This is Democracy – Episode 131: Insurrection: White Supremacist Riots from Charlottesville (2017) to the Capitol (2021)

[0:00:03 Speaker 0] This’ll is Democracy, a podcast that explores the interracial inter generational and intersectional unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy. You know what welcome [0:00:27 Speaker 1] to our new episode of This Is Democracy, our first new episode of 2021. We took two weeks off and we missed talking to all of you. Our listeners and we are back there. There are a number of things to talk about in the history and current crisis of democracy in our world today, and we’re going to start the year by talking about the topic, which I think dominates not just the news of today, but will dominate the history of our period, the Siris of riotous violent attacks upon the institutions, the core institutions of American democracy in the most recent few years. Uh, this culminated in many ways with the violent insurrectionary attack on the U. S capital on Wednesday, January 6th. And we have with us today, uh, a leading historian who has done more work than anyone else to look at the Siris of violent attacks on democracy on its institutions and its principles over the last four years. This is of course, historian Nicole Hemmer She’s a political historian specializing in media conservatism in the far right three. Author of a book that really opened many of our eyes to the role of right wing media messengers of the right conservative media and the transformation of American politics. Um, she is also the founder co editor of Made by History, one of the most important historical analyses and sections on American politics and history today in The Washington Post. Uh, she’s a columnist for about 7000 other newspapers rights everywhere. You can’t avoid work, and I encourage you to read her work wherever you see it. Relevant for our discussion today, though, is her fantastic. Um, collection off discussions in her six part podcast, Siris 8 12. The story of Charlottesville, the white power terrorism in Charlottesville, Virginia of 2017. We’re gonna talk about that, of course today, Nikki. Thanks so much for making time to talk to us. [0:02:30 Speaker 0] Thank you so much for having me, Jeremy, [0:02:33 Speaker 1] before we turn to our discussion with Nikki Hammer, we have, of course, Zachary’s scene setting poem. And, uh, you wrote a lot of poems over the holidays, Zachary, but but this one, I think, took particular effort on your part because you were moved yourself. What is the title of your poem today? Perhaps you will consider this a eulogy. Okay, let’s hear it. I see myself in the television screen where the man stands in a sweatshirt that says six million was not enough when I was six years old, [0:03:05 Speaker 0] with my mother and sister staring up at it in [0:03:07 Speaker 1] the snow. With a fever and a headache, I feel that heat. Those aching bones can almost touch the remnants snow, where the [0:03:15 Speaker 0] jackboots and the militiamen and the flags are now used as battering rams toe [0:03:20 Speaker 1] enter the proud rotunda of the old building on the hill. I can smell the polished leather chairs of the chambers where the gunfight rumps feet from the ghost of Lincoln. I can feel that dizzying fire as the windows are broken and the china porcelain of the land smashed on the marble blocks just beyond the steps of those marble balustrades where I stood and watched the building [0:03:43 Speaker 0] fade into the snowy hill. Ah, camera is punched out. Ah, microphone crushed. And that battle flag, a bloodstain is on the steps. I am reminded of that photograph archaic now of Boston in black and white. Ah, flag dark and ominous, stabbed into a crowd as if the patriots are the insurrectionists, the beer belly putsch unfolding in the halls [0:04:07 Speaker 1] before our eyes. And perhaps you will consider this a eulogy. I see myself six years old, trying to catch sight of the tip of the dome from [0:04:16 Speaker 0] my sick bed in the [0:04:17 Speaker 1] hotel room, and I see the light tripped. Fantastic. Oh, the glow of flames on the sidewalks trashed and overthrown the trembling sidewalks of Washington. I love the flashbacks and time in that Zachary from the present to the past. What is your poem about? My poem is really about watching the destruction or the defacement of of such [0:04:43 Speaker 0] an iconic American institution as the United States Capitol that we all grew up revealing. Um, and it’s about living through that in a very emotional way, and I was constantly thinking about my experience, not not even coming close to the capital, but seeing it from afar and how important that was to me. And I think that [0:05:03 Speaker 1] it was really a very horrific moment. Toe watch it [0:05:06 Speaker 0] happening in real time, but I think it was also something that I will remember forever sitting on the couch watching the TV as suddenly this erupted in D. C. Nikki, how did how did you [0:05:19 Speaker 1] experience the attack on the capital last week? [0:05:23 Speaker 0] Well, there was something eerily familiar about it. I mean, I was watching it on television from my home in New York City. Um, but for us, much as it was a unparalleled event, um, there was