This is Democracy – Episode 9: Religion and Democracy: How Are We Making Our Democracy More Open and Inclusive for Different Faiths?

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Introduction with many voices: This is Democracy- a podcast that explores the interracial, intergenerational, and intersectional unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy.
Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of this is Democracy, today, we’re going to discuss one of the most important issues that confronts us every day. From the supreme court to hiring practices, to social relations, the relationship between religion and democracy. And in particular how people of deep faith can find a place for themselves, and in fact, enhance our democracy on a day to day basis. And we’re fortunate today that we have two good friends, leading figures, and most important, I think model citizens in many ways, with us to discuss these issues. Let me introduce them at the top of the show. We have Alison Tate. Hi Alison.
Alison Tate: Hello.
Jeremi Suri: Alison serves the Catholic Church in 25 counties in central Texas. So not quite as many counties as Beto has visited.
Alison Tate: Right? (laughs)
Jeremi Suri: Many counties. She’s the secretary, a director of formation and spirituality, and the director of youth, young adult, and campus ministry at the Diocese of Austin, and she’s coordinator for Region 10 of the Catholic Youth Ministry. So Alison is clearly a leader in the Catholic Church, and particularly a leader in working with young people in the Catholic Church. Then we have my friend Sean Hassan here with us. Sean was elected to great acclaim to the Austin Community College board of trustees in 2016, and this is really one of the most important positions in Austin, because Austin Community College is a gateway to opportunity for many so many young Americans, so many young Austenite’s who don’t have an opportunity. Sean has been doing fantastic work there, in particular, creating an opportunity for childcare, right Sean, for students who didn’t have access before?
Sean Hassan: Right, parents who are currently ACC students who have children of their own, and who, for whom childcare is critical to be able to take a test or get tutoring or study for an exam, so.
Jeremi Suri: Absolutely, gives them an opportunity to study, and their children an opportunity to get the care they need, and this was a big campaign issue for Sean. So here we have a politician who’s actually followed through on a promise. Sean is also the first Muslim American elected in Austin, Travis County, and probably in central Texas, and it’s actually very hard to find many other Muslim American’s elected to office in Texas. And there are very few in the United States itself, there are a handful in Congress. So we’re very lucky to have leaders in the Catholic and Muslim community here to talk with us about democracy, they’re also leaders in our democracy. Before we turn to them, we have Zachary’s poem, which will reflect on Zachary’s thoughts on religion. Right Zachary?
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Jeremi Suri: Okay, so let’s go.
Speaker 8: Okay. It’s titled “An American Jew”.
“I am an American Jew, the sort of Jew who’s prayers the hopeful word issued to himself in the school hallway, whose tallis is a stained polo, whose yamaka a Yankees ball cap. I am the sort of Jew whose synagogue is the corner where the records are in the rocking chair. The sort of Jew whose holy land is wherever he is not. I am the sort of Jew who (inaudible 0:03:32) is the wisdom of Winnie the Pooh and Camus. I am the sort of Jew whose Shabbat is watching television on the couch on Friday nights, whose rabbi is the voice from NPR on the radio. I am the sort of Jew who says his morning blessings reading The Washington Post. But I am the sort of Jew that remembers. I remember the slaves, the persecuted, and the forgotten. I remember tattered souls gassed, tortured, executed, and forgotten. I remember the desert wanderers, the conversers, the wave churned boat filling hopefuls. I remember the Jews. I remember the immigrant in my blood, the forever boats that landed in New York. I remember the poor families selling gaslights in Traverse City Chicago. I remember the old haberdashery along the Canadian border, far from Slavic shores. I remember the Jews. I remember visiting the synagogue on a Newport hill, my dvar torrah the day I became a man. I remember debating on the school bus the merits of Zionism. I remember questioning the Sunday school simplicity. I remember the Jews.”
Jeremi Suri: Zachary, I think that’s the first poem I’ve ever heard that connects Winnie the Pooh and Albert Camus. That’s fantastic. And Jewish faith. It’s striking in your poem the connections between being an American and being a Jew. How do you think about that relationship?
