This is Democracy – Episode 141: “The Eyes of Texas”

[0:00:05 Speaker 0] Yeah, this is Democracy, a podcast about the people of the United States, a podcast about citizenship, about engaging with politics and the world around you. A podcast about educating yourself on today’s important issues and how to have a voice in what happens next. Welcome to our new episode of This Is Democracy. This week we’re going to discuss the eyes of Texas, uh, the song used by the University of Texas at major events since 19 oh three and a song that’s come under a lot of controversy recently. We are joined by a good friend and frequent guests. Professor Richard Reddick, who led a University wide committee that examined the history of this song and the committee’s report that we’ll talk to Rich about not only commented on the song, but I think had a lot to say about the ways we think about rituals, the ways we think about inherited traditions and how we understand their uses. Uh, in our society today a society that we hope is more conscious of diversity and different perspectives. Uh, rich. Thanks for joining us once again. Jeremy. Good to be here. Zachary. Good to be here with you as well, and it does feel like a sort of coming to the, uh, familiar place in front of the fire with the slippers. There we go. Uh, and, of course, with the important beverage as well, right? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, It’s hot chocolate Rich Reddick. For those of you who don’t know, you should know him. He’s the inaugural associate dean for equity community engagement and outreach at the College of Education here at the University of Texas at Austin. He’s also a distinguished professor in the program in higher education leadership, which is such an appropriate background for him to have when addressing these issues. Uh, he’s been on the faculty here since 2000 and seven, and in addition to that, many of you have encountered Rich Reddick. I’m sure because he’s involved in every organization in every part of this country. This that doesn’t seem as if there’s anything Rich is not involved in. He’s the assistant director for the Plan two honors program. He’s associated with virtually every center on campus here, Uh, but most significantly, what I want to say about Rich is he’s a public intellectual who brings serious research and thinking about race and education to our public discussion in a way that almost no one else does. And that’s I think, why he was the perfect person to share this deep analysis of the eyes of Texas, uh, and its role at the university and why he’s such a good person to talk about these these issues. Before we turn to our discussion with Rich, we have, of course, Zachary’s scene setting poem What’s the title of your poem today? Zachary, The Spirit lives. Let’s hear it as if we are angels. We stand upon a dock and sing like the pictures in a textbook. We stand together in a ring and call forth from their cliffside layers are demons and our nightmares as prayers as if we were angels. We dare to look around and pierced the clouds with memories we know have run aground. It is not the time for cracking, says the old man to the bard. It is not the time for loving, but we do it just the same, said the bar, back to the man, sitting in a corner, lame as if we all were angels. We sat upon a dock and with our voices, began to mock the shriveled history of the decades past that we had conquered neat and fast. But the very words that indeed we sung crawled out and swallowed all our little tongues. Right then they had remembered their true meanings and broken up our gaily spoken stream ing’s the spirit lives. The old man cried, the spirit lives, and then he died. You know, Zach, where you have to have those written down so I can sort of scan and do the tent the scan shin and and analyze it because that’s good stuff, man. Thank you. I I love the sarcasm in that also, Zachary, I mean, there’s there’s a little bit of appointed wit. What is your poem about? My poem is really about the ways in which we think we can interact with these artifacts of our history on on a daily basis, without acknowledging that history without interacting with that history at all, as if we can sort of deal with these remnants of our past and treat them as if they’re completely modern and only have the meanings that we feel them to have today, right? But the meanings change over time. Exactly right. Rich that. That seems to me to be one of the central insights of this really elaborate and well researched report that you share the writing of what are the most important facts? The historical foundation for understanding the eyes of Texas as it exists today. Well, you know, Jeremy, I’ll start playing like a history scholar, And I have to actually, you know, shout out my history professor in graduate school, Julie Rubin, who trained me in historical methods. And so I think I learned a few things from from Dr Rubin and, you know, working alongside, uh, historians of our committee, both professional and, uh, the folks who work outside the academy. Um, you know, the first thing is, like present is, um, right sort of using a lens or perspective that is cognizant of the values and the sort of experiences of the current time and analyzing things in the past with those kinds of conceptions, and that’s usually gonna believe you to some problems, right? Because the world was different, and that’s something that is sometimes