something that was so familiar from watching what had unfolded in Charlottesville watching what has happened with militia violence over the past several years. I mean, we’ve seen armed people surrounding and mobbing state Capitol buildings. We’ve seen the mix of Confederate and US flags and all of these other symbols, um, of both trumpism and of the white power movement, all mingling together. And so in those moments, it just felt so similar. But of course, it felt very different as well, because as a Zacks poem really makes this point. Unlike the scene in Charlottesville, the U. S. Capitol is a symbol. It’s a symbol of American government. It’s a symbol of American democracy, eh? So much so that it was one of the three places that terrorist on 9 11 sought to destroy when they were striking at the heart of American power. And so to see U. S. Citizens calling themselves patriot, finishing the work in some ways that those terrorists were unable to do on that day with something that not only was a punch in the gut, but I think explains why Americans are so just startled and overcome right now because it wasn’t just an attack on a small town in Virginia. It was an attack right on the heart in the seat of American democracy. [0:07:06 Speaker 1] Yet in spite of these differences, you certainly see a continuity, a connection between what you experienced firsthand and recounted so well in Charlottesville in August 2017 and what we saw now in 2021. Yes, [0:07:21 Speaker 0] yes. I mean, there’s so many parallels that it’s it’s hard to list them all. I mean, one that was particularly striking to me was I was quite taken aback in Charlottesville in 2017, at not only the massive police presence but how ineffective those law enforcement officers were and how unwilling they were to engage with the white power terrorist that were in Charlottesville that day, even though they’ve had plenty of warning that they were going to be a source of significant violence. And once again in the capital. You know, there had been weeks of notice that this kind of organizing was happening. Everyone had a heads up that this could go badly very quickly. But this persistent unwillingness to take seriously right wing violence in the United States watching that play out again after we’ve had so much warning about this, I mean that the Department of Homeland Security under Donald Trump calls right wing violence the most persistent and lethal threat in the United States. And yet still, there is not that kind of response that you would want to see when armed insurrectionist appear at the US Capitol. And so I was very struck by the continuity in terms of policing and in terms of the lack of imagination around the threat of this kind of violence. What do you see [0:08:46 Speaker 1] is the roots of this sort [0:08:47 Speaker 0] of ineffectiveness at the Capitol beyond just ignoring white terrorism. But But what unfolded? We still haven’t had a [0:08:54 Speaker 1] sort of clear picture of what went wrong from a [0:08:57 Speaker 0] law enforcement and Department of Defense perspective. So I think that there are a couple of things and you’re right that we don’t have the full picture yet. We don’t know which people were complicit in what happened on last Wednesday. So we don’t wanna go too far. But I mean, certainly again, this this lack of imagination. But also we have plenty of reports about the way that white power activists have infiltrated police departments have infiltrated the military. How Maney veterans are active in white power and radical right wing groups, which is not to say it all that all police officers are all members of the military are involved. But just to say that these institutions are particularly vulnerable. And so part of what we’re asking law enforcement to Dio is to imagine themselves as one of the sources of threat. And you could understand why that would be very difficult to dio. So I think that that’s part of it as well. And then there is, you know, a challenge, especially when it comes to white protesters and insistence on seeing these events as free speech events. Aziz primarily about the First Amendment when there has been so many intimations of violence around it. I mean, in the case of Charlottesville, there had been a massive act of political intimidation and political violence that took place on August 11th with the torchlight march onto the grounds of the University of Virginia. The attacks on anti racist activist and yet still the event the next day was treated as a free speech event, and the police and law enforcement saw themselves there to protect free speech rather than to defend against political violence. And I think that speech framework needs to have a little more analysis, and we need to think a little bit harder about the way that the claim of free speech is used to cover the planning for violence. [0:11:00 Speaker 1] That’s such an important topic. Nikki Um, and I think it’s important just to articulate. What is the difference between a Z, you see it a free speech demonstration like a black lives matter demonstration, what we saw in Lafayette Square or what you had in Charlottesville after the terrible violence and right wing writing. What is the difference between a free speech event and what