Speaker 8: Well at least personally, I find that they’re very intertwined. And a part of what I think is that it’s a shared memory as an American Jew of not only the Jewish experience, but also the Jewish American experience. And that’s really important to who I am as a Jew. And also, many of the same — these memories instill many of the same ideas that are in our country and our countries founding documents.
Jeremi Suri: Interesting. So you see a connection – a deep connection between the two. Sean if I could turn to you first. It’s a great accomplishment that Jews can be seen in many eyes at least, probably not all eyes, in many eyes, as patriotic Americans. It’s not that way for many Muslims in our society. How do you deal with that?
Sean Hassan: Well first, Zachary’s a hard act to follow, but I’ll do my best. Look, my sense is, under the current climate, I don’t think — I think we all know what’s kind of — what life is like for many individuals who are practicing Muslims or who are culturally Muslim, from Muslim countries. And so – I don’t need to belabor that point Jeremy. I think it’s an opportunity for us to educate others. I think even folks who are allies and friends and otherwise very supportive. By and large probably have a pretty limited understanding of the diversity within Islam, the history of Muslim contributions to civilization. And some of that is because, rightfully so perhaps, we’ve created, hopefully a very healthy separation between church and state. But I think perhaps a little bit of the slip — that the tepid in that is that we don’t educate about religion. And so it’s an opportunity, perhaps informally at this stage, or through formal mechanisms that we create, um, to educate others about Islam about Muslim history, about Muslim contemporary society. And in the long run, look at what our educational system can do to contribute to understanding about one another, including about one another’s religious backgrounds.
Jeremi Suri: That makes a lot of sense. Alison, do you agree? Catholics have obviously been seen as a part of our country for longer than Muslims have, even though Muslims have been here from the very beginning, but there’s also a long tradition of anti-Catholic prejudice, both in the violent kind of the KKK, but also in this sort of unspoken prejudices. So how do you deal with that?
Alison Tate: Well I think that it’s not as much as — well it’s not something that I think we currently deal with as much. But we as Catholics benefit from a great tradition of people who have come before, who have really kind of blazed that trail. Certainly we have Al Smith was one of the first people to have to figure out how to be a Catholic and a politician, and be a Catholic in the public sphere.
Jeremi Suri: Governor of New York in the early 20th century, ran for president in 1928.
Alison Tate: Right. And then Kennedy –
Jeremi Suri: Sure.
Alison Tate: He did it a little bit differently, but he sort of laid a — some groundwork there, for that. But certainly now, I think that Catholics have a pretty — other than you know we have concerns and definitely commitment to religious liberty. So that is usually how it’s stated, currently.
Jeremi Suri: But, the evangelical religious right, which has a whole variety and diversity of followers and there’s no simple or fair way to stereotype it. But there are elements of that evangelical religious right that seem to be very critical of the Catholic Church just as they’re critical of Muslim citizens. How do you react to that, how does the church deal with that? These are fellow Christians in a sense, right?
Alison Tate: Well we generally fall back on our kind of our rich tradition of teachings. We have many many social teachings that we fall back on. The nice thing about the social teachings of the Catholic church is that they work and appeal to human reason just as much as they appeal to faith, and so hopefully that’s something that as a society we can all kind of partake in a conversation together, on those topics.
Jeremi Suri: Great, great. Both of you are focusing on education, which makes a lot of sense. So let’s talk more specifically. What are some of the educational measures, some of the things we’re able to do today, in Sean’s sense too, to turn this difficult moment into a moment that helps citizens learn more, and feel their faith, respect the faith of others, but also respect our democracy. Sean, what are some of the things you’ve been doing?
Sean Hassan: Well I think, again, running for office and being in office gives you a certain platform.
Jeremi Suri: That’s just suicidal.
