This is Democracy – Episode 52: Hong Kong’s Democracy Movement

Unknown Speaker 0:05
This is Democracy, a podcast that explores the interracial intergenerational and intersection of unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy.

Jeremi Suri 0:24
Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week, we’re going to talk about the democratic protest in Hong Kong, and how we understand the events in Hong Kong happening before our eyes and the future of relations between Hong Kong and China and the future of democracy movements in that part of the world. We’re very fortunate to have with us, Sherry, Janice. The morning Sherry, good morning. Sherry is a PhD candidate in the history department here at the University of Texas. She’s also a very decent, Distinguished Teaching Assistant, who was one of my teaching assistants. She’s writing really a fascinating dissertation. She’s finishing it as we speak, on the formation of the Southern maritime province of Guangdong and its identity in relationship to China, East Asia and the wider world. Cherry does a lot of fantastic work, looking at how parts of China thought of themselves in relationship to the wider world through maps through travel. And that’s, of course, very relevant for thinking about Hong Kong today. There’s no no part of the world I think that’s more interconnected than Hong Kong. Sherry is a native of Hong Kong. Hong Kong is our home city. So she has a very direct personal as well scholarly connection to the events occurring there. And we’re really, really fortunate to have you with us today. Sherry,

Shery Chanis 1:48
thank you so much for having having me. Happy to be here.

Jeremi Suri 1:50
Before we turn to share these expert insights. We have Zachary’s poetic insights. What’s the title of your poem today? Zachary King, the between hanging between Let’s hear it.

Shery Chanis 2:02
I have never been to Hong Kong. I’ve never had to face the August teach to store the Secretariat Politburo for my freedom against policemen with medieval shields. I have never had to close an international airport to protect democracy never had to face tear gas bombs and pack streets for justice. I’ve ever slept on cold jail floors hearing electric currents and rig judiciary’s screaming myself hoarse, I’m crying streets, shoved myself forward among masses of people to force open the doors of freedom. But we are all with you staring out our bedroom windows at night. We are all standing among you nine weeks 10 weeks 11 beginning to count months years until we can finally count votes. And we are with you haunting the condensation of your water bottles and the blistering sun. You may not hear our feet marching with you. You may not hear voices chanting. But we are with you in spirit as we wait in line at the bank jog and morning Miss. And I sat once with the son of yours on a bench outside of both booty place in an English college town. And I listened to your past and your present. And I am with you again. Every time I sit at a park bench and stare at your future hanging between union Jackson Harrison cycles.

Jeremi Suri 3:12
Wow. I like the way you brought in Union jackhammers in circles but also boba to finally work that into a poem. What beyond boba tea? What is your poem about

Shery Chanis 3:25
my phone is really about what it’s like to view democratic struggle, and particularly those that in Hong Kong as someone who comes from a country where democracy has is embedded in our society for so long. And it’s really about how we stand in solidarity with the events in Hong Kong. But at the same time, we were limited in how we respond in the ways that we are willing to respond. And why do you think we’re limited? I think we’re really limited by because of a lack of encouraged by leadership, but also also political realities and economic realities right now that make it very hard to lend material support.

Jeremi Suri 4:10
Right? Right. Well, these are all issues we need to discuss. Sherry, for those of us who are not experts on this region, how should we understand this student movement? Who are the students What’s going on here? in Hong Kong? How should we understand it?

Shery Chanis 4:28
Well, before I answer your question, I just wanted to respond to Zachary’s poem, I thought it was really well written and you know a lot about what’s been going on, and it’s very impressive, and and I hope that you’ll keep watching the news. And and and just keep going and with what you’re doing so. And then in terms of what’s going on, right. The protest that we’re seeing right now, they really have evolved from efforts to oppose the extradition bill. And that’s basically how this round of protests began. And and over the past two months, and since June, really, the protests have evolved into anti government protests, actually. So is there the protesters really dealing with much bigger issues, more than just opposing the extradition rail is really about not trusting the government at this moment.

Jeremi Suri 5:28
Gotcha. And just to remind people about the extradition bill.

