This is Democracy – Episode 110: The Atomic Bombings of Japan and Current Legacies

[0:00:05 Speaker 2] This Is Democracy, a podcast that explores the

[0:00:08 Speaker 1] interracial inter generational

[0:00:10 Speaker 2] and intersectional unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy. Welcome to

[0:00:20 Speaker 4] our new episode of This Is Democracy. This week is a very, very special episode. I know I frequently say that really is a special episode this week because we are marking an important anniversary that has just passed. This entire year has been the 75th anniversary of the end of World War Two on. We just recently passed the anniversary of the 1st 2 and thankfully, only two uses of atomic weapons in warfare. The two detonations of atomic bombs by the United States in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan in August of 1945. And we have with us three scholars who have been part of a larger project documenting, writing, analyzing and in particular, most recently collecting photographs off what occurred during these terrible bombings in August in 1945 helping us 75 years later to remember to process, to learn and hopefully to improve ourselves based on the horrible experience that these photographs depict. We’re going to talk to these three scholars today. We have with us, Don Carlton eyes the first of the three. He’s a historian and founding director of the Briscoe Center for American History of the University of Texas at Austin. He’s the author of at least a dozen books. That was the number I counted, but I can’t count much higher than that. Historic at least at least a dozen books, including books on Walter Cronkite on the Red Scare on Most Recently, in addition to this book on the atomic bombings, he’s completed a dual biography of William P. Hobby and Ovett, a Culp hobby, two of the most important figures in early 20th century Texas history. And maybe we’ll have him on in the future to talk about that book as well. We also have Michael staff, who is a frequent visitor on our podcast. One of my favorite people. One of the truly great historians writing today, are juice on Micro Professor a Pistol and you t Reach In University, associate professor of the University of Texas at Austin. He’s the author of What is still I think, one of the best books on oil and American foreign policy, and also a very prominent textbook writer, as well as one of the foremost people writing on the history of the bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Welcome, Michael. Nice to have you back on. Thank you, Jeremy. And then we have, in addition, to Michael and Don, we have Ben Wright, uh, who is a curator and researcher at the Briscoe Center, one of the most energetic users of archives. I was reminded me of new archival collections I should be using that I often try toe Try to keep up with Ben on Hamza. He’s a PhD student in history here at the University of Texas, already an accomplished journalist, and served as press secretary, the Texas state capital. He has a master’s degree from King’s college, and he’s originally Israel here in his accent from Leister, England. Welcome. Ben nice to have you on as well.

[0:03:25 Speaker 5] Thanks for having me, Jeremy.

[0:03:27 Speaker 4] So before we turn to Don Ben and Michael, we have, of course, Zachary’s poem, and he’s written, I think, a very moving poem for us today. What is the title of your poem, Zachary?

[0:03:39 Speaker 6] Awaiting the Apocalypse. Let’s hear it. August 1945 and boy rides a bicycle around in circles on a driveway August 6 1945 and a plain words peacefully, though it is clearly an engine of war. The radio something inaudible back through the clouds August 6 1945 after eight o’clock, and the boy is still spinning around and around, entranced, staring at the ground and pain. August 6 1945 10 minutes after eight o’clock at another plane flies high in circles over the city of 350,000 and still there is peace and the guns are cold. August 6 1945 14 minutes after eight o’clock, It’s still the boys rolling, turning, spinning closer and closer, angled like he’s awaiting ground. August 6 1945 15 minutes after eight o’clock on the plane dropped something. The plane drops something, and it turns back to a week. The apocalypse. August 6 1945 15 minutes and seconds After eight o’clock on, the boy hits the ground. August 6 1945 15 minutes and seconds after eight o’clock, and the little boy, It’s the ground Death and the destruction of time. The clock stopped death, death in the destruction of time, his face hit the pavement. Yeah, that in the destruction of time, all are blinded for seconds. Yeah, that destruction of time blood pours onto the asphalt. Death, death and the destruction of time Blood skin own on your own, Ash. It is all there. Yeah, death and the destruction of time.

[0:05:27 Speaker 4] Zachary that there is indeed very moving. What is your poem about?

