This is Democracy – Episode 124: Deportations

[0:00:03 Speaker 0] This is Democracy, a podcast that explores the interracial inter generational and inter sectional unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy.

[0:00:23 Speaker 2] Mm.

[0:00:24 Speaker 1] Mhm. Yeah. Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week we’re going to discuss a very troubling but crucial topic for us as we think about the history of our democracy, its present and its future. Uh, the role of deportations, deportations of asylum seekers coming to our country. This is not a new phenomenon. It’s actually an old phenomenon. But it’s a phenomenon that has deepened and increased in number. Uh, during the last few years, we have with us one of the foremost individuals working on these issues. She’s a lawyer, a scholar, a public intellectual. Uh, Ruth Hargrove. Thank you for joining us today, Ruth.

[0:01:08 Speaker 0] Thank you so much for having me. This is really an honor.

[0:01:11 Speaker 1] Ruth is a professor at California Western School of Law. She runs a pro bono practice representing domestic violence victims, students and disciplinary matters, and tenant and landlord tenant claims. She retired from teaching in 2018 to have more time to work full time on responding to President Trump’s destructive policies. Uh, She has a pro bono practice now that concentrates on asylum law, which will be talking with her about working with Jewish Family Services of San Diego, the Immigration Justice Project and the Board of Immigration Appeals. Pro Bono Project. You are very busy, Ruth, aren’t you?

[0:01:47 Speaker 0] Yes, particularly in the last few days. There’s actually a plane on the ground in Texas right now getting ready to deport 68 Cameroonians to their very likely imprisonment or torture or death. Um, and so I’ve been, um I’ve been working with a number of very committed people and lawyers and politicians and journalists and trying to do everything we can to stop that plane. It’s we’ve been trying to trend on Twitter with the hashtag stop the death plane, and we were able to save a few people. Um, but just a handful. Wow.

[0:02:35 Speaker 1] Well, we will talk about this in more depth in a few minutes, and we’re very grateful for all that. You do, Uh, and grateful, though feeling a little guilty now that you’re taking time to talk to us. Uh, but but hopefully this conversation will educate many listeners, and they can become a part of helping you and others who work on these issues. Before we turn to our deeper discussion with Ruth, we have, as always, our scene setting poem for Mr Zachary. Sorry, Zachary. What’s the title of your poem this week?

[0:03:04 Speaker 2] This may seem a little odd, but it’s a Nia’s, meanwhile, climbs the rock.

[0:03:08 Speaker 1] I sense we’re going to have some of your classical illusions here. Okay, let’s Let’s hear it.

[0:03:14 Speaker 2] Anita’s, meanwhile, climbs the rock dry and deserted with the imprint of tire treads, freakish and jarring. Above the beachhead, the rock overlooking the sea from the bluffs floats out to the open Mediterranean only occasionally in hallucinations. The irony. The island is aching. Unece, meanwhile, climbs the rock. Below are the yellow pieces of the life raft. The olive trees are wallowing. They have seen this hero to many times before on our boreal nights of back channels and silent starlet takings. UNECE, meanwhile, climbs the rock hot and sandy in this screech of the desert, crisp and drawing above the state highway. The rock overlooking the river from the bluffs floats downstream to the gulf, only occasionally in hallucinations. The irony. The land is open. UNECE, meanwhile, climbs the rock below our border patrol in the outline of handcuffs. The shrubs below are wallowing. They have seen this hero to many times before on astral nights of we pings and the howling ghosts of the river. UNECE, meanwhile, climbs the rock and seeks widely every view upon the sea.

[0:04:22 Speaker 1] Wow, Zachary, what is your poem about?

[0:04:25 Speaker 2] My poem is based around these two lines from Virgil’s and needed. A niece, meanwhile, climbs the rock and seeks widely every view upon the sea, Which is this really, uh, really emotional moment in the Indian where UNECE has been separated from his followers by a storm and he’s looking for them, but he can’t find them and he thinks they’ve drowned or died. And I picked this passage in particular because the news is really, like the most famous immigrant of all time, probably and the most famous political asylum seeker of all time going from Troy to Rome. Uh, so I think it really spoke to the present moment.

[0:05:02 Speaker 1] That’s fantastic. And it reminds us how central these issues have been to human history. Ruth,

[0:05:09 Speaker 0] why do we

[0:05:10 Speaker 1] deport so many people from the United States? We don’t. We think of ourselves as a country of immigrants, but yet you know better than anyone that we have a terrible history of of deporting all kinds of people from our society. Why do we do that?

