This is Democracy – Episode 143: Black Resistance to Slavery in Early America and its Legacies

[0:00:05 Speaker 2] This is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics in the world around a podcast about educating yourself on today’s important

[0:00:17 Speaker 1] issues and how to have a voice

[0:00:19 Speaker 2] in what happens next.

[0:00:20 Speaker 1] Welcome to our new episode of this is Democracy. Today we’re going to discuss the history of slave revolts and maroon societies in the United States and their legacy. They are very important but often neglected legacy for contemporary debates, challenges and opportunities in our democracy. Uh we have with us today, one of the foremost scholars of the subject, a wonderful colleague and good friend here at the University of texas. Professor Daina Berry. Good morning Dina. Good morning

[0:00:53 Speaker 0] Jimmy.

[0:00:54 Speaker 1] Dina is the Oliver Radke regions professor of history and the chair of the history department at the University of texas at Austin. She has received numerous awards, um She’s most famous for being one of the leading scholars of the enslaved, of the experience of slavery in american history and in particular the role of women uh in the history of slavery and slavery’s legacy in american history. She’s the author of numerous books and articles. Uh some of my favorites, her first book, Swing the Sickle for the Harvest Is Ripe, which is a wonderful title. Uh It’s on gender and slavery in antebellum Georgia uh and actually has renewed relevance I think, for understanding voting issues in Georgia today. She wrote another award winning book, The Price for their pound of flesh, another fantastic title, data. We need to get you to write titles for everyone’s books. Uh The value of the enslaved from wound to grave in the building of a nation to really extraordinary book that examines the economic history of slavery in many ways and the ways in which slave bodies were valued by the economic market, a real critique of capitalism in many ways, and how capitalism commodified human bodies and and paid people actually for their brutality. It’s it’s a really harrowing and eye opening book and then, most recently a book she co wrote with Kali Gross, Black Women’s History of the United States was really rethinks american history from the perspective of african american women who have often been left out in most histories and most political moments. Uh Donna. It’s really wonderful to have you on the podcast.

[0:02:28 Speaker 0] Thanks so much for inviting me. It’s a pleasure

[0:02:31 Speaker 1] before we turn to our discussion with Dina Barry. We have, of course, mr Zachary series, scene setting poem. What is the title of your poem today?

[0:02:40 Speaker 2] When you have not heard?

[0:02:42 Speaker 1] Let’s hear from one, we have not heard

[0:02:45 Speaker 2] the image of a black teenager standing on a car, maybe a patrol car surrounded by a crowd, maybe a mob screaming with despair, maybe anger remembering a police van? Maybe the prison cell. The image of a black man standing on a makeshift home, maybe fortress in a bog or a swamp forest in the center of Jamaica. Maybe south Carolina surrounded by a crowd. Maybe a society remembering a plantation, Maybe the slave ship. The image of a black crowd marching with torches maybe just where they marched with torches on ground, shrouded in the mist beneath darkness with the tools they use to till the fields, maybe to break their backs speaking a language. Maybe one that makes you squirm writing a story. Maybe one that you have never been told. The image of a black woman sitting in a rocking chair, maybe a thrown on a porch beneath a lamp, in a swamp, on an island. Maybe now a golf course speaking a language maybe one you cannot understand telling a story. Maybe one you have not heard.

[0:03:54 Speaker 1] It’s very moving exactly

[0:03:56 Speaker 0] powerful.

[0:03:58 Speaker 1] It is, it is. What is your poem about Zachary?

[0:04:02 Speaker 2] My poem is really about the ways in which maroon societies and, and black resistance to slavery have played in american history, but also the ways in which that history has been swept under the rug and not told. Uh, and and the ways in which our fear of black resistance has also shaped our institutions just as much

[0:04:23 Speaker 1] very well, said Dina. Building on on this powerful statement from Zachary. Um, how common was black resistance to slavery in early America? And how would you describe its effects on the development of american institutions and other institutions in in the atlantic world?