Shery Chanis 5:31
Sure. The extradition bill is an amendment to the current extradition law that was in place right before the handover of Hong Kong from Britain to China. 1997. Right. The handover was 1997. If I’m not mistaken, I think the current extradition, the extradition law was in place in 96. Okay, so just very shortly before, and extradition law has arrangements with I think about 20 countries around the world, and but it excludes it excludes Mainland China, Taiwan and Macau, the very close the closest areas. And so what the government is trying to do is, in their words, try to close this loophole. Try to make arrangements between Hong Kong and these places in case there are fugitives in Hong Kong who need to be extradited. So on the surface, that seems a very logical arrangement. But what really concerns most Hong Kong people is the discrepancy between the legal system in Hong Kong and also the legal system in mainland China. Sure. So it’s there. Before the protests that we’re seeing today, there was actually talks between the government and the commercial sector businessmen, for example, they they were among the first to actually expressed concerns about this Amendment Bill, because the bill actually ended it’s a lot of economic offenses. So if a businessman from Hong Kong, for example, does business in China and then intentionally or unintentionally commit a crime that is illegal deemed under the Chinese legal system, then they could be found wanting,

Jeremi Suri 7:17
even if it’s legal in Hong Kong?

Shery Chanis 7:18
Right. So, so there’s a lot of concern, and the government made some compromises took off about nine offenses. But at the same time, the legal professionals in Hong Kong also expressed concern about about this amendment. Because in their expert opinion, there’s just too many loopholes as the government was trying to close this loophole. So and then word got to the general public very quickly, about this bill. And, and like I said before, the the general concern, the main concern is really unintentionally doing something in mainland China and then not knowing that they have committed a crime, and then they would become fugitive in Hong Kong. So so in the just this is what the, the concern about the amendment is, and so just one question on that it is could also be used for political crimes, right. So if you said something that is illegal to say, in mainland China, but legal in Hong Kong could be extradited to China under this proposed bill. Right. Correct. And also religious freedom as well. So so it’s very it’s a sweeping reform, or Amendment Bill, it’s

Jeremi Suri 8:29
a challenge to freedoms that hope that citizens of Hong Kong cherish, right, yeah.

Shery Chanis 8:33
So. So that’s really, to Hong Kong people is really a threat to their freedom of speech, freedom to assemble and freedom to express their opinions in whatever means that we can right now.

Jeremi Suri 8:46
And so how did those protests which seemed to succeed in persuading, Miss lamb who’s the Chinese appointed person responsible for Hong Kong and others persuaded them to pull this bill back? Why didn’t that end the problems?

Shery Chanis 9:03
So the official language that Mrs. lamb was to suspend the bill. And that was her first official response to the massive demonstrations in early June. And for the Hong Kong people, they were not happy. They were not satisfied, because they were afraid that even though she has said, suspend it, the build could come back later. And so what they really want, what Hong Kong people really want is for the government to officially say withdraw the bill, which the which Caroline has not said, I see. So and she has since said the bill has died. That’s That’s her second comment about the bill that and she said that it’s not coming back, it’s died, isn’t it? There’s no chance but Hong Kong people still they want to hear we withdraw. Okay, so what they want to really know that this, this is not coming back,

Jeremi Suri 10:05
I assume? And is that what has led to the escalation of the of the conflict on the ground?

Shery Chanis 10:11
Correct? Yeah. So. So the public wants the bill to be withdrawn completely. They want the government to specifically say that use that wording. But they also have a few other issues that they want to raise with government. And so withdrawing the bill is one and, and they also want Carolyn to step down. So because she’s not voted in by the Hong Kong people, and there’s no system for Hong Kong people to vote for their top leader. So

Jeremi Suri 10:44
She’s appointed by Xi Jinping is that what happened?