[0:05:23 Speaker 0] Oh, first let me recover a minute from from that beautiful poem, because that was just amazing. Um, I wish I had an answer. I mean, I can I can speculate. Um, I think that, um, when we do this, um, it is, um It is a rejection of our most profound values. It’s not like you’re absolutely right. We’ve done it. We’ve done it forever. You know, we’ve you know, I I have been thinking of this current deportation of, um of Africans as the 2020 version of, um of the ST Louis. You know, when we sent Jewish Children back to the Nazis and and I don’t I think it’s You know, I I guess the simple answer would be it’s about, you know, it’s probably about fear, um, and and about misguided values. Um, When? When? Several several weeks ago, when I was first China. Get publicity about what was happening to Cameroonians. I received a telephone call from a Breitbart reporter and I decided to talk to him, and I was trying to explain to him about the human rights issues involved. And he he kept saying to me that this was an economic issue and that if we saved these lives, we would be hurting our economy. Aside from the I think that the inaccuracy of that, what it said to me and it just startled me was the, you know, the obvious, his viewpoint, which was the primacy of putting money over over life. And and so I can’t say I understand why we do it. Um, I think we are right now in a very nativist, um, period in our history as America. I think it’s obvious Trump has has plugged into that amplified it. Um, there’s a lot of misinformation about, um, about refugees in this country. Um, and I think people, um, amplify and and and repeat the disinformation, and that’s part of it. Um, you know, one of the one of the things I discovered when I started talking about this to people is that they assume because we are in the United States, they assume that if someone is in prison here it’s because he’s committed a crime. In fact, what we’ve been doing more and more and more under Trump is taking people who come to our border to legally present for asylum because they’ve been persecuted. They surrender to ice and say, I am seeking asylum because I’ve been persecuted and we put them in prison. Um, my client, my, my my most recent Cameroonian client has now been in prison for 19 months and people say, What’s Yeah, what’s his crime? What’s his crime? His crime, His crime was that he doesn’t want to die. That was his crime. That’s his crime. So yeah, so I It’s a great philosophical question, and I think it’s beyond my my expertise. I I wish I could tell you

[0:08:50 Speaker 1] Well, you’ve been on ground zero really watching how our policy has changed over the last few years

[0:08:58 Speaker 0] and, uh,

[0:08:59 Speaker 1] and and just just describe for us how it’s changed.

[0:09:03 Speaker 0] It’s just gotten it’s gotten, uh, it’s gotten so much worse, I think, uh, one of my favorite, um, writers, editorial writers in the I think she’s in the post. Jennifer Rubin, Um, says, encapsulated it and said, um, our policy is cruelty um, our our national policy is cruelty, and it’s the and because the cruelty will deter people, um, from coming because we don’t want them because and quite frankly, we are particularly, um, horrifying to, um to people from African countries. Um And, uh, so I I think the every single policy in the in the last year that I’ve been watching has gotten worse and worse and worse in terms of keeping people imprisoned not, um, the treatment they receive in the prisons. And, um and certainly, um uh, attorney general Sessions and Attorney General Bar, uh, absolutely remade the immigration courts. These are these are not part of these are not Article three courts, like, uh, the Supreme Court and and and and federal courts. These are administrative courts that are are packed now with handpicked, um, people who are were picked for their, um, for their willingness to deny asylum. And, um uh, and I’ll give you an example. I I have been trying for the last month or so, uh, to get my client a stay of his deportation order. And I repeatedly filed my motion for stay with the Board of Immigration Appeals. They denied it twice. Um, recently, they granted it a few days ago on the exact same facts that I have been submitting for the last month. So I think what happened was I just lucked out and got a different judge. Um, and and and it was, uh, you know, we like to think that our cases will be heard on the merits and that regardless of who the judges, if we have good facts and we have good law that we’re going to win, that is not the case anymore. Uh, not with bar, not with Miller. Not with, um, previously with sessions. Not with President Trump. Um, and these people are going to be, um, in these administrative courts for, you know, long after trump leaves. So that’s a huge part of it. Um, my friends who have been doing this longer than I have tell me that, um, that President Obama was not great on on deportations either. But everybody does also seem to agree. The people who’ve been watching it longer than I’ve been involved that that there’s been a giant downhill slide and and, you know, we’ve seen that, um, President Trump hasn’t made any secret of his hostility towards immigration. Um uh, And I think recently he cut down the number of aside lease asylum grants that could be issued to something like 15,000, which is the lowest it’s been. I mean, that’s just nothing. That’s just nothing. So the asylum judges are under a lot of pressure to not grant, because there’s that that that limit that he’s in past,