[0:04:40 Speaker 0] Well, first of all, I wanted to just say I had to mute my mic because I knew I was going to sound like the call and response of, of a black church. Um I was listening to him because I was grunting and moaning and making sounds while he was sharing that beautiful piece. So thank you so much for that. Um, I really appreciate it and I’m sure we’ll talk about some of the connections today, but blacks resisted at every moment of enslavement. Um and I think that’s a very simplistic statement for me to begin with. But it’s something that was very, very common from the moment that Africans were captured in their communities, to the moments that they were transferred to the coastline. Even when they were put on ships, they resisted. Then they resisted during the force travel to New World plantation communities. And they resisted even when they got off those ships and were put on auction blocks to be sold. So I think the first thing is just to think about the resistance was always here. It was here from the moment of capture and how did that shape the ways in which early America was formed? One way to understand that is to look at the legislation and to look at some of the codes that governed enslavement in the United States. But also these codes were most often they came from examples from the caribbean Um examples from Barbados when they established the slave code in the 1660s. Um and these codes were called titled like an act for the better ordaining and governing of quote unquote negroes. And in this case, you know, in slavers had the right to do in the authority to do what they wanted to enslave people, They could punish them for minor offenses. Um they were chastised, whipped branded, they were cut, um they could legally cripple them, sometimes they were set on fire and they could murder they’re enslaved people without much consequence. You know, I would say that this happened because enslaved people were resisting and there’s a there’s a struggle between enslave ear’s and the enslaved and the enslaved, pushing for freedom for liberty for the right to be treated as a human being. And one of the ways as I mentioned, you can find this is through legislation.

[0:06:52 Speaker 2] So what is a maroon society? That’s that’s one of the topics we wanted to touch on in this podcast. It’s it’s something that we don’t really talk about in the context of american history very much, but it seems to have played an important role, at least in in developing the institutions that shaped american society for a long time.

[0:07:11 Speaker 0] Oh yeah, maroon societies were essentially independent communities where what I would call self liberated enslaved people developed in order to live in isolation and freedom. Um They were often secluded places like mountainous regions, rainforests in the caribbean, uh in the United States, woods, caves. The Dismal swamp was one of the major places where we know often south Carolina and Georgia, coastal regions where the sea islands were. They would live in places where they could live in isolation. Sometimes these places were close enough to plantations where they could raid them for food and also probably to get more individuals to come and live with them in these isolated communities. The origin of this, this term maroon comes from a french word that was derived from the spanish word semoran and it has um Ameri indian roots. And we know that there were these types of communities in places like brazil called Colombo’s and they lived in what many scholars refer to as quote unquote inaccessible areas. But when you look at the experience from the enslaved, they talk about how they felt more comfortable in the swamps. They felt more comfortable living amongst snakes and alligators than they did their own slavers.

[0:08:28 Speaker 1] So Donna, how do you think about the development of american democracy in this early period with such a presence of brutality and inhumanity? How do we think about a figure like thomas jefferson who is endlessly fascinating because of his, his writings about the importance of democracy and what we would today call human rights. But at the same time his participation, his encouragement in some ways of the very system that you’re describing.

[0:08:55 Speaker 0] Well, that’s a great question. You know, one of the things we see is that if you look at this history and for connecting the history of maroons and maroon societies too early american democracy, the example most enslave ear’s in south Carolina and Georgia, particular in the colonial regions, had plantations in the caribbean. They were referred to as absentee owners and they had to negotiate treaties with like in Jamaica nanny, the maroon we may have heard of her. She is today a national hero in Jamaica, but they negotiated treaties with the british government to maintain control of a particular space and place in the mountains. Um they established maps and boundary lines and negotiated this after years of guerilla warfare to establish a space of freedom and independence. And I think that if you think about the development of maroon communities and you think about the negotiations that took place between, you know, the british government and run away and slave people or self liberated and slave people. That sets a tone for understanding negotiations about what is democracy here in this nation and how enslaved people, despite being placed on the outside of that space, outside of democracy, tried to find ways to push for their humanity to be recognized.

[0:10:15 Speaker 1] Were they successful? I mean, obviously it it took far too long for us to begin to grapple with slavery and we still grapple with slavery as a society. But do you see evidence that in a sense, the powerless slaves and and maroon societies were able to actually exert significant influence on the development of american democracy?

[0:10:35 Speaker 0] Yes and no. I mean one, I think I would say yes, because they force people, they forced those at the time to recognize them for those places where there were treaties, they were forced to be recognized. Um but on the other hand, it also questioned the notion of black humanity And the fact that we have constantly changing slave codes in the United States 1793 again in 1850. Um, you can look at any law and legislation for a particular community to see how black people were governed and that tells you a lot about how blacks were resisting and and pushing for the right to be treated as human beings,

[0:11:17 Speaker 1] the development of abolitionism and efforts by some non black communities to try to speak on behalf and argue for the interests of slaves and maroon societies. Where do you see that coming from?