you’re clearly identifying as a violent white supremacist event? [0:11:30 Speaker 0] Well, a couple of things. I mean, in the case of many of these efforts, there is a it’s planning for violence, right? There is a lot of coordinating beforehand in order to make sure that people come with arms that won’t be taken away from them. So in the case of Charlottesville, they obviously had long guns, but they made sure they had chains and sticks and other types of weapons. Um, and of course, this was the case and in D. C as well that there were some people who carried arms, which is not allowed in Washington, D. C. They had other forms of weapons as well. So if people are planning ahead of time to engage in mass acts of violence, that’s a pretty good sign that it’s not a free speech rally. But I think that in legal expert Dahlia Lithwick is very good at this. She talks about the ways that the Second Amendment swallows. The first on this is a bit more of a gray area, but if you have a group of people who are protesting while armed to the teeth, that doesn’t really create a space for counter protesting and for a riel exchange of ideas or for there to be unequal opportunity for free speech. So I think, in addition, Thio not treating plans for violence is, though they are free speech or plans for free speech rally. I think we also need to think about the way that heavily armed groups like we saw in Virginia early last year can become a pointed, which people’s choice to bear arms actually overwhelms our political freedoms, our freedom to assemble our freedom of speech and the freedom of our representatives to gather and conduct the work of government. [0:13:13 Speaker 1] Right, right. I think it’s such an eloquent point you made and so important that you know there is a difference. It seems to me between a group coming together to peacefully demonstrate in favor of civil rights or in favor of inclusion or whatever, the whatever it is versus a group that’s seeking Thio undermine institutions, create violence and create havoc on. But it does seem as if that’s that’s what occurred both in Charlottesville, in in Washington, D. C. And many other places. Nikki, you’ve spent so much time looking so closely as a historians dio at at events in Charlottesville who were the people involved in Charlottesville? And do you see parallels in In In the people involved in Washington, D. C as well? [0:13:55 Speaker 0] So in the buildup to Charlottesville, which was organized by a proud boy named Jason Kessler So a member of this far right street gang and by Richard Spencer, who is ah, white power advocate Um, what you saw as far as like, the roster of speakers, even though this was done under the label, unite the right. This was largely a group of Klansmen like David Duke, violent neo Nazis. So from the very get go, this was something that was being organized on the violent far right, um, for violent. And even though it was framed as a free speech rally and when it came to that day, you saw all kinds of groups identity Europa, the traditional worker’s party, all of these violent far right, some of them neo fascists and neo Confederate. Some neo Nazi groups coming together on day. They represented sort of the uniting of this far violent right, this far fascist right. But it didn’t have much appeal beyond those groups, even though the president would go on to say that they were very fine people on both sides. There simply weren’t very fine people collaborating with violent neo Nazis. I feel definitely definition Aly Weaken Say that when it came thio the violence in the capital, you saw a lot of those same groups. How many of them were incognito? We know that the proud boys were there, um they were leading some of the action in the capital, but they were not wearing their traditional uniforms. Um, you also had contingents of people who believe in the Q and on conspiracy theory. You had people from America first and the groupers, which is this far right replacement in some ways for the all right. And then you just had people who were trump supporters who believed because the president and their media outlets have told them that the election had been stolen from Donald Trump and they needed to do something to stop it, and in many ways looking at it now, the mission of the Unite the right rally in Charlottesville to bring all of these right wing groups together was actually played out at the US Capitol building because you had all of these groups united together a much bigger group of people united under the Trump banner who staged the attack on the capital. And so there’s definitely a continuity there. But it was just a much broader coalition, thanks to the work that Donald Trump has done over the past four years. And what do [0:16:20 Speaker 1] these rioters and insurrectionists? What [0:16:23 Speaker 0] do they [0:16:23 Speaker 1] hope to achieve? I mean, in a certain way, it seems like such a doomed cause, right? I mean, when they, you know, they cause violence in Charlottesville, they cause violence at the Capitol, and it generally galvanizes people in opposition to them. Um, the vote certification continued. The University of Virginia continue toe continued on, continued to admit diverse students, maybe even doubled down on admitting