This is Democracy – Episode 58: Hispanic Exclusion in American Universities and Society

Unknown Speaker 0:05
This is Democracy,

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a podcast that explores the

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interracial intergenerational and intersection of unheard voices living in the world’s most

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influential democracy.

Jeremi Suri 0:19
Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. Today we’re going to talk about a difficult and important issue and an issue that’s crucial to the future of our democracy, the exclusion of Hispanic citizens and residents for many American universities and other institutions in our society. Why this exclusion seems to be endemic to so many of our institutions, and how history can help us recognize it and do something about it. We’re joined by my very distinguished colleague, Professor Jorge Khan, his artist as Ghana. He is the Alice Drysdale Sheffield professor of history at the University of XS. He’s one of the leading world authorities on the history of encounters between citizens and residents of the Americas, and those who come from outside of the Americas. He’s written many, many articles and books, three books in particular, how to write the history of the New World. The Puritan Conquistadores, it’s wonderful to call the Puritans can peace to doors very, very subversive of your Hey, and nature, Empire and nation, which I believe grew out of his dissertation at the University of Wisconsin Madison, where I used to teach so we have that connection among many things. I just wanted to read you before we move on a short excerpt from Jorge’s webpage, which I think really captures what he does. And the excitement around his work. He writes, The core of my intellectual project has been to demonstrate the deep formative role of Latin America, to the colonial history of the United States, and to the history of why identity as a whole, not just slavery, globalization and capitalism, where Jorge and others have written about this, but also even deeper issues, science, abolition, ism, and democracy, our subject here today. So we’re very fortunate to have Jorge, welcome. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you. It’s delightful to have you here. Before we turn to our discussion, of course, we have our scene setting poem from Mr. Zachary Siri, what’s the title of your poem today? Zachary.

Zachary Suri 2:23
exclusion is a funny word. Well, let’s hear it. exclusion is a funny word. It rattles through my tongue sweeping like a tidal wave. It is a feeling we have all known swinging sweetly on tree branches from a young age like scout Finch accepted in urban jungle. We have known across to our minds like those long needles that pin down giant butterflies and stuffy museums when it is spoken in quiet rushed voices by our parents on the other side of the bathroom door. And everyone was once just a boy, you are on America’s coattails just an observer of democracy from the top of the stairs, and we were children then driving past the east on a towering concrete Interstate, staring up at the little bits of light showing through the gaps in the highway above. exclusion is the distance between the child holding an empty ice cream cone and the melting pool of ice cream on the ground measured in lumens, the unbalanced coexistence between walls and sunshine, like the flowers that bloom to the cracks in the concrete. And exclusion is the lifeblood of hatred, the end all be all of corruption, sagging through the window like raindrops and heavy wind. And there is yet beauty and sorrowful songs that seared into my brain from the records of my youthful days spent sifting through record stores and doing homework with Otis Redding. There was a wonderful bitterness and the way the light streams to the live folks on the rundown streets and weekday evenings that makes me cry. And there is tenderness in the eyes of the homeless man and the highway, but there is suffering in his feet.

Jeremi Suri 3:49
That’s a very evocative poem. Zachary, what is your poem about?

Zachary Suri 3:53
Well, my poem is really about how horrible exclusion is and how much suffering it creates an how much talented puts down, but at the same time, how, in many ways those who suffer the most have produced some of the greatest benefits for our society and some of the greatest beauty.

Jeremi Suri 4:11
That’s that’s a really important insight. Jorge, do you agree with that? Does that resonate with you?

Jorge Khan 4:16
Well, first of all, I think you are great points. I am a poet myself, and I am impressed.

Jeremi Suri 4:22
We need to have your poetry on next time.

Jorge Khan 4:24
Perhaps? Yeah, yeah. I’ve been doing poetry for 40 some years. Wow. never published anything. But he liked poetry enjoyed it. Bry too often? I think he said, it’s a very difficult craft. Yes. It’s not easy. But so I congratulate you. Yeah. It’s amazing what you did? I mean, you do it every week. Yeah. Wow. Well, what I can say, but I think you’re right. In certain specs, it’s I think it’s complicated. And we’ll be talking about Yes,

Jeremi Suri 5:03
yes. Yes. So So why why in a society that claims to be open and democratic? Why? Why have going back to the beginning, in a sense, where you are the foremost expert who are AY have Hispanic peoples been excluded in our society?