difficult to grapple with. The other thing I think it is really important is the fact that, um and then Bill brand said this. Really? Well, uh, that’s what Bill does. He kind of pops in and just drops in these, like Monmouth’s. He just like these two or three sentences. Things you’re like, Wow, he said. You know, statues and buildings are static. When they’re erected, they look the same. They may get a patina on them. They might age a little bit, but they’re the same. A song, a painting Every time that’s viewed or sung or interpreted, it’s slightly different, and a lot of times the interpretations and the singing are the same as the one before. But every so often there’s a use of it that’s different. Um, and to me, the dynamism of this particular piece of ephemera right is really important, because if this was a building that kind of resided there and had this sort of origin press inescapable, I would posit that a song because of its utility, not just in the, you know, in one context, but in multiple context. Sorts of sort of makes me think that there’s something else going on and something interesting to sit with, and some of those things are incredibly problematic and upsetting, and some of those things are really enlightening. And, you know, I think you can say the history of this university can be told through the history of the song in a lot of ways, and and just to put it out there, Rich, you’re one of many scholars who has gone on record. And I think you said this in an earlier podcast of ours who supports removing certain statues and even changing certain names. And so right, So So maybe just to build on what you said, why is a song different? Because that that might surprise people. Yeah, I think it has to do with this idea of a dynamism. And so one thing that was really kind of great about our committee and I was talking to our good for victor signs and Victor’s on the committee, and, uh, we were talking. He was like, You know, Rich, I really wish that people got to sit with us in our deliberations and hear from Michael Ray Charles or Charles Carson who are experts, you know, in ethnomusicology and an art interpretation. Um, and hear them talk because I think many of us came in with sort of mindsets that were fairly fixed. You know, this is what I understand. This is what I do. This is what I’ve seen. I feel a certain way, and what these experts were able to do is to sort of challenge those ways of thinking. Um and in particular, I think when these other artifacts are sort of presented, what you end up with is sort of something that is mired in its in its context, right? It can’t overcome that, right? The person who built this, the person who operated in the space, um, seems to be fairly permanent. Songs are quite different because the meaning of a song and the way the songs interpreted. And I’m reminded of a great quote. I don’t remember who said this to me, but I think it’s Matthew McConaughey, actually, so you know, he made the point of That’s a nice name. Drop their ritual. It is. You know it’s gonna get better because, uh, those of us of a certain vintage of U two fans and U two’s album rattle and hum 87 comes out and it starts off with the song Helter Skelter. And Bono says this is a song that Charles Manson stole for the Beatles were still get back. Um, the ownership, the definition, the contours of a song, um, are often reinterpreted and recast, Um, and so I think that’s the thing that makes it different. And there are utterances, such as hearing the song sung by Barbara Smith Conrad, who was a precursor one of the first African Americans, uh, to attend U T and her. Her story is quite a story, and I encourage people to either read about her or check down the documentary when I Rise, which came out in 2010. And this is a woman who came to U T. In the first class of freshmen who are African American, who were allowed to come in 1956 and was selected to be part of the, uh, school opera cast opposite of white male student. Her state representative found out about this and said, If this happens, the university is not going to have a good budget this year. And so she was then removed, and from that removal that was delivered to her by the dean and then by the president and Harry Belafonte and Zachary, I know you don’t know who he is. But Harry Belafonte was okay. Good, good, good. Okay, You give me hope because so many of your generation are like, Who is that? Harry Belafonte says to her, calls her up and says to her, I will pay for you to go to school anywhere in the world. Um, if this is not the place for you And Barbara goes home to her dad and talks to him and he says, You know, it’s your choice And she says, You know, this is my home state. I’m not going to leave And she finishes her degree here and has an amazing career. Literally as a diva, uh, plays Marian Anderson in the TV movie about Roosevelt. And, of course, Marian Anderson was not able to sing in the American Revolution Hall and ended up singing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Very impactful moment in our history. Um, Barbara comes back, distinguished alumna and, you know, starts contributing and doing all these wonderful things to to build a legacy of helping singers and other musicians. And in 2000, she is at commencement and she sings the eyes of Texas. And if you say to me the eyes of Texas, you know, 19 Oh three. Minstrel Show Origins is the same song that Barbara Smith