diverse students. So So what do they hope to achieve? [0:16:52 Speaker 0] So it depends on the group. I mean, I do think that there were a lot of people at the Capitol who believed that they really were going to be able to stop the election from being certified, that we might look at that and say, That’s, Ah, mass delusion. But I think there were a lot of people there who really believed that was going to happen? Um, others are looking to sow chaos. We talk some when we talk about the far right about acceleration ist about, um, there were there wasn’t a big boogaloo contingent, but people who want to start a civil war who want to destabilize the United States, who want to bring down democracy and replace it with ah far right fascist regime there certainly people there who had that goal as well. Um, people who believe that there right and believe that because they’re right, they should be able to use unrestrained force in order. Thio get what they want. You can also think of that these events and we’ll certainly be thought about Charlottesville this way. I think we’ll ultimately think about the U. S. Capitol attack this way as recruitment events. So what we saw after Charlottesville was the collapse of some of the groups involved Identity Europa and the traditional worker’s party. Those both disbanded, Um, in the years after Charlottesville, but we have seen a tremendous amount of far right terrorism in the United States and around the world, some of which was inspired by Charlottesville. And I look at the US Capitol attack and that me seems like, ah, huge recruiting event for people who look at what happened, and they’re not horrified by it, but they’re excited by it. They’re inspired by it. Could you actually bring down the U. S government if you were just willing to put enough force behind it? I think a lot of people looked at that and said, Yeah, I’d like to get in on that. So when I think forward to what this will inspire what this was meant to achieve One of the things some of the people there wanted it to achieve is the growth of these far right movements, [0:18:51 Speaker 1] right? And it’s It’s a point that historians of fascism have made for so long, which is that the violence becomes an end in it of itself. That’s one of the definitions of fascism, at least for historians that that it’s a self actualizing mechanism. Right. You go out and you, you you create violence and you feel your valuable. You feel you matter. You feel you have voice because you’re doing this. We find that so counterproductive from the way we think about democracy. But we’re thinking about it in the wrong wrong framework aren’t way. [0:19:19 Speaker 0] Yeah, I think democracy is the wrong framework for thinking about this. We’ve seen this a lot in the aftermath of the attack on the U. S. Capitol that there have been people who want to see this as Democrats versus Republicans or left vs right to sort of fit it in the framework of politics that we’re used to talking about. But this is not that right. This is pro democracy versus anti democracy. This is pro fascism versus anti fascism. This is pro liberalism vs Il liberalism. And those are the terms of the debate and the terms of the fight. And if we don’t acknowledge that we’re playing on a very different political ground now, we’re going to continue to misunderstand the power of this political violence in our midst. What about the redefinition of patriotism? We saw so many people as they were literally tearing down or attempting to tear down the institutions of American government, battering themselves into the capital with American flags. How? How? How do these groups understand the idea of patriotism and and And how has that moved beyond the sort of institutions of government that we usually associate with those symbols. It’s such a great question, Zachary and you had referenced in your poem this award winning photograph from 1974 anti bussing um, demonstration, where a white man had picked up an American flag and tried to spear ah, black man with it. And that symbol of the inversion of patriotism or the defense of ah kind of white American patriotism is something that we’ve seen before in our history. We see these images from the 19 twenties of the Ku Klux Klan marching down Washington D. C, with the capital in the background waving American flags. So this isn’t the first time that the American flag, in the language of patriotism, have been co opted for violence or for anti democratic causes. What I think is so effective, about co opting those symbols about talking about themselves in the language of patriots is that it it can muddle the conversation for people who aren’t as tuned into these conversations. I think that for many Americans, when they talk about things like fascism, they see it as something foreign. And that’s something that we saw in Charlottesville, right? The flying of the Nazi flag in Charlottesville was so jarring to so many people for a lot of reasons, but especially because here was this foreign symbol being marched down American streets. And we often think the same way about fascism, that it’s something foreign and so a fascist aren’t going to be chanting U S A. U. S A. That’s something that patriots do that Americans do. And so, by trying