[0:12:40 Speaker 2] how is the election affected? This, like in the days leading up to the election and the further politicization of this issue and now the days leading leading after the election. How has this issue changed? How has it been? Have people been galvanized around this

[0:12:54 Speaker 0] issue? It’s a great question. Um, it’s it’s it’s strange, it’s it’s a couple of things have happened. Um, I put a lot of us predicted that in the the days up to the election, um, that there would be this scorched earth policy that the, um that the, uh, the administration would see, um, would see President President elect Biden coming in and that they would do everything they could to deport as many people as they could. And that is exactly what’s happening. Um, we’ve had we had a death plane go out on October 13th. And this is the second one today. People are, They’re they’re gathered there. They’ve all been herded into what’s called the ice box, and they are ready to get on the plane to go back. Um, you know, to their doom. And, uh and and and a lot of us believe a lot of us predicted it and thought that this is, you know, this is gonna be a last push to get rid of as many asylum seekers as possible. Um, but on the other hand, as you suggest, there’s been so much, um, you know, galvan ization around this, and just in the last few days, I’ve been working with, I don’t know, maybe 100 and 50 people. Um, start who? You know, we started this campaign, um, with a lot of Congress people to try to at least intervene with ice on behalf of our clients, but also to stop the plane. We’re not going to stop the plane because, uh, ice doesn’t have to listen to to a couple of to these congress people. Um but we we may have negotiated a few people off the plane. There are people who had there are there are exiles who had whose lawyers had filed civil rights complaints against ice because of their treatment in ice custody. Um, we had information that ice was actually, um, breaking people’s fingers to force them to sign deportation documents. In my case, I filed a civil rights complaint because, um, uh, my client was put in solitary confinement for, I think, a total of 13 days. Um, because he stopped eating in protest when, um, ice was refusing. It’s to follow its own policies and granting him, um, what was what’s called parole, which is released to a sponsor so that the the the cruelties is phenomenal and the and so when what? What Congress? What a few members of Congress have been trying to do is to at least persuade ice not to, um, to send the witnesses to these civil rights complaints to their death. So I think a few more people may be saved because they have lawyers who filed civil rights complaints. The vast majority of asylum seekers do not have lawyers. They’re not entitled to lawyers. Um, when they do get lawyers, they’re often um, they’re they’re frequently victimized by unscrupulous lawyers who take their money and do nothing that actually happened in in my case. Um, my client has a final deportation order because his lawyer stole the retainer, um, that his family paid and never filed the motion that could have saved his life. And so that’s why he has a fire. Had a final deportation order that I got. I was lucky enough to get a stay off, but it’s the whole, uh, this is probably too much information, but the whole the whole thing is just is just catastrophically terrible. Um, but I You know what? What? I’m what I’m hoping to continue on with, um, with the last question. What I’m really hoping is that we have now reached enough Congress members that we can keep pushing to get to President elect Biden to try to get him to grant temporary protected status. Two people, at least from countries where, you know, places like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Our have characterized as as, if not genocide, you know, looks a lot like genocide. Um, and Cameroon is one of those places, so there’s there’s no reason we should not be granting temporary protected status to people who we know will die on account of, um, either their political beliefs or their membership in a cultural group. Um, there’s there’s, you know, as a country, that’s what that’s what the the Statue of Liberty is, is screaming when she has her hand raised. That’s that’s the message. And so we’re hoping to use this energy. Um, we won’t be able to save the people who have already gone. We’ve gotten reports from Cameroon on the ground that the people who, um were sent back on October 13th have now all disappeared. Um, they’re either in prison or there in the bush or they are. They are. They are either fighting for their lives or or um or or imprisoned. And, um and and we you know, we won’t be. We can’t do anything about that, but we can look to the future, and we can try to prevent this from happening. Um, and and and

[0:18:42 Speaker 1] Ruth, what does temporary protected status mean?