[0:11:34 Speaker 0] I think abolitionism as the movement, there’s there’s a couple ways. I mean, I think about it broadly. One for me, I think about the desire for civil rights as starting, You know, as early as the moment that black people arrived here, I don’t think I don’t look at for me because I’m a scholar of the enslaved in, a scholar of slavery. You know, I go all the way back to evidence of people fighting for their rights. And so I think about it much more broadly than the modern civil rights movement that we talk about. When we look at the 1940s, 50s and 60s. But when you think about abolitionism, there’s an organized movement that really takes off, you know, it begins around the American revolutionary generation, but it really takes off in the 1830s 1840s, in terms of the organized movement of abolitionism. But as you know, many scholars argue, there’s there’s an there are efforts of abolitionism that come before the organized movement and I would argue that some of those efforts involved rebellions, uprisings, like the Gabriel Prosser Rebellion, the german coast uprising in 18 11, Denmark Bc net Turner, all of those to me, are evidence of black rebellion that is pushing for the abolition and end of slavery

[0:12:44 Speaker 1] and I think that really brilliantly takes us into some of the contemporary issues. The the one other question I wanted to ask before we get to the contemporary connections is the reaction to african american uh revolts, the reaction to assertions of independence and freedom with the rise of groups like the ku Klux Klan. Do you see that also as as part and parcel of this long history or how do you understand these, shall we say white militia groups that seem to be pervasive through american society in response to slavery?

[0:13:19 Speaker 0] Well, I think that’s a great question. We find that that these resistance groups are here because they’re not necessarily understanding that blacks, they don’t understand, don’t they’re not thinking about it from the perspective of African americans that are fighting for their individual rights And part of that is because they didn’t look at African americans as being part of the democracy, right to be, to have a place and a right to vote, to treat them as citizens. So when you think about black freedom during slavery, often, what people talked about was they couldn’t imagine life with black people being free. So there was a push for colonization right, sending them to parts of Liberia in West Africa, there was a push to send them when when a person was freed, they had to leave the state within or the colony within six months. And so there’s this notion of how do we deal with the free black problem and how do we deal with African americans as citizens of the same rights? And I think that’s one of the challenges when we, when we try to make these connections to today is to understand that there’s always been a notion of, of black people being a different class and the notion of how black people arrived in this country.

[0:14:36 Speaker 2] So we often talk about abolitionists and uh, and and and sometimes black resistance to slavery in the 19th century as precursors to the civil rights movement and black activism today. Where does, where does early black resistance in the form of, of slave revolts, rebellions, and maroon societies fit into this story?

[0:14:57 Speaker 0] I actually think we should look at it as a continuum and I’ve said this before, I think we should see this as activism in every period of us history and we can learn from understanding some of the claims for, for the rights that we saw during slavery often unfortunately, are similar claims that you see today, although they were they were during slavery. African americans were trying to be treated as not only equal citizens, but just being able to live in freedom. You see some of the challenges today where the lessons for today as if there’s just a long history of fighting to be treated as citizens to have the rights protected and respected. We we see African americans in every moment trying to prove their citizenship and prove that they consider themselves as just as american as anybody else and wanting to participate in our democracy.

[0:15:47 Speaker 1] And Dina, do you see a similar continuum among those who oppose uh many civil rights advances and those who question the rights of African americans to vote and those who often defend violence toward the african american bodies and groups in our societies. Uh do you see that as a continuum with the past as well? I

[0:16:11 Speaker 0] do, I do. And I think that that is probably the most sad reality of what we’re witnessing and facing today, is that some of the same language is being used, that we saw during the civil rights movement. That same language that we see now is was used during slavery. I mean, I’m not trying to jump from 100 years to, you know, to another 100 years, but oftentimes what you see as african americans wanting to Be free and to have a fair trial, you’ll hear this, you know, the jury of their peers oftentimes that that wasn’t the case historically, even even in the early uh, Caribbean period of slave revolts where they’d say, well, if they took an enslaved person to trial, they would have a jury of 12 men of their peers. They were never their peers. They didn’t have other enslaved people couldn’t testify. So now we find blacks fighting for justice, right? I mean they’re looking for, they’re going to continue to protest until justice is done until justice is served, until people are treated equally until our rights aren’t being compromised and taken away and legislation is not being changed to disenfranchise people of color.