Conrad sing in 2000. I don’t I don’t agree with you. I I think that’s an incredible sort of shifting of what that song meant. Who sang the song? Who Who was some, too, and what it meant. So to me, that’s that’s kind of the story that’s illustrative of many interpretations we saw. There’s a lot of different variants of the eyes of Texas, from Tejano version to, uh, you know, to a you know, mariachi version. Gucci Mane, you know, famously on the, uh, Jimmy Fallon show, performs a track version of it. So the fact that this song has been reinterpreted and sampled and remixed, I think is significant and it doesn’t It doesn’t the gate, the origin or the exclusion of African Americans up until 1956 1950 1956. But I think it’s important part of the conversation as well. The eyes of Texas are upon you all the live long day. The eyes of Texas are upon you. You cannot get away, Dude, I think you can escape them at night or early in the morning The eyes of Texas are upon you. Tail Gabriel closes Tha eyes of Texas are upon you all The live long day The eyes of Texas are upon you. You cannot get away. Think you can’t escape there at night Early in the morning the eyes of Texas are upon you Gave your closes Mhm. The eyes of Texas are upon you all of the long way The eyes of Texas are upon you. You cannot get away. Do not think you can escape there at night, early in the morning the eyes of Texas are upon You still gave the bows his home rich. You’ve given us a really compelling example of how the song is made and remade by different singers in different contexts. Why do we keep returning to the song? Why is it so important to keep the song? Well, you know, I mean, I wrote a letter in the sort of preamble of the report and I said something along the lines that, you know, traditions can’t be mandated. Of course, right. Tuition traditions endure because they go viral, right? There’s something about the moment of the tune or the song or the lyrics or whatever that just catch people’s imagination and people can map other things onto it. Right? So, um, my thought is that, um, it’s spoken to people in different ways in different context over time, right? Um, and what that means is that every time that song is sung or looked at or analyzed, there’s a new chapter to be written. There’s a new person singing the song, and I tell the story, and folks often don’t often know the story about me. But I I didn’t grow up in Texas. My dad was in the military 26 years. I moved to Austin from Upper Hayford, England, in 1986 and that was the year that later Longhorns were on a 34. Oh, um, tear. They went undefeated. And so, unlike a lot of Longhorn fans, my first immersion the Texas culture was not through. Football is through women’s basketball and shout out to our lady longhorns, who just had a great, uh, tournament. That’s that’s really awesome to think about. And I told us to coach Conrad. I had a chance to talk to her about this and said, you know, at the end of the game, I remember watching a game. And remember, at the end of the game, people put the devil horns up and started singing the railroad song. And I’m like, What am I witnessing here? This is the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen. Like, I couldn’t even make sense of it. But then four years later, I’m a freshman on the campus and I’m learning the song. I’m an orientation advisor and I’m like, Oh, you know, and I’m talking to people who are telling me all these things that University of Texas means to them. And so I think a lot of people had that experience where they are, like, this is a weird thing. I don’t quite get it. And then at some point, it becomes part of the experience you have, right? Um And then, of course, um, you start learning that there’s a longer and more robust history to it, and the history has some troubling parts to it. And what I’ve told people, Jeremy, is like, you have to map onto this just sort of how we sort of exist as a as a cultural context. United States of America. How so many of our, you know, tradition songs, uh, images, you know, have passed that we grapple with. And we are very difficult to understand, especially in the 20th 21st century. Um, but there are also anchoring there also in some ways unifying, right? Uh, and so I think it’s a combination of all those things. And what that means is that there is no easy answer. I think each person is going to have a different interpretation, a different feeling about it, and that might change over time. Um, one of the things about our committee work that was interesting is that many of our committee, uh, talk about this. You know, at a certain point in my experience, I felt the song had this meeting to me and I embraced it, or I rejected it. And then I feel differently. Another point in time, um, much to do what’s happening in the world. So I think the fact that we’re talking about this in 2021 or as I’ve said many times, the 15th month of 2020 you know, we’re in a time of an incredible reckoning in this country about justice and racial justice? Um, exclusion, inclusion. All those things are up for discussion. And there’s some real questioning about, you know, does America, you know, do I, too sing America is the question that many errors are asking, right? Um and so I think for this moment, um, it’s incredibly trying time for for for many of us, I would say all of us. Um and I think that’s why I admit it very clear to people. My intention and my goal