This is Democracy – Episode 51: Gun Violence in America

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This is Democracy,

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a podcast that explores the interracial intergenerational and intersection of unheard voices living in the world’s most

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influential democracy.

Jeremi Suri 0:17
Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. This week, we are discussing an issue that is sadly all too relevant in our lives. the proliferation of gun violence in American society. Where does it come from? Why has it grown? Why are we seeing so many of these shootings like Dayton and El Paso and others that have happened in the last few days? Why? Why is this become such a prevalent part of our society today? We have with us two of the most prominent people working on this issue in creative ways in the state of Texas and in the United States. First, we have Hillary ran Whitfield. She

is the state leader of the Texas chapter of Moms Demand Action for gun sense in America. She’s also a mother of two and a resident of Austin for about 12 years. Welcome, Hillary.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 1:11
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jeremi Suri 1:12
And we also have Ed Scruggs, who is the president of the board of Texas gun sense, which is a nonprofit that works in extraordinary ways around the state of Texas and works with other state partners to try to work toward ending the problems of gun violence in our state. Ed has been a resident of Austin for actually 24 years longer than most people.

Ed Scruggs 1:35
Right? It’s almost like I’m a native. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It’s great to have you on here. And

Jeremi Suri 1:41
before we turn to Hillary and add, we of course, have our scene selling poem for Mr. Zachary Siri Zachary. What’s the title of your poem? So many so many so let’s let’s hear.

Zachary Suri 1:54
I have grown up on gun violence like every child of post common sense America. I ever so many poems after tragedies like every other child of post common sense America, and I have sat in tears at so many visuals staring with knowing I is it every other child of post common sense America. I have watched so many cities become synonymous with tragedy. And I have learned my geography from mass shootings alongside every other child of post common sense America. And I have placed too many metaphorical rocks on too many metaphorical graves, bowing my head and respect listening to the radio broadcast with every other child of post common sense America. And we are the soothsayers among the masses. We are the Cassandra’s of the HEP parking lots, we are doomed to be ignored. We are the ignore generation being gunned down in the school hallways, silently losing our lunch every time we see the headlines. And we all might as well live in Toledo because we were are all mistaken for tragedy, all thought to be missing in action. But we are still here, staring at the TV screens with wide eyes, as holiday speech follows hollow prayer.

I’ve written so many poems about death about the dying. I’ve written so many poems about bullet holes, about the blood soaked clothes and sobbing mothers. I’ve written so many poems about how I just can’t stand anymore. I’ve written so many poems that I just can’t remember how to write one.

Jeremi Suri 3:16
That’s very moving, Zachary. What, what’s your message in your poem?

Zachary Suri 3:21
Well, my poem was really about what it’s like to grow up as I have, and many of my peers have on with mass shootings being a part of life and how it how in many ways it becomes, it becomes something that’s like, to everyone else is a normal part of life. But we recognize it something that’s out of the ordinary, and we’re trying to stop it. But many of us in our younger generation, we feel ignored. And we’re often thought to, to not care about these issues, but it’s something that really directly affects us, and will affect even our lives right now.

Jeremi Suri 3:54
Well, I think it’s a very important message. Hillary, it, it seems to me this is part of what makes due to become involved with this issue.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 4:02
Yeah, I need a tissue now actually, that was beautiful.

Ed Scruggs 4:05
That was fantastic.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 4:07
Exactly that it’s exactly that is the reason why I got involved.

I was not aware of our, you know, gun violence in America, I mean, I, you know, would watch the news the same way when tragedies would strike and feel kind of unsure what to do. powerless, maybe, is the word and, you know, just sort of resigned to go about my business and hope that someone would change it. Until Sandy Hook happened. And that really hit home for me because I’m, well, I’m from Connecticut, originally, not too far from Newtown. So and then I actually have friends who live there. And I know what that town looks like, I know how it feels to live there. And I know if 21st graders and six educators can be gunned down in their school there. It can happen absolutely anywhere at any time. Right. My daughter was also in first grade at the time. So it just it just felt just too too real and too personal to me to not get involved. Right away. So I was one of those moms that found Moms Demand Action before it was even anything but I found Shannon watts had created a Facebook page. And and I joined right away and started organizing in Texas. Immediately. Wow.

Jeremi Suri 5:33
Yeah. Wow. Well, we’re lucky that you’re doing this.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 5:36
Thanks. Well, I I’m lucky to you know, over the years, so many wonderful leaders, activists have come in and found our organization as well. And I feel really lucky to to work with so many passionate people.