[0:18:45 Speaker 0] Uh, temporary protected status? As I understand, it would just mean that when people come into this country with the the presumption would be instead of the presumption being that they are criminals, which is what the presumption seems to be. Now, instead of that, the presumption would be that they are We are going to, um, protect them and ensure that they have, um, due process, um, and and have a fair and a fair opportunity to, um to make their case for, uh, for asylum. And it would, um and I’m actually working with a number of immigration groups who were the ones who put me onto this idea. Um, but it’s, uh it’s a, um it really is the consensus of the probably oh, 200 or so, uh, immigration groups that, uh, that are working on this. That that’s what, um, that that would be the best route forward, especially for people who are are coming from countries where we know that returning them. Uh, it is so dangerous. Um, one thing I I wanted to mention is that President Trump himself has publicly recognized the danger. We’re putting these people in by sending them back because he cut off trade to Cameroon. He gave a speech to Congress on October 19th, 2019, where he said he was cutting off trade to Cameroon because of its ongoing human rights violations, including extrajudicial killings and torture. The president recognizes this. The State Department recognizes this Congress recognizes this, and we and yet we are today sending 68 people back to that country.

[0:20:40 Speaker 1] It reminds me, Ruth, of all the Jews who were denied entry to the United States, uh, in the 19 thirties and forties, I mean, it’s just it’s a replay of that history in so many ways.

[0:20:52 Speaker 0] Absolutely, Absolutely. I mean, my my father, um, was one of the last Children to get in into, um, England on the Kindertransport. And I’m named for my aunt who died in Auschwitz when she was 19. And I, um I I have such a profound connection to my Cameroonian client who, you know, is from a village with, you know, that probably didn’t have, you know, you know, it certainly wasn’t the middle class life I was. I I grew up in, but the connection I have with him is so visceral. Um, you know, just another point. Um, you know, my mother’s family escaped from Russia from the programs in Russia to Canada and something that’s interesting. That’s going on here. That your listeners may not know about is that, um there have been very high level discussions in Canada with members of parliament and, uh, and Tudo and and other people about having the having Canada provides sanctuary for, for, for, for our prisoners, for that for our detainees from Cameroon, because there’s a, um we do have an agreement with candidates called the Safe Third Country Agreement that says that if, um if if Canada or or the U. S provides a safe third country to, um an asylum, then he or she, then the other country won’t take them. It’s basically a, you know, a wall we’ve put up between ourselves and Canada, so we don’t get each other’s refugees as long as they’re safe. But there’s an exception in that agreement. And it says that Canada says that if if If if the if the person in the U. S. Is going to be subject to the death penalty, then they’ll take him. And there’s actually been I have been talking to people in Canada to see if they will save my client from the U. S. Um, because he will be subject to the death penalty. If he gets sent back to Cameroon, there’s a There’s an arrest warrant out on death penalty charges. It’s it’s completely spurious. It’s because he was, uh they think that he was involved in the wrong political party. Um, but but can’t I have talked to Canada about saving my client from the United States? Wow. Yeah.

[0:23:39 Speaker 1] How successful have you been in bringing attention to these issues? I know

[0:23:45 Speaker 0] you, uh,

[0:23:46 Speaker 1] you were on this American life. That’s where Zachary and I heard you. Are you getting attention for these issues more broadly?

[0:23:52 Speaker 0] Um, some. The problem is, I’ve I’ve talked to a few national, um, outlets like Ben Calhoun at this American life. Julia Ainslie, who is a national reporter at NBC, has reported on this. Julia tells me that she tried to get Rachel Maddow, who show she’s been on before to do a show on this. And, uh, and and and there are reporters out there who recognize that this really is life or death, and we can do something. And the problem is, um, right now that you know, as usual, Trump keeps President Trump keeps sucking all the oxygen out of the room. And there is so much attention being paid to, you know, to the issue of whether our our own democracy is going to survive. Um, you know, fair question, um, that, um that it’s not getting out. So So that’s the problem. Um, that’s the problem. But there are reporters who really care deeply about it. And, um and and I think you know, once again it’s people like you and people like, um, everybody who is reporting on this is is just providing. It’s serious. It is our only hope. It is our only hope. You are. Um, I always I always taught my students that my law students that just by the nature of the way law works in a courtroom, they were the voice for the voiceless. I mean, if you’re if you have a case in court, you are literally not permitted to speak unless it is response to in response to a question and you are under oath. So lawyers are always the voice for the voiceless. But but so too are journalists and and the and and And the way things change has been because journalists get the message out. So, um and without that journalism. Without that journalism, I never we never would have gotten Congress’s attention ever, Ever. It was because there was noise being made about it that that members of Congress started paying attention. So it’s my my my continuing, you know, prayer for democracy is that my and and and hope for it, uh, is that it’s the fourth estate. It’s you guys. It’s It’s it’s it’s it’s seriously the, you know, colloquially speaking, God’s work, it really, really is.