[0:05:33 Speaker 6] Well, of course, my poems about the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6th, 1945. But it’s really about the immense scale of this tragedy that we really don’t understand. That’s very hard to grasp if someone who never experienced it

[0:05:49 Speaker 4] well that gives us a great opening to discuss this new book and the anniversary of Hiroshima Nagasaki Bombings. The title of the book, of course, is flash of light, wall of fire Japanese photographs documenting the atomic bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki. And for those of you who haven’t seen the book yet, there’s a fantastic article about it that we will link to in the podcast from The New York Times to include some of the photos Don. How did you and this of Dust Group come to work on this project?

[0:06:20 Speaker 3] Well, Jeremy, the Briscoe Center has been specialising for several years now and creating a huge archive of leading American photojournalists. So, um, in the mall, I guess it was about 2015 or so through the anti nuclear Photographers movement. They had had this project where they gathered something like 820 year 830 photographs scattered in different locations, many of them never published, and they created a digital archive. They scanned all the photographs on, and they created this archive of these photographs as evidence to show people what the you know, the horrific after facts of the bombing of Hiroshima. And exactly, um, they published those photographs in two books and two volumes, one on Nagasaki and one here with Hiroshima in Japan. It did not have circulation outside of Japan, however, and it got tremendous attention in Japan. So they got the idea that they would really wanted the American people that have a chance to see these photographs because, as I said, most of them have never been published for many. And, you know, there’s only been a few photographs, really, that have made it to these shores of the after effects of the of the bombings. So they they sought out Hank Nagashima their associate who makes fluent English and asked him if he and he has family here in the United States. And they asked him if he would come to United States and seek a publisher. And so, out of the clear blue sky, I got a email from Hank asking if we had any interest in doing this. And so, you know, my immediate reaction was yes, we do have an interest because I would like to add this digital photography collection of these 800 or so images to our photo archive, which is a very important archive, and this would be a great addition, and then we could also publish a book. However, there were a number of questions that I have that had to be resolved before I could actually agree to do this. Uh, and the number one question in my mind is that, uh, you know, I told Hank that he surely was aware that this whole subject was very sensitive in the United States in a different kind of way than the way it was in Japan on, and I we I recall the controversy that occurred over the Smithsonian, uh, museums, uh, exhibit of the Enola,

[0:09:14 Speaker 0] which

[0:09:14 Speaker 3] know the gay in 1995 and all of that problem. And so I said, You know, I’m not try about posting your photographs, but I need to know if there is the I need to know more about the organization of the anti nuclear talkers, and I want to make sure that this isn’t some sort of extreme nationalist organization in Japan you know, in some way or that there’s some sort of effort that you know, some kind of agreement that would have to reeds where we would be assigning guilt or guilt or really reciting World War Two on. The whole decision to drop the bomb on Japan I wasn’t interested in are getting into that because there are an entire libraries full of books dealing with that all of those issues and my interest in this was really what I felt was probably going to be the same issue interest that they had, and that is that we have. We’re no longer enemies Japan in the United States, but we have a common enemy,

[0:10:26 Speaker 4] and that’s

[0:10:26 Speaker 3] nuclear war. Uh, and that’s how why we would would be one of the reasons why we would publish this book not to refight World War two or are, uh, really re argue Harry Truman’s decision to drop the bomb, but instead to really quite whole new generations of the horrors of nuclear war. Well, it turned out that’s exactly what their purpose wasa swell. And once we got that understood, then we started moving forward

[0:11:02 Speaker 5] with

[0:11:03 Speaker 3] the project, and we acquired the digital photographs there now in the center, and we immediately begin the work trying to do the book and a major exhibit. I brought Ben Ben right into the project and Allison Beck on our staff, whose director of special projects and the two of them joined with May. And the three of us were team working on this whole thing to get this book published. So that’s how this all came together. It was really a mutual interest and documenting this history on, and also to maybe make a statement and to teach people about what happens when you dropped atomic bombs on citizens and individuals. So that’s really the point of this book. It’s not to refight World War Two. Are any of that It it’s to look to the future containing the truth is to use this past this history as a guide to the future and is a warning. Really? So that’s how this all got started. And thankfully, we got all this done. Ben and Alison and I made an extradition to Japan. I felt that it was extremely important that none of us have been to Japan. And I felt like we were going to do a book and an exhibit on this, and we were actually gonna have a conference as well when the book came out. But of course, current conditions of sorts. But that didn’t happen. Eso we went to Japan do not become experts on Japan. I mean, a two week trip. It’s fans like to do that, but I felt like we at least need to go there and spend time and meet with a number of people. See the memorial museums in both cities on just look at the topography and try to understand the same on go to the Shrine. So that’s what we did, and I felt like we learned a lot doing, but we’re certainly not experts on Iran,