Jeremi Suri 5:50
And how did you get involved with this issue?

Ed Scruggs 5:54
Well, I had been involved in some political activism along the way, I my time here in Austin I was involved in in efforts to win health care reform, I have a daughter with a genetic disorder. So it’s personal to me. And I was always upset or irritated, I guess you would say by mass shootings, when they happened, you had the shooting at the Aurora movie theater. I was thinking the other day, I was reading about it on my phone while I was standing in line at the movie theater to see the Batman movie, my gosh, and going into the theater, really freaked out looking at Okay, where would I go? What would I do? I’d never really done that before. So that was the first hint. But then when Newtown happened, my daughter who was in kindergarten at the time, so basically the same age of those children was in the hospital having some minor surgery the morning that it happened, and being there and then scrolling through my phone and seeing the death toll, you know, to 410 1214, I just, this can’t go any higher, and it kept going higher. So it was really on par with like a nine event 911 event to me. And I was shattered by it absolutely shattered. It was almost as if someone had died in my family, I can’t really explain it. And I think what happened in the, you know, week, 10 days following that, a lot of folks like Hillary and myself and some other folks here in Texas, we kind of found each other online. And, you know, was like, let’s pull our resources, let’s do something. And let’s get together and do something about this. But I do have to say one thing, your poem was beautiful. You are the hope? Hi, this is why I do this. Because that generation is going to be the one that will solve this. I have no doubt we just have to get there.

Jeremi Suri 7:43
Right. And that’s why we do this podcast, our generation of millennials and Generation Z. citizens. Those are the people listening to us right now. That’s why we’re here. And I think the question that I get all the time from students and people I meet when I’m traveling around the country and talking to different groups is, why does this happen in the United States? We don’t seem like horrible people. But yet, we have more mass shootings, the United States than the rest of the world combined. What why what what what’s causing this?

Hilary Rand Whitfield 8:15
Yeah, this, this is a uniquely American problem. The reason is that it’s just far too easy for people who want to do harm, to get their hands on a gun. For decades, the gun lobby has been very effective silently, without anyone really noticing at dismantling all of our gun laws. And this is what has resulted. It’s and, and but the hope for me is that if this, you know came about because our policies have been dismantled. Our solution is that we can we can build those policies back up and get back to a place of, you know, where we don’t have to, you know, accept the unacceptable. Yes,

Jeremi Suri 9:02
right. And do you do you agree, because most of most politicians, and you like Hillary work with a lot of politicians, most politicians are not most many politicians will deny that they’ll say it’s about mental health, and that it’s about video games. And what’s your response? I was just gonna say a video game never killed anyone and and

Ed Scruggs 9:23
you know what you’re hearing? It’s just poppycock. Let’s put it that way. It’s really they’re just making they’re just grasping at reasons. Everyone knows the reason any half intelligent person knows. The reason is that in America, if your intent is to do harm or do evil, we make it easier for you. Now, the, you know, for example, with the video game argument, they played the same games we play in Japan, and England, and Canada, and Germany, and Sweden, and all over the world. They have mental health issues all over the world. What’s the one thing missing from those countries is a gun for every person, right? So that that argument that they’re using, and that was used by the President yesterday, for example, I just sense now, it’s not holding water with anyone but a firm hardcore base. And that’s good. But I think when you get to the real cause of why we’re here, we have a completely broken political system. It just does not work, we we have an inability to deal with the big issues. And what you have is folks like us on the outside trying to force force the system to work in a sense. And it’s been really hard when we first started this, I never thought that years later, we would still be here. But we are still here. And there’s more of us than ever. But we just have to keep fighting for our system to be able to work.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 10:59
Well, you know, what’s interesting is that, you know, remember when we first started, nobody wanted to talk to us. Now. We’re not even progressive, you know, lawmakers, really they because it gun violence prevention used to be the third rail of politics. nobody talked about it, nobody wanted to touch it. Because the ethos is that, you know, the NRA holds too much power. And if we speak out against what the NRA is selling, you know, me the lawmaker, I will be you know, I’ll lose my my position. But it’s only been six years, almost seven now. And there has been a tangible shift in that kind of, of culture. And, you know, we’re not there yet. Certainly. But you know, we just we saw in the last election in 2018 people running on a gun violence prevention arm as their number one issue, right and winning. Right. And that would, I never would have imagined that was possible when we first started. That’s true. So changes how happening, it’s happening slowly. And it’s happening kind of out of the limelight of national news. But it’s a ground swell. And and we the more people that join us the the more inevitable change becomes,

Jeremi Suri 12:16
and what are the effective arguments and moving people because it does appear sometimes that there are more people who sympathize. And then when it comes to making their votes in the legislature, yeah, Governor of Texas being one example, who supports red flag laws until it actually comes before the legislature and then doesn’t support it. Right. So so what what are the arguments that seem to be shifting the ground?