Shery Chanis 10:47
it’s not quite appointed. There is a 1200 member committee, who could vote for for the chief executive, which is the president equivalent, Hong Kong government. And and most of these 1200 people, they are business people there. They have vested interest in with the aging so so there’s voting on the surface, but it’s not a is not a universal thing in Hong Kong. So so that’s also one of the demands that that Hong Kong people want is, Hong Kong, people have never been able to vote for their top leader, and not when it was a British colony, not since the handover. And so this is really something that Hong Kong people want, they want. They want a leader that they that they vote for it that it can be held accountable. And because right now a big issue to with Carrie Lammas, she has said she’s not stepping down, she’s not resigning, and she’s going to continue with her role. But she’s not popular welcome people, and because uncomfortable feel that they she has made mistakes. And she is not varying the responsibility. So those so that’s another issue that that the protesters want the government to address. And, and also, I think, as we know, the protesters have escalated, the protests have escalated, and they’re we’re seeing more violence. And there have been more clashes between the protesters and the police. And there has been a lot of accusations to war against the police about excessive use excessive use of force. So this is something that really has angered a lot of Hong Kong people. And we know as Agra, you mentioned tear gas, right. And a lot has been used over the past month or so. And so Hong Kong people are, are also protesting against what they call police brutality, as well. So and and right now also another issue that they want to the Hong Kong people Hong Kong, the protesters want to want to be heard is about the the protesters who have been arrested, and they there about 700 of them, according to police numbers, and most of them are young people. And so a lot of people think that they are political prisoners and and they’re not being released. And so they want the government to release them unconditionally without any charges. And so, so yeah, that there. These are the basic demands. So it really has evolved from just opposing the extradition bill to more general issues about what’s happening.

Jeremi Suri 13:50
And this is a dynamic that often takes shape and protest movements, they begin focused on one grievance, and then that opens up a conversation about a larger number of long standing grievances. Correct. How do we understand what happened at the airport, because, for better or worse, that’s getting a lot of attention, the apparent violence used by a small number of protesters at the airport, apparently tying up a government official, the protesters have apologized. But how should we understand that?

Shery Chanis 14:27
So the, there’s a, so at the airport, I think the most of the protesters have left, as far as I know, as of this morning, and what they were trying to do, there were a few things, one, they, they wanted to have a relatively safe place to protest, because of all the tear gas that has been used on the streets, and even at the subway station. So it’s happened a couple times. And so for them the protections thought that if they gathered at the airport, they met chances of police using tear gas would be minimal, because there are visitors or passengers and, and and they’re there, right because there was no tear gas at the airport. And and so this that’s one thing. And the other thing is they really want the really the protesters wanted the visitors to know what’s what’s really going on through first hand accounts. So while they were sitting in while they were walking around the airport, they were also holding up a lot of signs in different languages, mostly in English, but also in other languages. And, and they were distributing flyers and just different materials to let passengers know international passengers know what’s been going on. And, and the third thing that they third goal that the protest protesters had, gathering at airport was to really force the government to, to talk to them and to respond to, to the issues that we just talked about.

Jeremi Suri 16:01
Zachary, you had a question?

Shery Chanis 16:02
Yeah. How mainstream? Are the protesters? Are they? Are they still a fringe group of society? Or does everyone in Hong Kong know people who are involved in the protests? And who are who are part of the protests? Or is it something there’s still a smaller group of society?

So if we’re talking about the, say, the protesters at the airport, the the most frontline protesters, they are mostly young people, high school students, college students, or young professionals in their 20s, maybe, but but it’s also there is also a mix of people. There are older people, and there they really they work different jobs. And, and their common goal was to really force the government to talk and and as far as whether they’re a fringe group, I, I think in terms of the use of force, the means that they are using, then they maybe they are they this this is the group that more willing to clash with the police. And they’re not afraid to go up to the front line and really face the police. Right. And but but there are really a lot of protesters in Hong Kong who, who are against the extradition bill, who, who have gone out to the streets. And now if you remember, or you have seen news reports about the June 9 and June 16 protest, a lot of them they are parents, grandparents, and who took their babies with them to protest march, peacefully. So. So I think, in terms of the use of force, I guess, you can say that’s a French word. But then if we look at the the airport protests, a lot of them they were not clashing with the police, either. So. So yeah, it is I think it’s, yeah, it’s a relatively small group, I guess it would be correct to say that that’s willing to fight with the police.

Jeremi Suri 18:12
But do they have the support as best you can tell as a as a citizen and scholar? Do the protesters in their demands? for protection of basic rights to do you think they have the support of the vast majority of Hong Kong?