Sean Hassan: Yeah, well you’re close up to it, so you know it well, but you know it gives I think some of us a platform to educate others. I think again, given healthy societal norms we’ve got to figure out – those of us who are in office and running for office, what’s the right cadence there between speaking about our faith and making sure that others who don’t share our faith backgrounds still see what’s universal and what’s shared. For me, my work, my reason for running is very much you know shaped by life experience and views, but by faith, the commitment in Islam. I believe to societies most vulnerable, because we’re all created by a single creator, we share that connection, that divine light, and so there’s dignity in each human being, and we owe it to one another to — and it’s demanded of us in Islam that we look out for the most vulnerable. Our commitment to environmental stewardship, or however we understand our faith, I think our deeds and our actions for those of us in public life – certainly I imagine our shaped by it. So we’ve got that platform. We’ve got to the extent that any of us have a bully pulpit, I know we’ve got a little easel here, but um, we’ve got a platform to simply educate and if nothing else, hopefully to put a human face to this, this very sort of amorphous notion that some in society have of who a Muslim is and what Islam teaches. So hopefully our very being and our engagement with others humanizes Muslims for some. And I think then we talk about our faith and how our faith inspires us. I think as individuals that’s a platform that’s available to us. And as I alluded to earlier, I think increasingly, those of us who are thinking about this, who are committed to this, whether we’re in elected office or whether we’re in the roles that you occupy in academia or in other spaces in civil society, government, what have you, may want to look at what is the role of um teaching about religious backgrounds and about religion and about civilizations within our public school systems and within the other avenues that we have available. I think longer term, and in a more formal, structured way, that might prove to be promising.
Jeremi Suri: Yeah, that’s a great comment, and it connects to something that I wanted to bring up with Alison, because I know we’ve talked about this before. How do we do this appropriately? I think it’s clear, as Sean said, that people need to be more aware, and get beyond these stereotypes where people grow up watching TV and social media, and seeing Muslims as terrorists and Catholics as strange people in medieval costumes, or people who do things to children that they shouldn’t do, right? How do we get beyond that and humanize the individuals? But how do we do that without creating certain alternative religious assumptions in the classroom? And where this has come up of course is when we’ve recently had people run for office who insisted that all courtrooms should have the Ten Commandments posted and that um people should have to pledge religious faith in their classroom. Or that they should have to stand during the national anthem. That’s another kind of forced faith action. How can we educate and make people aware without creating new requirements and new stereotypes?
Alison Tate: Mm. Right. Well I think that we have a great — again in the US, we have a tradition where for 250 years, church leaders and otherwise have been grappling with this. How do we have that religious pluralism that is such an essential element of democracy?
Jeremi Suri: Right.
Alison Tate: So from — it’s very interesting that from the beginning of the US, shortly after the revolution, church leaders in the US we’re writing – basically wrote to – continuously we’re writing to the Vatican trying to convince them of this new system. That there is hope and that it’s actually something that — a system in which they think Catholicism will flourish. So that was various bishops and cardinals, so they were kind of the main church leaders, but even people like De Tocqueville, you know stated that in some of his writings.
Jeremi Suri: This is Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America, which I know every listener has read.
Alison Tate: Yes, he, he said –
Jeremi Suri: Certainly every student of mine has read it.
Alison Tate: Yeah I mean –
Sean Hassan: Parts one and two.
Jeremi Suri: Exactly, very good Sean.
Alison Tate: He said you know, I think that this atmosphere of democracy will actually allow the Catholic faith to flourish. And I think he used that word flourish
Jeremi Suri: Absolutely.
Alison Tate: Yeah, so we do have the ability, and it’s neat to me that American leadership has really driven that over the past 250 years. And so everything we see is just a new version of that. One of the things that I try to remember that I think is helpful in the education, because it’s somewhat of a method, is you know charity is practiced at all different levels. So love of neighbor is us sitting in this room and knowing each other, and we know that that breaks down barriers and changes perspectives. But that happens on a micro scale and that’s sort of easy to understand, but we also need to practice it on a macro scale, so within our families and kind of going up each level. And if we’re truly doing that — and that’s a process of self-awareness and self-evaluation and then the practice of it, it’s challenging. But I think that the practice of that is something anyone can partake in, Yeah.
Jeremi Suri: It makes a lot of sense. In the Jewish faith, this is called tikkun olam, right, to repair the world. You repair the world by starting in your own home. Right? Sean how do you think..?
Sean Hassan: Well I was going to add, I wanted to add a couple of things.
Jeremi Suri: Please, please.