[0:13:04 Speaker 4] but on Michael Force, you are an expert on these topics. You probably spent more time thinking about the historical effects of the atomic bomb. Is that anyone else? What do these images add to our understanding, Michael?

[0:13:21 Speaker 0] Oh, thanks, Jeremy. Uh, it was a wonderful opportunity for me to become involved with this project. When when Don approached me and asked me to write up a long piece for the book. And it really squared very nicely with what I think are the directions that current scholarship is taking, but in a form that could reach a very broad audience. So first of the scholar will keep part Scholarship on the bomb has been dominated, really, by two great wide questions. Why did the United States to drop the bomb on and why did Japan’s surrender? We have a pretty good answer. I think that the 1st 1 principally to win the war, but also of what our colleague Marty Sherwin calls for French benefits, not least cowing Russians, making it very clear that the United States now had an atomic weapon rather ostentatiously slung on its hip, uh, with which to negotiate. Ah ah, a a longer term peace eso. So in a sense of the wide United States dropped. The bomb is answered in a pretty straightforward away with multiple ends in sight. The second question why did Japan surrender? Remains a subject of heated debate among among historians, some arguing that, of course, the the atomic bombs ended the war many more suggesting a much more complex picture that involved not least Russian declaration of war between the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which exploded of Japanese myths about the possibility of of a negotiated peace using the Russians with whom they were not yet it war. Um, this is I don’t think that will ever, um, a precise answer that will satisfy everyone. Of course, there are even more complicated explanations for for that surrender. Um, but But the point being there, this book now is very much part of new directions. That scholarship is taking, that historians have become interested in those white questions, as I said, have dominated this scholarship, and they also dominate the perspective. This is the history of the atomic bombs from 25,000 feet up. This is the history of the mushroom cloud. But there is another history which is little told, and that is the history of the pika Don the flash boom as the Japanese to experience those bombs call it s So now what? We’re getting in a series of ah, very good books. A Chad deals resurrecting Nagasaki, which looks at what happens to Nagasaki after the bomb. And Susan Sanford’s a book about about the survivors and and what they do in the wake of the bomb. We’re looking, in other words, at a different kind of question. And this question is, what bomb mean? Um ah, Summer interested like me in what they meant to both the users and those against whom the bombs were used. But but there’s, ah strong line of scholarship with deal and and southward that now begins to look at what it means for the Japanese. But for those who were who were a attacked by this weapon, what experiences did they have? It’s a story that’s little told in the United States. That was the beginning of that story back in the late 19 forties with John Hursey. Ah, look, I’m sure you know Terashima, which focused on Hiro Shima and five survivors. Um, now that that that, uh, portrait is expanding were returning back to what it meant in human terms, and particularly for those on the ground. With this new line of scholarship, this book now takes it a step further, looking at images, very powerful images that are, I should add, all taken by Japanese photographers. Onside Assam mentioned. And I think that’s critically important. Very. In some cases, these were photographers who were amateurs. Uh, in other cases, professionals. Some of those photographers were there on state when the bombs were dropped. Some came within 24 hours, others within a year, two years. And so we have this extraordinary record now, over time of what the bomb meant inhuman and structural in structural ways. Uh, what exactly the bomb meant to the built environment and very much of the human environment And this book? I hope we’ll have a broader reach than than a lot of our scholarly writing. I know Jeremy, your you’re historian believes that we need to reach a much broader audience than we typically reach with scholarly books. And I think this is a book that can do very, very palpable,

[0:18:54 Speaker 4] and I think it has already with the coverage in the New York times and elsewhere. And as you said, Michael. So while the the portrait’s and the images quite literally, that one gets of what it was like to be on the ground when this happened, not to see it from the perspective of 30,000 feet but from the perspective of those at ground zero. In a sense, Ben, as a historian, how do you think about these issues? You’re not a historian of the atomic bomb, per se your more historian of the American experience. How do you How do you see these issues