and I think the committee would agree with me is not to make people feel one way or the other about this song. That’s a very personal journey, but it’s to sort of lay out some information that we do know and also talk about how this the history of the song parallels the history of the state and this university and this community, Quite frankly, Yeah, but, uh, as you said, write these songs, the people who have been singing them, their meaning to huge swaths of the population has changed. But at the same time, what would you say to someone who says, uh, looking at the very problematic messages that were leaked to the press from donors about the song and and and other shit other issues and say, But have those same the same people who were singing this song in a problematic way in the past? Are they still singing it today? And then how can we grapple with it being used both in a welcoming way and in an exclusionary way? You know, Zachary, I think that’s a good question, because I I don’t think there’s any way of inoculating any ephemera from people who we might, uh, side with or agree with and think or, you know, sort of vocalizing our perspectives and people who are not. Right. Um, one of the things I learned as a U. T. Student is that I ended up making friends with people who have very different perspectives than I had and let me get very clear. I have no tolerance. Uh, and no, I give no quarter to racist, sexist, homophobic transphobic, uh, people who, uh, believe that their position al itty allows them to tell somebody that they don’t belong or they’re not part of this community. I have no space for that. Um, and of course, you know, the ugliest in the most obnoxious sort of perspectives are the ones that are the ones that probably get the most attention. And I’ll tell you, I got a lot of emails forwarded to me by the president’s office and also directly to me, people saying I hate the song, Get rid of it, You know what’s wrong with you? And I had people saying, I love the song, Keep it, you know And of course, that wasn’t our charge, But I got to see the variance of perspectives and, you know, the majority of people who wrote said things like, I feel very strongly about this. This is why I support it. I hope it stays or I feel very strongly about this. This is why I don’t think it should stay and they kept it civil. And you know, the fact that some people believe that because they hold a certain societal position that they can tell people go somewhere else. I mean, that’s right out of 19 fifties. That’s the same thing in the one I Rise documentary. There’s a moment where Barbara Smith Conrad is sitting in the Briscoe Center. Archives, reading letters and some letters say University of Texas is making a huge mistake. How can you not let this this young woman sing this song? And some people are like, right on, you know, keep Texas White, you know, So it brings us back to that space. But it brings us to a larger question. Zachary, which is like, we are still grappling with the same issues that were prominent 70 years ago. Right? And we’ve made some progress. Of course, it’s it’s products that we didn’t make progress. But it’s also something we need to consider that you know, the dialogue and the understanding of our humanity as people. Not everybody understands at this point in time, what do we do? You know, um, we can be incensed about it or we can try to say, Well, could we use this moment and this song and this particular history as a learning tool to enlighten people that you know, some of the things you here today were uttered 70 years ago? Um, and some of the things you here today people took these as forms of protest forms of amplifying their voice, forms of feeling, a sense of belonging. That’s all part of the story. The story isn’t linear that’s the thing. I think it’s most important. Um, even people who said, You know, I love the ice of Texas The report is great. I’m like, Did you read the report? Because there’s a lot in the report that’s not laudatory about the University of Texas. Um, and I think a fair reading would have you sort of negotiate the things that are challenging and problematic and frustrating and upsetting with the things that are positive. It’s It is the most American sort of narrative I can think of, right. And in some ways we have the privilege of having these people still around. I mean, this isn’t This is pretty recent history, right? And we have. We have the ability to actually go back and ask people what this song meant to them, and we shouldn’t ignore that. We should take that into account, you know, having the opportunity to work in a multi generational committee with people who were on campus in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, the current day, um, was amazing, because you often think that you understand or you have a perspective and there’s a lot of reframing that takes place. Well, what if you went to school at this time? Then how do you feel? What? He went to school at this time. And then you watch university developed over the last 10, 15, 20 years. Then how do you feel? Um, that was a huge part of the realization, I think moving out of our sort of generational cohorts and talking to people in different spaces and saying, Well, what’s your story? And of course, the people who had, you know, longevity. I think we’re the ones we often were like, Wow, that’s a cool story. What was it like to be on campus when these