Jorge Khan 5:19
And he said, they said, the question I think it has to do with with the discussion of great many people, it’s not just Hispanics, I mean, African Americans, Asians, at different stages. I think the problem with Hispanics is that the issue of exclusion is not being addressed, and he’s not being identified. And wars is not being sold me the Hispanic for some reason, remaining visible, having Americans do not they have organized the demand justice and integration and the fight very hard against marginalization. And they have powerful already got voices. I don’t think Hispanics do. I’m not entirely clear why it might be the great diversity of peoples within Hispanic communities. Cubans don’t get along with Puerto Ricans don’t get along with I don’t know Mexicans, Mexicans don’t get along with whoever is it they have to get along. And at the end, there is no unity. And there is no common common goals. I’d say that you could see that, for instance, in the elections in Florida. I mean, it reminds to me a puzzle, really an existential puzzle that people employed, I would Latinos would have been elected the Trump or Scott, the recently take what? Right, but yet they do. Right. So how could that be possible that you don’t see that in the case of African Americans, there’s far more consciousness and unity and predictability and abilities to Yes. So I’m not I mean, I am here, partly because I’m puzzled by this.

Jeremi Suri 7:03
Is this is this a long standing issue? Do you see this? I mean, because again, your work goes back to the 16th century. Right. Do you see Do you see this issue, particularly of Hispanic disunity, and the racial complexity of Hispanics do see that as a long standing historical, I think

Jorge Khan 7:20
it is, I think in the in the case of United States,

it is visible in that many Hispanics see themselves as as white or aspire to be wise. aspire to be white, whether they are receivers, YU something else, but they aspire to be why many of them are mix, the original mix, mongrel. And some of them I mean, families, you see that variety and diversity, you see that in my family, I have brothers who are very brown and brothers who are, I would be considered white, was it a white, I’d say if I walk on the street, and don’t know where my mouth

so then my father was, let’s say, Misty, so tired, petite, Mexican looking guy, my mother is very white with blue eyes. So we have these, these mix these rainbow, all sorts of hues and tones within our own family. And so that is, I think, one reason. And, and, and there’s a lot of racial tension and consciousness with even within families. experience that in my own family, Lena, my wife has spirits that are within their own family. These kind of hierarchies within within close households.

The good song, the good daughter, the not good,

Jeremi Suri 8:55
very good. And these are racially defined within a family interesting. And so the last lighter skin being favored over the darker skin,

Jorge Khan 9:03
interesting, young mothers, fathers who are family, remember my father telling the anecdote of when he was born? That me, I guess he didn’t hear any of these, but his mother would tell him when he was growing up, is it when you grew up when you was you were born, our family would come by and to congratulate me. And then when they saw you, they would say, Oh, don’t worry, Clementine, you’re not remember the president of the time this is the 30s was an Indian issues or euro became president. So there

is a chance

to succeed. So that that that would be a typical experience.

Jeremi Suri 9:56
And so you’ve experienced this and you again, you’re a historian, this you’re studying this more than anyone else? Why does this get recreated? Why has this not gone away? My students would be surprised. Maybe they wouldn’t be surprised. But many of them would be surprised to say that after all this time, after all this emphasis on racial equality since the Civil Rights Movement, and and all of these societies that you know, which have had these movements, or why does this get I

Jorge Khan 10:21
think because the issues of racial and social mobility in Latin America are far more fluid than they are here in the United States. So it allows for the concealing of of the sanctions. So for instance, we have the first black president of Mexico was getting ready to whom 1830s he passed the new constitution of slavery that led to the War of the Alamo here because I mean, after all, Santana came to abolish slavery, that is the first battle the Civil War is often forgotten. And so you have the first president of Mexico cultural Empire is black. Right? Then you have a president of Mexico, Benito Juarez was an Indian. Yes. From what haka in mistaken from central Mexico, who became president

and you have lots of Mexican intellectuals who are Indian.