Hilary Rand Whitfield 12:42
Well, I mean, with some of the lawmakers that are in office right now, I’m not sure any arguments are going to shift what they do, but that are shifting, you know, public sentiment and understanding I you know, it’s gun violence isn’t inevitable. There are measures that are proven to to help reduce gun deaths, there’s red flag laws, which what those do is through due process, if someone is kind of seeming to be a passable danger to themselves or others, loved ones can petition a court to investigate whether or not that person should be able to have the ability to purchase a gun or hold on to guns that they already own. And it’s a very, you know, vetted process people worried like, Oh, well, my, you know, Second Amendment rights are going to be taken away by something like that. And that’s not how it works. In reality, it’s actually a very effective way of, of managing a situation temporarily, to, to make sure that that the person doesn’t do harm to themselves or others. Also, closing the background check loophole, it’s far too easy for someone to go and purchase a gun outside of a federally licensed dealer at a gun show or now online, right. And, and get their hands on a gun when they already are prohibited from being able to purchase one. So so those are common sense measures. And when you talk to average Americans, everybody agrees like oh, yeah, well, we should be doing 90% by doing that, but it’s those politicians that still have the gun lobby, the gun manufacturers whispering in their ear, that will never, not never are having a very hard time. Coming to, to, to grips with with the reality that, that that’s where we inevitably need to go

Jeremi Suri 14:44
and add on that point. What What is it that’s allowed gun manufacturers to become so powerful? I mean, there are lots of lobbying groups in the US, including moms, right. Why for so long? Maybe it’s changing thanks to Hillary’s work and others. Why were the gun manufacturers was able to get more years of members of Congress and the Texas Legislature than the mom. So you think.

Ed Scruggs 15:06
Well, I think they figured out quite a while ago, I’m back in the 70s. When they changed from kind of a sporting safety organization into a political organization. They figured out how to lobby, they were well connected. And they soon figured out as our laws on campaign finance reform or dismantled, they, they figured out who to funnel the money to and how much and so when I say they bought a certain number of representatives, I mean, that’s just the truth they did. And so and you see it here in Texas, still, every legislative session, don’t vote for that, or you will have a primary opponent, and it scares republicans half to death. So in a state like Texas, they still hold hold a great deal of power. But I think another thing that has also helps cement all this is the gerrymandering gerrymandering of legislative districts, especially here in Texas. So you may have, for example, a Republican Representative in West Texas, and he may have a safe seat, but it’s gerrymandered in a way where the people that come out to his town halls are 80%, very much pro gun rights. And these are folks that when I say pro gun rights, that’s really an underestimation. There are folks here in Texas that see the right to bear arms as a religious right. And they have actually connected it to the Bible. In some ways. They believe that Jesus spoke to Thomas Jefferson and the founders and helped write the Declaration of Independence. I’m not kidding, I wish I was kidding. They come to hearings at the state capitol, wearing their firearms, sometimes two or three at a time dressed in camo, they bring machetes, they have knives they have you wouldn’t believe it, really, you would have to be there to see it. And the representatives and those districts have they swear them to uphold their right to do all these things. And sometimes I’ve wondered what are they really intimidated? Are? Are they part of the group? I don’t know. But it is very, in Texas, specifically very, very hard for to get some of those folks to move. So we have a double problem. We have corruption in the system. And then we have a corrupted the system at its core, which is gerrymandering. So that’s why as Hillary spoke, we have seen great movement in the populace. And in a system that worked, we would have had changed by now. So for an example of how much shift we’ve had when Hillary and I worked on a rally that we held right after Newtown, that we worked to put on State Capitol and we worked hard, we did everything we could. And we got 250 people to show up. And we were actually pretty happy with us. We’re told that as a good number. But then last year, after Parkland, we had 20,000 people show up. Yeah. So that she gives you an intro education on how these events keep happening, and it is sinking in. So I just wonder how long that wall can hose that’s holding us back? Yeah, well,

Hilary Rand Whitfield 18:09
let me just say to your, you know, part of that wall, I think is is because, you know, just America in general is so divided. And yes, today. And and I think what really needs to happen is that the folks who have those representatives who are still very entrenched against the idea of common sense, gun violence prevention measures, they need to hear from from those constituents, they need to hear from the people that they represent. And and, you know, while the the numbers show, the polls show that the vast majority of Americans agree on these, these measures, a very small percentage of people actually speak out.