things were happening? And that, to me, was the most amazing thing? And I would say What I would encourage people to do is to talk across generations about this, but just get a sense of what people were experiencing. Um, and that’s the song. But just what was happening on campus, where were the priorities? Who was included, who was excluded so, so rich? One of the really impressive parts of the report, and I hope all of our listeners will will read it not just for the history of the eyes of Texas, but for another point. The ways in which these rituals these ephemera get so deeply embedded, um, in in our society and our traditions and get used in so many different ways. Your report captures this and is filled with descriptions and photos. Um, it enlightened me on all the different different ways in which this song is embedded in our society, and I was thinking about the American flag as well and the way in which American flag is embedded in our society. It’s a piece of historical ephemera to and how it’s been used in civil rights marches but also been used in lynchings. How it’s appeared in wars against fascism but also in appeared in places where military force was perhaps misused. Uh, the ways it was part of Obama rallies and trump rallies, right? And and so what? Your report really prompted me to think about Rich and and I think this might be sort of the most important question taking this history forward. How do we encourage the positive uses? How do we take these rituals that matter so much to us as you’ve described so brilliantly and in helping give us giving us a sense of community and connection. How do we take these problematic rituals and make them more positive as we go forward? What a great question. And what a great analog to think about. The flag is one of those things, right? And I’m I’m from military families. So this is interesting, right? Because, uh, I was the guy in rtc who did the flag, you know, drill and folded the flag and, you know, revelry at five o’clock. Anybody’s military kid knows this at five o’clock on a military installation, you stop and face the flag and salute. Right? Um and you’re exactly right. Um, the flag has been used as an accountability like, this is also my flag, and it stands for something, and we have not lived up to what the flag stands for. And in some places, it’s This flag is not representative of my experiences. Um, I think it starts with an honest appraisal of the information. And I’ve written about this before, and it’s funny how people will sort of describe prospective See, But you can look at my research record, right? You look at what I’ve written in public scholarship and I’ve written about you know the danger of propagandizing history, right when the United Daughters of the Confederacy sort of set in motion this concept of lost cause and so many of us grew up. Uh, I attended Johnston High School. I was on the Confederate yearbook, um, staff I wrote for the Shiloh newspaper. I mean, when I go on, I mean, this is sort of what we were immersed in. The normalization of the lost cause as like, this is totally fine. Usually when you’re in, Dr George writes class as a 19 year old, you’re like, Wait a minute. That is a different story than what I was told before. So I think the honest appraisal and I think you have to think of this as a as a journey right. There is no need to have a immediate reaction to confounding information or complicating information. You can take the time needed with it, and you can develop a perspective over time. And, um, I I think if if we had simply said, well, the song is going to stay here, is going to go, let’s just move on. And instead of said, Let’s look at this history and use it as a learning tool. Um, there’s incredible opportunity for us to think about not just this campus but this community. I mean, it’s it’s a coincidence. But the week before our report came out, the City Council, um, came out with the apology to, uh, the city of the city apologized for the 1928 city plan. If we’re not thinking about these things in connection with each other, then we’re missing an opportunity. And I see this opportunity for leadership. Um, I’ve heard people say, Well, don’t you think that this is a distraction for recruiting and athletics and, you know, recruiting students. And I’m like, I would rather people come to the University of Texas and know that we are having an honest and difficult conversation and reflection moment than just move. Move past it. That’s convenient. That’s probably the PR thing to do. But honestly, universities are placed where we take on. We called wicked problems, right? Complex, thorny, previously unresolved issues, and we work on them. And so maybe that solution is not present or apparent to us now, But it starts with this engagement, I think, and so I I totally get it I talked to people on both sides of, you know, keep the song, get rid of the song and they said to me, I want to move past this And I said to them, I know we’re fatigued in a lot of ways, but this is the history and and we have to reckon with it. And like I said, it doesn’t mean you have to become a fan of the song or you have to become an opponent of song. It means you have to when it’s convenient, when it makes sense to you when you have the mental space to do it, reckon with it and and that’s it’s University of Texas. It’s the song, It’s our symbols. It’s our, It’s our political parties. It’s our geographical