[0:17:19 Speaker 1] So why do you think it is done? I know this is a hard and difficult question, but you’re the best person probably in the world to answer it. Why do you think it is that? Um, this shall we say resistance to full african american participation, even to somewhat equal participation? Why, why has it been so hard? Why why is there such a strong continuity of resistance? Is it is it just racism towards black men and black women or is there something deeper?

[0:17:53 Speaker 0] You know, that’s a good question. I think if you were to ask people that were against, you know, people that were trying to curtail voting rights, they would never admit that. That’s what the base of some of this is discrimination. Um I think some of it is is a disrespect and a lack of respect for for marginalized communities. Um I mean, even even you look at folks that have that are incarcerated, that get out right, that are released, their voting rights are marginalized, right? People that commit felonies are having a difficult time, many places are not able to vote, right? So there are disenfranchised. Um so there’s like a public stain, that’s a permanent stain. And there’s there’s laws and legislation now and there’s some some places are trying to to lift those kinds of restrictions. But I think part of it does come from going all the way back to not seeing certain groups of people as equal and having the right to the same level of citizenship and activism and participation in society.

[0:18:55 Speaker 1] Mm Yeah, I I think that’s right. I I watching, you know, this horrible examples almost day after day of the mistreatment of black americans and other marginal communities most recently, of course the terrible shooting of this 20 year old boy in Minneapolis, just out to 10 miles from where George Floyd. Uh the person who killed George Floyd is being tried. Um one has to wonder, Dina, is is there a fear of black bodies that that seems to be built into the historical experience of the United States? That it’s it’s not just a belief that a certain group has fewer rights or should have less access to our democracy, but something even maybe deeper, there’s sort of fear of, of african american men and and various other parts of the ways in which groups try to participate in our society and are seen as threatening to those who are uncomfortable with their participation.

[0:19:52 Speaker 0] I think absolutely. I mean, there’s been a continuous fear of, of african americans, men and women. I may think the response that we’ve seen too black life has been from my perspective has been difficult to watch actually haven’t been able to watch the news much this week. I feel like we’ve been here so many times and we see the the response we talk about law enforcement is supposed to be de escalation, right? But often when I look at tapes, if I can tolerate them, I’m seeing a complete escalation where they’re yelling. They’re they’re they’re they come to some of these stops, these pullovers, whatever. You know, these encounters already charged up the language that you see people using when they see a black person in a car or vehicle or walking or running or jogging. All these different, I mean there’s all these different lives that have been taken. Um, and justly unjustly, I think there’s something about a threat, you know, and I mean as a mother, as I’ve talked about this before, but as a mother of a young black teenager, you know that the older, the older he gets, the more I worry, you know, you know when he starts driving, you know what’s gonna happen when he’s pulled over. You know, I’ve seen, we’ve seen even videos this week where you know, black military officer is in his vehicle and hands are up and out of the car and out of the vehicle and because he doesn’t open the door, get out, you know, he’s pepper sprayed, you know, I just feel like those kinds of responses to african american men and women is very frightening and I don’t know when this is going to end and it feels very familiar. It’s just more modern as a scholar of slavery. This is very familiar. It’s just a modern form of the types of abuses that I witnessed and that I write about that. I read about that. I study for the institution of slavery. Why have

[0:21:56 Speaker 2] we forgotten those parallels? It seems almost as if we’ve deliberately forgotten the history of, of black resistance and maroon societies in the United States.

[0:22:06 Speaker 0] You know, it’s interesting. I don’t know that we’ve forgotten. I just don’t think people know about it. I don’t think it’s so much about forgotten. I think that that people don’t know your average american has probably never heard of a maroon society. And if they have, they probably assumed that there were none in the United States but Sylvia and die off talks about this about maroon societies in the United States. I think there were a number of them in texas because of the forest part areas that we have here. And we also have um lots of caves that we know enslaved people lived in and went to an escape to. I think it’s more of a lack of knowledge and somebody forgetting this. You don’t, it’s not like it’s something that’s often taught even in our K through 12 textbooks. It’s not something that most students don’t learn about black resistance to slavery and um even the presence of maroon communities until college, although there are a number of teachers nationwide that I’ve had the pleasure to interact with, that are really doing some dynamic things in the classroom, but it’s just not common knowledge.