[0:19:28 Speaker 5] if we’re trying to ascertain what the bomb means? Thes photographed ceased to be ornamental. They become fundamental and how Aziz primary sources and how we construct their meaning. Because, to quote days of Remember one of the I believe it’s 1978 a book that came out of here, she, in one of the first sort of modern photo books on it, begins where the photo in the book that that’s just that’s repeated in flash of light of a child looking into the camera on days of Remember, they say, We want you to be able to see what this child show on this day. And so when we talk about constructing the meaning of the atomic on the photographs give us an ability to see just to see something of what what the experience of those bombs was like. And it’s a visceral, visual Onslow that transcends many of the traditional historia graphical questions that we thanks, Andi, this leads to a riel compelling. What if because what if these images hadn’t had been part of the historical memory had been part of the American experience over the last 70? Yes, I have lost 75 years. Would we think differently? What are his story? A. Graphical questions be different if these primary sources had be more readily available on with our public policy. Questions be different if these if they sort of vulture a visual experience off the off the bombings rather than sort of abstract diplomatic pontificating that we’ve seen a lot off a sense since the end of the 2nd 1 Would this change our perspective? Would it make his ask different questions?

[0:21:19 Speaker 4] That’s a great question, especially as someone myself who likes to study the abstract pontificating of diplomats. It’s a very important question, Michael, How how did the experience, such as it was understood of the atomic bombings. How did it affect the thinking of Americans? Europeans, Soviet actors? Many of the key actors that you and I in particular, spent a lot of time studying from the Cold War. What? What legacies were there for? The understanding of its time?

[0:21:48 Speaker 0] Well, at the time it was heralded Aziz the end to the war, Uh, that that this weapon, I’ll save many American lives. And some argued, including from a Japanese lives as well. Uh, there were those who pushed back against that interpretation and very early on suggested that neither bump was necessary, that a negotiated peace could have been brokered And if the real target was the Soviet Union, that the thread that is picked up by later historians. But at the time, if you look at the, uh, for example, of public opinion polls in September of 1945 they are overwhelmingly in favor of the use of the weapon. Well, that’s somewhere between 85 90%. Interestingly, there is much more skepticism about the use of gas of poison gas, But the atomic bomb this is seen as a kind of heroic weapon. Um, over time, of course, as it became clear, clear that there were longer term effects of these weapons, that this was not simply a bigger bang for the buck. But there were serious problems with radiation and, uh, and disfigured, uh, that there were some in the United States and felt well, Derek say it hangs and beautiful. A group of young women from Fukushima became known as the virtually. My maidens were brought to the United States for cosmetic surgery, Uh, in an act that many Americans viewed as Aziz generous on. And in some ways I am apology almost. I wouldn’t go so far as to say actual apology. No, but But clearly there was some some sense of remorse. Ah, And ever since, the bomb has been weaponized beyond the battlefield. Um weaponized in propaganda war said so many of these photographs, for example, the photographs taken by us Katayama Hot of Nagasaki. But he entered Nagasaki one day after the bombing of the city and took a series of photographs from the Japanese News and Information Service, which was really an arm of the military, a propaganda arm of the military and those photos were designed Thio Thio uh, build courage among the Japanese people for the gets the go the final battle. Ah, and it was hoped by the by the military that these photos would show what the barbarians, the Americans and the analyzed more generally were and therefore they need to fight to the bitter end. In the end, by the way a Yamaha toe hit those photographs they never got to to the military. But But it the malleability of this kind of imagery, it is clearly seeing in the way in which those same photographs which were initially, uh, the idea being used it for propaganda to stiffen the will of the Japanese people were later used to it create a certain kind of sympathy for the Japanese people. In other words, imagery is malleable and therefore it’s really important. And this is one of the things this book does that think to place images in their historical context so that we understand who took them. Why that he took them where they took after all photograph is is simply an image. It doesn’t come with a catchy You have to fill in that blank on. I think this this book. At least we tried to make this a book that could do that that set these photographs within their proper historical context.

[0:25:52 Speaker 6] So don it. How come it took us so long for Americans to finally come to terms with the damage of the bombing did in the death that it caused? Why did it take 75 years for such a seminal book like this to be published in the United States?

[0:26:09 Speaker 3] I think that’s still unopened. Question. I don’t, uh I’m not sure that we have come to terms with the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think it’s, Ah, issue that remains alive. There’s so much misunderstanding about the wide happened, how it happened, What happened afterward. You can see why Michael was The Michael Stop was a great choice to write the essay for this book because Michael has made some of those points. I think his comments. But you know, in my experience, is a historian myself in a teacher. Uh, I’ve always been aware of how interested Americans are have been, I should say, in the story of the making of the bomb. The scientists who were involved in physics the Manhattan Project Los Alamos and on and on and on and on And you know who flew the planes and so forth and so on. But once those bomb bay doors opened, the story kind of stops. And as far as Americans were concerned, um, you know, most Americans really looking away from the destruction or just don’t think about it. The focus in this country, in my opinion, has been almost entirely, you know, the story of the making of the bomb. That’s and so that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do this book when I had the opportunity to get these photographs and to get them published on Get Someone like Michael would put them in context. Uh, because I don’t think enough attention has been paid in this country, too. What happened after those bomb Bay doors open? So I don’t know. I’m still grappling with this whole issue of have have we come to terms. I don’t think that’s decays.

[0:28:14 Speaker 4] Ben. What? What do you think about this? Particularly as as I know you do in your own work, thinking about the long trajectory. What were some of the positive lessons that Americans took from 1945. And what were some of their the kuna, some of the holes that you’re hoping that these images in a return to this moment will help us to fill.

[0:28:37 Speaker 5] I think I would say that there really is a sort of a history of absence with these images, Um, that that is more impactful than where they do show up because they show up so sporadically over the over the following 75 years at on. American perceptions off off nuclear war, um, are are found elsewhere are founded in some of things. Michael spoke off the end of the war, coming swiftly and heroic rather than nastily and on and inconveniencing. We see a very different history in Japanese collective memory, where you have this sort of initial memory boom in the early 19 fifties, when American censorship leaves with the American military occupation and made quickly museums spring up photo books published and this is this is focus in Japanese collective memory, the end of World War Two, as in human suffering rather than in environmental destruction. You get the photographers view rather than the the the dot the view from the bomb bay doors, a done mentioned. But I think in general it’s It’s a very tough thing to create a cartography. Are the perception over a long period of time in this big Zachary to to some of the themes of your opponent that it’s very hard to grasp something that you’ve never experienced and on, thankfully, are very few people have globally speaking, and you think of the billions of people that have existed and currently exist. A few people experienced and you can warn That’s one of the issues today where part of the power of this comes in is that public memory off nuclear war is fading at a time when tensions between nuclear powers is on the rise. And I think these photographs give us vice a primary source information that understanding what happens when nuclear weapons are used by human beings against one of the and so we’re able to grasp something we haven’t experienced in the hope that we won’t have to experience animal to to grasp it,

[0:31:00 Speaker 4] that’s that’s very well, said it. It’s it’s similar to many other apocalyptic experiences, and in some ways we’re living through a pandemic. Now that is not dissimilar from what many lived through in the early 20th century. But we couldn’t imagine it again because we had been so far removed from it it in some ways it seems to me your book is about and the lesson you’re trying to teach is to remember what these experiences were. So we don’t forget the measures we need to take to prevent them from occurring again. Michael, do you Do you see a fruitful dialogue developing around these issues? I know you. You pay attention. A zai duenas Other historians do It is Don does as well, too. The residences of this history today. Who are you optimistic about? Us learning further lessons from this, or are you concerned? And how do you think about that?