spaces. It’s all those things. And so maybe this is an exemplar and a starting point for those conversations that we have to have. Maybe Rich. I think that’s such an insightful comment, and I think it it actually builds on the wisdom of our jurisprudence. Uh, we’ve long had in place the recognition that the American flag is our national symbol, but that you and I and any citizen is not under any obligation to worship it in a particular way. Other countries require people to worship their flags. We don’t we can react to it as we wish. We can stand and salute it. We cannot stand and salute it. And and I think it opens a space for exactly this dialogue and every generation of civil rights activists has grappled with us. What what relationship should we have to the flag? Martin Luther King has a different approach to it than Malcolm X and our good friend Peniel. Joseph has written a lot about this, and that’s a productive conversation. And and I interpret what you’re saying is that we should use this moment to create these kinds of productive, if difficult, conversations around these issues. Yeah, I think that’s exactly it. And we have to start with, you know, setting norms for conversations, right, uh, and ensuring that people’s perspectives are respected. And one of the most disturbing aspects of all of this is the fact that when we had student leaders and students, uh, athletes vocalized concerns, they were treated horribly, or they were told that they didn’t have the right kind of respect and reverence and in fact, that was disrespectful. Um, you can look at this from multiple perspectives in your world, your life experience, the way that you know you have shaped experiences shaped your your life will impact how you understand this, and that is valid. And what I said to a number of of student leaders is like, you know, thank you. Thank you for making this an issue that couldn’t be ignored or move past that we had to reckon with. Because if you hadn’t, then the film’s exclusion and marginalisation continue. Um, the divisions grow deeper, and frankly, I think that’s what needs to happen again. We need to be in those spaces that we actually sit with complex things and we do it in community. And we do it with a sense of support that people can change, how they feel about things, and people can talk to each other and hear from people who have different perspectives and account for those perspectives and think about well, Can I have the ability to empathize with your perspective? If I don’t agree with it, can I at least understand where you’re coming from? How you come to think about what you think about and it moves beyond a song to life experience. My experience is interacting with the educational system with criminal justice system. With the legal system, you name it. Those are all things we have to. We would all benefit from having an understanding of people from a broad spectrum of the perspectives talking about those things. So what you’ve defined, Rich, I think, is the dream of democracy that we all strive for and that our that our podcast in many ways is about and you’ve articulated it and exemplified it so beautifully. Zachary, do you find among, um, other young people like yourself when you discuss issues as I know you do on the diversity Council at school, in other contexts, do you find that, um, rituals, ephemera like the eyes of Texas that they can create this productive conversation or not? And if not, what can we do to move into the space that rich articulates so well, you know, if if I’m honest, I think that there’s a real issue with how we discuss these kinds of ephemera, um, and rituals, uh, as young people, I found that that is really hard to have a conversation that doesn’t either lapse into platitudes or become simply about, uh, being either a racist or or not a racist and that there’s only one correct side of an issue. Um, and I think that it’s really important. I I think that the core issue is that we, as a society, are really struggling with with with with grappling with the complexity of our history. And it’s really hard for us as Americans to accept that our history can be both one of oppression and one of freedom and democracy, and that those two can coexist and that they do coexist. And I think that the issue of rituals and ephemera really highlights that and and brings that out. It’s really hard to talk about. I think that’s right. I find that among adults among scholars, among colleagues, uh, it’s very hard to avoid these overstated platitudinous generalizations that have some truth to them, of course, but that make it very hard to find common common, ground rich. Final question. Where do you hope we are on this topic in five years? What? What What should we be talking about when we do a retrospective on your report. It’s republished and you write a new introduction to that volume before it’s read by people all across the country. What will we say in five years? Well, you know, first of all, the professors Suri are always great to engage with. Exactly. That was an amazing reflection, which is what I think I’ve come to understand as well the complexity and sitting with, um, the angels and devils right at the same time. Right? Um, and are urged to say, Well, no, this this is this is inherently good or mostly good, or this is inherently bad and mostly bad and realizing. Actually, it’s not that simple. Um, So something I told our friends in the media the