Thio claim the flag trying to claim patriotism. What we’re seeing is a kind of muddying of the waters about how anti democratic this movement actually is. But there’s a real power and symbols, and there’s a real power and claiming the legacy of America. The people who are marching on the capital were calling out 17 76 because they saw themselves as working in the tradition of the people who founded the country and threw off the British monarchy. And so it’s not just powerful as a signal to outsiders, but it is powerful as a message to themselves about the rightness of their cause [0:22:47 Speaker 1] and and your your point about symbolism. Nikki brings up also the question, of course, of the Confederate flag and one of the horrible consequences of the events in Washington is now. The Confederate flag, which never flew within or was never carried within the capital during the Civil War, was now carried within the capital and phone at the Capitol by these insurrectionists on. Of course, Confederate symbols were used in Charlottesville on in 2017. What’s the significance of that? [0:23:19 Speaker 0] We have been in the midst of decades long but also the last five years in particular a riel conversation and a real battle over the meaning of these Confederate symbols. On def. You had asked me back in 2017 whether I thought that the Confederate flag would ever be marched through the capital, I would have said no, because, of course, that was a time when we were starting to take down Confederate flags and when we were starting to take down Confederate statues. Um, but there are people who are really fervent in their defense of those symbols and what they stand for, which is, Ah, white racist American past. And I think that even more than that there is if history is not repeating itself. Certainly the same historical process that we saw after the Civil War is something that Donald Trump and his supporters are engaged in, you know, in the United States after the Civil War, after Reconstruction, there was a kind of devil’s bargain made, um, Thio have unity and have peace among white Americans to move forward and just agree that everyone had fought honorably and had been patriotic in their fights during the Civil War, and that peace and unity was built on the back of black Americans who would be second class citizens in the Jim Crow South well into the 19 sixties and the same kind of lost cause mythology, the same kind of desire for unity. Um, the same kind of we need you to acknowledge that we were right, even when we were fighting for very wrong things. Um, that’s what we see. Shaping the debate after the attack on the U. S. Capitol and that kind of lost cause narrative that fueled the White South’s Confederate memory for so long is fueling the idea that, you know, Donald Trump actually won the election, and these people really believed that he wanted. And so they were just in there cause even if they went a little too far, so it’s not just that the Confederate symbols are still there. It’s not just that the ideas of rebellion and defense of a white America are still there, but the same kind of historical processes of corrupting our historical memory are playing out even as we speak. But what about those who are complicit in many of these many of these incidents on and and terror attacks? But but who are working from within the institutions [0:25:54 Speaker 1] and who come from some of the most elite institutions in America, People like Ted Cruz and Josh Holly, who, while [0:26:00 Speaker 0] not necessarily complicit in the violence, spurred on the kind of lies that caused the violence of the capital last week? This is a great question, too, because there is, uh, fundamental misunderstanding of racism and of fascism and of anti Democratic action, where we tend Thio think about these things as being caused by ignorance being caused by a lack of exposure to other things being caused in part by poverty. There was a piece that was written after the attack on the capital. Um, that was making fun of the people who were there and basically saying, you know, these were poor white trash people who had come to the U. S. Capitol and who were roaming around slack job looking at everything. That’s not who these people were. And this is including, like the people in the Senate. This was a coalition of people, ah, lot of whom have a lot of money, a lot of whom are well educated, who come up through these institutions. Um, certainly Harvard and Yale have produced more than their fair share of people who support racist ideas who support anti Democratic ideas. Thinking about this as a problem of class or thinking of this is a problem of ignorance. I think is a real mistake. I think we have to think about it as a problem of power and that power is refined in all sorts of or that lust for power is refined in all sorts of institutions, including at Ivy League universities, including at military academies, including in the U. S. Congress. And just because somebody like Ted Cruz or Josh Holly isn’t pulling out a weapon, they are still complicity in this violence and they’re still doing violence to American democracy. I think that’s something that has gotten a little bit lost in Our conversation in the weeks since this happened is