[0:23:10 Speaker 1] And I’m always struck dina that there are forces particularly in in the state of texas, but many other states as well that actually are are opposed to the teaching of this material. And and do you see that as as actually trying to create or encourage an ignorance of these issues which of course therefore has a political connection to some of what we’re seeing today, that if we don’t know this history were less likely to recognize the horrors around us. Is that part of what’s going on you think or is that is that is that too over the top?

[0:23:45 Speaker 0] No, that’s part of it. But the other part of it is that the people that are often preventing and that are on the Board of Education and in different states, they weren’t taught this history. So they’ll say that they don’t think it’s it’s real. They don’t think it’s true because they didn’t learn it this way. And so we have to get in at some point to educate in despite the fact that this is not the history I learned or this is not how I learned it. And I always, I’m always talking, I don’t know, you know, this jeremy that history is so much we learned so much more when new records come available when other papers are donated to archives or a special way of understanding or or, or a modern technology is applied to a resource from the past that we couldn’t get access to gain access to and the facts of history are often the same. But it’s just that we have more detailed understanding of that history now. And I think to tell those folks that are saying I didn’t learn it this way or this wasn’t part of the story. It’s like, yes, it was. And this is what we know now. And let’s look at the primary records, the documents that we have to tell this history and revised the history to include the most up to date current understandings from trained scholars who are in the archives. So I think that’s part of it. And the other part is just to maintain an ignorance, to not empower people to know the past. And and I mean, for instance, a number of african american history books, including my books are not allowed in many in many prisons. They’re banned from prisons. And some of these books are books about african american history. There’s there’s something about not wanting people to learn the history because they’re worried about, I think contemporary rebellion.

[0:25:30 Speaker 1] Right, Right. That’s astonishing. I didn’t know that Dina I having read at least the three books of yours that I mentioned, I I would actually think prisoners should read them. They would better understand their own history and and and and the world they’ve they’ve been stuck in anyways. Uh maybe that’s why people don’t want them to to read those books. You know, it seems to me and your work shows this so well that if we do understand this history, we recognize that many of the behaviors that we see, the atrocities that are committed within our own society, the deviations from the democracy we want to have. They’re not just a few bad apples that it’s a systemic problem. Um, how do you think about how do you talk about those issues?

[0:26:15 Speaker 0] Oh, well it is a systemic problem. And I think one way, right, how I teach it is to sort of move through history. And I that’s why I talk to start off today talking about legislation. Because I think you can understand so much about a society. When you look at the laws that were put in place to govern that society, and when I, when I read some of like the 17 oh five Virginia slave code, you know, students are astonished, um, by the restrictions placed upon the distinctions between indentured servants and enslaved people. When we look at even different counties or communities like Savannah, we look at some of the slave codes and the laws in savannah and we looked not only just how enslaved people were restricted from going anywhere without a pass. Even free blacks had to wear had to have a guardian. They had to have, uh, they had to pay a fine for quote, unquote good behavior. What what is that like? How do you decide that they had to wear a badge to go work in the city? They had to wear that on their clothing? They had to get permits for certain things. They could not stand in public for very long. So when you look at the laws governing both enslaved and free black people, you can understand and see really clearly, um, the restrictions that were placed upon people because of their status, class race and they were trying to marginalize them from society.

[0:27:43 Speaker 1] So don I think that’s a perfect place to turn to our our concluding question here. And we always like to conclude, as I think, you know, on an optimistic note, because I think you and I and Zachary and so many of us share a belief maybe it’s a faith that historical knowledge can allow us to improve that, that the brilliant and and many decades long research, you’ve summarized so beautifully for us here that it not only makes us smarter, but it allows us to improve our society. And do you believe, and do you see evidence that as especially a younger generation that’s fortunate enough to be in the classroom with you and many teachers and other scholars who you’ve worked with, does knowledge of this important and often forgotten history? Do you think it improves their understanding of democracy and and helps to improve our society as a whole?

