressure the Department of Justice, the Senate, the House to do the right thing. Yes,

[0:33:16 Speaker 0] I can’t think of anything more important for every citizen to be thinking about. Uh as a historian, I’ll simply add that throughout our history. It has been public activists, some who think of themselves and act as activists, some who don’t, who have been responsible time and again for pushing our government to expose all kinds of misdeeds and to inform the public and after informing the public then to provide the tools for the Justice Department and other elements of law enforcement to act. It’s so crucial. Justice doesn’t just happen on its own. It requires, it requires foot soldiers, were all foot soldiers in some ways for that. And we have a long historical tradition. You don’t have to be a journalist, you don’t have to be uh bob Woodward to be doing this. Uh oh, in a certain way, I think of you, Alison as the bob Woodward or Seymour Hersh of the 21st century. Do you embrace that label?

[0:34:07 Speaker 1] What soon as I uh you know, let that settle through the filter of my imposter syndrome, I’ll let you know how I feel about. Uh but you know, timothy Snyder number two in his book on tyranny is to defend institutions. I picked one and I’m going to continue to defend it. And, you know, I think a lot about what was his name? The Pentagon papers, Ellsworth Ellsberg, Daniel Ellsberg. Um I think a lot about a lot about him and a lot of the journalists and members of the Fourth Estate Independent and otherwise, you know, these these uh boss and researchers, you know, some people call them internet sleuths, sedition hunters. These are open source intelligence researchers that have helped catch a lot of these insurrectionists. Those are my people, you know?

[0:34:54 Speaker 0] Absolutely. And sometimes the evidence is hiding in plain sight, isn’t it? It’s right in front of us, right? Don’t never discount the importance of the obvious Zachary as as a young person who is deeply concerned about all of the topics personal and political that Alison discussed and shared with us with such honesty and authenticity. Do you do you find this inspiring? Do you think there are lots of listeners your age and around your age who will be inspired to go out and do more of what Alison is doing?

[0:35:29 Speaker 1] I think so. I think there’s already

[0:35:31 Speaker 2] a movement among young people um to to do things like host podcasts and have discussions amongst their peers and and speak truth to power, but also have conversations with Power. And I think that that all of these new technologies pose a threat to our democratic discourse, but also make it more egalitarian and more open to young

[0:35:51 Speaker 0] people. So I’m going to close Zachary by asking you and Allison the same question. And what’s the one thing you would want concerned young listeners to start doing that, they might not be doing Zachary and then we’ll we’ll turn to Alison on that.

[0:36:05 Speaker 2] Well, I think one thing people need to do is they need to start reading a lot and not just reading books that are on topic or seem particularly relevant, but reading novels and works of philosophy and others that may seem tangential, but really have have a lot to bear on our situation and bring a lot of important perspective. I think that’s one of the most important things you can do

[0:36:29 Speaker 0] sure being well read so that you can contextual ease and make sense of the barrage of facts in our present day. Alison, maybe we can close with your suggestion if there’s one thing you could, you know, have our young listeners start doing that would help you and help the cause of democracy.

[0:36:46 Speaker 1] Um yeah, yeah. To build on on Zachary’s idea of an educated electorate. Um I had a great discussion with a young voter rights activist named Santiago Mayor. Um he’s an immigrant is 19 years old and he’s just so active in the community. And I think the most important thing, at least from what I garnered from my conversation with him and other young activists is to get involved locally in your election process. Do you know, your your boards of education, your city council, uh huh. And to register to vote and to really sort of because I think when we become active locally, that sort of trickles up to the national level. And I think that that is where we have to start because those are the policies that impact us the most directly. And I think that I think that that young people really understand that no, it it’s more tangible and concrete for them and they can really get involved at that level.

[0:37:45 Speaker 0] That’s such good advice. You know, it evokes the famous statement by tip o’neill right? All politics is local and all changes local. There’s no doubt that throughout our history, all the great movements from suffrage activities to progressivism to the new deal, they all began at the local level and they all began with young people and Allison you provide the fact basis, you provide the framework, you provide the energy, the humor. But most of all the realistic hope, that’s the phrase I think about when I think about you that you’re you’re bathing yourself in the realism of the difficulties of our time, but you find hope in working your way through that and sharing that with others. And I think that kind of hope can be expressed in all of our local communities and then, as you say, filter on up to the top. So thank you for all that you do Alison and thank you for spending a little time with us. I know you probably have like 16 other things to do right now and more people to expose more bad behavior by trump to expose that will keep you busy a while longer. But we’re just so delighted and inspired to have you on our podcast. Thank you so much.

[0:38:54 Speaker 1] Yeah, thank you. And if you’re into that hopeful message, another one of my 8000 shows is called Clean Up on aisle 45 I think that you would really enjoy it.

[0:39:04 Speaker 0] I have to listen to that myself. I am a big fan and I hope all of our listeners if they’re not already will be listening to Mueller she wrote and the daily beans. And then one more time that the one you just

[0:39:16 Speaker 1] mentioned clean up on aisle 45

[0:39:19 Speaker 0] cleanup on I’m going to check that one out as soon as we’re done today Zachary thank you for your poem is always and for your insights and most of all thank you to our loyal listeners. Thank you for joining us for this episode of this is democracy. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. This podcast is produced by the liberal Arts I. T. S. Development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Komotini. Stay tuned for a new episode. Every week you can find this is Democracy on Apple podcasts, Spotify and stitcher. See you next time