[0:26:39 Speaker 1] Well, that’s and that’s the role that those of us who are scholars and, um, writers and journalists. That’s certainly a role we have to take very seriously. It’s a solemn duty, and it always has been in our in our history. We we learn about our democracy and were able to push our democracy to overcome these limitations. It’s many limitations because of the spread of knowledge and spread of information, not disinformation, but real information. And we should draw that distinction. Of course. What what Ruth, can our listeners do? What can especially young people who care about these issues, um, who are not necessarily in a position to produce a show like Rachel Maddow

[0:27:18 Speaker 0] show

[0:27:20 Speaker 1] what What can they do? How can they get involved?

[0:27:22 Speaker 0] I think the best thing they can do is to is two things. First, they need to learn about this, Um, this issue, um, and because as we know, knowledge really is power. Um, and knowledge is what you need to amplify the message. So I would suggest, um ah, researching this if they if if if if they just if they just google Cameroon and they and they look at authors, uh, like Julia, Ainsley and the Guardian has been doing a lot of journalism on this, and they listen to your show and they get information. And then the next thing to do is to contact, uh, their own, uh, their own political representatives and because that political people listen to their constituents, and that’s their job. Um, and the way I started getting people in Congress to listen is that, um, my client has family who are American citizens who live in Maryland. And so, um, I didn’t get much traction when I was originally when I was contacting congressman there, but once they did, they got traction. So if you, um if you are a constituent, um and you have access to other constituents who can amplify the message and make phone calls and write emails and write letters to the editor and and get the message out any way they can about America’s participation in what, uh, in in these extrajudicial killings and torture. Then I I think I think that is hugely powerful. I think 11 voice alone, uh, you know, is maybe you can’t hear it, but but collective voices are are huge. So, you know, I sometimes feel very alone doing this work, but But the fact is, I’m I’m not. There are were there are a lot of other voices, and I may not hear them, but But if the right audience hears them, then you know, then then there we can make a difference. So I would urge your listeners, um, who I think are among the most, uh, powerful and literate and impassioned people. I I miss teaching so much. Um, I would urge them to, uh, to use their enormous energy and goodwill to, uh, to work together. Any of them are free to contact me. Um, if they google my name, um, they will come up with my email, which I can I can I can give it to you But it’s our mh at c w s l dot e d u Um, I still have my school email. Um, and, uh, and I’m happy to work with your, uh, with your listeners and with your students and to help harness their energy. Um, for this work.

[0:30:50 Speaker 1] Wow. Well, thank you for all you do. Your passion and your insights remind us of some of the best aspirations and values that our democracy claims to live to. That we all have to shine a bright light on and try to renew in any way that we can. Uh, and we can all be hopeful that with new political leadership, at least some new political leadership, a new president and others in 2021 that there might be some some larger progress we can make. Zachary, you’ve been listening to all this, and I know you’re passionate about these issues. Uh, do you think, uh, this is the kind of call to action that will resonate with young listeners? And how can we make it something that that more people will learn about and be a part of What do you think, Zachary?

[0:31:36 Speaker 2] I think it all comes. It all comes down to information. I think that the way that people get away with such with such horrible things is by by suppressing information surrounding it and if we can get the word out, I have no doubt that young people and older people alike will express disgust with this. But we have to make sure that we’re diligent because because undemocratic things always happen in the shadows.

[0:32:01 Speaker 1] I think that’s well said, and one of the whole purposes of podcast is to take these issues out of the shadows, to provide a real information from people on the ground, like Ruth, who are putting their blood and sweat into these issues and to allow us all to be informed. And and, Ruth, I just want to thank you again. Not only was the content of what you shared with us today so powerful we can hear and feel your passion and democracy requires truth and passion from citizens like yourself, Uh, and and Zachary. I want to thank you for your poem which captured this and brought us back to the world of the India and connected are dilemmas today to these, shall we say, a centuries old dilemmas. And most of all, I want to thank our listeners for joining us for this episode of This Is

[0:32:46 Speaker 0] Democracy. This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke, and you can find his music at Harrison Lemke

[0:33:07 Speaker 2] dot com. Subscribe and stay tuned for a new episode every Thursday featuring new perspectives on democracy.

[0:33:15 Speaker 0] Yeah, mhm