This is Democracy – Episode 65: Naturalized Citizenship: How Does it Work? What Does it Mean for American Democracy?

Narration: This is Democracy. A podcast that explores the interracial, inter-generational, and inter-sectional unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy.

Jeremi Suri: Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. Today’s episode is a very special episode. We are going to focus on the topic of citizenship, in particular naturalized citizenship. How individuals, like many of our relatives, become citizens of the United States when moving to the United States. And we have with us, also making this an incredibly special episode, a close friend and colleague and fellow scholar, Miha Vindis. Welcome Miha.

Miha Vindis: Thank you.

Jeremi: Miha has just become a citizen of the United States. In fact, on Friday of last week I attended his citizenship ceremony here in Austin and it was one of the most moving things I have done in a long time. Miha is a man of many, many talents. Among other things he is a professor here at the University of Texas at Austin teaching in a number of different programs at the business school, at the LBJ School and elsewhere. He’s a consultant who works to help organizations with strategic planning, and we’re hoping he’ll soon be doing that in Washington somewhere. And he serves on the board of Habitat Humanity in Texas. Miha has worked and lived in multiple countries, in particular he worked for Shell Oil in the Netherlands, he’s lived in Thailand and Germany and Poland. His PhD is from the LBJ School here in Austin. We are so lucky to have Miha here, and we are so fortunate to have him now as a citizen, a voting citizen of the United States. Before we turn to our discussion with Miha, we have of course Mr. Zachary’s poem that will set our scene. What is the title of your poem, Zachary?

Zachary Suri: America in the Faces.

Jeremi: Let’s hear it.

Zachary: I have seen America in the faces of the courthouse. New Americans in America ready to make a new America. The world has always caught us watching this nation like it is our child, finding infinite embraces in the legal esoterica. The world has always caught us watching America like it is our child, how it is to each of us inseparable with deep feeling, impossible to view from above. I have seen America in the faces of the courthouse, watching their papers finally filed, indebted to perfect ideals and an obligation of new explanations of American love. I have seen America in the faces of the courthouse, joy unbridled, the impressionist paintings of flags hanging in the rain. The world has always caught us watching America like it is our child. Nature for naturalized, to love all of this through weakness and pain. The world has always caught us watching America like it is our child and there are no more truthful lines in the rough poetry of airport welcome signs, no greater dedication than the courthouse monuments to the conscience of our nation, freedom’s dominance. I have seen America in the faces of the courthouse, and we can only hope that we all might be saved in its memory by the remnant gestures of generosity sent across the ruins of endless wars for the faces that will pass through the courthouse doors here in 50 years hence.

Jeremi: Hmm. I love the imagery, what is your poem about, Zachary?

Zachary: My poem is really about not only how meaningful and how powerful the process of citizenship and American citizenship is for those who become American citizens, but also how important citizenship and the immigration and Americanization of so many people around the world has been so vital to our nation and will continue to define us.

Jeremi: That’s right. It’s made our country, it’s how most of our families came here. It’s extraordinary. Miha, why did you decide to become an American citizen?

Miha: I think that for any big decision in life, there is usually two sides to it. On the one hand there is the part that is driven by your heart, and then there is the part that is driven by your brain.

Jeremi: Yes, yes.

Miha: Let me backtrack here a little bit. So, when I was nine years old, I moved to Thailand and grew up there. So, from the age of 9 until 18 I lived in Thailand. There I was exposed to a very multicultural society. Certainly, less homogenous than say, Slovenia or Yugoslavia was at the time. That’s also where I went to an international high school, it was basically — it followed an American model of high school. So, we had grades 1-12, most of the students there were from the US, expats families, etc. So, I got a little bit of flavor of the United States through that. And course you know, I was nine, ten years old when I first moved there, so of course I was watching G.I. Joe and Transformers.

Jeremi: Fine literature.

Miha: And I’m not a psychologist, but I imagine that that had some kind of influence. But for me it was more seeing this multicultural society and seeing that the world was a lot bigger than where I came from. Slovenia is a very small country, less than two million people. So, for me it was kind of eye-opening. Part of that, I met a lot of Americans there. I started learning more about American values and the ideals that the country would represent — represented for at least those people who were there. I became, I would say, enamored in a way. I wanted to learn more, I became curious. Not in an intellectual sense, more in a kind of personal sense. A lot of my good friends were from the US and so I started building these bonds and I started appreciating what the country represented at a very young age. But it goes even earlier than that for me at least.