Ed Scruggs 18:53
That’s true.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 18:54
And, and so the silent majority is for these changes. But that, you know, lawmakers don’t want to hear from enemy. They want to hear from you, the person who’s never spoken to your your lawmaker before, because otherwise they assume that you don’t care. Right.

Ed Scruggs 19:14
And I can add on that now. It’s even more important, as we’ve seen the events of this past week with El Paso and with Dayton but El Paso which was essentially a race based terrorist attack. Yes, that’s what the guys calling it on our own people. I think it’s the worst, most deadly attack in the modern era on Latin American people and immigrants and Hispanic people in the United States. It’s something I can’t even envision. And it leads me back to your poem. You grew up knowing this your whole life, Hillary, and I remember when this didn’t happen, right? And so that, it just crushes me that that’s the world you’re growing up in. But now is the time for everyone to stand up. And I think you’re seeing more people, I believe, I’m going to paraphrase Martin Luther King, basically, if you stand on the sidelines, you’re as guilty as the policeman with the dog or the fire hose. Right? Because if you don’t get off the line and do something now, it could be you. It could be your parents, it could be your best friend, it could be your spouse, Hillary and I know too many people that this has happened to they never thought it would be them. But it is that sure. And and I you know, unless we do something soon, we’re just going to continue to see this and it will continue to amp up and you’re wondering how much worse can it get? I don’t want to find out.

Jeremi Suri 20:34
Right. Silence has murderous consequences. And there’s no doubt that before 1966 mass shootings were almost unheard of in the United States. The the shooting on this campus at UT in 1966 is considered one of the first mass shootings in all of American history. So there’s nothing genetic about Americans that makes these shootings inevitable. There’s something about what we’ve done as a society since the 1960s. Yeah,

Hilary Rand Whitfield 20:58
well, and and you know, mass shooting are actually a very small percentage of our gun violence problem. Less than 1% I think of gun deaths happen through mass shootings. And so while mass shootings are abhorrent and unconscionable. It’s the daily drumbeat, yes, of gun violence that that happens in our cities and domestic homes are absolutely domestic abuse. So much of it stems from domestic violence. And then there’s city gun violence. I mean, there’s there’s so there’s so much gun violence going on, that doesn’t get reported.

Jeremi Suri 21:39
Right. Right.

Ed Scruggs 21:40
It’s almost impossible to cover it all.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 21:41
It’s 100 gun deaths a day.

Jeremi Suri 21:43
It’s crazy.

Ed Scruggs 21:44
And I’m sorry, go ahead. Okay, I was just gonna say is this this, those other deaths outside of mass shootings, you know, two thirds, almost two thirds of all gun deaths in the United States are suicides. So these are people that are, they’re kind of going through the our own private hell. And that’s the way they’re choosing domestic violence. A woman I believe living in a home with a firearm minute is three to four times more likely to be murdered five times, keeps going up five times more likely to be murdered. We have far too many children and young people finding unsecured firearms in the home that are loaded. I think that’s gone up because the number of firearms have gone up. And, you know, Texas leads the nation and the number of children that have killed other children, my almost always by accident. So it is pervasive at all levels of society now, and and one thing I will say that is helping us know, is technology and people are activated on this. So a lot of times when these things happen, we know about it, right? Find out about it. Right? And that’s another thing that’s going to help Right, exactly.

Zachary Suri 22:56
Yeah, we talked about, um, about why this is happening in America. But But why is this happening now? Because we talked about how it’s been going on for a long time. But why is it suddenly ramped up? I mean, we talked about the shootings that happened in the tower just just right above us. But these these, but these shootings have become ever more common. And why is that?

Ed Scruggs 23:20
Wow. I think it’s a combination of things.

I really do believe at my core part of this has to do with the changing demographics of America, I think there is a racial element of it, involved in it. Think we also had in the 60s 70s and 80s, very turbulent economic times, we had a lot of people out of work, we had drugs and the drug trade. And now I think, unfortunately, one of the things that helps us hurts us technology and the internet. And, and, and no established fact that there so you can have, you can be the strangest, oddest person around, and you can find validation on the internet. And it is truly just like an El Paso case with a Chan and some of these other sites, goading people into doing this. And you remember, you’re a kid, if your parents say, No, clean up your room, clean up your room, eventually you’ll do it or for some. Sometimes you give in to peer pressure. And I think online some of these folks deal with this. And, and but yeah, again, the key factor, though, is that in the United States, we give our people intent to do harm, we make it easy for them to act out. Other countries don’t do that. So that’s that’s my theory.