And, and then

Brazilian, Porfirio Diaz, who was the big dictatorship in Mexico in the late 19th century was himself an Indian. So you see these fools for you don’t have these racial boundaries that are sharpening and divisive as the only United States, you don’t have that. Within the Latino Hispanic community. For instance, one of the things that really struck me when I came to Texas and learn about something about the history of Texas, that and it goes to channel 1841, if you are a black with many meetings, you have to leave the state by constitutional law, which is striking because by 1530s, in in a 1540s, all over the freedom in Mexico, excuse me, Panama, Colombia, the coast of Canada, hand and center, you have 80% of the population, settlers in those areas are free black communities. So the first settlers of the United States were to these United States are blacks in Florida, free black communities. So the majority of the white population in in, in Latin America, for by and large, even when there was leaving in the there can incorporate in millions of his leaves, literally, to plantations, etc. The free black population always remain larger than the the enslaved population. So But nevertheless, raised was always there. And so you have that tension between so mobility families that were Kelly that were honor is more important than actual color of the skin. You can be black and because you’re white, right, if you have enough income, you dress appropriately. Interest is not it’s not uncommon. So status is not necessarily tied to, to the color of the skin is great is tie to, to

social capital, not necessarily just

Jeremi Suri 13:33
cash, which makes it harder to confront in certain ways. Right. Yeah.

Jorge Khan 13:36
It’s more difficult to pinpoint say, Well, you know, gotcha, because yeah, it happens within families.

Jeremi Suri 13:42
Right, obviously, right. It’s very powerful point. Exactly. You had a question?

Zachary Suri 13:45
Yeah. Um, how have Hispanics after immigrated to the United States, balanced, wanting to stay true to to not only being Hispanic but their individual like, like, whether they’re from Cuba or from Colombia, they’re in individual ethnicities, and being American and in and assimilation? Yeah.

Jorge Khan 14:06
So the question, I think I am an American. I mean, I believe to the longest and I say it’s 31 years already. I love this country. My father first came to this country as a young man 18 was recruited to be man, he came as a hospital orderly to work in New York, and he was recruited to the to the army and sent to Korea for three years in, well, not in, in field hospitals and became hospital orderly in during battle survivor, he went, and then he could not get into college here as a Hispanic because he looked Mexican. And so all his pals, one African American and one white guy to college, and became physicians, his best friends in the United States. And he had to leave the United States to study medicine and went to Mexico. And then he always had these, these relationships in the United States of kind of love, admiration, but also longing. And so I grew up with this DOD relationship, the United States, and eventually came here for whatever reasons, went to college, went to graduate school and and without the language, we have English, I came without a single word of English. And had to learn it became fascinated by language, fascinated by the structure of, of grammar, syntax, alliteration rhythms, cabins, I tried to master the language actually spend the years working hard on writing and reading, on on speaking, and what slowly and then I have my kids and they are Americans, and they are the V. But at the same time in the household, we always kept these, the sense of belonging to keep to Ecuador, our language, our customs, and Sarah, Sarah, the are the things we eat, our festivities, the things we celebrate, everything was kind of always looking back to all the all the families, I guess, who are immigrants. And so we kept that and always been there. And I know even my kids remain with that strong identity, so my daughter would call herself Catania, she’s never believed that you, Nicole, she spent months there, but she’s never leave there. And yet she sees herself very much as part of Ecuador.

Jeremi Suri 17:07
Yeah, so part of the point here is unlike the categories that we deploy, in our demography, and in our social science, in fact, most people live among many categories. And our identities are not captured by being American or Ecuadorian. But actually some combination of all of those things. And our Spanish This is particularly true, because most Hispanics are many at least share the kind of background you’re describing of multi countries, multi, maybe even multiple religions. So I cannot,

Jorge Khan 17:34
I can and this is the thing, I cannot be an American.

I am reminded constantly that I am not, they do not belong

in many different many different ways, sorrow or not. So it is not me who doesn’t want to be fully integrated. It’s just the system that keeps you reminding keeps reminding me that I know really, I’m not really the club.

So which is actually the reason why we’re here.

Jeremi Suri 18:06
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so it as we’ve been discussing, in many contexts, these challenges within universities and within cities, and within many of our institutions, institutions that claim to be progressive. You’ve made this point many times and and maybe you can elaborate for us on on, you know, what are the sources of exclusion, that that you feel in this context?

Jorge Khan 18:31
Yeah. Well, I mean, I, as I told many people already, I was, I was turning into a Latino here in Texas. I was I was I was the farthest away from from, I mean, I thought it was silly, to be honest, but I was turning to do here. Why? Well, that’s a good question. has to do with this low realization that, that who I was my name, my accent, I have an accent. My background made me different. And I was constantly reminded about it. So I began to explore the issue of Hispanics in universities and begin to find a striking patterns like, for instance, the university has about 2010 year and tenure track faculty. There are hundred and 20 where Hispanics, now Hispanics are defined here in kind of funny ways, because at least 10 of those hundred and 20 are Italians and Spaniards

have the highest salaries for Hispanics, huh?