My parents grew up — they were born in the ’50s and they grew up right after the end of the Second World War at the height of the Cold War. In 1949, Tito broke with Stalin and that allowed him to accept the Marshall Plan.

Jeremi: Right. This is Josip Broz Tito, the communist leader of Yugoslavia.

Miha: Exactly. Communist leader of Yugoslavia, he was basically the person who held the Republics together.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: And in 1951 or ’52 I believe, he opted into the Marshall Plan, and suddenly there were food deliveries made to Yugoslavia. My parents’ families were recipients of this.

Jeremi: Wow.

Miha: Just the other day my mom was telling me how they got, it was like flour, sugar, condensed milk, things that you couldn’t get in post-war Europe. But things that we know are important for children growing up — grow up and be healthy adults. Looking back, I think there were already things that the United States was doing that was helping, even before I was born, at least my family. Now, I know that the Marshall Plan wasn’t a pure and altruistic exercise. Obviously, you have to look at it in the context of the Cold War. But nevertheless, for my family it was a personal thing. So again, you do feel like, hey there is something that we do owe the United States. At least I felt that. I think that this was a country that for whatever reason, ended up helping my family. This was before I was born of course. And then as I got older, I came to appreciate more and more what the United States represented. I learned that, coming from again, from a very multicultural setting in Thailand, moving back to Europe to go to undergrad, I went to an American university, University of Maryland, University College Campus in Germany, in Schwäbisch Gmünd.

And again, there were over 30 nationalities represented, once again it seemed like everything was moving me closer to the United States and to America in that sense. So, from that sense I always felt somewhat enamored by the values, at least the ideals that the country represents. Once I moved to the US, there was this also more of an intellectual piece of it. So, I moved to the US in 2009 and the plan was to go to grad school, get a master’s degree, go back to Europe and potentially go work for Shell. The door was open to go back.

Jeremi: You already had a great job there.

Miha: Exactly. I was considering going back and continuing that career. I worked with some really great people, it was an exciting job. But then, of course, you make plans but then life happens.

Jeremi: Of course.

Miha: And so, in the process I obviously met my wife at the time, I obviously stayed for the PhD program like you mentioned, I bought a house, started two companies and decided that this was where I’m going to settle down. I firmly believe that for a representative democracy to work, that people who reside in those countries– that our democracy, should do everything in their power to civically participate.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: For me, of course, I knew that just being a permanent resident that there was limitations to what I could do.  For certain, I couldn’t vote and I think voting is perhaps the kind of main way of expressing our civic participation in many Western democracies. And I really wanted that. I thought that if I’m going to live in a country I want to be able to participate. I don’t want to be just an observer of the social contract, I want to be part of it.

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: And so, I think all of those things combined made me think, I really want to pursue this path and so we started with first the process for the green card or permanent residence. After three years, I was eligible to apply for citizenship. Yeah, and then like I said, the process finally concluded on Friday after five years.

Jeremi: Right, that’s amazing. Almost to the day of the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Miha: Almost.

Jeremi: Almost to the day, almost to the day. So Miha, what is the process like? You talked to us about your life choice process, but most Americans, especially those who, like Zachary and myself, who were born into citizenship, we often take it for granted, first of all, but secondly, we don’t know what the process is for becoming a citizen. So how does it work?

Miha: Sure. The path is very different depending on who you are and what kind of path you pursue. So, the — you know, you can get permanent residence first through marriage, and then through that you can apply for citizenship. Through extraordinary skill, I believe it’s called — so athletes, professors, and so forth. Of course, you can go through the asylum route which I think is probably the most difficult or getting more difficult today. So, I went through the spousal route. My spouse is a US citizen, and that’s how I first got the green card. There’s two parts of the process here. First is the permanent residence part where you are getting your so-called “green card.” It’s called the green card because the card is physically green, or used to be. And so that process was a lot more about the spouse and the relationship with the spouse.

Jeremi: So, proving that you are actually married, and things of that —

Miha: And here is the interesting thing that I learned in the process. It’s not so much letters from people that testify, “Hey, these two people are in a real relationship,” it’s not photos from your travels. No, the main way that you prove that you are in a real relationship is through finances. It’s all about the money.