Jeremi Suri 24:48
And there’s there’s no doubt just to put another element into this right that President Obama’s time in the White House was a time when there was a massive increase in the number of weapons purchased, sure, in particular color by white Americans living in particular parts of the country. Sure. And so there is some racial element that that’s hard to deny.

Ed Scruggs 25:08
Yeah. So now, of course, mass shootings were going on, even before Obama and during the Obama administration. It’s just something now that’s continued to ramp up. And it’s just now getting particularly heinous with a lot of, you know, politically charged involvement in it. Which, you know, it’s just kind of following that dark line.

Jeremi Suri 25:27
Hillary, your thoughts?

Hilary Rand Whitfield 25:28
Well, I mean, personally speaking, I look to the fact that our social safety nets have kind of been dismantled over time. And our health care system absolutely needs, you know, complete overhaul, people aren’t getting the health care that they need. I mean, people are desperate in a lot of ways, and are not finding that the security that they need to be able to life liberty and pursuit of happiness, you know, that. So So? So I think they are looking to the internet for validation and support, and you’re getting radicalized in some ways. So, so so mass shootings, you know, I think and there is a maybe a copycat factor

a little bit, you know, people

what I’m glad, which makes me glad for the for the no notoriety movement, right, and that I’ve seen media outlets now not naming the shooter or not, you know, giving them that

Jeremi Suri 26:26
don’t make this person.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 26:27
Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Jeremi Suri 26:29
Yeah, exactly. Well, I know, you’ve both been been careful not to also comment on the elephant in the room, which is the the presence of certain politicians who have perhaps used words, maybe in a sloppy way or maybe intentionally to encourage hatred and division in ways that may be unintentionally or intentionally, have encouraged this kind of violence. Certainly the words that our leaders us at all levels matter matter.

Ed Scruggs 26:57
Absolutely. When I would think you mentioned sloppy, I think that’s a really good definition. In the internet age communication has become sloppy. And so what politicians do is they try to find key words that ignite Yes. and activate. Yes, like invasion, like invasion, infestation, rats, you name it. And in you, you find the words that he uses, I mean, he someone that research this, or maybe it’s just his intuition, but it does work, it gets people chatting. I honestly don’t believe that his intent was to see things like this happen. But sure it’s had it has had an effect. There’s no doubt on that. And you can at least make the argument that’s certainly not helping. Right, in any sense, right.

Jeremi Suri 27:41
So So what do we do about this? I mean, you both of you are working so hard, and so creatively, to change the conversation. So we’re not talking about rats. And so many of our listeners, I think, shares accuracy, so eloquently expressed a sense of powerlessness, frustration, and maybe their voices are not being heard Hillary because they feel it doesn’t matter. How do we get the voices of our listeners who will share your concerns to be more involved? And how can they make a difference? Starting today, not waiting for elections four years from now? How can they How can they make a difference?

Hilary Rand Whitfield 28:18
Sure, well, the first thing I would say is that you don’t let all of that noise discourage you, that is what all of the things that are happening it you know, the talking heads on on TV, and we need to break through that the individual has so much more power than they think. And and you can think of it like you know, drops in the ocean eat the ocean is created by individual drops of water. So so each person needs to realize that their voice matters, and and use it to speak out and and tell their lawmakers and tell their friends, their peers, their their family members, you know, people who you don’t think necessarily agree with you on this on the subject. They certainly might, you know, we we talked about Moms Demand Action, we were one issue organization, we don’t all agree on everything. But we agree on this, we agree that America needs to do much more to protect its citizens from this daily gun violence that were plagued with, we can do so much more. So So I would say especially to young people, you know, find your voice and use it, talk to your peers, organize your peers, we actually I’ll do a plug for our students Demand Action Group that came into being after the Parkland shooting, it’s been so inspiring to see students from across the country, you know, coming together, and not taking it anymore. So so you if you’re interested in joining students Demand Action, you can text the word students to 64433 to find out more information about the group and to start a group near you. So So don’t don’t let the Don’t let

Don’t let the talking heads get you down.

And and this is a grassroots movement, and we you know, enough pressure over enough time, forces change.