Then there is a cap in the salaries of all those hundred and 10 Hispanics, the leftover that cannot be cross this across hold in the salary of all these hundred and 10 individuals who cannot be crossed regardless of merit, regardless of obligation, regardless of anything. It’s stuck there. And there are substantive differences gaps in in in salaries across the board, associate professors, assistant professors, and average of about 2020 $21,000. With white and even blacks constant throughout. So it’s not specific to any location. Now they’re the The other thing that is striking this university is also distribution of these hundred and 20 or 110 individuals that reinforces the category of the Latino or Hispanic, which is they belong in ghettos. So it’s not an even distribution? Because I mean, there is only two Hispanics in law, our Atlanta and 50 faculty, of which one is Argentinian.

White Argentineans Are you with the European name.

And then there is one in LVJ. Out of I don’t know how many faculty and there is none in about 50% of the apartments and easy to send centers of campus, not

Jeremi Suri 21:17
even large departments. Not.

Jorge Khan 21:19
So if you take 80% 85% of centers, departments and units in this campus have between zero and one Hispanic. So the majority of Hispanic or Hispanics, by legal terms are clustered in is in, in certain areas. So of course, I Spanish and Portuguese, which so whenever I go, when I open my mouth, and I say I work at UT, the first the first question is, Oh, so you teach Spanish? No. Are you Chinese, Chinese medieval physic?

Jeremi Suri 21:53
Why not?

Jorge Khan 21:54
Why not.

And there is a problem that most of our kids don’t campus TVs as, as the default position. They see the role models as teaching Spanish or teaching apology or teaching ethnic studies, Mexican studies, they don’t see the main roles of quantum physics or, you know, Chinese medieval physics or whatever it might mean whatever. Know, there are certain role models that there that these kids

can use them.

So there’s that. So the clustering of faculty in certain areas, then there is the issue of well already said numbers, but with the students, you see these striking numbers, we have about 40%, of religion of Texas is considered Hispanic or Latino or Latina x. Yet, when it comes to the high school population is 48%. Okay, it’s almost almost the majority of the revolution in high schools, yet, these, these universities, the only non Hispanic serving institution in the state, so we don’t have a threshold of 25% as students to be a Hispanic serving institution, we only have 23% admission rate. And the more you do it, the more strikingly becomes why. We have two systems of admissions, one is called the holistic mission. And the other is the 10%. Rule 10% rule admits 28 to 29%, Hispanic, automatically. So when if we were to use the 10% rule, we will have 2028 to 29% population.

Jeremi Suri 23:39
And just to explain to our listeners that that 10% rule means if you’re if you’re in the top 10% or so of your class, you automatically get in to UT in Texas, right? Yes. So these are these are Hispanic students who are in the top 10% of their class they get in no one has any say over 10

Jorge Khan 23:54
years. 10% admission rule would guarantee some diversity. And so about one

Jeremi Suri 23:58
in three, that our Hispanic you said 29%. So I’m a 29. Yeah, so a little less than one in three? Yes. Yes. Who get admitted that way?

Jorge Khan 24:06
Well, running for a little closer to one on one in four. But but it’s fine, don’t cross the threshold of Hispanic serving institution. But it doesn’t why because we have holistic admissions, obviously, the missions is being presented by institution as a way of the encouraging diversity, right? Yet, holistic admissions actually is a great affirmative action plan for white, because it completely switches from 28% to 23 22%. So the great majority of people who have made it through holistic admission system is a white. And yet the administration as far in court in the Supreme Court twice, over the right to have holistic admissions on the under the guise that holistic missions actually encourage diversity is the opposite.

At least for Hispanics, at least for Hispanics.

Yes. I think it’s also the case for for blacks. So this is something that requires some reflection, and and dialogue and, and, and, and, and reflection in the wider university community, because most of our colleagues just assume that the that we are doing well through holistic, we’re not right.

Jeremi Suri 25:29
So Jorge, if I might ask you, in a sense, these are facts that most of us, myself included, didn’t know in the same degree of detail, but but they’re pretty undeniable. You can walk around this campus, and you can see what looks like a different demographic from the demographic of Texas as a whole. That’s That’s obvious. That’s undeniable. Why do you think this is?

Jorge Khan 25:53
Wow, I’ve been reflecting on these why why, why the numbers? Why the salaries? Why are you making feel like an outsider? As you said, Yes. Well, another striking is statistics. We have studied the UT budget in detail, fine print, and found that are 50 516. And now chairs and professorships all over campus.