Shery Chanis 18:26
I think so. I think so. And actually, when these frontline protesters protest, they went to the airport or elsewhere on the streets, a lot of a lot of Hong Kong people, they would come support them by giving them meals, giving them subway tickets to go home or travel and, and so they do have a lot of support. That way and from material support, right. But but that’s driven by the general public support to was the cause right about asking Carolyn and her government to respond to, to all these issues that that most Hong Kong people really want to discuss.

Jeremi Suri 19:13
Right. And this is what you’d expect. I mean, generally, for any movement, the protesters tend to be a smaller subset of a larger majority of people who are not in the streets, but supportive of them. Right, right. Correct. And that’s what you what’s going on here your thing, right. So how should we think about the claim by the Chinese government that’s being made all across social media and elsewhere, that these are revolutionaries and extremists and fringe elements? And they’re pointing, of course, to things like the small incidents of violence? How should we understand those claims?

Shery Chanis 19:49
I think one way to understand these claims is that Beijing is anxious about whether this relatively small group of protesters would gain more and more support and draw more protesters to, to have to take the same approach in terms of being willing to go to the very front line to confront the police. Because right now, the a big big issue is really people are not happy with the amount of force that the police is using. So so so for Beijing, for them to see that these protesters are willing to to risk being arrested and to and to disobey the police then then that’s a very, that’s an alarm for them and and in light of what’s happening elsewhere within Mainland China, you know, then that’s something that Beijing definitely doesn’t want to see. And they want to take it take care of it as soon as possible, whatever that means. Right. So So Beijing is anxious and and so they right now what we’re seeing in Hong Kong is they have pressured prominent business businessmen to to openly support the police, for example, that that’s one, one thing they they have done so and and they have openly bakkt, carrier laminar government, as well as the police force. So. So right now,

Jeremi Suri 21:29
we’ve also had extra military exercises across the border, right to kind of thriving activity. Right.

Shery Chanis 21:34
Yeah. So there are different theories about what’s what’s happening there. Some people think that maybe they are preparing themselves to cross the border. But some people also have said that, well, the October 1 is coming is the 77th anniversary of the establishment of PRC. And so maybe they are just preparing for their and that’s the latest theory. I’m I’m I don’t personally I don’t think I have enough information to really know for sure what what that means. why they’re there. So many armored vehicles across the border. So and, and I’m hopeful that they’re not going to cross the border. At the moment, so and I think, what happened in 89.

Right, so is, is something that I don’t think the Chinese government wants to repeat. So and and certainly they don’t want to have that happen in Hong Kong, right.

Jeremi Suri 22:46
Because of the public embarrassment and because of the backlash that would create, right?

Shery Chanis 22:51
Yes. And and the international community’s watching, and there’s widespread coverage, right about what’s happening in Hong Kong, through the media media outlets, right. Sure. Oh, sure. Yeah, so the word washing,

Jeremi Suri 23:05
right, right. You’ve used the phrase a number of times Hong Kong people. Right. And and this gets actually at the core of some of your research also, right? Is there a separate identity do do do those, like yourself from Hong Kong? See themselves different? Doesn’t mean that they’re not Chinese. But do they see themselves in a different way from the way mainlanders in China see themselves?

Zachary Suri 23:29
I think so. I think there’s just a lot of a lot of differences between Mainland China and Hong Kong, both politically, economically, culturally, so and all these form our identity. Right. And, and I think using the term Hong Kong people, doesn’t mean we’re not ethnically Chinese. Right. And and I think it will be fair to say that we appreciate Chinese culture and we travel to China. Sure, right.

Jeremi Suri 23:59
We a lot of business with China.

Zachary Suri 24:01
Right? Yeah. And China and Hong Kong, really connected nowadays. And so

I think that it’s, it’s it’s somewhat a complicated issue, I think identities. Almost never a straightforward way. And but I think, with what’s been happening, not just this year, but also in the past 20 years or so, and this Hong Kong as if we could use that term, it’s become more distinctive, interesting, in a way, so. So yeah, it I think, for a lot of Hong Kong people, it were both Hong Kong people. Were also Chinese. So and, and there’s a distinction between the China, Chinese people, China and the current.