Jeremi: Sounds very American.

Miha: Yeah, it is. And that was fascinating, it was proving that you had joint bank accounts, credit cards, joint mortgages — those are the things that are used to demonstrate that it is a real marriage. And that’s fascinating, I think it tells you a lot about at least the people who were crafting the policies, that this is the process that we have. It tells you some–

Jeremi: It’s not about love, it is about money.

Miha: No, it’s about money. It was fascinating. So that was the first part of it. The second part, the actual citizenship part is no longer that connected to your spouse. You still have to prove that you are married because of the path I was on, but at that point it is more about the person. That is — just the sheer amount of background checks — Before I even got to the naturalization piece, so for the permanent residence, the green card, I had my bio-metrics so fingerprints and eye scan four or five times, at least.

Jeremi: Oh my gosh.

Miha: Background checks are extremely, extremely extensive. This process is very difficult, very time consuming. And to anyone who is listening to the podcast who is interested in going through this process, get a lawyer. If you have the resources to use a lawyer, get a lawyer. That saved us a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of hassle. There the process is more, “Are you really the kind of person that we want to allow to —

Jeremi: And what kind of person do we want to allow to be a citizen?

Miha: And here’s the interesting part. So, I brought with me here — this is — you fill out the form N-400. These forms have these numbers. Form N-400, you fill out some basic information, you have to do a background check, and all this. But here is some interesting questions, and I think the application itself, this N-400, is an interesting historical document in its own right. These documents aren’t updated often. So, you have the usual questions, things like, “Have you committed a crime?” etc. But then there this a question, “Have you ever been a member of, or associated with the Communist Party?”

Jeremi: Oh my gosh.

Miha: Now, I can see how in the Cold War this was relevant, perhaps this is even a relic of McCarthyism. But today, I mean there is a Communist Party of America. I presume, and I’m assuming that people can believe that if they choose to.

Jeremi: I don’t think it threatens the Republic.

Miha. No, I don’t think so. But here’s the one that really caught me off guard, and we had a lot of good discussions with friends about this one. So one question says, “Between March 23, 1933, and May 8, 1945, did you work for or associate in any way either directly or indirectly with the Nazi Government of Germany, any government occupied by Germany,” and then here’s the last piece, “Any German Nazi or SS Military unit, Paramilitary unit, Self-defense unit, vigilante unit, citizen unit, etc. that worked at a concentration camp, extermination camp, prisoner of war camp, prison labor camp, or transit camp.”

Jeremi: Wow.

Miha: I can see why this question is in this process, but it also tells you about how dated this is.

Jeremi: And who is still alive from that time who–

Miha: Right, so this was — next year will be the 75th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. So, you know, if we assume that somebody was twenty years old when they were in a role like this, they’d be in their nineties? So how long before we, for example, update this to be more relevant to today. Are we going to wait until it is 100 years after the war?

So, to me it was fascinating going through this process and seeing what the concerns are. Once you are done with this application and once it is approved, you have your interview. And the interview is the big thing, that you see it in a lot of movies, particularly romantic comedies. People going — And for me the process was very straightforward. But again, it is going to be very different for different people. So, for me, you go in, there is two parts to the test. There is the civics test, which is basically history, policy, etc.

Jeremi: That’s interesting too, because many American citizens couldn’t pass that test.

Miha: I don’t think so. There is 100 questions, you have to answer 6 right, you get 10. So, once you answer the 6th one correctly, they stop asking you questions.

Jeremi: What, they give you 100 questions and you only need to get 6 right?

Miha: Yeah —

Jeremi: Or they give you 10 of them?

Miha: They give you 10. So, they randomly select 10 questions.

Jeremi: From the 100 they can choose from. So, you can actually — this is not hard to prepare for, you just prepare for all 100 questions.

Miha: Yes, it’s really not hard.

Jeremi: Give us an example of one of the questions.

Miha: Sure, so what is the ocean off the eastern coast of the United States? Who did the United States fight in the Second World War?

Jeremi: Okay, so this is pretty basic.

Miha: How many senators are there, who is the current president, who is the first president? The questions are very straightforward. I actually asked the officer after my interview, what — where do people stumble? And she said it’s either the dates questions or it’ll be the numbers questions. For example, people will say, you know, the question is: How many senators are there? And somebody might just say 50.

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: Because there are fifty states, but there’s 100, and so the other piece, and the officer mentioned, was that people are very stressed. You’re going into this– this is a– you don’t get a redo, right? If you get it wrong, you often have to start the process. There are ways that people can redo the interview. There are all kinds of guidelines, and I’m unfamiliar with that, but for many people if you fail that, you restart, and I don’t know what happens if you restart, whether there’s a red flag in your file. So, people are pretty stressed out, and plus this is a really big deal, right. You’re not interview– this isn’t just like a job interview. This is something that will impact the rest of your life. And so, the second piece then is the English language test, which is somewhat absurd. So, you get three tries to read a question correctly and then answer it, but they tell you the answer. So, mine was, this was all electronic today by the way, no paper. It was a little tablet in front of me, question pops up and the officer said, “Can you please read the question?” And the question was: Which is the most populous state in the Union? And then she said, “Now write down, ‘California is the most populous state in the Union.'” And that was it, right. The whole interview, though, the small talk, the chit-chat really is part of the assessment to make sure you speak English.

Jeremi: Interesting, interesting. And who interviews you?

Miha: You’re interviewed by an immigration officer and they are folks with different kinds of backgrounds. They’re all professional bureaucrats, people who have worked in immigration. So, the officer I talked to actually told me that she was new to this interviewing job. She had worked on the, I believe, on the research behind it, where they do background checks on people and all that. So, she did that for a number of years, and then she moved to an interview role. I think she said she was relatively new to it. We actually ended up talking about the L.B.J. School and U.T. because we do, you know, the L.B.J. School hosts some of the large naturalization ceremonies and she had been there twice and helped organize them–

Jeremi: That’s great.

Miha: in her previous role. And so, we ended up talking about U.T. and barbecue in Austin. My interview was 17 minutes long. I waited for about an hour, but the interview was about 17 minutes. That’s because, I think, for me the case was fairly straightforward, right? I’m highly educated. There was no question about my financial situation. I have a spouse. You know, everything, all the ducks lined up. Things were easy. But when we were sitting, and my wife was there with me, when we were sitting and waiting in the waiting the room, the hall, this is a big hall, maybe 60, 70 people waiting. And you’re watching people go in and out.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: And you see some people come out and they’ve got big smiles on their face. And you know things went well. But once in a while you have, you know, somebody walk through the door and you can see they’re on the verge of breaking down. That made the process real for me. And that made me realize that we often talk about immigration in this country. We talk about policies, politics, ideology, we talk about all kinds of things. It’s easy to forget that there are real people who are going through this process.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: And I can’t judge whether some of those folks had their naturalization process denied for right or wrong reasons. I can’t comment on that. What I can say is, though, that you could see on their face that this was a life-shattering event.

Jeremi: Of course. Of course.

Miha: And that really brought it home.

Jeremi: Well, and for many of them this is not just a dream, this is a source of salvation, right?

Miha: Yes. Might be a question of survival. Absolutely.

Jeremi: What did you learn about yourself in the process? I know, Miha, obviously you’re an incredibly thoughtful, cerebral, learned person and you’ve cared about democracy as a scholar and as a citizen for a long time. But I imagine the process also changed the way you thought about democracy.

Miha: Yeah. I learned something really interesting about myself, so I’m glad you asked this question. When we go through this process, we think about citizenship, right? This is naturalization. We’re talking about getting a passport when we talk about citizenship. But there’s another element to this, and that is the question of allegiance.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: Now, for most people, right, you’re born a national– or a citizen of a particular country, it’s almost assumed your allegiance is therefore automatically attached to that citizenship. And that’s where it lies. I think I learned from that, for me the story was much more complicated, because if someone had asked me four or five years ago, “Miha, where do your allegiance lie?” I’m not sure how I’d answer. In fact, I’m not sure if I would have an answer. You know, I was born a citizen of Yugoslavia. When I lived in Thailand, you know, in ’91, Slovenia became independent, so that was the first time in my life that I switched citizenship. It wasn’t my choice.

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: I couldn’t do anything about it. It just happened, right? And so suddenly I had to go from thinking of myself as Yugoslavian to a Slovenian.

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: And then Slovenia joined the EU and suddenly become EU citizens. I know it’s not quite the same thing. You retain sovereignty when you’re part of the European Union.

Jeremi: But still. It’s different.

Miha: It’s different, and, again, the citizenship might not have been an issue, but for me, it was, again, the question of allegiance, right? And I think one reason why I never truly felt at home when I lived in Poland or the Netherlands– they were all wonderful countries, don’t get me wrong– was that I never felt like– I never felt that it was more than just a residence, it was more than just the citizen component. There was something missing. I don’t yet know whether it’s the allegiance part that was missing and that’s something I still need to figure out–

Jeremi: Right. Right.

Miha: but it made me really realize that, for me, the question of allegiance was really a nebulous topic, because I didn’t know where to put it.

Jeremi: Of course.

Miha: I didn’t know whether it lay with Slovenia, with the European Union. And I was one of those people who, when we got their European passports, I started identifying myself as a European first and Slovenian second, so you know those bureaucrats in the European Union that wanted to develop the United States of Europe, I was like their poster child.

Jeremi: You were indeed. You were indeed.

Miha: I was their poster child, but I don’t think my allegiance lay there.

Jeremi: Interesting.

Miha: I still don’t know, and so during the ceremony one of the things you do, you not only pledge allegiance to the United States, and that felt on a– it’s hard to describe, but I think on an emotional, intellectual level it felt great to finally be doing that in a way. But then you’re also asked to rescind your allegiance at the same time to any other state, actor, government, organization, et cetera. And so, you know, you say those words but my thought was, “But I’m not entirely sure I really place my allegiance anywhere.”

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: And that’s a strange position to be in. So, this is the, at least the second time that I’ve officially changed citizenship; if you count the EU, three times. But it’s the first time that I’ve actually pledged an allegiance–

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: to something. So, beyond that, the citizen step.

Jeremi: But there’s no reason, Miha, you can’t have allegiance to multiple entities. There might be legal limitations in the way this is talked about–

Miha: Absolutely.

Jeremi: but in daily practice, we all have allegiance to multiple sports teams–

Miha: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeremi: to multiple family elements, right? Why can’t you have allegiance to the United States as a good democrat and allegiance to Slovenia as a good Slovenian democrat, right?

Miha: And I think you’re right. I think that there is no reason that you can’t have both. It’s that, for me, what I learned about myself is that I didn’t really– I’m still not sure exactly where my allegiance lay before this process. And that’s really interesting because, as somebody said, I’m someone who’s very introspective. For me not to know that, it bothers me a little bit

Jeremi: No, that’s true. That’s true.

Miha: And so now I want to backtrack and figure out why. Why did this happen? Is it because I grew up and lived in so many different countries, I traveled so much, my citizenship changed so much? I don’t know what it is, but it’s certainly something very interesting and I don’t think I would have learned some things about myself had I not gone through this process.

Jeremi: Wow. That’s very powerful. Zachary, you had a question.

Zachary: Yeah. How do you think this process would have been different if you looked differently or if you were from a different socio-economic status?

Miha: I think it would have been harder. I think the process would have taken a lot longer. So, I, and again, I don’t have the data to back any of this up, this is my opinion. I did, however, talk to a number of people who were going through the process at the same time, both in person and followed some blogs and forums online, so I was discussing with people because I wanted to know what to expect. And as I was doing this, I learned there’s a whole community of people out there supporting each other going through the process. And it seemed to me that the people who were from parts of the world that, for any reason we are somewhat suspicious of, whether rightfully or wrongfully, they have a much higher hurdle to jump over, right? So, if somebody comes from Iran, for example, they have a lot more things that they have to prove, that their allegiance are with the United States simply because of the perceptions we have. That may not be right, but I think that that’s how it is. I’ve also heard stories of people who had put in the application and they’re waiting for a reply, and it’s been years, and they’re still waiting to hear back.

Jeremi: Wow.

Miha: So, they haven’t been denied residence or citizenship, whatever they’re waiting for. They haven’t even heard back, because backlogs are so large, right? And these are people who are primarily applying, for example, through family, right?

Jeremi: Right. Right.

Miha: So, if my parents wanted to immigrate, it would take a very, very long time. So, I think, yes, the process probably is different. And there’s this little short story here. When I went in for the permanent residence interview, and so, you have to go in with your spouse, because I was applying through my wife–

Jeremi: Well, I thought you just bring your checkbook [laughter].

Miha: Here’s our checkbook. Right? And what was fascinating when we came in, everyone assumed that my wife was the one there applying for residence, not me.

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: Right.

Jeremi: Well, because she looks Mexican. She’s of Mexican origin, right?

Miha: Exactly. And that was the assumption. And when we walked out of the interview, we were like, “Wow. This is really interesting, but maybe not surprising.”

Jeremi: Right. It was very powerful at your citizenship ceremony the number of new Mexican citizens and how proud they were. Miha, for a vibrant democracy like the United States, do you think there are things we should be doing to facilitate naturalized citizenship? It strikes me that even though there’s a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment we’re hearing in our society now, the one thing that has always been true about the United States is we have been a society of immigrants, some voluntary, some non-voluntary, and that immigration has consistently been the source of innovation, growth, and creativity. So, what are your thoughts thinking about naturalized citizenship in the future of the United States?

Miha: I think at the end of the day, and I know this has been said before, we are a nation of immigrants. There are very few people who can truly claim that their roots are in the North American continent.

Jeremi: Right. Right.

Miha: But this country was founded by people– I mean, it was imagined, right, and created and sustained by immigrants. Many of the founding fathers were first-generation.

Jeremi: Sure.

Miha: They were people who had immigrated to the United States. And even today, even if we look at American society, there are so many people who are still proud of where their roots are from.

Jeremi: Of course.

Miha: I can’t tell you how many people, when they figured out I was not from the U.S., and I think my accent still gives it away, would say, “Oh, well, I’m Irish American,” or “I’m Chinese American,” or “I’m Scottish-American.” Adding that before American tells you that people still really care about where their roots come from.

Jeremi: Of course. Yes.

Miha: Now, some of us, you know, our roots may not be as deep here, because we’ve arrived more recently, but this– I really don’t think we’re that different on that level. Sometimes I think it’s some politicians, and it’s certainly some of the 24-hour cable news networks will have us believe it’s always this us and them, but that’s not quite true. And I have a quote here. I really like this. This is from George Washington, and this wasn’t the “Farewell Address.” This was– I’m not sure where this quote is from. Maybe you can tell me. But the quote is this, he says. “The bosom of America is open to receive not only the opulent and respected stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all nations and religions whom we shall welcome to a participation of all our rights and privileges.”

Jeremi: I believe that’s his letter to the Jews of Newport, Rhode Island.

Miha: I think you’re right. Oh my gosh. I think you’re right.

Jeremi: It’s a very famous letter. It’s beautiful, written in his own hand.

Miha: It is. The whole letter is fantastic. So, this idea that we’re accepting of immigrants, this isn’t new. This isn’t something that started in the ’60s or ’70s. This isn’t a liberal idea. This is an idea that, I think, is a basis of–

Jeremi: It’s a founding idea.

Miha: Exactly. And this was later reiterated. John F. Kennedy, and you know I’m a big fan–

Jeremi: I knew you were going to quote John F. Kennedy.

Miha: I have to. I have to once. He said, “Out attitude toward immigration reflects our faith in the American ideal. We have always believed it possible for men and women who start at the bottom to raise as far as the talent and energy allow. Neither race nor place of birth should affect their chances.” Right? And to me that encapsulates, I think, what this country is all about. And we can continue to discussing of politics and policy, and we should. We should have a lively debate. We should have people on different spectrums of this debate. I think that’s what makes this country great. I would just encourage everyone to remember that at the end of the day all of us are here because we love the concepts of liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. For those of us that went through the process very recently, this is maybe a bit fresher in our minds because, for many people, these were the motivations for pursuing citizenship. And I think the ability to civically participate in a meaningful way, particularly through voting, is incredibly powerful. I think it’s not just a right, I think it’s also an obligation.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: And I hope that many of my fellow Americans will continue voting, and those who haven’t, that they will begin voting.

Jeremi: That’s beautiful, Miha, and so strongly stated. We always like to close on a very positive note and, using this historical perspective that you’ve shared with us so well in a personal and scholarly way, we’d like to use that to think about positive ways of going forward. What are the things that young people in particular who are listening now and others can do to help encourage naturalized citizens like yourself, to welcome naturalized citizens, to continue this process despite all of this negative rhetoric that we hear? Negative rhetoric that’s not new to our time either, by the way.

Miha: Yep. Yep. So, I would encourage young people to do two things. One is continue participating civically. It’s very inspiring to have role models. And this is certainly true, and isn’t just true for me and a lot of other folks I’ve talked to, love the fact that in this country you have organizations that encourage young people to vote.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: Here at the University of Texas we have a number that do that. In fact, a wonderful young lady who runs one of the organizations was in one of my classes in the leadership program and I’ve asked her to register me to vote.

Jeremi: It’s fantastic.

Miha: I think that that’s really inspiring–

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: to see people involved, so I would encourage young people to continue being as involved as you can, not just in voting, in all manner of civics, you know, participating in debates, participating in town halls, canvassing, whatever it is in whatever way you can get involved. Demonstrate that despite the rhetoric that we hear, that this is not the future of this country. I think, if you can demonstrate that, it’ll make a lot more people feel more welcomed, and I think more positive in thinking that, “I’m joining this society.” And, you know what, despite all the issues that we have, the next generation is taking this seriously and they are taking the lead.

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: The other thing I would say is there are organizations out there that help people who are going through the immigration process. Now, I was lucky that I had the resources to get a lawyer and to help with the process. There are organizations that help people who don’t have the kind of resources that I was blessed with and help them move through the process. So, look at those organizations. Perhaps there’s some you can volunteer with or support, but having that support as you go through the process is absolutely critical–

Jeremi: Right.

Miha: because nothing is worse than getting to the interview and realizing that some letter is off and then having to restart part of the process.

Jeremi: It’s such a powerful point. It seems to be one of the great things that’s happened in the last few years is that people have stood up and gone out to airports and elsewhere to help defend people who are being mistreated by some of our short term policies, and we can all be a part of that story. And, in fact, that’s an old part of our history: immigrant and ethnic support networks, settlement houses, organizations that–

Miha: Absolutely.

Jeremi: provide the kind of legal advice, provide medical advice, provide language instruction–

Miha. Yes.

Jeremi: and there are all kinds of ways in which we can help people who are coming to our democracy and want to contribute to become members of our democracy.

Miha: Yeah.

Jeremi: That’s really wonderful, really wonderful. Zachary, what do you think? Is this a mission that young people like you can get behind?

Zachary: Yes. I think the whole issue with immigration is something that young people care deeply about, and I think there’s so much power in humanizing this process and the people who are these immigrants, because they remind us so much of ourselves.

Jeremi: They do. They do. Miha, I have a last question for you then before we close, just building on Zachary’s point. Do you think that your American citizenship now will change the way you vote?

Miha: No. I don’t think so. [Laughing] That’s a good question, but no, I don’t think so. I think that I– by the time– I’m 41 years old, I think by the time you get to your late-30s, you’re pretty much fixed in how you think. So, that’s pretty much set, at least in terms of how I’m going to vote. I do hope, though, that I will vote in every single election that I can.

Jeremi: Yes.

Miha: Because, like I said, I think that for representative democracy to work, we have to participate, otherwise the question is: Who are our politicians representing?

Jeremi: Right. Right. And the reason I asked that was because I think one of the elements is built into what Zachary was saying to is that we need more voices in our democracy. Our democracy thrives, this has been one of our themes throughout the podcast, it thrives on what James Madison called pluralism.

Miha: Yes.

Jeremi: Many points of view. And, in a way, we don’t want you to change your vote, we want you to bring your perspective to your vote, which is what you’re doing, what young people do, what new voters do of all kinds, whether they are 41 year old new citizens or whether they’re 15-year-olds who will soon have the right to vote based on age. We’re very fortunate to have you in our democracy, Miha. We’re very fortunate to have all the naturalized citizens going all the way back to our grandparents, great-grandparents, for Zachary and me, and the ways in which they have continued to make our society better and more open with every generation. Thank you for joining us, Miha and Zachary, on this episode of “This is Democracy.”

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Speaker 4: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin.

Speaker 5: The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke, and you can find his music at HarrisonLemke.com.

Speaker 6: Subscribe and stay tuned for a new episode every Thursday featuring new perspectives on democracy.