Jeremi Suri 30:21
I do think it matters when people call their members of Congress.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 30:24
It’s to every time, it matters, every time it’s a drop in the bucket, they count those calls, and they count your emails. It’s It’s so important. And even if it feels ridiculous to call every day and say the same exact thing. It matters because folks on the other side, the folks that that Ed was talking about earlier who show up to you know, hearings at the Capitol and their camera with their multiple firearms. They call every day they sure do. And, and they just because their little the loudest, though, doesn’t make them the majority. But it doesn’t the mind of lawmakers

Ed Scruggs 30:58
very well, I’ll tell you what, you know, I’m taken to this mantra lately, when when you how to deal with this. Three words, act, organize vote, act, is become aware of what’s going on, in men how much you don’t like this, and just begin to speak out not you don’t have to go on to a rally or on TV, just speak out with your friends with your family, etc. And it can just be Look, I don’t like that. I don’t appreciate their being so many guns in the home or, you know, I don’t really think it’s funny to watch violent movies or you know, things like that. So, so just speak out, then organize, which is there are now so many groups, there’s moms, there’s Texas gun sense their students Demand Action, there’s march for our lives, become involved, look at their pages, look at what they do, there’s a variety of things that you can do. And it’s really for any personality type fear person that doesn’t want to march in the streets, you can make phone calls, or you can help volunteer in some other way. And all of this networking comes together eventually. And then you get to the election. And then that’s when the one thing you absolutely must do every time and every election is vote. And my theory is that from the President of the United States on down to city council, gun violence is an issue, every single elected official in this country can do something about it, they may not have the power to do many things. But they can do some things. And they do have a view on gun violence and how to tackle it. And part of making this a priority issue when you vote is asking them how they feel about race. Right. And I believe me, I’ve done I’ve asked local officials, county officials, etc, how they feel about and I’ve been surprised at some of their answers. And that kind of changed my view of whether I would vote for them. So those three things together. But ultimately, that was I mentioned earlier, young people, you have different freedom, you have the freedom to basically speak out any way that you want, your view is not formed, you may be influenced by your parents or your environment. But you have the independence at your age, to make your own decisions and decide who you’re going to be. So now is a great time to decide what you’re going to stand up for. And because once you make that decision, no one’s going to knock you off that. And you’re going to be very, very strong for generations to come. That’s my poems like yours, for example, are very important. That’s why the march for our lives movement is so important, because those are the leaders of our future. And that’s how I think we’re going to get out of this trap that we’re in.

Jeremi Suri 33:43
Exactly is that persuasive to?

Zachary Suri 33:46
Yeah, I think young people are really, really engaged in this issue, because I think it’s something that really affects really affects their lives. And I think part of the power of, of the way that mass shootings are displayed in the media idea is that is that everyone can connect with the people in them. Everyone can imagine themselves going shopping at Walmart on a Saturday morning. But it’s a lot harder for people to imagine themselves in a situation with individual gun violence if they don’t own a gun. But I think the the power of mass shootings to motivate us and to create action, we should take advantage of that so that we can make real change in our country.

Jeremi Suri 34:27
Are you optimistic?

Zachary Suri 34:28
Yeah, I think there’s going to be change, I think, I think it’s going to take longer than we want. Because I think we need we need to, we need the older generation to step aside. And that younger people come through and,

Hilary Rand Whitfield 34:41
and inevitably, that will happen. Yeah,

Zachary Suri 34:43
when they die.

Ed Scruggs 34:45
I agree with you. I think a lot of us do need to step aside. Because we can’t compete with your energy and your commitment, you know, some of us. But when that day comes, when we step aside, I’m very confident we’re going to be in really good hands. So it’s just one one thing you’ll find when it comes to political power. People hold on to it with their fingernails until their last died. Yeah, that’s why sometimes people are far ahead of politicians. And when

Jeremi Suri 35:12
we are politically, this is an old story in American history of our political institutions changing much more slowly that our citizen body does. As Thomas Jefferson himself said, democracy is a tree that renews itself from generation to generation. But it takes a while for those roots to actually sprout. And we’re in that we’re in that moment right now. Thank you, Hillary and Ed, for sharing your knowledge, your insights, your energy, and thank you for all that you do to inspire us every day. And Zachary, thank you for your amazing poem and for being part of this generation that is going to change and renew our democracy. That’s why we’re here and that’s why this is democracy. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 35:59
This part cast is produced by the liberal arts development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison lumpy, and you can find his music at Harrison lemke.com.

Hilary Rand Whitfield 36:13
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