Shery Chanis 25:01
So, So yeah, it’s it’s not as there’s no straightforward answer unfortunately.

Jeremi Suri 25:09
But it does seem that at the root of this and in some way, and that the citizens of Hong Kong are accustomed to and feel connected to a form of government and a form of society. That’s different from at least what what is the standard form of political and social behavior on the mainland in China? Right. I mean, that that does seem to be, and this is something I remember, in 1997 people predicted would be a problem.

Shery Chanis 25:36
Right? Yeah. And what we’re seeing right now is the end the effort to to oppose the extradition bill, and even the bigger issue about being able to vote and to vote for the top leader, and that’s the extension of that.

Jeremi Suri 25:49
Right. Right. Right. Which, which, to those in a in a different tradition seems so obvious, right now that you would at least get to vote for you. Right? Your leaders? Right. Right. So we’re is this go Sherry, I mean, we can all unfortunately, imagine a repeat of Tiana men in 1989. And and and in a sense, we don’t have to talk about that right now. Because that’s the nightmare we can all imagine. What are other scenarios? How can we expect or hope this, this would come out? What What is a realistic and to this conflict, at least for the short run? That doesn’t result in in mass military intervention?

Zachary Suri 26:28
That’s like, an important question. Great question. And there’s, again, no easy answer. I think one important thing that we we can hope for is that the majority of protesters are the majority of Hong Kong people, they

will want peace. I think that that’s a fair statement. Right. And and using force on the protesters side is really a last resort. So and, and, and I don’t I don’t have an update on that right now. But I think a couple marches is are being planned right now for this weekend, and they have requested permission to take to the streets. But I don’t know what the update is. And so I think, I think a lot of Hong Kong people are willing to take to the streets to express their view peacefully. And, and they have actually specifically asked that the more frontline protesters not to use any force. So I think there’s still that rational side, that that we can hope will take over. And and so that’s the more short term thing, and I think there will probably be more protests, the wills and social happen. And what would be interesting to see is, school is starting in a few weeks. And as we have mentioned, a lot of these frontline protesters are students, you know, high school students, college students, and, and some college students are planning, walkouts, and different things to to protest. But But I, I think it would be I’d be curious to see what happens when school shorts, would they not go to school with a walk how with Hey, keep going to the street or, or they would do something else? Or it was another way to to protest?

Jeremi Suri 28:39
What would Beijing have to do to come to a realistic compromise? Let’s assume that there’s actually a desire to come to a compromise in Beijing.

Zachary Suri 28:53
One big demand Hong Kong people have right now is to talk to Caroline, and the government. Because they’re right now there is no conversation is is, is basically protesters go out. And then and then she responds by, by doing a press conference, there’s

Jeremi Suri 29:13
no direct communication,

Zachary Suri 29:14
no direct communication, and and how can people feel that she has not really responded during those conferences, press conferences, and so, so they really want Carolyn to really talk to them really respond to what they’re asking her to do? So. And I think if, if Carolyn is willing to do that, I think that will be very helpful. And that will also ease some of the anxiety that the Beijing is experiencing right now.

Jeremi Suri 29:45
Sounds like a realistic, realistic step. So many of our listeners are concerned about these issues. But don’t know what to do. They don’t have the direct connections on the ground you have? And I’m sure you you struggle with this too. What should a non Chinese non citizens of Hong Kong, who care about these issues, what should we do?