[0:28:36 Speaker 0] Oh, absolutely. I think it’s absolutely liberating. And what I mean by that is that once students and even k through 12 education, because I do a lot of online teaching through, um, you know, the Gilder Lehrman Institute and I just finished a class on the lives of the enslaved To over 100 teachers nationwide. And yeah, we spent the last 10 weeks learning about slave rebellions, enslaved communities, culture, all kinds of things. And all of them have said it’s enriched their classrooms, it’s allowed them to understand american history better. It’s taught the students in their class to see and make connections to what’s happening literally today, the protests that is going on today. So they understand the root of it. So, um, I found that teaching this history and the work that you do and the work that all of us in our department do is very helpful and it’s, it’s, it can only enhance our education. It doesn’t necessarily create a bunch of rebels. I think there’s a fear of that. But no, it creates a community of knowledge seeking individuals who want to understand the realities of our past that can help them make sense of where we are today. And I think this is what we need to do. And this is why I love teaching

[0:29:52 Speaker 1] Zachary as, as, as someone who’s been exposed to some of this through some excellent teachers you’ve had and of course through knowing Dina and being around a lot of historians, do you And do you find that among other people of your generation, other kids of your generation, is it liberating? Is it empowering?

[0:30:10 Speaker 0] I definitely think that that that

[0:30:12 Speaker 2] the ways in which that history is being taught that the fact that that’s changing so much right now is very, is very liberating in the sense that that young people really have a chance not just to absorb the facts that we’re told from history textbooks, but to really think And think critically about the way history is being taught to us. I first learned about women societies in 10th grade world history, which to me was absolutely shocking that I had never encountered that history before. And I think that’s why this history teaching is so important is because young people like myself, we we don’t actually get this history from a young age. I think it’s not just powerful in the sense that we’re learning this for the first time, but also in the sense that we actually get to think about why we haven’t learned this before, Why we haven’t been told this story in past history classes

[0:31:05 Speaker 1] and Zachary. Do you find as as Dina said so well that it actually gives you a greater appreciation for democracy.

[0:31:13 Speaker 2] I think it definitely does. I think it also shows the ways in which african american resistance to oppression has shaped our democracy and the ways in which our democracy isn’t simply shaped by a bunch of white men in a room signing a paper, but actually the forces of ordinary people and and often the people at the very bottom of society

[0:31:36 Speaker 1] Dina to to close out this discussion. Uh, what makes you most hopeful? I mean, you have spent so much of your life studying some of the worst horrors in our history or is that that many people are embarrassed to even talk about? And then of course, you recognize better than anyone as you’ve described so well, the continuity is to the present. So what do you find most hopeful in this?

[0:32:00 Speaker 0] Well, I’m hopeful just hearing that Zachary learned about maroon communities in 10th grade as opposed to in my college classroom when I when I talk about that. So I’m hopeful about the future. I’m hopeful about the younger generation. I remember a few years ago when they were school shootings and there were kids that were young adults that were not a voting age were protesting and fighting against gun legislation. And I just remember thinking I felt hopeful in the making statements about the future for them. You know them talking about this is what I want my future to look like. So for me, I’m hopeful for younger generation, a generation that’s hungry to learn. A generation that’s not afraid of difference, a generation that does not pass necessarily pass judgment on resistance but also understanding it and coming to into their own thinking about what the democracy will look like for them.

[0:32:53 Speaker 1] I can’t think of better words than those Dina, thank you so much. I I think what you’ve brought out for us so clearly and so eloquently are the ways in which a deeper understanding of the the nightmares from our past and the horrors of our past can help us to better understand our present, but also to to see ways forward to learn and improve and and how ignorance often basically reinforces some of the continued bad behavior that needs to change that. Democracy is a continual learning process and you bring such scholarly rigor but also um just such a hopeful attitude to this difficult topic. I really appreciate it. Thank you for joining us today. Thank

[0:33:35 Speaker 0] you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure

[0:33:37 Speaker 1] and Zachary. Thank you of course for your scene setting poem and your thoughtful reflections and most of all thank you to our audience for joining this week of this is Democracy Yeah

[0:33:55 Speaker 0] this podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts I. T. S.

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[0:33:59 Speaker 0] and the College of Liberal

[0:34:00 Speaker 2] Arts at the University of texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Komotini. Stay tuned for a new episode. Every week you can find this

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