that even as you had this violent mob, but that was attacking the capital in order to subvert American democracy, what they actually did was they interrupted a group of Republicans who were in the process of using the Congress to subvert American democracy so they might have different means. But they’re very much on the same page. This is a much bigger project that’s being fought on a lot of different fronts. [0:28:19 Speaker 1] It’s so well, said Nicky. And of course, when the rioters on insurrectionist breached the capital entered the capital, the members of the Senate and the House were debating, If you want to call it that right efforts by Senator Ted Cruz and others to hold up the counting of the electors from Arizona without any evidence of any fraud. And so it Z actually very symbolic that the insurrectionists had members of Congress who, in a sense, were doing their bidding inside the building at [0:28:51 Speaker 0] this time. Yeah, please. And Jeremy. Then, as there was still blood drawing on the floor of the Capitol, those same members of Congress went back and continue to carry out that work. So it was. It was something that wasn’t even interrupted except for a few hours. Um, by this by this insurrection of the capital. [0:29:12 Speaker 1] Absolutely true. And I actually just published a piece on this yesterday that you know, it’s your point Is so well said that the members of Congress and others who have been supportive of these lies about the election and others are some of the most educated, privileged people. So it’s very hard to come away from this moment and think that education is the solution. One of the things we found was that actually, the Republicans are more educated than the Democrats. Republican supporters of the lies are more educated than people who are exposing the lies and trying to stick to the truth, eh? So what do we do, Nikki? If if education is not the solution, you and I, as educators always like to think [0:29:49 Speaker 0] that we can teach [0:29:50 Speaker 1] people to do the right thing. But maybe not. What? What should we dio? [0:29:56 Speaker 0] So obviously I had a complete answer to this. I would be out there pursuing it. I think it’s a very difficult problem. I think that it’s a generational problem. I think we’ve started to see one of the things that you dio, which is that you don’t provide platforms for the dissemination and the amplification of lies that are harmful to democracy. Donald Trump was kicked off of social media less than a week ago, and that has a real effect when his tweets are no longer allowed. Thio, you know, ricochet throughout social media when his lies aren’t able to be amplified on Facebook. That makes a real difference. When these Cuban on sites are taken down from social media, it doesn’t end the conspiracy. It doesn’t end the power that the president has, but what it does is it starts to slow it on. Git could be that, you know, we’re several years too late on this in a way, because we have now the better part of a generation that has grown up in social media, having algorithms and sites constantly exposed. People thio racism to anti democratic ideas, all sorts of conspiracies. You know, it’s one thing for someone to go on the Internet and already be radicalized and look for groups to connect with. It’s another thing for someone to go on YouTube and maybe they’re interested in hearing, Ah, conservative speak. And so they click on a link and then the next video that their show to somebody who’s a little more to the right and then by the end of the day there, watching Richard Spencer and Neo Nazi talk about the need to defend the white race like we have to dismantle some of those systems and that’s not an educational effort. But it’s just how do we stop mass poisoning the brains off millions of Americans? It’s not a cohesive answer. I mean, there’s a generational civic education process in which we have Thio reaffirm that democracy is a good form of government. There is institutional work to be done to make sure that institutions are trustworthy before we can begin to rebuild people’s trust in institutions. So there’s a lot of work to be done. It’s not going to be done next year. There’s still a lot of danger ahead, but it’s work that we if we haven’t already started on it. We need Thio to start on it now, and technology companies have a role to play. Officials have a role to play. Professors have a role to play all citizens, Um, and people in the U. S. Have a role to play if they are committed. Thio the defense of American democracy [0:32:35 Speaker 1] that that’s very pragmatic and and, I think very helpful. Nikki and I think you’ve talked about this already in the case of Charlottesville, and and in some ways it’s It’s a continuation of what you’re defining as a long term project to restore understanding, faith and commitment to democratic principles and practices on, Of course, we can only begin by exposing the horror by looking at the horror in front of us rather than trying to cover it up. Zachary, as as someone who is deeply concerned about these events. As I know many of your friends are, um what? How do you think young people are looking at this? Do you do you see hope in much of what Nicky’s talking about here? Because it