Zachary Suri 30:16
This is going to sound very basic. But I think one thing that we all can do, no matter where we are, is to stay informed. Because this is hard to, to lend support, in some ways, or lend or form our opinions without knowing what’s really happening. And I know a lot of us are doing that. But But keep doing it, I would say stay informed, and the information is only one click away. And so keep paying attention to what’s been happening, new sources, you what are the sources that are the best best to inform us? Um, new source? I think, actually, a lot of them the mainstream media outlets, they, therefore, I mean, there’s a lot of coverage. And I, I use a lot of the local sources, but so local newspapers, and and they’re fine, too. And Twitter actually is a pretty robust source,

Jeremi Suri 31:18
robust in all kinds of ways

Zachary Suri 31:19
lyst and all kinds of ways. Right. Yeah. So there, yeah, it’s easy to access this information, thankfully, so so we all do that. And then for those of us in the US, I think there’s also other ways to to lend support and to express your opinions, because the Congress has had actually, they have introduced a bill on let me see if I could find the correct title. It’s called a Hong Kong human rights and democracy at 2019 is a revision of the 92. Act. And Jeremy, you can probably speak to that a lot more than I can. But so, so something’s happening in the US as well. So if you want to contact your Congress about that, and that’s a practical way to, to express your to exercise you’ve pushed, for sure. And so, so yeah, I think there’s way there are ways

Jeremi Suri 32:25
traditionally, both parties, Democrats and Republicans, have spoken out on behalf of the human rights of citizens in Hong Kong and other parts of China traditionally, and that’s beginning to happen again now. But your argument is we could do more, yes. Does that matter? does have an effect on the ground?

Shery Chanis 32:44
I think it matters. It matters in the sense that we can let the Hong Kong people know that they’re not alone. Because it’s easy to feel that way after protesting for a while and writing really is happening. And then it’s easy to lose hope but but I think, to in the fight for democracy, we cannot lose hope. Right. And and that’s one reason the protesters wanted to go to the airport is to really let the international community know what’s going on. And so I think it matters and, and, and, yeah, so it’s, so if you are willing to do something about it, I was really sharp do something.

Jeremi Suri 33:30
That’s great. That’s a great a great message. Zachary. Does this resonate with you? Do you think that young people like yourself who care and are concerned about democracy in our country and abroad that this is an issue that you’ll pay attention to?

Shery Chanis 33:43
Yeah, I really think that young people care about other democratic movements, because it’s, it’s inspiring, especially to see other young people involved in these issues. But at the same time, I also think that because the people of Hong Kong, and China, but how Kong in particular, are so International, a lot of us know, people from Hong Kong, and experiences interacting with with Hong Kong. And I think that’s something that makes that makes United States feel much closer to Hong Kong than it is to other countries. I think that’s something that we really need to remember. Yes, we see these things. Yes.

Jeremi Suri 34:24
abroad? Yes. I think that’s a great point. I think, Sherry and Zachary, you’ve shared with us, I think one of the key insights, which is that democracy is not an American story. It’s a global story, right. And throughout our history in the history of other societies, the experiences of other people struggling for democracy often inspire and perhaps remind us, what we’re all about. And just listening to you, Sherry and and your words, also, your sincerity and your your personal connection to this, I think should remind us all, how at its root, right, democracy is about protecting the rights of people to have a basic say, in their own lives.

Zachary Suri 35:04
Would it be okay, if I read something, please. So this is something I saw on the news through one of the local newspapers and that that’s a letter that one of the protesters wrote, she had, I think it’s a girl. There’s a Japanese version and English version. So I’m reading what she actually wrote herself. And that’s a message to the visitors who just arrived at the International Airport. And if I’m correct, it was August nine, so less than a week ago. So this is what she posts a big post it note of sword that she put on the ground. And she said, Dear visitors, our homeland is sick. We are currently undergoing a difficult summer trying to remove the tumors in her constitutional system. Welcome to Hong Kong. And thank you for your understanding. We promise you a Hong Kong at her best on your next visit. So I think,

Shery Chanis 36:14
I don’t know this protester but but the hope that she expresses and and I think this is something that we all can take to heart. And, and it’s important, what she’s doing what Hong Kong people are doing.

Jeremi Suri 36:23
I think there’s no better place to close this conversation. For right now. We can all think about that going forward. Thank you, Sherry, for joining us and sharing what’s an emotional as well as an intellectual perspective with us. Thank you, Zachary, for your poem. And thank you for joining us on this is democracy.

Unknown Speaker 36:48
This podcast is produced by the liberal lights development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Music In this episode was written and recorded by Harrison lumpy, and you can find it music at Harrison Lemke. com.

Unknown Speaker 37:02
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