Sean Hassan: Building on what Alison said, and your question. I think one, you know to avoid some of the traps I think you’re concerned about, and one possible platform is to study faith in sort of the civilizational approach, right? In the cultural approach. So that you’re not getting into theology, but you’re looking at sort of faith traditions and contributions of faiths over time, and you know just basic knowledge about faith today. I think you know, here, for example, in the US, we have this very sort of Arab notion about Muslims, but the data will tell us otherwise.
Jeremi Suri: The majority of the Muslims in the world are not Arabs.
Sean Hassan: Are not Arabs. So I think that might be a way…
Jeremi Suri: Great point.
Sean Hassan: A way to sort of – to approach this. I think, building on Alison’s point, I think there is a certain, perhaps because it goes back to de Tocqueville and to our founding days. I think we have an assumption of thriving pluralism. And I think pluralism, like democracy is something you have to keep working at. And I think we need to be a little more intentional about pluralism and about pluralistic society. I think when folks are feeling anxious for whatever reason. Those anxieties exist economic or cultural or gender – changing gender norms. You know that anxiety plays itself out in different ways, and the counter balance to that, if it’s rooted correctly, I think is this notion of pluralism, certainly growing up as a Muslim, I understood that pluralism is a central tenant of Islam. So there’s a compatibility there between Islam, and American democracy, but I think we have to be very intentional with dialogue and with all of the tools and all of the processes that make pluralism kind of alive and real and not just diversity and not just tolerance, but really engagement. And I just don’t know if we’re as intentional with pluralism as we should be.
Jeremi Suri: Well and what I’m hearing in your excellent comments is, you know pluralism takes a lot of work.
Sean Hassan: Yeah.
Jeremi Suri: It’s hard enough to learn about one faith. I mean we all — I actually have two faiths in my own background, but we all spend our entire lives studying the one or two faiths that we’ve grown up in. And what pluralism requires is actually studying the others, right? I mean all Americans should read the Koran, as they should read The Bible, as basic books of different faiths. So that brings us to a very difficult question, but I think a question that’s at the center of a lot of our society today, and hopefully can move us towards a more positive perspective. How do we deal with the misuse of religion? And I don’t simply mean by those who hate a particular faith, and say racist things about it, or intolerant things about it. But I mean those who come from within a faith, and use that faith to justify horrible behavior. And we have this within every faith, Judaism, Hinduism, Catholicism, and Islam. How do we deal with that within our groups? Because I think that’s also one of the problems we face today. Alison how do you think about that?
Alison Tate: Well, let’s see, that’s a big question. I mean it kind of goes back to education, again, staying involved. We are called to be involved. What’s interesting about some of the information that the catholic bishops, and the catholic church in the US is putting out now is saying that — it’s sort of reiterating the fact that when we see systems and practices that we don’t agree with, that in fact calls us even more greatly to be part of that, and get involved, and start to change things.
Jeremi Suri: And to speak out?
Alison Tate: To speak out, yes.
Jeremi Suri: So do you speak out about the abusive behavior of um catholic leaders?
Alison Tate: Yes, mhm, yes. Sins – personal sins, structural sins, that’s all very important to be explicit about, be transparent, that’s really important, state these things out loud, so that we can kind of process and move forward, and forgive and you know be with victims, but and also just kind of move forward for a better society and kind of community for everybody.
Jeremi Suri: Sean how about you?
Sean Hassan: Two thoughts come to mind Jeremy. I mean one is, I think those of us who come from faith background for who faith is sort of very much — whatever shape it takes, whatever form it takes, is very much a part of our life, I think we need to con — on a — with some consistency and regularity, speak about these broader values from a faith sort of background, anchored in faith. I think what sometimes gets missed in that bridge is, you know folks we’re speaking to hear about compassion, or care for the poor, environmental stewardship, um, or equality, or whatever those values are, but they see it as somehow anchored in secularism, or in sort of western notions of how the world should work, when in reality these are very much shared universal values, certainly as a Muslim I believe that they are very much anchored in their tradition of Islam and the life of the prophet. If you look at how sort of pluralism was managed in the prophet’s time, how conflict was resolved, how individuals from all backgrounds, women, slaves at the time, were sort of treated. So these values are very much a part of the history, in the case of Islam, the history of Islam, and to me, the sort of core beliefs that are rooted in the Koran. Um, but I think that sometimes, and like you Jeremy, and we spend our whole lives learning about our own faiths. I think folks who in adherence of religion, and religious world views aren’t particularly familiar with their own history or these values, so those of us who are, have a responsibility to speak to these values from that sort of faith anchoring, as opposed to what may be perceived as a secular kind of standpoint. I think that, to me would be huge, and I think secondly, perhaps more obviously, it’s looking at the conditions that make extreme behavior likely. Is it really sort of someone’s faith, or is faith being manipulated by others, and there’s fertile ground because people are living in poverty, and so they’re so desperate, there’s really nothing to lose unfortunately. And so they’re prey to those who do have bad intentions
Jeremi Suri: Sometimes religion becomes an easy answer just as it can be an easy excuse. I think both of your comments on values are so crucial, right, because it does strike me that many of contemporary debates about religion are debates about doctrine, not about values, right? And so one can have different doctrinal perspectives but still share the values at the core that bring us together. And I’d love for us to spend the last four minutes or so on just that. Um, what are the positive things happening out there? What are the things, especially our younger listeners, can see themselves doing, whether they’re religious or not? Whether they share one faith or another faith. What are the ways in which in this moment, when we seem to have lost our way, and we need to find our values again, how can religion help us now as it has in the past? To find our values and re instill that sense of what our democracy is about? I know you’ve both talked about this, so Alison do you want to start us?
Alison Tate: I think one thing is that we do have the opportunity to help people get beyond what the media hands us, in terms of how we should think. And like Sean mentioned, that paradigm of our western brains as us and them, it’s very dualistic, very good and evil. But we really all live in the grey all the time. And these values exist there in that interchange, and so I think that if we continue to just press the notion, and help people practice that we are not just — it’s not us and them, we’re not separated, but we’re one. You know the political cycle does nothing to help us get beyond that. We also see – in my work I also see a lot of young people who, they’re very very open to social teaching and to these common values, and so we need to make sure that we are encouraging them as much as we can in that area. Unfortunately we have not seen that translate to voting participation in the 20 year old population. But I think, so continue to see where those gaps are, and try to fill them with specific work
Jeremi Suri: Right, Right.
Alison Tate: And that’s where you get to the specifics.
Jeremi Suri: And it sounds like what you’re doing is you’re using your spaces related to the church, to create a separation from the constant barrage of negativity, right?
Alison Tate: Right.
Jeremi Suri: And getting people to stop and think and see the values, and then hopefully take those into the voting booth and take those into their everyday behavior.
Alison Tate: Right, to apply them, but the idea is — yeah, we think about things differently. And we need to practice that. Right now there’s a senate on young people happening within the Catholic Church, this month. And so that’s a worldwide gathering of bishops who are advising Pope Francis on young people. It’s the first time they’ve ever focused on young people as a topic.
Jeremi Suri: Wow, that’s great.
Alison Tate: And so, that is — it provides great hope and optimism for sure. But it also reminds us of that global perspective, because it’s not just young people in the US – or in the western world, its young people from all over the entire world.
Jeremi Suri: This is again how values transcend boundaries.
Alison Tate: Right, yes. And we did — so locally, we did some prep work for that senate, and sent some information ahead of it. We surveyed about 700 young people and asked them you know “what is important to you?” “What can the church do to help you live your life as a catholic?” or even non Catholic’s, we had some non-Catholic’s who took the survey. And one thing that came through very clearly was a commitment to the common good. And so I think that’s just important to remember that that is there. Less talk about polarizing political issues, more stress on the common good and shared values.
Jeremi Suri: That’s my sense of my student’s certainly. They care about the environment, they care about economic opportunity. They really are not concerned about who marries whom, right?
Alison Tate: Yes, and that’s what they want to hear from their leaders in all — I think in all spheres of their life.
Jeremi Suri: Well, Sean?
Sean Hassan: What came to mind as we were talking about both sort of the fact that this is global, and not just here, not just limited to our country. And again, as you’re talking about shared values is the work of the Aga Khan Development Network. And I’m not sure how familiar Jeremy, given your background up in Boston, at Harvard, how familiar you are with the work of the Aga Khan Development Network, but it is one of the largest NGO’s in the world. Founded by a Muslim leader, and informed by Muslim values.
Jeremi Suri: Absolutely.
Sean Hassan: And is doing work and cultural preservation and in addressing generational, intergenerational, multigenerational poverty, um, economic opportunity. Um, and you see, to the point that both of you all have made, is a sort of, the organizational or institutional embodiment of values, and so that is occurring at a global level. And I think to the point that you all have made is — you know if we work backwards from there in our own lives and our own communities, what does that sort of — what does the embodiment of values look like here? It could be you know the simple acts of service engagement of young people to say “Look this is-” for young Muslims to say “This is an extension of your faith”, going out there and helping the folks in Florida or in Houston after Harvey. Or whatever the case may be.
Alison Tate: Or it’s also, in your case its local politics are just as important as the glamour of national politics.
Jeremi Suri: Absolutely.
Alison Tate: You know that kind of engagements that’s doable.
Jeremi Suri: And day to day in a community college, where you’re creating opportunity for people. What could be more faith based than that?
Sean Hassan: Yeah, so it’s values and action. I think ultimately for both those who are in a faith tradition as well as those who are outside, it is how you hopefully put values in action, and it allows others to see the commonality, and to be educated about what a faith really is, when they can see what it means.
Jeremi Suri: I think there’s so much value in this conversation, which reminds us that faith is not really just about what we practice in our religious settings. It’s about the values we carry forward, it’s about the memories we bring. And it’s about the ways we try to improve our institutions, not to make our institutions – our democratic institutions more Jewish or Muslim or Catholic. It’s to infuse them with the values that at a core, connect our faiths, and connect the faith of our democracy. Which is the notion of a common good. And improving people through free action, not through authoritarianism. I think this connects back to Zachary’s poem because I know it’s always motivated me, and I think Zachary you were saying something similar. You know it’s the memory of my Jewish and Hindu ancestors, and knowing that they struggled and survived and made the world a little better. And every day that inspires me to feel first of all fortunate, that I get to do what I do, and to talk to people like all of you. But also the confidence that even though you can’t see the results every day, that doing this kind of difficult work actually does in the long term make a difference. We’re embodiments of that. Zachary what are your thoughts on that? You get to close us out today.
Speaker 8: I don’t know. I kind of feel that — well one of the things that really stood out to me in our conversation was talking about how people use religion as like a means of achieving their own ends. And I think that’s like really — I think it’s really clear in Judaism too, because when I look around the world, I see a lot of like places where Jews are using religion, like especially in the Middle East, to try and achieve their own ends. Not like as a whole, but certain Jews and certain groups. And I think it’s sort of a very irreligious idea because — and I think it’s oftentimes the people who claim to be the most religious who are actually…Like the leaders who claim to be the most religious, who least align themselves with those values. And those are the people who aren’t trying to be the best Jew or the best Muslim or the best Catholic, but they’re just trying to have those values and work their lives into that.
Jeremi Suri: Right, so the virtues of daily faith rather than pontificating from on top of the mountain, right? And that’s part of what democracy is. I think our conversation today has really brought out in particular this notion of pluralism. And that pluralism is based on the intersection of values. The dream of the American founders, and the dream of most religious leaders is not to have everyone think the same way. It’s to have people who are diverse and come from different backgrounds find ways to work together to enhance their lives.

Sean Hassan: And to see that that’s a strength to just view that as an inherent strength as opposed to something that just is a fact of live that has to be navigated or tolerated or whatever.
Jeremi Suri: I think that as a historian, that has always been the greatest American strength that we always have different groups, and we find a way to work together, even in our most difficult times. I’m inspired by this conversation because I think it connects the brilliant thoughts of this group with a lot of what I see young people trying to do every day, and our future is bright because of this. Thank you for joining us, this is democracy.
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Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at The University of Texas at Austin.
Speaker 2: The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke, and you can find his music at harrisonlempke.com.
Speaker 3: Subscribe and stay tuned for a new episode every Thursday, featuring new perspectives on democracy.
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