is a hopeful message of how we can restore faith in our democracy. Do you see hope in this? I [0:33:24 Speaker 0] think so. I think my generation is really having a a political trial by fire thinks past year and [0:33:31 Speaker 1] a half or so. Uh, [0:33:32 Speaker 0] but I also think that I do think that education is in many ways the solution as well, because I think part of the problem is that too often we teach history and civics as if there are these many different perspectives on government, each of them equally valid instead of actually talking about, like accurate historical analysis and an understanding of American democracy as a flawed but evolving system. And I think that part of the problem is that we failed to educate people on the principles behind our democracy, even while we’ve been teaching them how to take advantage of them, take advantage of the processes in our institutions. Zachary, do you think enough [0:34:12 Speaker 1] is done? Thio encourage young people to commit their lives and think about public service in the truest sense that Nikki is talking about it as as faith and commitment to democracy rather than just success and getting ahead. 11 of the things we’ve certainly seen at universities. Both Nikki and I’ve commented on, and Nikki referred to what I’ve I’ve written about it, too, which is the you know, the sense that universities air mawr training people to succeed materially rather than to commit themselves to our principles. How do you see that at the high school and middle school level? [0:34:45 Speaker 0] I don’t think we do enough thio educate young people about the importance of public service. But I don’t think that means like telling, like being sanctimonious about and and and and la la la about how great [0:34:58 Speaker 1] it is to serve [0:34:58 Speaker 0] one’s country. I think it’s really about by leading by example and and showing students how they can lead successful lives while still contributing to their communities and not simply gaining success for [0:35:11 Speaker 1] themselves. Great, Nikki, I want to give you the last word. You’ve shared so many insights with us, and I’m always eso in awe of your ability to discuss these very difficult issues in clear and courageous, uh, ways. What are you looking to see in the next few weeks? What would be positive steps that we all can look for and even contribute to in the next few weeks? [0:35:34 Speaker 0] Well, I think we are seeing some positive signs, although they’re small, but I mean, having corporations come out and say that they’re no longer going to fund the Republicans who voted against, um, certifying the election having some Republicans come forward and say, Not only are they going to impeach but being very clear about the president’s complicity in the things that happened last week, e think that those are good signs because they are signals that there is the possibility off not just a democratic opposition to all of this, but a pro democracy alliance emerging. Now that’s something that is going to require quite a lot of sustenance. It’s going to require quite a lot of incentivizing in order for it to hold together. But if we can think about our politics in those terms pro democracy, not pro democracy, think about our alliances in those terms and really commit ourselves thio strengthening the foundation of American democracy and defending it, then I think we’re moving in a good direction. And so, looking forward in the next few weeks in the next few months, if you see some of these alliances continue to hold together, if we don’t immediately after the election of after the inauguration of Joe Biden, fall back into the same old patterns of politics that have been, um, defining our politics at least for the last 30 years, Um, then I think that there’s something to hope for. If we do see kind of a return to normal, then it is incumbent upon us to get out there and to continue to raise the alarm bells about what has happened to American democracy, how we need to defend it and really get down to the grassroots and the hard and boring work of defining and defending democracy. [0:37:28 Speaker 1] I couldn’t think of a better way to say it. Then you just did. Our unity comes from our commitment to democracy, not to a party or covering up the bad behavior of the past. And we’ve learned that lesson time and again in our history, in the history of other societies. Nikki, thank you so much for sharing your insights on the events of the last few years, the historical perspective and and giving us really hopeful, though difficult pathway forward. It’s really wonderful having you on. Thank you so much. [0:37:57 Speaker 0] Thank you so much for having me [0:37:59 Speaker 1] and thank you, of course, to a Zachary for your eloquent poem and insights and thank you most of all to our listeners. Thank you for joining us for this episode of this is democracy. This’ll podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. [0:38:22 Speaker 0] Theme music in [0:38:23 Speaker 1] this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke, and you can find his music at Harrison Lemke dot com. [0:38:29 Speaker 0] Subscribe and stay tuned for a new episode every Thursday, featuring new perspectives on democracy. Yeah, yeah