Unknown Speaker 26:20
We know that, for instance, in the College of Liberal Arts

Jorge Khan 26:25
have about 118 endowed positions. 38 are endowed chairs you are one of them. Well, you’re not in in call. So you you belongs to LBJ. I think my chair is in the LBJ School. Yes, one of the 38. But in any event, I am one of six endowed professorships in college out of a 911

Jeremi Suri 26:55
of six Hispanics,

Jorge Khan 26:58
yes, and there’s only one in culture belongs to an administrative position is not really a merit of scholarship. So there are no chairs, period. So that would say, makes me feel as an outsider. Literally, because I have that, I would say they have to be done direct, good to have an endowed chair, I have done everything

that

would warrant that reward, but

it’s never happened. It hasn’t happened in the University of large with, with the Hispanics period, not in color, not in culture, we learned not not one of them, is good enough to have an endowed chair. Thanks a good example. But there are many other examples. I mean, that we have discussed these in our department, the 111 case is that I’ve never been elected to the executive committee of my department. Again, maybe at the beginning, I thought it was because I’m not simpatico enough. I mean, that is fine. But then you begin to see these patterns, wider vibrancy happening, so happens that is it’s it’s widespread. It’s not only me, but it’s widespread. So most Hispanics on capitals are outside networks of authority, and and, and, and, and hierarchies of authority. There’s only two things in a university who are Hispanics. And these are the things of variable colleges, education and social work with very little cloud in general. Then there is one example I just want to put you on one example, which is striking because is the case of Lela, Lela, is the Latin American Studies Center of one of the greatest honor, literally, yeah, they came back to this is surprised media. No, I thought it was a product of the quarry. It is not a great precision proceeds founded in 1943, or something. So yeah. And it has. So it has a history of about 80 years or more. He 79 years or so, there, it has had 13 directors, none of them. Latinos are Hispanic.

Jeremi Suri 29:26
We’re talking about any stage Not a single one, not a single one.

Unknown Speaker 29:29
Not a single one.

Jeremi Suri 29:30
So I come back to the question because again, you’re you’re one could potentially quibble with parts of your data. But your overall point, I think, is a very powerful and undeniable one, that there seems to be a structural and equity in place and and other groups could point this out to African Americans could point this out various other groups could could point to this, it wouldn’t look exactly the same. Why?

Jorge Khan 29:52
Why? Well, this is the thing, the situation of African Americans is not as bad.

Jeremi Suri 29:58
In the Hispanic case. Why? Whoa, whoa,

Jorge Khan 30:00
my my point is that it is easier to see in equities for African Americans than to see in equities for Hispanics. That is my entire point.

Unknown Speaker 30:12
You’re asking me why?

Jorge Khan 30:15
Well, I think it’s the the nature of raising this country that is built on polarities of white and black is made these other groups, but particularly Hispanics, that are kind of in between they’re invisible. They just are invisible to the issue of marginalization, inequities, they just play the they are a minority, they are some kind of excluded population, but they are not seen. It’s really cool to see them. But I’d say that would be the The reason I might I really, I really don’t know, I am a struggling I remember him trying to understand and grasp

at one I think if

Jeremi Suri 31:04
and and this question now, you know, takes us to to where we have to close, but it’s also opening for our next conversation in a way, it seems to me we have to understand the causes, if we’re going to find a solution, right, because I don’t think what you’re saying, Jorge is that on a day to day basis, you’re seeing intentional efforts to exclude, but you’re pointing to something structural. So So where do you think and this will be our ending for this conversation? But in a sense, it’s a beginning. Where do you think taking your historical analysis we should go? What should we be starting to do to correct this?

Jorge Khan 31:40
I think the problem or most of the problems, married

professorships, salary gaps, etc, lack of access to the

structures of power in administration, governance, etc. The all. Go back to the show social capital. Social Capital explains many things. Yes, my opinion explains who gets to elect him who gets appointed to one who is visible who’s not?

Who has

is seen as trustworthy, who is seen as honorable we seen as

respectable

Jeremi Suri 32:24
and social capital, just for our listeners, do you mean networks, prestige, legitimacy, status? All of these things that, in a sense are invisible until you don’t have them? Exactly. Yes.