[0:31:51 Speaker 0] I’m a historian, is, you know, jerk me. And if there’s one thing historians know it is that there’s nothing so bad that it can’t happen. Ah, and I like to believe Aziz Well, there’s nothing so good that it can’t happen. So So I’m of two minds. It is always like like Harry Truman. That about economists. Two minds, Uh, on the one hand, the term is a going back to the question was asked, Really the finest wrong there or so many Americans because in some ways violates our sense of national of who we are as a people. We, we believe that there’s there’s evidence of is that we are a generous and finding Uh oh, and she meeting people. But there is also evidence that we are susceptible to doing terrible things. Andi, I think this particular episode, one of those controversial in history, is one in which the was questionable. When you look at it from the ground up, when you look at it from the ground down as down, said the A bomb bay doors from the perspective of the mushroom cloud well were end amid terrible destruction. But war is the stock it John Hersi says, the first postulate of the serum of wars. Death on and certainly there’s that. But when you see the degree of suffering that people go through in war, uh, that that changes one’s perspective, and my hope is that we’ll be able to have a fruitful dialogue about the meaning of the atomic bomb for not just the United States and not just for Japan, but for the rest of the world as well. On a 1945 was a perhaps one of the most important years in world history because it was the year in which two great secrets now became public with approach town implications. The first secret, of course, was the Hong Kong. The actual discovery of the camps, which comes in the spring of 1945 of you even knew they existed. But now he was the hard evidence. And oh, by the way, here with the photographs as well Well, in one of the second Tom was the the detonation of the determined bomb on. So now, for the first time in human history, humanity had the capacity to destroy itself utterly at. And that’s what the bomb showed on with the Holocaust showed was that humanity has the depravity to do. And those two lessons from the war worrying me still a zai watch the world go up in relatively small flames here and there who know what this may lead. It’s a different

[0:35:18 Speaker 4] ball, right, hurt, and due to come back to your profound point about history moving in two directions at once, you can see elements of destruction in our world today. But 1945 reminds us that destruction can also be followed by extraordinary renewal as well. Maybe that’s one of the points don. I want to close with you. You you direct a public history center. What? What is the lesson you want citizens to take away from this project?

[0:35:49 Speaker 3] Well, it’s very simple, uh, simple answer, but maybe a complex thing to grasp, but And that is that really nuclear war? Israel. It’s not just something that’s in the movies on, and it really has happened on happened in 1945 75 years ago. And we hope that these photographs will vividly demonstrate what a relatively small nuclear weapon on. I think that’s important to emphasize that does not take away one bit. I certainly don’t mean for two from the horror of the bombing of Nagasaki Hiroshima, but we have gone on to weapons that are so far beyond what we drop down those two cities. And so I’d like for particularly young people to see these photographs. This horrible is they are and go. Oh, my God. You know, this is what happens when you get into a nuclear war uh, that’s it if we can. If we can educate just a small group of people about about that, I feel like we’ve done a good job.

[0:37:03 Speaker 4] I think that’s such an important lesson and such an important historical insight. Zachary, Is this a meaningful historical marker for your generation? Do young citizens like yourself who are concerned about political change looking toward our elections, looking toward a new future? Is this an important issue for you? I think

[0:37:24 Speaker 6] it is. And I think we’re in a very, very important in a very volatile moment in our collective memory of World War Two, because we’re at this point where the last people who really felt the destruction firsthand are dying. But so are those who were most committed to the heroism of the United States during World War Two on the issue. And then the real question of the 21st century in regards to have remember World War Two is going to be. Do we remember it as the movies depicted as this this heroic time? Or do we remember it as a very complex period where United States did many great things? But it also do many bad

[0:38:03 Speaker 4] Well, I think that mixed legacy is a legacy we all have to grapple with as we think about our own society today and how we move forward back to what Michael said. Thes thes complex issues involved, often contradictory phenomenon. And it’s so important for us to be conscious of those I want to thank. Thank you, gentlemen, Don Ben. Michael, for joining us for your important work on this project and also for your willingness to take a difficult, complex, controversial issue like this and really open discussion around it in such an effective on emotional way. Thank you for joining us today.

[0:38:40 Speaker 3] Thank you, Jeremy. Appreciate it for months.

[0:38:43 Speaker 4] And I want to thank Zachary for his poem, Of course. And I want to encourage all of our listeners to go out and read this important book. It is available in all bookstores. You can find it wherever you find good books. It is called Flash of Light, Wall of Fire Japanese photographs documenting the Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And we will link the New York Times article about the book, which includes some of the sample photos to this Thank you to our audience as always for joining us for this week of This is Democracy.

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