day that the report was released was, You know, I’m glad you’re here today, but I hope you come back in a year in two years and five years and 10 years because the the end of the report, the fourth charge from President Hartzell, was one of the things that we can do to educate the community about the ice of Texas and use it as a tool for learning and understanding. And so, to me, that’s where the energy and excitement. Is those 40 recommendations for the 40 acres? Uh, and some other things that we put in there that were not necessary recommendation but things that we thought needed to be addressed our opportunities. And, you know, if the eyes of Texas is, in fact, an accountability song, can the university, in fact, be accountable? Because we’ve talked a lot about conversations and conversations are the starting point, but conversations had to be supported with meaningful action. Um, and that is a charting of many actions that the community and the committee felt could be taken and should be taken, um, to move in a direction together. And there’s the opportunity for reconciliation, is there? But we have to first of all, confront the truth. And, um, you know, my hope is in five years, we can say at the University of Texas led in the space, um, you know, the first time it happened, it looked like it was really rough, and people were really polarized. But, you know, people started having conversations. People started working together and planning on meaningful actions that made the campus more inclusive and welcoming. And we are still humbly trying to do better. Uh, we have not arrived. But we are certainly on the way to that direction. And we can chart the progress. And, um, what we’ve done, we have metrics. We have, uh, accountability measures to understand what we’ve done. And we’ve made some mistakes. We tried something that didn’t work, but it was all in the spirit of trying to move towards more inclusive and welcoming space. So, you know, I think people often think that the directory is going to be completely uphill, right? And, you know, I’m talking to a historian and a very wise, uh, future academic and Zachary and you all know that’s not the way things work. So we have to calibrate our expectations, too, to be patient in understand that if we are resolute and working towards this goal, we have to also have the ability to reflect to change direction if we need to, uh, but most importantly, stay committed to this cause. And I think it’s a cause that I’ve been sort of surprised at how many people have said I want to do work in the space, right? Like I think it’s a problem that people don’t feel included and welcome the University of Texas. I want to change that in some way. Right? Right. You know, it reminds me of a lot of what Franklin Roosevelt, who is in many ways the inspiration for our podcast, what he said about the four freedoms. You know, we would articulate these freedoms that our society was about. We would recognize that we were far from their full achievement, but they would They would inspire us to keep talking and keep trying. And that’s what democracy is. And I think rich you. You you exemplify that. And your report, uh, stands as a marker as a historical marker for us. You’ve made history in pushing this conversation forward, and we really appreciate your taking the time to talk to us about it and share your insights with our listeners. Thank you for being with us rich. Well, thanks, Jeremy. And and thank Zachary. And, you know, I say it’s the most humility I can muster is that the committee I worked with were simply an amazing group of people who volunteered their time. Um, always make the point. That Andrew vote Committee member called in from tomorrow. He was in Singapore, And so he would call them from Friday morning, Thursday evening calls and just exemplifies that people, you know, juggle babies and, you know, worked around dinner and all the different things to be part of this. And people often said, What do you What was your process like? And I’m like, you have to understand, Our process was we met on certain days, but people were working throughout the week, so this was a labor of love. And, um, I think that’s something that I’m very humbled by the fact that 25 people committed to doing the work in that same manner. And so, yeah, I just think this is a super exciting to talk about it. And I know we’re gonna have more conversations. I don’t think necessarily reckoned that we have more work to do. Uh, you know, and certainly I’m up for it, but it’s it’s sort of like finishing the report was only the first part, right? That’s right. Um, and folks are ready to have this conversation, so I look forward to having more complex The This is true about all of our scholarship rich. We write the report or we write the book, but the readers finish it. That’s right. And we’re part of that process. Zachary. Thank you. As always for your poem, your insights and your perspective and most of all, thank you to our loyal listeners. Uh, thank you for joining us for this episode of This is democracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm. This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts I. T s Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Mhm. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harris Komotini. Stay tuned for a new episode Every week you can find this is democracy on apple podcasts, Spotify and stitcher. See you next time