Jorge Khan 32:35
So there are these thing that’s called. So who votes for you? Who Sees who remembers you when they are voting? Oh, that guy? Oh, he’s good. Let’s vote for him. that it works in such a way that Oh, who will get that? Who will nominate for the stitching position? Oh, that guy? Who will? Who will we appoint to these position and our chair? Oh, that guy. So the those who are not visible in these processes get excluded. Now. The issue of social capital can be easily solved. Okay? How, for instance, in our department, we created something that I think is very good, for instance, for teaching prices, that are boys avoids the issue of social social capital. When it comes for instance, two nominations, salami nation, and we have a committee that decides on the period whether these release a good tiara,

Jeremi Suri 33:37
you don’t have to wait for someone to nominate you, you can nominate yourself, right,

Jorge Khan 33:39
I think that’s good. The only thing that

that will solve the issue of of social capital will be rotation, rotation, in positions of authority and governance. People get to rotate, just automatically avoid issue of, of appointments, patronage and also elections. One thing that I discovered, to my surprise, is that elections lead to segregation, idea study of 50 years of membership of the faculty Council. Its

Jeremi Suri 34:21
other universities, faculty

Jorge Khan 34:22
university faculty Council. To my surprise, I found this is striking that in 50 years of archives of faculty Council, only two Hispanics have occupied any position of authority, the last individual who by the position of authority data in 2011. And then there is another the chair of the Senate Council in 1991, I think I’m trying to remember the data to stoop to out of hundreds of position of authority in the faculty Council. So people do not elect Hispanics period, they are not good enough, for whatever reason. So the vote of the majority creates segregation scenes, there are so few Spanish, so we have around 20, do not have the numbers to vote any of us in the anywhere. So we are always excluded, we remain excluded, because we are very few. And because we are invisible. So I think elections are a problem. So we need to address the issue of elections as to how to get to all these positions of authority. And I think rotation is a good way of addressing that in in the parliaments or other other levels. So those are, for instance, to concrete example. Those

Jeremi Suri 35:46
are excellent examples. I actually give us a pathway for the show also how historical consciousness can actually improve policy. And the only thing I would add, would be that I think one element of these This was implied and what you said it providing the resources and the ability for those in groups that are excluded to actually build social capital. One of the things and again, this is implied and much of what you said, Jorge, so you said it so well, is when we study groups that have moved from being excluded to being less excluded. I don’t know if groups that are excluded ever become unexploded. But what we find is that they they find ways to build social capital, often with the help from those who are more on the in group, but often, often in their own terms, building social capital, and one of the things you’ve been doing very well, I think, is working with other Hispanics on campus to build social capital. Social capital is not something that is God given social capital is created, right. And those in power have an obligation to help and its creation. And those who don’t have social capital have an obligation as you’re showing to also work toward their own self creation of social capital.

Jorge Khan 36:50
I think it has to do a lot with political organization.

Jeremi Suri 36:55
Precisely. Precisely. And and I think actually, the history of democracy shows that right? I feel better, Brando famously said, right, that if you want to get something done in a democracy, organize, organize that that I discovered. And you’ve you’ve you’ve provided not only a historical analysis of that, but also an example of that. Zachary, let’s, let’s close with you. How do you think about these issues? You’re growing up in Texas, surrounded by these issues in your, in your school, in your activities? How do you think about these issues?

Zachary Suri 37:27
Well, I think it’s, I think there’s still a big problem, because a lot of people with less diverse, wealthier backgrounds don’t really interact with those some lower income backgrounds, both Hispanic, African American. And I think that there’s a real problem about a lack of interaction. But at the same time, I think there’s a lot of hope, because so much of our student population of our young people are coming from so many different diverse backgrounds, that there’s a real chance for, for us to learn about each other. And I think that’s a very, that’s really important, because we see each other every day and we get to know each other as we go through school.

Jeremi Suri 38:06
And so the interactions can help overcome some of these historical inheritances perhaps, right? Well, this has been a fantastic conversation, Jorge, you have educated us about the history going way back. You’ve also given us insights into own personal experience. And thank you for sharing that with us. And you’ve given us some important ideas, at least conceptually for thinking about how to move forward at the very least, I think you provided us with a clear sense of the problem. And how history helps to articulate and open our eyes to in a sense that what staring us in the face that we often don’t like to talk about. So thank you, Jorge.

Jorge Khan 38:40
No, thank you. This was a pleasure and was great meeting you and you are a great boy.

Jeremi Suri 38:45
And Zachary, thank you for your insights and for your poem. Thank you for joining us for this episode of This is Democracy.

Unknown Speaker 38:58
This podcast is produced by liberal arts development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison lumpy, and you can find his music at Harrison lemke.com.

Unknown Speaker 39:12
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai